Carrie Ann

But what he's also missing is that this really isn't something Diggle does that much. Yes, he supports Oliver, and encourages him to be better. But I think he comes at it from a more pragmatic perspective (see his continuing to advise him not to tell Thea, among other things), where Felicity definitely comes from more of an emotional, human perspective. So if Diggle had said something like this to Laurel, I would still have rolled my eyes and been pissed off, but because he looks at things from a more detached position much of the time, I might have been more willing to dismiss it as a misread of the situation. Also, because of that detached position, I think Diggle looks at someone like Laurel and thinks, well, she wants to do this. Whatever happens is on her. Where Felicity and Oliver are, and have always been, more cautious and concerned about people getting into situations they can't handle, so Felicity pushing Laurel out before she's ready reads as OOC to me. Anyway, MG does this a lot--he derails conversations about women and feminist issues by bringing up men. Awhile back someone linked to a tweet of his, and I looked at the whole conversation, which was basically a back-and-forth with a woman who was calling him out on the fridging we've talked about here. Specifically, the number of women who have died--on and off-screen--in order to propel heroes' journeys, and the ways those characters were killed on their knees, or in other non-fighting-back ways, where male characters often die fighting and don't really die at all. MG ignored all of those good points and instead said, "I notice you're leaving out Tommy, because it doesn't fit your argument," and then he blocked the user. Like...that is a classic avoid and derail. Ditto with the Diggle response.

Yes, exactly. You don't get to just list out all the problems you created in this failure of a hero's journey and then basically ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and move on like you actually FIXED the problems. You didn't. She still became a superhero, fully competent, after a few weeks in the field and a few months of boxing lessons, with zero of the moral fiber you want to claim.

I may have sent a super snotty question to MG on Tumblr about this last night. I honestly never ever try to interact with people like that, and I half-wish I could delete the question now, but eh. If he answers it, it would only be in the affirmative and I'll be relieved to know that there will be actual consequences. But unless Quentin pulls a pretty abrupt turn, it doesn't appear that he's angry with Laurel for keeping the secret. So whatever happens, it won't be satisfying to me.

I definitely don't think Dig or Felicity would be written out of the show unless the actors wanted out. But what I think is happening is that they are becoming tertiary characters--the way Thea and Roy used to be, for example--and I think that's what's really eating at me. This "evolving" really means a structural change in the show that leaves my favorite characters and relationships getting short-shrift. And I don't see that improving--particularly for Diggle. They say they've "struggled with" not having Dig in the field--that struggle only exists because their priority is on having BC in the field. And Roy, TBH. That is not going to change. It's only going to get worse as the focus shifts more to make this a "true ensemble." Felicity is in a better situation because she's the love interest, currently for two characters, and because she serves a plot function that no one else can. But even for her, having more minutes on screen does not equal having focus. This season, I have no complaints about her screentime, but I have many many complaints over her story and her lack of development. She is being used to prop up two heroes, and again, I don't see that changing. She will get an episode or two tossed her way per season, because fans will demand it, but it feels pretty clear we're moving in a direction that will put costumed heroes at the top of the hierarchy.

Other than KC resenting her positioning as Canary last season--which she has admitted, if not in those words, so I'm not just being a hater here--I don't think there's anyone involved with Arrow who has a problem with Caity Lotz. But yeah, I think that the EPs had no idea how much people would love Sara, or they misjudged how much people would love Sara INSTEAD of Laurel. That they would always compare the two, and that Laurel would come up wanting in every category. So I do kind of feel like there's an undercurrent of resentment at the character. (I get that feeling about OG Team Arrow too. That MG sort of resents how much people love the trio, and don't love his precious costumes.) Anyway. This felt very similar in tone to what Joss Whedon wanted to do with Tara in Season 7. He wanted Amber Benson to come back to play an evil FakeGhost version of Tara, who would end up tormenting Willow. And Amber refused to do it, because she personally felt it would be wrong to exploit Tara in that way, and a cruel thing to do to the fans. She was right. Caity would have been right to refuse this bullshit too, and it's too late now, but I hope she refuses all offers going forward.

That's an argument of semantics. I'm talking about decisions Felicity made, in the orbit of Laurel, not in her relationship with Laurel. Better? I don't think it's possible to talk about a character, specifically, without talking about how they interact with the other characters.

Yeah, the ending of this one basically made me sick, but at least it was in a way that I understand from a character perspective. It was a huge mistake, on a human level, and possibly on a leadership level too. I mean, I saw Lexa's argument, but I'm not sure it was airtight. And it's a wash anyway, because Jasper, Monty, Miller and the others are already fighting back. Mt Weather knows there is a problem inside their walls now. So I look forward to seeing what this does to Clarke, and I have to imagine it will further derail her relationship with Bellamy--did she think Octavia was down there? I know she saw her with Lincoln in the end but wasn't sure whether she knew O had gotten out beforehand. Otherwise, damn, I hate those Mt Weather assholes. It was pretty satisfying to see Dr Cylon bite it. And I'm glad Lincoln is alive and semi-well. I was convinced he was a goner when he went off with Bellamy. Now I think he'll last all the way until the end of the season! ;)

Guys. We have to talk about Felicity. I'm gonna personally skip anything to do with her interactions with Oliver and just focus on how the show is twisting her for Laurel. For LAUREL. Not for Ray or to stall Olicity. But for Laurel. Guys. She took voice recordings of Sara--procured from who knows where? Voicemails? Home video of her, before the Gambit? And made a voice modulator for Laurel to use to fool her father into believing his beloved baby daughter was still alive. Felicity did that. Without hesitation. Without regret, that we've seen. She did that. Tonight, she basically said Sara was a being of darkness, who was sort of an accidental hero, but not out there for the right reasons. Not as good as Heavenly Laurel, Full of Light. Felicity said that. About her friend. A woman she loved, who saved her life, whose life she saved. Who went out to protect women on the streets and went after the men who hurt them just because she thought it was wrong. Who took Sin under her wing because she was alone too. Sara believed she didn't have the light inside her, but she did. That was the point. She didn't believe it about herself, but it was clear to anyone else around her that she had demons but was still full of goodness. Felicity of all people should have seen that, but apparently she thinks Sara was just a lost cause all along, and Laurel has a real chance to improve on the original. I said this earlier in the season, but it is very clear to me now. There is a limit of how many times you can claim out-of-character before you just accept that the character isn't the same anymore. And I've reached that limit. It's not just these two things--I've been unhappy with many things related to Felicity this season. But this Sara bullshit is what's put me over the edge. If I thought, for even a moment, that it was intentional--that the writers see this as wrong, and that there is a lesson coming, it would mitigate it. I like my characters to be flawed, but you know, those flaws have to be recognized as such. And that's not what's happening here. They think Felicity is perfect as she is, that she is bulletproof, and so they are using her to prop their two biggest failure characters. And in the process, they've completely sold her out, and I have no interest in what they do with her until at least 318.

Also, wow, really looks like Laurel's gonna have hell to pay from her father for lying to him for months, huh?

This went down in basically my worst case scenario way. Felicity had to tear Sara down in order to build Laurel up--the true mark of a shitty character. I actually left the room during that scene, and I won't ever watch it again. I heard the light thing, and that was that. As for Oliver and Ghost Sara, well. Once again, this is such a failure of a character, that they need to pull in everyone and their dead sister to give her a stamp of approval, just so they can tick all their boxes of viewer complaints. Apparently, nah, which is absolutely INSANE to me. This is purely lying for the sake of plot at this point, because she already (currently, who knows about next week) hates Malcolm, knows everything else--why don't you just tell her the hard thing? So that she understands what the stakes truly are here? Agreed. Again, it was worse than I could have even imagined. I'm horrified by what this show did to Sara, what they forced Caity Lotz to do. I hope she follows Susannah Thompson's lead and tells them where they can shove their big plans for her flashbacks in the future. In previous weeks when people have debated whether to watch the episode, I've still come down on the side of watching it, because there are important moments, or something redeeming. And it's not that this one didn't have that--the stuff with Oliver, Thea, and Roy was actually good, and pretty satisfying. But everything else was so truly terrible, and heartbreaking on a Fan level, that I implore you to skip it if you haven't seen it yet. I totally feel you on your last statement--I haven't been this involved in a fandom since 2006. I don't know what it was exactly, but this show hit something for me. And it's really hard, but I have that feeling I've had before when I fell out of love with a series. I think this one is done for me. As I've said before, the best I can hope for now is a better Season 4, but at this point, I'm not sure I'll be here for it at all. This episode clarified the show's priorities, and the shortcuts it's willing to take to get there, and I don't expect I'll enjoy it again until the very end of the season, if then, and I'm pretty positive I'll never love it like I once did. It's a bummer.

Assuming Sara doesn't actually get LP'd this season, I honestly hope Caity Lotz tells them to shove it if they ever want her back. She deserves better than this. And Sara deserves better than to be twisted up just to prop Laurel. She already died for her. Isn't that enough?

Ray who? If Laurel hasn't shared a scene with him, KC is probably not aware he's even on the show, let alone keeping track of his story. What's funny is how hard the show is working to make KC happy, and make Laurel happen, and it's like KC just sees that as her due, and expects all that and more. She wants every bit of what she thought she was getting when the show started, and nothing will dissuade her. There are some actors out there who want a challenge; who want to go where the story takes them; who want to go to the tough places. But not her. She made it quite clear that she hated all that stuff last season and was just gritting her teeth until she got that jacket. I have two dealbreakers with this show: Lauriver Part 3, and Oliver no longer being the solo lead. If it appears that either of those things are going to come to pass when this season ends, I'm out.

Off of the laughable L/O/F non-triangle for a minute, do any of you think it's possible that SA really does want to lighten his episode/time commitment to the show so he can do movies or something? And that they're using this season as a transitional season, so that next year, he's not even necessarily in every episode? That seems insane to me, but...so does every other decision they're making if the purpose is NOT to lessen his screentime.

Thanks for taking the hit and reading those interviews. I'm watching this ep with a glass of wine on one side and a wastebasket on the other.

So MG referred to big wholesale changes when asked about changes to Oliver's suit. Is he...going to prison? Joining the LoA full-time? Quitting the Arrow thing?

Yep.

I did not know how badly I wanted Donna/Quentin until today. But now I just really want it. No killing Quentin, show!

I know...I was like, guess people aren't being vocal enough? Doesn't seem possible. Although...I guess I don't feel jerked around, because I knew they weren't going to be together easily or anything. I just feel dissatisfied with the path they're choosing, and like it will end up dimming my interest in that relationship overall.

I'm screaming internally. <3 <3 <3

I could see that. That's the moment I jumped off the ship for good. She basically rolled her eyes when he said that he'd wanted it to be her or Damon who saved him. That was the end for me. Elena was truly horrible in S5. She's been marginally better in S6, but only after she lost her memories, and now I'm afraid she's slipping back into shitty mode. Throwing a party? "For" "Bonnie" "Because that's what she would want?" Give me a damn break. Bonnie would want you to stop worrying about your love life and get her the eff out of 1994. And even if Bonnie wouldn't actually think to suggest that, because she doesn't value herself enough, you as her friend should value her more. Make her a priority. I really do hope there are repercussions here that last longer than an episode or two. Bonnie is never allowed to stay mad at Elena, and it sucks.

A couple of options for dynamic-changing developments that I wouldn't hate: - The public finds out that OQ is the Arrow; or at least the police do. - The team splits--Roy and Laurel go their own way; Dig and Oliver stay together. (Not sure about Felicity--probably working for all of them somehow.) - A time jump that FF's all sorts of things--the R/F relationship, the development of R/R/T/L into more effective fighters, etc. (Would require no further crossovers this season, and would possibly eliminate the summer hiatus time jump.) (I keep bringing this up because I almost want it to happen, to avoid the hiatus jump.) - A reveal that Oliver has been a sleeper for ARGUS all along, unknowingly operating at Amanda's discretion. I just don't see how anything else we're talking about would change the dynamic of the show forever (because they couldn't be permanent--Oliver quitting or leaving, for example). Even something like bringing Tommy back just gives them another conflict to deal with. But it's probably something pretty minor (like introducing superpowers) and everyone involved with Arrow is just prone to hyperbole.

I am on record as being anti-CMM, but I felt a little tingle in that scene with Thompson and Angie. He seemed pretty charmed by her, and when she fell into him sobbing about her Grandma and asked his grandma's name, and he got a little swoony faced and said, "Gam-Gam." I don't know...I kinda ship it now.

I hated everything about the Linda/Barry/Iris stuff tonight. On all fronts. I was not a fan of Malese Jow when I saw her on TVD, but was hoping I'd like her more here. I don't. I don't feel any chemistry between Linda and Barry, which is fine because I know she's not a long-term love interest, so I don't particularly care about being convinced by their relationship. But I find Linda off-putting--which I know she's supposed to be, it's just kind of my least favorite character type. So there's that. And then Barry with that pepper. Ugh. Manipulating a girl into going out with you again is not a good look. And Iris. The telling Linda about Barry's feelings for another girl part was just kind of painful to watch, but I really really hated the first scene, where she was so shocked about Barry going out with Linda. "Oh, no, I think it's great!" It's textbook, exactly what you expect, and disappointing that the writers are taking the most cliched route, when they are so good at surprising in other areas. I really hope they tone this down, but in truth, I expect more of the same.

What they did with Iris tonight was just awful. Had it been one episode in the midst of others that were good for Iris, it wouldn't elicit much more than an eyeroll and a shrug from me. But instead, they've basically tanked this character since the midseason finale, and that is really concerning for the rest of the season/series. I just truly don't understand how this group of writers has learned nothing from their brother show, and how they continue to make the same mistakes in both places. That's a bigger discussion, and one that belongs in the Relationships thread probably, so I'll stick to Iris here. She absolutely should have been on this Firestorm story--that is the logical thing for her character to do. It's the perfect way for her to be involved in this story, and the writers completely ignored it. Why? Because Iris is not a priority to them. Period. It was a bigger priority to give her those Screenwriting 101 Jealous Girl scenes, because that's what they needed for Barry's story. All the characters aside from Barry are underserved in certain ways, and that makes sense because he's the lead. But Iris is the one who feels like a problem, because the others serve a function on the show (I'm talking about Caitlin, Cisco, Wells, and Joe here). Iris's main function is to be Barry's love interest right now, and her journalism stuff is not critical to the plot of the show. Because the writers aren't making it critical. They need to do that. And they need to drop this jealousy thing right now. Kill it with fire.

I missed this convo earlier, so sorry to go back, but I agree and disagree with this. I agree that the full burden of the consequences and the guilt should have been on Laurel. This was her decision, and no one else seemed to agree with her. But the fact is that the show made them all go along with it, for months, and then they made it worse, by making them all take an active part in the ruse. And since they did that, I want them all to pay. Otherwise, it tells me that the writers don't realize how disgustingly over the line that was. I wish it weren't the case, because I wish it had never happened. But because it did, he has every right to cut ties with them all. But also, Laurel deserves to feel the full extent of the damage from her terrible decision. And if part of that is that she caused a rift between Quentin and four other people he knew and trusted, then she deserves to bear the weight of that too. And the team deserves to face some consequences for supporting Laurel, in one way or another. I doubt the show will play it that way, but I can choose to read it that way.