Carrie Ann

I agree--it's just that when I'm saying "public," I mean something happening publicly that forces someone to address it, or at least the rumors being covered at the level of MSM. And ITA that Arrow/KC aren't at a level where the latter is going to happen, especially without the first bit--something happening publicly. So if people continue to be skeptical because they feel that what's out there is unsourced or hearsay or biased, I do get that instinct. My only point was to say that "if anything were true, it would be public" is just inaccurate.

Yes, things might come to light, eventually. But not often at the exact moment they're happening unless something major happens publicly--a hospital stay, entry into rehab, a public fight, statements to the media, a court case. Angel is a perfect example. It took years for Charisma's side of the story to be public, and no one really knew about Glenn Quinn's addiction until after he died from it. Desperate Housewives, same. Nicollette Sheridan sued Mark Cherry, which is how all that stuff went public. That happened a few years after she was fired. For Buffy, nothing was really public until toward the very end of the series, when there started to be references to certain creative disagreements, but that was about as far as it went. (I know nothing about how public anything happening on 90210 was while it was airing because I was too young, and GA has been kind of a mess from the beginning. And honestly I think that might be a Shonda thing where she's just not willing to cover for anyone causing problems on her sets, so maybe she lets stuff get out? I don't know; I'm not a fan of her shows so I don't keep up with it.) So yeah, there might be rumors of discord all along, and then down the line things start spilling out that confirm that discord. That is basically exactly my point. There are rumors here, and it's in no one's interest to substantiate them--if there is anything to substantiate--because their hand hasn't been forced.

By who? I mean, I don't really have a dog in this fight, but this is just not true. PR people and handlers are paid to keep things looking rosy, because it's in everyone's best interest, on both sides, to keep any drama out of the public eye. If KC were to suddenly sue the WB/CW because she felt she'd been unfairly treated, or I guess if she were to become very vocal (a la Ricky Whittle) about feeling abused, that would be the only time it would be in anyone's interest on the other side to open up about any problems they had with her.

None of the obvious things I consider make sense to me, and the only possibility that sort of fits would be if she asked him to promise that he would tell someone everything about his 5 years "on the island," since she and Thea both commented on it earlier in the episode? It would give them a sort of framework for all of the flashbacks, and since they originally had a 5-year-plan for the show, it would make sense that him talking to someone would take place in S5. But I think that's all pretty much wishful thinking.

I don't think (?) the link to the Variety article was posted here, so just in case people miss it in the spoilers thread. (There are some spoilery bits within.) ‘Arrow’ Bosses and Star Discuss That Shocking Death: ‘We Knew That It Would Enrage a Lot of People’

I thought those were all good decisions too, so then...why...did you just throw that all in the garbage and have their final scene together be about how Oliver was the love of Laurel's life and she's carried around that damn picture of herself for four years? Ugh, MG, never fails to make things worse even when he tries to fix them.

I am absolutely baffled by every choice they made regarding Laurel in this ep. First, she was awfully quick to agree with Oliver that she should hang up the buckles; only to (correctly) change her mind. Why not bring that up earlier in the season? But most importantly, they utterly botched her death and deathbed scenes. She was killed (effectively) while she was immobilized, de-powered. Yes, she was there to bravely fight Damien, but they still didn't let her actually fight him to the death. That sucks. Her deathbed scene should not have been with or about Oliver. At all. In any way. That benefits no one, not even O/L shippers. It makes Laurel look a little pathetic for never having moved on from the guy who was such a d-bag to her, especially when Tommy died for her, but OKAY. The O/L relationship was not a dangling thread that the show needed to address to allow O/F to go on. That whole maudlin embarrassing scene was just...unnecessary. Anyway, it should have been Quentin at her bedside. That's the only relationship she ever had on the show that had any meaning (other than with Sara, arguably). That's the person she should have been thinking about as she died.

I would pay many, many dollars for a BTS of The CW oral history someday. I want to know EVERYTHING about The 100 situation, and would be happy with just tidbits from Arrow, TVD, etc.

I guess if the show had been very careful in how they had Felicity reference his pre-island antics, it might have worked as one aspect of her concerns about him. But they have worked hard to show how Ollie was completely different from S1 Oliver, who is very different from S4 Oliver. So Felicity never knew Ollie. Ollie never hurt her, the way he hurt Laurel. So bringing that stuff up would most likely have felt like fighting dirty, especially if she'd thrown his parents in the mix. If at some point in Oliver's introspection, he brings that up--or even Thea--that would make sense. But what Felicity brought up was the stuff that was relevant to her, to them. The damage Oliver incurred in those five years, and the survival tactics he adopted, have by his own admission made him closed off to other people. From my perspective, Oliver has overcome like 90% of those unhealthy habits, and Felicity is addressing that last 10%. When Oliver feels secure, he makes good choices, he reaches out to his loved ones, he doesn't try to railroad everyone anymore. But when he's very, very stressed in whatever way, he reverts to going it alone. That's the last big thing he has to work on re: his island damage, and the last big thing that impedes his relationship with Felicity, which is why she brought it up. As someone who finds Felicity's handling of stress via lashing out very uncomfortable and unpleasant, I will say that I had basically none of those feelings for the last half of 416. If she had said the "island" bit in anger, I would maybe not have been comfortable with it, because it may have come across like a jab. Instead, it came across as a devastating realization, and one she'd clearly struggled with and was sad to have to admit.

It would be pretty hypocritical and dark for Felicity to believe that kids can't be different from their parents, considering her own father.

The "Guess you didn't have her," and "So many astonishing qualities. I for one can't WAIT to move on to the next chapter." were clearly directed at him too. And I think it's pretty hard to separate the snark directed at ~love~ itself from snark directed at Oliver since he's the one who made her feel that cynical.

Yes, and also the other side of the coin--that she is a character with faults, etc., not an embodiment of perfection, and therefore, it's okay for viewers to acknowledge those shortcomings for what they are, and hope the show might address them.

This gets at something about Felicity this episode/season/series that I've been thinking about, which is: her defense mechanisms vs. Oliver's. This episode was basically about her defense mechanisms, and how they were making things worse and not actually working for her anymore by the end, to the point that she had to abandon them and simply remove herself from the situation instead. She starts out being very adult, but still avoidant, in her conversation with Oliver. By the end of the conversation, though, she gets frazzled and spits out the bottom line about why it has become awkward: because they were engaged and now they're not together. The thing she's trying to bury and not talk about is sneaking out anyway. From that point on, she keeps trying the shut-down and shut-out plan, until Oliver's vows, when the jig is up. She tells the team about the breakup, calmly and clearly, then says firmly that she does not want to talk about it. In addition to that being in-character for how she responds to being stressed--and she has NOT reacted well, historically, when pushed to act differently in those situations--it also gives the show a reason not to have a scene where she talks to a third party. They weren't ready to reveal her real feelings until the end, when she did so to Oliver. (This does not absolve the show of what would have been a fairly easy fix--just having Dig or Thea giving nonverbal support or even a quick line opposing the fake wedding until it becomes clear that is the only option--but they rarely do that kind of nuanced stuff these days, so.) Back to the point: I'm not positive that the show intends to make it seem like Felicity feels that abandoned/isolated by the team, but I can see that interpretation. And if she does feel that way, then IMO it is partially of her own making; a result of her own defense mechanisms. Just like Oliver's defense mechanisms--which this whole breakup hinges on--hers aren't healthy either. They keep people at a distance--which we saw and she acknowledged in 406. In times of stress, Felicity doesn't reach out for support, and in fact shuts it down preemptively or reacts in anger or frustration if pushed. My point is not to say any of this is her fault, or to absolve Dig, Thea, or even the show for not being more explicit in support of her/her situation. My point is to say that--related to my earlier post that I felt the way things ended indicated a growth arc for Felicity--I think her defense mechanisms hurt her more than they help her, and as we are also addressing Oliver's in that way, I would be very happy with this storyline if it addressed Felicity's too.

What love triangle are you referring to? I know there are a lot of shippers for two ships that include the same person, but I wouldn't say that it's been handled as a love triangle at any point on the show.

Ha, I actually feel the opposite! I was kind of relieved by the end of the episode because her leaving the team and becoming so cynical about love signaled to me a character development arc for Felicity in this last third of the season. I don't think she did anything "wrong," but I do think that we're not supposed to want Felicity to not believe in love anymore, and to not believe she can be a part of the team anymore. And yes, Oliver will have to do something(s) to address some of her concerns, but she is going to have to come around on those things on her own, too. I agree. Prior to 415, I was not on board with the idea of Felicity quitting the team, but I got on board that episode, and that position was cemented for me in this one. I'm still not 100% sold on it being the MOST in-character thing for her to do, but I'm very satisfied with it from a narrative perspective because they provided enough motivation here to convince me. The team was basically indifferent to *her* situation, and she was, uh, pretty poisonous toward Oliver. I'm glad she removed herself from that situation, and I hope it doesn't last too long. :)

Ric Cosnett, Carlos Valdes, Jesse L Martin (sorry for the JLW, work acronym stuck in my brain)--someone mentioned the movie they crowdfunded for last year, and I was referring back to that.

If they could have done this through traditional means, they probably would have. The writer and director have basically done a short together as promo for a video game, prior to this short. That's not enough to get a studio, or even smart individual investors, to back you on a feature. Especially not if you're trying to hand-pick your cast. $200k seems very low to me for the scope of what they're proposing. So it's possible that they have something lined up--like the Veronica Mars movie did with WB (obviously a very different scenario)--where if they could raise this amount, someone would chip in the rest. But...that "someone" could just be Robbie and Stephen, for all I know. I too would have been more likely to give to the RC/CV/JLW movie, for a few reasons. One, I find them all more appealing off-screen presences than SA or RA, and I don't think they make as many "asks" from their fans. Two, their aspirations seemed in line with a low budget, so it would be more likely that the movie would turn out well. Three, because it wasn't special-effects based, the story was probably the most important thing, where here, it seems like a complete afterthought.

Ok, gotcha. That makes sense, I just still feel like Arrow didn't have the same ambitions as DD, so I don't really compare them in that way. The stories the DC shows tell are basically all at surface level. They don't really get at larger social issues, and when they touch on bigger things like disability, or PTSD, or addiction (like DD/JJ do), they are little more than plot points. That's all they were even intended to be, because these shows don't try to really delve into things like that.

Hmmm, I really like DD and Arrow, and I honestly don't think Arrow was ever aiming to be what DD is. I think they're pretty far apart, tonally, stylistically, and even in most of the content, aside from some standard comic book tropes. IMO, the DC shows are less serious (and take themselves less seriously), as well as less ambitious in some regards than the Marvel shows (other than AoS which just doesn't work for me), and I think that's an intentional choice, as well as a result of being on The CW instead of Netflix. I like both approaches, personally. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Nope.

Both of the people who used to do photo recaps of the show stopped at least a season ago, I think. One was atom1cflea, and the other was prattschris, I think?

Okay, cool, your posts sounded like you were angry about some part of this, so I was just confused about what part was at issue here. If you're just talking about being freaked out by what Brie's plans are, then I get that.

Brie wanting to take Felicity's implant is supposed to be horrifying. I don't see the problem with Felicity being threatened, aside from the fact that the paralysis storyline has been problematic from the start. But no one here actually believes Brie will be successful in getting the implant from Felicity, right? So the problem here is that there may be "funny" moments that take place in the same episode as the horrifying thing which is not actually going to happen? Characters are threatened or hurt every episode--some in ways very personal and scary--and yet there have almost always been moments of levity, often from Felicity herself, who was then criticized for being inappropriate. As far as how Felicity feels about it, and whether having lighter moments in that episode is somehow disrespectful to the grave threat she's under, it's entirely possible that the show is going to play this as though Felicity never once believes it is going to happen, and that she's angry about it, and spends the episode scheming with Thea and her mom. Even if not, the show has balanced this kind of thing before, and given that I'm pretty sure the "humor" of this episode will barely register (if MG's other example of 407) is anything to go by, I'm not going to get up in arms about it in advance.

I'm going in three months and can't wait. I really need to stop listening to the soundtrack though, so it stays fresh for me.

Oh yay! Glen Winter is great.