Churchhoney

In a family like theirs, you do not ever relax. And you don't trust anybody. Plus, your family and your cult leader have continually coached you to represent yourself in a certain way to strangers -- like the tv audience. They aren't anywhere close to being normal people, but normal people almost never recognize abnormality of the Duggar kind because it's so remote from most people's experience that they don't even realize it exists.

I'm pretty sure they just check up on whether the other person has the "right" slant on the verse according to Gothard. When you look at the ATI materials, it all seems pretty prescriptive -- very reminiscent of Scientology materials, where the man in charge defines all the words for you and gives you the proper paraphrase, which you then learn to parrot back. Looks to me as if debate of what a passage means doesn't have much, if any, part in Gothardian religious studies, although there may well be stuff that I'm not aware of.

Bingo. And if a home school is acceptable under its state law, and the state law requires no accountability to the state by that home school, then there's absolutely nothing to stop a parent from simply writing out a transcript of material that a kid has supposedly mastered. Heck, even some schools do this when they know perfectly well that the things on a transcript aren't actually getting accomplished! That's why we have all this accrediting of schools and colleges -- it's intended to be a way for groups of schools to self-police. Even schools know that some schools aren't getting much done. And with homeschooling there's no such self-policing attempt, so the Duggars can write whatever they want on a transcript, and I'm sure they do. All that said, though, somewhere I got the impression that the particular Crown program that Joe went to isn't really a part of the college proper -- i.e., it may not even be anything that they'd include in their paperwork aimed at gaining accreditation because it's not part of any degree program, just a time-limited course of study on religion that's outside their main curriculum. And in Arkansas, this isn't necessary. Actually, now the tests don't even seem to be required any longer. But even when they were, the state only looked at the tests when the names had been removed from them. The point of the tests was to have some data on which to base an overall statistical estimate of how homeschoolers in the state in general were doing. The state never ever knew how any given kid or any given family was doing on the tests. They returned the tests with names to the parents, so the parents could gauge their own kids' progress if they wanted to. But the government did not look at or record the test results for individual families or children.

Exactly. This pair of passages -- "The high school from which you graduated and/or college you previously attended must send an official transcript directly to the Registrar’s office. This transcript must show the date of graduation, if applicable. If you have completed the GED, the official scores must be sent directly to the Admissions Office." -- gives the college a perfect out to do that. First of all, it says "if you have a GED." So obviously no GED is required. And then, when you're in an environment such as this where homeschooling is the norm rather than an uncommon situation, "the high school from which you graduated" can clearly mean "the home high school from which you graduated." The Duggars lawfully teach high school and are allowed by their state to declare that their kids have graduated from that high school. So what Joe needed was some sort of transcript mailed in from the Duggar home school. They even let everybody further off the hook with this -- "must show the date of graduation, if applicable" -- so, officially, you wouldn't even have to declare that your child had graduated from your home school, although we have evidence over the years that the Duggars do have some kind of graduation process for the kids. And they even mention online that a kid has achieved it sometimes, when they aren't too distracted by other much more meaningful and exciting stuff such as courtships, modesty panels and melting rootbeer floats. Plus, of course, Joe didn't actually enroll in the college to get one of their multi-year degrees or one of their technical certificates, it appears. He went in for some kind of limited, one-year Bible course that seems to be on its own separate track outside the realm of any of their other education programs. That's the kind of accreditation Crown is trying to get. It tells you a great deal that they can't even get any group like that to accredit them. That said, some of their tech programs such as auto mechanics do have quite valid and widely accepted accreditations.

It does seem bizarre. For one thing, though, it's my impression that in the Gothard cult there's no room for discussion of what Bible passages mean or exactly how to put Christian teachings into action. I think they're coached to memorize and accept an interpretation that's handed down from Bill above, and their job is to assiduously avoid scrutinizing it or asking any questions about it. (perhaps in large part because most of those interpretations don't actually bear scrutiny!) And, of course, they no longer have a "home church," and they don't seem to participate in any activities at the other church (churches?) they occasionally attend so they almost certainly don't know what's going on there. I'd also guess that their "very good friends" aren't really friends in any meaningful sense. Hanging around in large groups in the Duggar living room with Ma and Pa sitting right there isn't really conducive to friendship and, again, the Gothard cult clearly teaches -- we have tons of documentary evidence from other people about this -- that the mere existence of friends is considered to be a mortal threat to one's eternal soul, particularly for children, teens and young adults. They're required to travel in large groups, usually with chaperones, to avoid conversation or any experimentation or fun that isn't 100 percent parent-sanctioned and supervised. My family successfully kept me from having any friends without the assistance of any cult, and I actually went to public school. So I imagine the Duggars do a pretty brilliant job of enforcing the Gothard teachings on this, since they're the exact same kind of control freaks that I grew up with, as far as I can tell. And just as with the Duggars, my family has continually insisted over the decades -- and continues to insist -- that I had numerous good friends growing up. ... In fact, I had no friends, good or otherwise, except the ones I made up in my head. So the "my very good friend" talk is coached. And, very much to my horror, a lot of the Duggar offspring appear to actually believe it. Anyway, all this being the case, I'm guessing they truly do have nothing to talk about. And I think their long-running tv shows attest to this fact. Aside from Internet snippets I've only watched two 15-20 minute segments of any of their shows, and I swear that in one of them they repeated the same talking-head segment three times in that period. I think all of this is why! .... Dinner conversation ain't happening with this crowd.

Maybe, not being tv people like the Duggs, the guys are less happy about kissing deliberately on camera -- especially knowing it's for posting so millions can see. Just sayin. Well, just hopin, actually.

Hey, dirty shoes on the food-preparation counters. So .... sofa schmofa. Must say I'm always kinda puzzled by the horrors everybody has about the bare feet on the kitchen counters when we've certainly also seen them wear shoes on the kitchen counters. Neither is good. But at least the feet have probably been washed in the last week or so ... while the shoes .... never..... plus the shoes are used!... My complaint is just -- Walking, running and standing on the kitchen counters, period. But if you're going to do that, what's a sofa here and there? They really have no manners whatsoever, and not just when it comes to furniture. Guess if you have a heart for the Lord, it doesn't matter how you treat anything and anybody else.

From your keyboard to God's ear. And Jennie?

OMFG. I've said it before and I'll say it again. He is a sick, evil bastard. I'm very familiar with this kind of behavior, and he isn't doing it because he's a hyuk hyuk dumb bunny trying to be humorous. He knows exactly what he's doing, why he's doing it and how to do it most successfully. He does it to taunt, wound and diminish those kids and thereby keep most of them, at least, under control. Because people succumb to that kind of dominance, especially when they've been trained to it from birth. It's disgusting.

Don't be scared to try The Giver. It's not really the nightmare-making type of dystopian book (in my opinion, anyway). It's really subtle, which, to me anyway, reduces the nightmare-making potential -- while actually showing things in a blacker light than more nightmare-inducing books! As this guy says, it's got very interesting parallels to cult worlds like ATI and especially shows how they can subtly mold people and cast a really all-encompassing spell. Also, I think it's kind of a reflection on something else we've talked about here from time to time -- how so many cults seem to differ superficially but actually seek to constrain people in very similar ways when you look at them closely. ..... That's especially interesting to me in light of how cults like ATI/IBLP teach their followers that they're so special and set apart, even though their cherished rules and "principles" are mainly just a rehash of what every other cult has done throughout history.

Another ex-ATI-er with a good post at Homeschoolers Anonymous. Talks about the lingering issues people have even after they leave, when it comes to relating to people outside the cult: 'Why relive the past, especially when you recognize the problems with it? Isn’t it enough to acknowledge that it was wrong and move on? 'For a while, I thought so too. It was so easy to assume, “I’m not there anymore, so everything’s alright.” And in the process, I swept under the rug so many issues of the heart that needed to be confronted long ago. After hitting an emotional rock bottom in college, I finally realized that there was something that needed resolution. I needed a paradigm shift. It took several years before understanding just how much my time in IBLP stunted my emotional, social, and spiritual growth. Even then, there was a tendency to focus on the obvious. '“A led to B? Huh, that explains everything. Welp, time to move on!” 'Still then, there were deeper issues that needed to be examined. In the years that followed, I discovered groups of people online who had similar childhoods. They were trying to figure out this whole life thing too and were similarly discouraged by how little support they received from “the outside.” Anything that could help them process their experiences was helpful, even if it was just a fictional story. One story in particular captured my attention in relation to social interaction, especially after it was adapted into a feature film: Lois Lowry’s 1993 book The Giver. It didn’t take long before I began to see some rather familiar elements. And in the process, I began to realize that these types of stories could be useful in communicating to others why supporting those who are struggling to process their experiences is important.... '..One of the toughest parts of telling my story is communicating just how insidious growing up in a place like IBLP can be as a kid. When you’re young, you have no real sense of discernment, no judgment center in your brain to help you determine how true the stuff you hear really is. It’s especially difficult when a master salesman like Bill Gothard slips in boatloads of assumptive language. When someone positions himself as an expert in a sales presentation and controls where the focus is placed, it’s all too easy to sidestep the base assumptions that inform the crux of that presentation. If you’re hooked by one of his key points, there’s a natural tendency to assume what he assumes and swallow the rest without any kind of scrutiny. 'Some of the most foundational assumptions that have informed the bulk of IBLP’s teachings have to do with the relationship between Christians and the rest of the world. In the mind of Gothard, the world is nothing more than a corrupting influence against which believers must shield themselves....In the IBLP world, friends were nothing more than additional corrupting influences that could pull a young person away from his or her authority structure. Imagine a world like the one in Tangled, but with more towers than Rapunzel’s. Verticality, with an emphasis on remaining within one’s “family unit,” was the order of the day. 'Growing up as a kid, I carried this rather adversarial mindset with me while interacting with anyone my own age. The ideals of IBLP felt so empowering that it was easy to feel superior to and more mature than everyone else. Friends were not people to encourage and be encouraged by but rather potentially negative influences with whom to avoid becoming too close. After leaving IBLP and moving to Texas, I was quick to embrace all the new relationships that awaited, but there was still that part of me that didn’t want to become too close to anyone. I’d get giddy about the prospect offeeling like I was close to someone without the actual relationship investment. I’d spend time flitting around between acquaintances in college to escape the scary process of becoming vulnerable with those with whom I needed to be vulnerable. 'Even today, I’ve had to guard against closing myself off to people who may initially seem different. Throughout the post-IBLP healing process, there’s a pitfall I’ve struggled to avoid: trading the feeling of superiority to others by virtue of one mindset for another feeling of superiority to others by virtue of another mindset. It all goes back to dealing with the root issues – in this case, pride – instead of focusing only on the surface.' https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/04/22/verticality-sameness-and-the-world-of-the-giver/

Looks like some places keep a special zipline around for people who show up wearing prairie skirts. .... Maybe it was a fundie resort. Or a mission. Spontaneous and honest conversation of any kind is a threat to the system in Duggardom. I'm sure it's considered just as dangerous when it's among family members. And they're under constant surveillance and they don't even necessarily know by whom. They have live-in secret agents, too. Conversation is not encouraged, to put it mildly.

And yet the Dugg would keep being voted through to the detriment of people who could actually dance and were willing to get with the program. It'd be Bristol Palin on steroids.

Well, but don't most people come to Branson riding in tour buses and wearing t-shirts, windbreakers and sneakers and carrying a pretty small bag that'll fit in the luggage section of a bus? I know a lot of people who've gone to Branson and that's been the style of travel all have taken. And when people are there, they're running from show to show to shop to show to amusement activity and back again. I've seen several Branson-trip itineraries printed out and there doesn't seem to be a spare minute. I don't get the impression that it's a tourist venue where you'd have the time, the available wardrobe or the inclination to go to a really really fancy place for dinner. An upscale casual dining-type atmosphere would be about the height of the decor one would want to dress for in Branson, from what I've gathered.

Indeed. Here are some ways they used to look: http://i.perezhilton.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/1d8f7b7ce2abc86a5f1716b31dcb351f.gif http://spyhollywood.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Duck-Dynasty.jpg http://img.wennermedia.com/620-width/1384789674_robertson-family-landing-page-640.jpg The Duggs aren't the only ones who've changed their styles of dressing for the tee and vee (maybe more than once). "Reality" ain't all it's cracked up to be.

So true about the men's summit.

Ex-Gothard kid says he first began noticing how pernicious the cult was when he started learning about polygamist Mormon extremists and Scientology. He was a lucky one who got to participate in some external stuff, such as fundie-homeschool debate, so he got access to some information (like the Jeubs). The Duggs, on the other hand, are additionally imprisoned because their parents' stupidity and complete anti-intellectualism keeps them from finding out any facts about the rest of the world that they might use as a bridge to understanding their own world, I guess. https://hareachingout.wordpress.com/2016/02/18/get-to-know-the-haro-board-qa-with-nicholas-ducote/ "You say in your bio that your homeschool speech and debate experience kindled your passion for teaching. What are some other ways that homeschool speech and debate positively influenced your homeschooling experience? "Homeschool speech and debate taught me to think critically and gave me the tools to deprogram myself from the ATI cult. For most of my high school, debate was the primary driver of my education and I was given very little instruction in math and science. Debate tournaments, the socializing online with people I met there, and local clubs, were some of the only consistent social environments I had in high school. My parents pulled me from soccer at 15 when I had to play on a team where girls wore shorts and I would, of course, uncontrollably lust. "Among the HARO board members, you have the unique experience of growing up in a family that adhered to Bill Gothard’s ATI homeschool program. Has that given you a different perspective on the work that HARO does? "All of the HARO board members saw and/or experienced first-hand the issues HA/HARO discusses in the homeschooling world, but being in ATI gave me a slightly different barometer when examining abuse in our community. Some of my realizations that ATI was a cult came from learning about the polygamist Mormon sects and Scientology and the way people became trapped and abused by a system. In ATI, I witnessed a sprawling behemoth of a cult and spent time at a number of the “Training Facilities.” "I also knew something was wrong with ATI and Gothard by the time I was 18, but ten years ago no one wanted to talk about that. Everyone was busy praising Gothard and ATI. Knowing those issues gave me the confidence to start HA – knowing that I had seen and learned terrible things and no one could gaslight that out of me. "I tend to analyze the systems and ideologies within the homeschooling culture and movement. It was disturbing to realize how far Gothard and dangerous fundamentalist Baptist ideologies had poisoned the homeschooling world. Too often, I’m talking to someone and tell them “oh, that thing you thought was so weird is actually a teaching from Gothard” and they start realizing how much their parents might have borrowed (even unintentionally). Yet even now, with all the scandalous information on Gothard’s tenure at IBLP and the systemic cover-ups, people can still believe the same things they were taught in IBLP/ATI and think they have escaped the cult. That’s why I will keep talking about it."

And if the "Venessa ordered her not to call" part is true, there could be another cult contribution. Venessa was Jill's authority figure in this scenario (hard to believe that this loon could be anybody's authority figure, but still), and in the Gothard cult instant and total obedience thing to your authority figures is inculcated from birth as well -- so Jill-the-robot would have been following her cult training in listening to her as well. Rebelling doesn't seem to be in the ATI-provided repertoire, no matter how well advised rebellion might seem. And that's yet another reason not to trust people from the cult with any responsibility whatsoever. They'll follow orders, no matter how stupid, rather than look at a situation and respond to it based on what they're seeing. They're taught not to believe their own lying eyes.

I think they mean mushrooms sold by a very small farm. .... That's what artisanal seems to mean in food these days. .... and I think they mean "Amish-pastured poultry" -- i.e., free-range chickens eating whatever's on the ground on an Amish farm. Restaurant isn't up on its hyphens, I expect. Exactly. A lot of it's quite pretentious, and if you're basically someone who's fluent in Early Readers, pretentious food descriptions are going to throw you. I don't think they were lying. Especially because we know they are very easily thrown.

Were those invented by a Gothardite? They're perfect, completely covering the evil overtly defrauding calf and ankle while leaving the godly and inspiring foot and toes flapping free. (of course the jeans are satanic .... )

It takes years of practice to be as skilled with the hairspray can as Jizm Bob.

The thing is, though, they were schooled not to take any advantage of those opportunities that TLC gave them, since the mob they traveled with, including their parents, provided complete cover for simply refusing to participate in any unaccustomed experience or eat anything but chips from the hotel vending machine. Plus, I'm sure they're scared of the waiters, too! And there's probably some rule about asking questions of strange men... Sad.

Though I'm convinced that the producers drive most of what happens on these shows, I'm not so sure that the Duggdummies weren't being honest when they said they couldn't understand that menu. Food items/menu words that Duggars probably don't know (or don't know the taste or meaning of and thus are scared crapless of): Creole Rosemary Carnivore Braised Bison Empanadas Chipotle Aioli Glazed Asian Slaw Artisan Chevre Terrine Crystalized Brie Coulis Charcuterie Cappicola Hummus Bisque Dungeness Spinach (just kidding, sort of) Pancetta Scallop Caesar Pesto Aged Balsamic Reduction Anchovy Feta Wilted Bordelaise Marinated Whisky Seared Parsnips White Truffle Oil Chutney Portobello Heirloom Tomatoes Quinoa Arugula Gastrique Brochette Calamari, Shallot Sorghum Faroe Island Shaved Brussels Sprouts (a Bates daughter didn't recognize broccoli, we should remember) Chilean Risotto Galette Crème Brulee Grand Marnier Soufflé Anglaise Decadent Bananamisu Mascarpone Not to mention all the wines, of course. And these people really can't read (and think cows live in cages), so I wouldn't be surprised if just this number of unfamiliar words and items, repeatedly popping up along with those heathen wine names, would be enough to confuse them. They're scared of everything and when you hear them talk it's pretty clear that they're barely literate. I wouldn't be surprised if they did find that menu nervous-making and pretty impenetrable, really, strange as that seems at first glance. It'd be like a somewhat dim second grader trying to read that menu and pick a meal. When a lot of unknown words and concepts come up and you're not a competent reader, you can find yourself baffled by the whole thing, I think.

They are idjits. The same way any successful marketer does, I think. Showing a certain group of people that he understands and sympathizes with their greatest needs and desires and then laying out clearly and in detail how joining his program will meet those needs and desires. He's got a marketing pitch down pat for insecure but arrogant men who want a guarantee that they can be little petty tyrants with large entourages in both this world and the next, I'd say.

Definitely not riveting. It has a heck of a lot of leghumper reviews, though. So maybe TLC is onto something, hoping that a renewed release of the book and the new "series" will help drive interest in one another. Where'd you see that there was a different publisher, though? I looked on Amazon, and they still list it under the original publisher, Simon & Schuster's Christian imprint, Howard Books. I have a strong feeling that they do think this. Having been told it over and over and over and over and over, not only by their parents but by the whole Gothard crew, every "book" they've ever been permitted to read, etc.