Carrie Ann

No, I think you were clear @apinknightmare, just seemed like people were treating it like it was confirmed that that was the title. I think we just confirmed that the title is probably 11 or 12 characters, including spaces. :) (Those are wide M's so if the title doesn't contain M's, it could be longer than 11 characters.) (WOW we are desperate for something to pique our interest and give us hope for the season, huh?)

Sorry--I'm confused. That is an image from Tumblr that a fan made? So they just put in the words Post Mortem and they fit, but so could any number of things that share the same number of characters, right?

Ugh, Season 5 really was the worst. I think I'd blocked out how bad it really was, but man, it was awful. Even then I was sort of holding out hope that all the badness had a purpose--that there was some twist coming that would make it better in retrospect, but it never came. I am glad that the writers have recovered somewhat this year, and that we had a few Defan moments, because the way that relationship was demolished in S4 and 5 was really the hardest to take. I got over Stelena, but I never got over the fact that they made it a priority to give Delena TWO big, long goodbye scenes in the S5 finale and not even a moment was given to Stefan and Damon. Fitting for the rest of the season though.

I honestly don't think Stephen has a problem with the show, even this season. He often notes that people need to be patient, trust the writers, etc., and I don't think that's just him trying to be politic. He knows the full season plan, so things that are frustrating or don't seem to make sense to the audience just don't bother him because he knows where it's all leading, and he's still fully sold on that. (The problem is that I think the writers, in this case, have lost the ability to see the forest for the trees. They're so focused on their big moments, or their endgame, or the act breaks, that they are simply writing to get to those points and not noticing what a rough ride it is along the way. Like so many people have pointed out, they're writing backwards. So it's still a satisfying story to them, and they're still excited about it, but ONLY because they know where it's going. The rest of us don't have that luxury, and we may not agree that the ends justify the means anyway.) I do suspect that it bothers Stephen that former cheerleaders of the show--critics and fans--are sending a pretty consistent message of disappointment with the season. But, like I said, I feel like he still believes in the story the show is telling, and that people will come around and agree in the end that it was all really brilliant. I don't. But I still, stupidly, hope for a better Season 4, and SA is a big reason for that. I appreciate the work he puts in to make the show great, and how much he cares about that. I love this precious cast, minus one or two, and I want them to be happy and successful and I want to enjoy them on my screen again.

Right??? I'd be like, OK, let's apply for some permits and put an expansion on the carriage house and we'll all live together and never leave Lavon or his pastries or his lake or his beautiful house.

I kind of wonder whether Oliver's going to quit his own team for a bit. Next episode is flashback-heavy and he's on Lian Yu. 315 is this Nanda Parbat thing, and also where he actually trains with Malcolm apparently, so he could be mostly occupied with that, and then end up in NP at least by the end. Ditto for 316, The Offer. We know he's in Starling for 317, at least in time for the wedding--which also shows that he's not completely like estranged from everyone during this time. I don't know. I could imagine him being like, she's not working down here. I won't support that. And then his team is like, well, we're going to, so.... And then he just starts doing his own thing, intersecting with them, but not like normal, for awhile.

They said they're turning the attic of the carriage house into a nursery, so I assume they're moving in together there. That's Zoe's place, right?

UGH that EW article made me ragey. Why can't I stop caring about this stupid show and wanting it to succeed? I am full of dread about the rest of the season. Whatever happens with Quentin, it won't be about him. It won't pay off for him. It will be in service of Laurel, so she can wallow in self-pity and use that to further fuel her SWF lifestyle. I hope he disowns her, honestly, and adopts Thea as his foster daughter instead. MG: "Over the course of episodes 10, 11, and 12, [Laurel] eventually won over every member of the team. They’re basically supporting Laurel’s journey to becoming the Black Canary in a time when Oliver is incredibly against it. I don’t want to spoil the end of the episode, but Oliver’s reaction to not just Laurel being the Black Canary, but his team’s apparent support of that makes up a bulk of his story arc for episode 13." Yes, Laurel won over every member of the team because you twisted them all into knots and forced them all to become deeply, deeply stupid in order to make that happen. So now Oliver's going to be pissed at the team for letting her in, as D/F are pissed at him for working with Merlyn, and all the team will take Laurel's side because we can't have Oliver ever be right about anything.

That whole Ray response was obnoxious. Oh, yes, seeing all the things the suit can do will be so "fun." I could not possibly care less about Ray. What a waste of time this whole thing has been. I really think that from 313 through at least 318, Felicity will be almost fully devoted to the Ray storyline. The Oliver/Felicity will be friends "of a sort" remark and the fact that basically everything to do with her is about Ray, while everything to do with Oliver takes him away from Starling, or attaches him to Merlyn...I think they're barely going to interact. I hate to sound so glum, but yeah. This happened around this time last season too, while we gave the show over to the Lance Family and Slade.

Prodigal Son?

It's a super trashy '90s movie where one woman becomes obsessed with another; she changes her entire look to copy her, starts interfering in her life to tie them closer together, then begins impersonating her, ultimately starts killing people in her life before trying to kill her. But, yeah, people just use it whenever someone starts taking on another person's look, style, etc.

Could Thea be training Laurel? Is this the ep where Laurel finds out that Thea killed Sara?

Oh, I think Nyssa might still be involved, and/or Tatsu. But someday, Oliver will probably train Laurel, yay.

315 is supposed to the be the game changer. Also, there was something newish in that interview--a big hint that Oliver will eventually train Laurel, which...makes me ill as a hater, but even fans of BC have been shouting NO about that from the rooftops from the get-go, right? Other than the shippers, I can't imagine BC fans being happy about her being trained by GA.

Well, that's really odd. That's three episodes in a row that he's not in, leaving eight in the season. I'm guessing he'll be in all of them, right?

You make a lot of good points in this post. For me, the Elena having to choose story of S3 was acceptable because it was actually a really brief period of time. If you take it from the moment Stefan first indicates that he even wants to be with her again, that's the very end of 318. She makes her choice in 322. The BS that happens in S4 is sire-bond adjacent, so it's tainted. But even there, she breaks up with Stefan in Ep 6 and never looks back. The worst stringing-along moment, for me, came in S5 when Stefan had amnesia and she relived their glory days. Like...let it go, lady. But I think, looking back, you can say that that was sort of out of her control and linked to the stupid, abhorrent doppelganger curse crap. Also, this is making me nostalgic for my Elena loving days of S1-3. Because in Season 3, I was firmly on Elena's side even though I loved Stelena, because Stefan was awful. Ripper Stefan was obviously horrible to her, but so was post-compulsion Stefan. Even after he stopped actively trying to hurt her, he was still very distant with her for the vast majority of the season. Stefan was a victim there too, to an extent, but I don't blame Elena a bit. She fell for another guy, unintentionally, while her boyfriend was gone and there was no way of knowing if he'd ever come back (literally, and then figuratively). It's like if he picked up a heroin habit and basically went off the radar or became another person for that time. It would be hard to stay in love with someone who no longer seems to exist. But she did; she just also fell in love with the person who was there, right by her side the whole time. I was on-board both ships up until 319, and then they just made Delena happen in a way I didn't like, and I Nope'd off of that ship for good. I wasn't happy with the rush job on either ship at the end of S3. With Stelena, the writers just seemed to peter out when it came to redeeming Stefan and making him earn his way back into that relationship. It lost a spark for me that it never regained, and I jumped off that ship for good in early S5. So I was shipless until I came around on Steroline and then the glory of Bamon this season (pouring one out for Bamon, RIP.)

I think we actually do agree here--in my other post, I took out a few examples of the places I thought Oliver did do things wrong to Felicity, and the not-quite-declarations-of-love were the biggest (the other thing was his coldness to her from 302-304, but there were mitigating circumstances). Mistakes were made, but the only thing that would make up for those is for him to grow and change his mind, and if she gives him another chance, make sure he never pulls that shit again. I don't see a lot of "work" that can be done in advance, especially if they get together pre-finale. So I'd rather they not even bother acting like he has to do work to earn Felicity back. He would need to change his mind, and express that (and have it reflected in some choices) and then she's going to have to take a risk with her heart.* Otherwise, this is another reason I'd be cool with them not being together at the end of season. Instead, they could end with us being aware that he's putting the pieces of his real life back together, and having a hint that Felicity is noticing. And then we go to hiatus with them friendly again. Then we can see the tentative steps back toward each other in S4. So we have an understanding that him just living his life differently over an extended period of time is what Felicity needs to trust him again. *I don't blame Felicity at all for not expressing her feelings this season--but yeah, the show basically took the imbalance of S1/2 and reversed or completely eliminated it. I wanted the imbalance addressed, in fact I'm sure I made posts in this thread from the summer to that effect, but not like this. And yeah, I do personally feel that holding all her feelings inside is the safer choice. It's her last measure of control, and I don't blame her for holding onto it with all her might. But I'd prefer it if they both have to take a leap to be together. It's more satisfying for me as a viewer, and like I said before, more interesting to examine that part of Felicity herself.

My goodness he is pretty. SHOW, please start letting your characters smile.

At this point, as much as I dread Ray and Felicity actually being together, and as sick as I already am of the Olicity discord, I actually wish they wouldn't get together this season. Because while I might disagree with the specifics here, I'm basically positive that this will be right, generally. So my guess is we would have, at best, four or five episodes with Oliver and Felicity mending fences and then actually getting together (probably in the penultimate ep, if not the finale). And then we'll skip five months of their relationship, and they'll probably just break up in 401 again, at this rate. Also, an important distinction for me: while I think Oliver has work to do to get back to being a whole person, I don't actually want to see him working to get Felicity. I've said this before, but I hate that dynamic. Oliver hasn't done much specifically wrong to Felicity. He's done and said things that have scared, frustrated, and disappointed her, and he's made decisions that mean they aren't together, but those aren't wrongs he's committed against her for which he must atone before receiving her grace again. Now he's doing this Malcolm thing, and yeah, it's a bad decision and it's changing Felicity's view of who he is. So realizing that error--and the basic fundamental problem underneath it--that is something I'd like to see him "work for." But not for her sake, and not so she can nod approvingly and tell him when he's mopped the floor to her liking. I'm not saying anyone here is asking for that either, but it's a common sentiment in fandom, and especially after a season of Felicity having to be the angry one walking off in a huff while Oliver looks sad or tired, the last thing I want is for their relationship to begin with that kind of dynamic. That is not what I want to see for them. In my dream world, Oliver sees her with Ray and internalizes that as having already lost her. I want him to start reclaiming a life for himself because he realizes he deserved it all along. So he starts trying to rebuild QC. He lets Thea or Laurel or whomever fight their own battles. He works on his other relationships. And in the meantime, the new relationship glow starts to dim and Felicity starts to doubt that there's enough there with Ray, realizes that she's in love with someone else, etc. What I used to love about O/F was how much they admired and respected each other, the instinctive way they took care of each other, the way they brought out the best in each other. If you set up the dynamic to be that Felicity is already perfect and Oliver is the only one who needs to get his shit together until she approves, then you create a power imbalance. And it also does a disservice to Felicity's character, who has issues and flaws and deserves to have those explored too, and do some growing of her own (and not only in the "look at how many superheroes she commands now!" vein).

I agree with your last point, but I do think she was talking about "things" being different both for Oliver generally, and for them possibly being together, when she referred to her "fantasizing." That she imagined he might, like you say, have gained a new perspective and appreciation for life, and also about what that would mean for them, since those two things are intertwined for Oliver. You're right that he's the one who says "you mean things between us," but she doesn't deny it or scoff at it or brush it aside. Her response is to say that before he left, the last thing he said was that he loved her. So I think it was sort of a tacit acknowledgment that, yes, she did partially mean that. But the next thing she says is that he came back talking about not only going back out on the same suicide mission, but this time to first train with this monster, and that told her that nothing has changed. Maybe part of the reason I think she was talking about their non-relationship is that this is when MG said we would be hearing from Felicity about her feelings. And that is so annoying, because we heard nothing about her feelings, and we're still not really clear what she was hoping for. All we know is that she now wants nothing to do with Oliver romantically. And also, MG can keep patting himself on the back for that terrible line of dialogue, but it apparently wasn't clear enough because there is a substantial portion of the audience misinterpreting it to mean that Felicity doesn't want to be a woman Oliver loves because terrible things have happened to those women, rather than to mean that if this is how he honors those women or shows his love, then she doesn't want that.

There's a lot of goalpost-moving going on in this discussion and I'm not even sure what the point of it is, so yeah, we should probably just end it here. I agree that there is an unhealthy element to both brothers' relationship with Elena--in the beginning, at the very least--because of Katherine. And I agree that Caroline offers a much healthier option for Stefan, one separate from any baggage, and I look forward to seeing them together.

Ha, yeah, I basically don't ship Klaus with anyone because he's awful, and has too much work in front of him in order to be worthy of anyone. Rebekah least of all. Incest issues aside, I don't see it as rapey, but the dynamic of their relationship is absolutely typical of domestic abuse. I mean, that's actually what it is, just in a sibling capacity instead of spousal. Ditto with Elijah. So I wouldn't actually want the show to go there with Klebekah (despite what I said in my quote up there)! I just think it's kind of cruelly ironic that he really has no chemistry with his two ostensible love interests (Cami/Hayley), but DOES have chemistry with both versions of Rebekah. Booooooooooooo. No fair. But Kolvina, I am HERE FOR. Well, the Daniel Sharman version of Kol, anyway. Not sure what the chemistry would be like with NB.

I'm not arguing that the show doesn't draw parallels between the doppelgangers, or show that there may be shared tendencies--that's what I said in my previous post. The show often plays with the theme of history repeating itself, and they sprinkle that with some supernatural stuff sometimes. I just don't think they're explicitly saying the doppelgangers are the same people with the same in-born personalities, and only turn out differently because of circumstances. I guess I've always read it more like an Orphan Black situation, and I'll spoiler this in case anyone's not familiar with the premise: I think it's meant to make you wonder about things like that--how would Katherine be different if she hadn't been forced to give up Nadia? How would Elena have turned out, if their positions were reversed?--but not meant to be taken literally. So yeah, Elena ended up in a triangle with Stefan and Damon, but her dynamic with both of them was completely different than Katherine's. For one, Elena never raped Stefan. And as much as there were charged moments with Damon in S1/2, for the most part, I think she tried to draw lines to cut it off with him (he was the pushy one, always, for the first three seasons.) The only period where it's sort of up in the air with both brothers was near the end of S3 through the breakup with Stefan in S4 (and there were mitigating circumstances there too). So again, the opposite of Katherine who actively wanted to be with both of them and string them both along even to the point of compelling Stefan for the entirety of their "relationship." Elena seemed 100% opposed to stringing them along, and while she had a choice to make (for, again, a few episodes only), she made it. Even with her emotions off, she was nothing like Katherine, aside from being selfish as are all vamps with the humanity switch off. As far as Elijah and Damon ending up with two of the doppelgangers: it's not like it's played as a coincidence. Elijah met Katherine because Klaus was searching the world for her, specifically because she was a doppelganger. He was drawn to her for the same reason Damon was drawn to Elena, IMO. She looked identical to another woman he loved and lost. And I think Damon was drawn to Elena because she represented a version of Katherine that was irresistible to him. And the doppelgangers seem to be drawn to those guys for very different reasons too.

I don't think this is the show's interpretation of doppelgangers, at all. It's definitely not mine. It's murky, but it seems like the doppelgangers are basically humans, individuals, with a touch of magic implanted in them in order to draw them to each other (for dumb reasons). Stefan is not Silas, Silas is not Tom. Katherine is not Elena, Elena is not Tatia, Tatia is not Amara. I think the parallels drawn between Katherine and Elena were done so to show the dangers of letting go of your humanity, becoming selfish to that point. But I don't think those parallels were meant to be hardwired into the doppelgangers.

I'm confused...did people get the feeling that Oliver came back wanting to pursue a relationship with Felicity, and that if she hadn't blown up at him, something else would have happened? Because I definitely did not get that feeling. The way the conversation went in the alley made it pretty clear to me that Oliver had no intention of doing "things differently" with Felicity. The shifty eyes when she recalled the "I love you," the sadness with which he acknowledged that she was referring to things between them. He didn't deny, or protest, or in any way indicate that he had hoped or planned to fix things. He is in the exact same mindset he was in 301 apparently. So in my eyes, that's just kind of double the reason for her to be like, "I don't really get what 'love' means to you, but whatever it is, I don't want it." (I HATE that this experience changed nothing about Oliver, btw. Cool character arc, MG.)