Turtle

Oh, Lillybee, it is so damn cute when you try to apply logic and reasonableness to this show. It was Julian who called Ned that. I love Julian, but in the grand scheme of things, Ned is a much better and more accomplished person, so maybe Julian should check himself. The Jake timing/ location was super weird. Were Maxie and Nathan making out in the same spot on stage for the whole time Jake and Liz talked and then DIDI IT?? That is.. Not impressive on Liz and Jake's part. Or maybe super impressive by Maxie and Nathan? Olivia is alternately a total dummy and a total genius, whatever the story needs.

I really like Michael and Sabrina. I thought both actors did a great job, and Michael actually looked hot to me, which is a new thing. Anna choosing to go with Duke even after Bruce trying to kill Jordan is ridiculous and I will always believe that she was going to arrest him herself. Otherwise, it's too stupid to take. I'm surprisingly uninterested in Olivia's baby. I totally forgot about the kidneys! But yeah, I'm sure Helena has all sorts of random body parts sitting around, so I could hand wave it. I'm so happy TG is leaving, but not at all happy that we are apparently going to be seeing a lot of him this summer.

This could..actually work? And I don't think I'd mind it nearly as much as I would Liz getting pregnant.

I think it's possible that all three Spencer men make some less than PC comments when they find out about Maya. I can envision a scene with the three of them talking about it, crudely, and someone walking it and chastising them. Or maybe one of the brothers isn't a total jerk about it, and tries to set the other two straight. I think GLAAD might support some bigotry, because it's a real part of being a transgendered person.

Please, for the love of boxed wine and all else I hold dear, no more pregnancies for Liz, regardless how they turn out, but especially if it's a WTD situation. I fear this board would explode, and I'd miss you all.

Maya has to realize that now that other people know, especially Ridge, she has to tell Rick, and stat. Doesn't she? I mean, it was bad enough having Nicole and Carter talking about it nonstop all over the building, but this is getting out of hand! I really thought that Ridge seemed like he was actually worried about Rick a little, and not just his reaction. He had a flash or two of what seemed like real sympathy for Rick. Of course, he may be a little concerned, but he's not going to let that stop him from taking advantage of the situation. I agree that at least one character should be an absolute asshole about finding out. One, it's realistic, and could be a good way to show the kind of hate and discrimination transgender people suffer. Two, it could be a non-hammy way for the show to do some educating about transgender people, without it having to have it come directly from Maya. If nothing else, there should be some conversations between others about finding it weird or not understanding it. Thanks for sharing that; I think it's hard to acknowledge our own biases to ourselves, harder to overcome them, and harder still to admit them publicly, even in an anonymous forum. And I think what you've said is a pretty common path for people, me included. I was never hateful or bigoted about it, but I do admit to feeling uneasy. Growth and maturity- thank god for it. All in all, I thi the show has been doing a good job with a story that could have gone very very wrong very easily.

I really enjoyed the whole episode, but I nearly died at the way Ruby was looking at Bow after Bow said she bought the sandwich meat. Priceless.

Exactly! And I'm really hoping that he never says townie again; the more he says it, the harder it is for me to defend him. Liz sure is creeping in to crazy territory. I might be okay with that. Her talking to that photo had me in stitches. I don't care if Jordan dies. Or Duke. Weirdly, I find that I do care if Carlos is dead.

Not if they read this forum, they won't... I'm pretty sure Dan thinks that Will is the goat, and wants to take him to the end. Dan is a superfan, after all, and a master strategist.

Kristabell, I respect your opinion, but in all US jurisdictions, having sex with someone under false pretenses is not a crime; it is at most a basis for a civil suit. It may, in some (rare) situations amount to fraud, but even then it is not a criminal act. There are no cases in the last hundred years that even seriously address "rape by fraud"' because it is an antiquated and outdated legal fiction. Lying to someone to have sex with them is not criminal. Crappy and cruel, yes, but not illegal. ETA: r Even if rape by deception exists, this situation does not in any way qualify.

Me neither. Even at his most vengeful, I just cannot hold anything against him, and I have no idea why. I don't know if Michael and Sabrina have any staying power, but I'm really liking them together right now. I can see potential for them long-term, and it could be a great story: young ELQ exec and a nurse, both in the process of letting go of the past, trying to overcome some horrible things in their pasts, trying to find their way... It's almost soap-ish! ETA: historically, "rape by fraud" and similar charges were brought by the father or male guardian of a woman who had sex while not married, to protect the father's "investment" in his daughter because the daughter was ruined, and the daughter was property- it was at heart a property claim. I, for one, would rather not bring that particular charge back into fashion.

Why did Carolyn turn on Tyler? I thought he made a really good point about Dan's advantage being dangerous. She knows what the advantage is, so maybe she's hoping to use it to her advantage down the road by aligning with Dan for a vote or two? I think it's possible that Sierra, Carolyn, and Mike formed an alliance, which will be fun to watch, as I'm sure no one else is expecting it. Regardless, Carolyn is almost guaranteed for final four, and that annoys me. I am really not a fan.

Thanks, I heard that, but where did Jeff get that info? We didn't see that discussion at tribal, so I can't figure out why Jeff said it. *We* know it's true, but we don't why Jeff said it, or what any of these people said to make him think it. It annoys me. Maybe it was discussed that Mike and Tyler are the strongest there? If so, I want to see it! Why do so many people on this show, on all seasons, over- and mis-use "myself"? Drives me crazy.

Will told Dan that he figured everyone else was voting for Tyler, and so Will voted for Dan, is that right? That doesn't make any sense to me, and I don't understand why Dan was okay with that explanation. Oh, Rodney, dear. Not everyone is your mother, thinking you're a special snowflake. At your age, being that hurt about not getting a special treat on your birthday is .. sad, especially when you're in such a non-normal situation. And that's coming from a person who regularly celebrates birthmonth. Also, you're a melodramatic idiot. I couldn't stand Carolyn on day one, and I still think that she is not a person I would like personally. But I must begrudgingly admit that she seems to be playing a good game. Showing us only Mike and Tyler's names being written down irritated me, because it told us they were the only two getting votes, which took some of the suspense out of rather Dan was getting votes. Love your comment, but I missed Jeff saying anything like this - fill me in? I heard him say there was an admission that everyone wants to take the weakest to the end, but I missed anyone actually saying that. Why does it break Dan's heart to vote for Mike, this time? Especially when he knows Mike has the idol?

I knew was buying drugs in room 608, and I knew Elliot was off getting high, but I didn't connect that the two were related. Was the guy in that room Elliot? I thought he was just some random drug dealer, where Scott went to buy his drugs, and figured Elliot had another supplier. I really wonder their TV contracts all look like, as far as when/ where the cameras can follow them. If it's only on the boat, with the ability to give acces to other stuff in a one-off basis, then I don't understand why Scott would agree to let the camera follow him yo a very obvious drug buy. And if their contracts require full access if the show wants it, why didn't we see the camera following Elliot to wherever he disappears to? I guess it's possible that they all have personalized contracts, but it still doesn't make sense. Sig was so freaked out. Watching him trying to settle himself for several minutes afterward really hit home how terrifying that must be, even for someone so experienced. Sig can be a real ass, but he also seems to care about his crew. Ahem, Elliot.

I thought that phone call she made toward the end as Louise walked away, saying she needed someone's services again, was her ordering a hit on Louise. Could have been wrong, though.

. I guess that's the part I'm not getting - how does what *Liz* knows affect whether Jake can give consent? Obviously, great minds can differ on this, and it's a sensitive topic. I'm on the side of not-rape-but-still-totally-terrible.

Jake does exist - he's right there and we can all see him. Jake has lost his memory, but he is not mentally incompetent and therefore unable to give consent. He's a grown man who is able to decide who he does and does not want to sleep with. Telling him "Hey, you're Jason" isn't going to change the fact that he wants to sleep with Liz. Our memories and life experiences are what make us who we are; Jake lost all that, so what he does and says and wants now is a reflection of who he is *now*. He isn't Jason Morgan or Jason Quartermaine anymore, because he doesn't share any of those memories. Personality wise, he's starting pretty much from scratch. No fact of identity, without the memories and feelings and whatnot that belong to that fact, will change who he is today. And he is competent to make decisions, stupid as they may be. If Liz didn't know he was Jason, but only knew he had amnesia, would there be any question of rape? To me, her being with him while keeping it from him is shitty, and mean, and definitely going to blow up in her face, but it's not criminal. I'm glad Maxie and Nathan are back together, and I hope Spinelli disappears, although I do like Ellie.

I got the impression that the mask had been off before, but that Spencer had never looked in the mirror while it was off. It didn't seem like Spencer was still required to wear the mask 24/7 for healing reasons, but that he chose to keep it on because he thought he was hideous. Nik has been telling him that it wasn't that bad and he wasn't hideous looking, I thought, so I'd figured that Nik had seen it.ETA: can someone remind me if Patrick and Anna even know that Robin is a prisoner? Or do people just think they *should*know? I don't pay much attention to it because I always felt like the show painted itself in to a corner and just had to let it go.

.. Everything even Legion of Doom-adjacent was so damn convoluted and confusing that I lost all track of who was even involved, much less what they knew, or when. When Liz asked Nik about why he was going after ELQ shares, I was super-excited for a (milli)second, thinking I was finally going to get at least one piece of the puzzle solved! Alas, no. Dubbel, you're right, it wasn't Patrick, Anna, Dante, or Lulu's obligation to punish Spencer, but I would have expected a little more, maybe an emotional outburst at least, like "What is wrong with you, you could have really hurt them!?!?!?" Instead, I felt like we just got immediate understanding and concern and rational thinking. I would have lost my damned mind at that kid if he had tried to drop sandbags on my kid, even if that kid was Cameron. And Dante and Lulu especially - in my family, aunts and uncles punish a kid, or at least give him a very stern Talking To when they act out in such a serious way. A little back talk, no, but trying to hurt someone? Absolutely I would step in and DO something if my sisters/ brothers weren't around. I know it's different for other families, but that's why I was so surprised. Kids trying to hurt people is a pretty serious business, I think, and leaving that kid alone right then seemed like the worst idea in the world. At least call his grandmother, for pete's sake.

Well, don't forget that he also asked Maxie if she would please try to enjoy the Magic Milo dance a little less, due to his precious fragile ego. I hate him so much. I've mentioned that I like Spencer probably 100 times, right? Well, yesterday's episode infuriated even me, so I'm surprised some of y'all didn't have aneurysms. Did we really have Spencer in a mask and ranting about being a monster for months just to get that dumb scene about phantom of the nurses' ball? Did he really try to kill two kids, and all those adults were all calm and collected and worried about *Spencer*? Sigh, of course. Of course. I couldn't believe Dante and Lulu figured "Oh, Spencer just needs some time, let's leave him all alone to think it through, because he is, after all, a child with possibly permanent facial scars that he is not handling well, and who just tried to drop sandbags on the heads of his peers, and who just over-theatrically hijacked a live show to declare himself a monster... he'll be fine if he just sits alone for a while." Poor Rocco - with parenting like that, he doesn't stand a chance. I sort of love all the Courtney hate. When I first found TWOP, she had already been nicknamed SWSNBN, and I thought it was kind of weird because she had never really bothered me all that much, but it seems that hate is contagious because even though she's been gone forever, I now hate her with a passion!

I liked today's show, well, I didn't mind it, but I am in total agreement with your other two points. I even spent most of the day thinking it was Friday too. My people! I am also a Spencer fan, and More often than not, I like Nik and Spencer scenes. I hated Britt's kidnapping scheme because I was really enjoying her with Nik and Spencer.I will never understand why Jake feels an obligation to stay with Hayden. Sure, if she was really his wife, it would hurt her if he told her that he doesn't have any feelings for her and would rather be with someone else. But how is this any better? Forcing himself to spend time with a woman he doesn't know, much less care about, when there is someone else he has strong feelings for doesn't even make soap sense. Why not have him date both for a spell, and let *that* be the drama- Jake getting to know Hayden to see if develops feelings, Hayden trying to earn her money by wooing him, Liz torn between Ric and Jake..there's potential there that would be so much more fun to watch. And that would even make some sense.

I thought that was interesting too. My guess is that everyone except Dan knows that Dan is the low man on that six-person totem pole. I'm hoping they show a lot of the fallout from this tribal next week because I'd like to find out why Will voted for Dan, as well as why no one else in Tyler's core alliance tried to protect him by voting for someone other than Shirin.

I completely disagree that Shirin was playing the victim - she *was* a victim- or trying to manipulate anyone by discussing her past. She was viciously attacked on a very personal level. At Tribal, Jeff explicitly asked her about the event and what about it was so upsetting. When we've heard her discuss it other times, she generally uses a relatively neutral tone of voice, suggesting to me that she has done a lot of healing but recognizes it is part of her past and that there's no reason to hide it. Moreover, these people are together 24/7 with nothing to do but talk about the game and and spend maybe 10 hours every few days at challenges and tribal; I'm sure they end up telling each other almost everything about themselves just out of sheer boredom and lack of any stimulation.

I think it's interesting that Will was the only one besides Tyler who didn't vote for Shirin. Sure, Mike was bluffing about playing the ISO, but what if he hadn't been? Does that mean the rest of the alliance was willing to let Tyler go if Mike *did* play the idol? It seems to me a big risk to take, and if I were Tyler, I'd be a pissed that even my closest alliance member (Carolyn) was perfectly willing to take that risk. Even if it was easy to guess Mike was bluffing, there was no way to be sure. Desperate people do desperate things, as evidenced by Tyler voting for Dan. (I assume Will voted for Dan because he believed the bluff. Or maybe he saw Dan talking to Shirin earlier and so now hates him. Who knows.) ETA: ISO is a very strange autocorrect for HII.