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Churchhoney

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Everything posted by Churchhoney

  1. People with an urge to control their children and their women....and people who are fearful enough to have enthusiastically joined and obeyed and risen to prominence in cults that preach the absolute necessity of controlling everybody and not trusting the ability of anybody' (including yourself) to behave properly without an "accountability partner" present....and people who remain in those cults for decades and still remain in them today......People like that don't have any of the normal habits of freedom.....And the Duggars fit into all those categories. People who've lived as they've lived all these years and who've belonged to a cult of the kind they belong to don't trust freedom or people acting as individuals without somebody there to check whether they're adhering to the group belief system....and they certainly don't have the habit of granting freedom to their children (even their grown children) or to women. They've lived so long with the idea that this would be opening the door to all kinds of evils, the devil included, that it's simply unthinkable to them. .... And they cluster with a crowd who mostly believe and behave very similarly to them. So there's little opportunity for them even to know people with significantly different habits and beliefs. As @GeeGolly just mentioned, you don't see Duggars running around one at a time. People often remark on how Duggarling wives, especially, and spouses generally seem to be pretty much glued to their partners. "Stage five clinger" gets used for a lot of female Duggarlings. That's the family habit and it's so ingrained that anything else has become pretty unthinkable, it looks like. And the Duggarlings have now included a string of young men in their late teens and 20s (We're up to about 8 now who've attained that age...).....Yet they don't go look for jobs with somebody other than Jim Bob; they don't try to attend college or join the military; they don't try out for a local sports team or band. They're never seen with girlfriends until they turn up with an essentially arranged courtship with someone in the cult. Even the one who's running for the state legislature is never seen except in the company of an older sister, his twin brother and sometimes their father. And so far none of those boys seems to have chafed against that enough for any dissension over it to be visible. Even famous rebel Josh cried in the driveway when he and his wife and children left for the job in DC. In how many families would you see every single male live passively in the hive this way, right straight through their teenage years and their 20s? That could only happen in a family where being part of the hive mind is such an ingrained habit that nobody even thinks of doing something else. And we see the same thing with the other families connected to them who have similar beliefs and belong to similar groups. The Duggars are very little different in this regard from Steve Maxwell, for example. No habits of freedom or going out on their own at all. No way is Jana allowed to live an independent life. Nor does she want to -- at least consciously --I expect. She's developed the same set of habits and beliefs as everybody around her. And it's no surprise. I lived in a house of fearful controlling people with no habits of freedom. And most of the time I lived there I intended to leave when I turned 18. But while I was there, I never tried to live an individual life outside the group mold. The potential consequences just looked way too big. It wouldn't have been worth risking the earthquake that could have made it harder for me to leave, lost me the money I'd squirreled away and so on..............So I was in the habit even though I wanted to escape the situation. And after I left, for more years than I care to think of I unconsciously glued myself to whoever was in my proximity -- acting just the way my family acted. I drove several roommates and boyfriends half crazy with this before I actually understood what I was doing and why and got myself therapied out of it......I only learned that I did it when I overhead a conversation with my current clung-to partner....I then discovered that nobody had ever seen anything like it .... I did not have the habit of freedom for years, even after claiming my freedom. So few people live that way today that it seems impossible that an adult can be caught up in that. But it happens.
  2. It's painful to imagine how many sermons -- and most of them bad sermons -- those poor kids have listened to......and have yet to listen to. Didn't notice any grooming-for-molestation photos at this conference. So if that reflects the truth, I guess we should be thankful for small favors.
  3. California's rules were basically the same as everybody else's who had them. So it makes me wonder what the Seewalds et al were actually doing when they pretended to be staying at home.....Or whether they were only staying at home to appear relatable to the nation for the show (the be-all and end-all of Jessa's life, for ever and ever, amen...) Or maybe the Vs were so used to getting their free coffee at coffee shops and free meals at every restaurant in the LA area that limiting access to those opportunities hit them the way closing all the supermarkets would have hit the rest of us....😁
  4. Yep, the FTC has warned them more than once about the unsupported claims they make. Most recently for claiming on social media that their stuff is effective against Covid 19.
  5. That "smile" on Kaylee is absolutely horrifying. Although perhaps not much more horrifying than the photo of the Bates boys up above. This whole damn page terrifies me. Looking at my fellow citizens here..."God Bless America," indeed.
  6. Accountability partner? And now all the other females (and almost all the males) among the older half of Duggarlings are married and, sort of, gone, and thus above and beyond fulfilling such a workaday chore for an inferior being old spinster?"
  7. Thanks. Ever since I wrote that, I've had the haunting feeling that I'd seen Jackson sing with them, too. And this was it......!
  8. Is this the group that sings together? I think it might be.....I'm sure Josiah isn't part of the singing group, and I kind of think Jackson isn't either. but Joe definitely is. So....maybe they intend to use it as their PR picture....They don't seem to sing in public that much but they do once in a while. Maybe they'd send a picture around to solicit gigs or something.
  9. I think that's an excellent point. ... As I look at Jed!, though, I see not just a punchable face but an unelectable face....So maybe there's an upside. 😁
  10. If people don't overwork, where will they get the money to give to grifters like you and your in-laws, Jer?
  11. Since they're Gothard and her parents -- or at least her father -- are also Gothard....and involved in a Gothard-related ministry, with Dwain Swanson...seems to me her parents would be inclined to see the chance to spend more time with a bunch of Gothardy people -- and maybe especially with a bunch of Gothardy girls and young women as a real boon for their daughter, actually..... She only has brothers at her own house, right? ....So since they probably home school, per the Gothard recommendations and the Swanson and Duggar traditions, I wonder if her parents don't just see her hanging out a lot at the TTH and maybe at Anna and Josh's place as an opportunity for her to imbibe more of the female Gothardy traditions and spend time with more like-minded girls than she gets to at home. We learned from one teenage girl the other day that Anna mentoring girls and young women is a thing. And when you think of it, in totally patriarchal Gothard world, Anna is probably considered by many a woman's role model for the ages. For her to cheerfully stay with and still aim to produce a gazillion children with as big a jerk as Josh probably thrills the hearts of pretty much all the Gothard men everywhere, and I'm not being sarcastic. She's the epitome of the woman they want, who will let any Gothard man who'll have her be her leader and smile about it and produce a ton of babies for him. She's probably greatly admired by many in their world. Knowing who Emily is and more details of her life makes me really doubt the darker suspicions about why she's been seen so much with Duggars, including Anna and Josh. I always did kind of doubt them, but now really I'm inclined to think that, since her dad, at least, is probably as full-on Gothard and JB-and-M-obsessed as Dwain Swanson, her parents most likely see the chance to have Anna as a kind of mentor and Michelle's daughters as companions as a great opportunity. Gothardism is shrinking to the point that there probably aren't very many other Gothardite families around for her to meet and hang with any more. And while that shrinking seems great to me, it probably seems absolutely terrible to them.
  12. Yeah, that's was stupid of me! You're right.....I was so used to all these people's names out there that it didn't occur to me..... It should have1 Do you know whether this is the only one of Michelle's relatives who's part of the Gothard crowd or whether she has multiple relatives who are also involved in that?
  13. Is Emily the daughter of Michelle's nephew Will Peters (Michelle's oldest sister's son)? .... Cause if she is, then I believe she's one of only four kids. That's a tiny drop in the bucket for these people. So they certainly shouldn't have lost custody of any children for financial reasons, at any rate. Makes it seem a lot more likely to me that she's just hanging with Duggars -- either just to hang or maybe to have Anna "mentor" her as a future Christian wife and multi-mother....? Courageous Men of the Word is the group that Will Peters and Dwain Swanson apparently created together. And based on their Facebook page, it looks like they get gigs -- at Gothard events and seemingly some non-Gothard events as well.....So if this is Emily's family, they'd appear to be doing as well as most of these people appear to be doing....And since the guy works for Swanson -- who also does lawns and some construction, I think -- I'd imagine Will could could pick up some extra non-ministering wages from Swanson as well.... https://www.facebook.com/CourageousMenofTheWord (If Will Peters isn't Emily's dad and I'm barking up the wrong family tree....Well, consider this just another information nugget about the weird Dwain Swanson network of lawn-mowing ministering men....and their apparent Bible-study-organizations-for-profit-but-not-much-profit-so-far-it-would-appear.....which for some reason fascinates me Ikind of)......) Are any of Meechelle's other relatives involved with the Gothard people or is Will Peters the only one? Anybody know?
  14. Not any more, though. Henry downed them while finishing off the family-sized jar of pickle brine. 😁
  15. Well, actually, I wasn't naming a specific program at all! I was just naming the best-known Duke researcher who studies this area, Harold Koenig! He doesn't have a program. He just studies other people's programs (many, many of them). So I wasn't describing a program -- sorry that that's unclear. I was just describing the kinds of things Koenig has researched and verified as effective and explaining why I think they're not similar to what the Vuolos are saying. If you don't mind my asking, do you know which Duke researcher(s) did study the program you attended?
  16. That story is heavily Gothard influenced, I think. He pushes and pushes the absolute necessity of forgiveness of those who push you around or abuse you .... And, much much worse, what he's mostly envisioning, clearly, is someone younger or a female being abused by somebody like an oldest-brother-the-leader-of-our-home who has power over that person. (can also be applied to bitches and jerks of other ages and sexes, too, of course -- all those people would like to insist they be let off the hook by your forgiveness...) Gothard pushes the forgiveness thing most strongly in his stuff about sexual abuse, harping on it in his essays about modern-day abuse and citing biblical examples and such. And I'm sure this is all mainly projection based on his own desires, too. It's forgiveness that's designed to be a kind of acknowledgment on the part of the victimized person that they are at least in part -- and perhaps entirely -- at fault. (EMLTA: Which is the unspoken reason why under the Gothard rules-of-childraising idiots JB and M lived by, you don't just "forgive" the person, you pay them compensation (or tribute, in historical terms) like in the jewel-box story. ) Forgiveness has its virtues but anybody who's "learned" about it from Gothard has internalized a sick, sick version of it, if you ask me.
  17. You attended one of the programs studied by Harold Koenig, right? And it was a non-denominational program? I have no idea whether you would agree with the way I see this (and, of course, you're the person with the experience -- not me....I've only read some of Koenig's work, not experienced any programs that he's researched the success of) ....But to me the difference between your experience and what I take the Vuolos to be saying is that they basically give this order: Believe in a specific Jesus -- ours -- and your problems will disappear because your problems were caused by your lack of faith, period. They weren't caused by any other issues or confusions in your mind or body, so no spiritual practice or greater understanding of self or any such thing will cure them. They'll be cured by faith in the real Jesus (ours) alone. Whereas, I think the programs Koenig has verified focus not on faith alone, and definitely not on the validity of one particular faith above others, but on spiritual practice/religious practice alongside gaining understanding of what's going on inside you as a means of healing. Koenig's tested the power of spiritual practice as a means of healing in multiple religious contexts, such as Islam. And he's found it successful in many cases. And you mentioned that the program you attended was non-denominational, correct? So to me there's a huge difference between spiritual practices, religious practice and using those things as part of a search for understanding of self and the Vuolo/MacArthur version which, as I understand it, attributes healing solely to asserting your strong faith in one particular religious icon, Jesus as understood by Protestants/Calvinists. Jeremy Vuolo preaches strongly against Catholicism, for example, as a satanic belief and clearly wouldn't agree that someone could heal their anxiety or depression by embracing Jesus as he's conceived of by the Catholic church. Catholics (and Muslims, Buddhists, etc., of course) are lumped with all the other nonbelievers, in his theology, and they don't get healing from their belief, according to the Vuolo/MacArthur theology, as I understand it. Only a specific belief conveys that. Anyway, thanks very much for sharing your experience here. This question is definitely way more nuanced than we've been portraying it.... I don't see any appreciation of that nuance in what the Vuolos or MacArthur say, however! I read them as promising a very specific magic pill, which alone has power. Whereas I see others -- such as those who conduct programs like Koenig has verified -- as talking about spiritual ways of living one's life and coming to an understanding of self, which occurs and can occur in multiple cultures and traditions. Mileage on all of this may vary, obviously.
  18. Jingle's following her leader, the way she's supposed to as a devout "Christian wife," when it comes to smugness. Jer's positively radiated smugness ever since he came on the scene. And he seems to be living a charmed life, too, which can only make it worse. (Plus, now he models himself on hideously -- successfully -- smug John MacArthur.) And before Jer, Jingle's assigned leader was JB, also as smug as they come. Without some act of rebellion (Ha!) -- or at least a major reversal of fortune -- I suppose smugness is all anyone can actually expect from her. But....so so smug....based on literally zero accomplishment. (She's even less accomplished than her decidedly unaccomplished husband.) I do wonder how long smugness can survive that, especially when you don't have nearly as much money as you pretend and aspire to have....
  19. Okay, so this is, like, seven kids painting with watercolors at a table... What in the world is the huge deal? Why is this described as some horrible mess of unheard-of proportions that's also some uniquely rich and thrilling experience to remember for a lifetime?......making it imperative that the Duggs urge and enjoin everyone to do it, despite the huge burden it all is.... since apparently they're the only people who've ever thought of painting watercolors with a bunch of kids at a table? Much ado about such a bunch of phony baloney. Meeechelle, if you cherish all this so much, name one specific enthusiasm of each of your children and grandchildren (and name each kid, too). "Loving Jesus" and "helping mothers with their babies" don't count. I'll wait.
  20. Yep, definitely. JM is definitely not the only one. If somebody preaches this, I can only assume that they themselves have lived very lucky lives and have little to no empathy with other people......Or they're in deep denial of some kind. Because it seems both really ignorant concerning the human condition.....and cruel. Something only the very arrogant and self-satisfied could really go around pushing on people. Jer has enthusiastically signed up for all this and clearly tailors all his related statements to stay in line with this evil crap. So I'm inclined to think that his lack of empathy is pretty much a given. He's not some innocent who doesn't know what he's preaching. He knows -- or else everything he says wouldn't be in line with it, and it is.....nothing truly empathetic ever creeps in, which increasingly horrifies me as I see it go on and on and on. I used to think maybe he was just a dumbass who doesn't see the implications of this -- and I do think that there are probably MacArthur hangers-on who do fall into this category. But Jer's stuff is so consistently constructed to toe the line on this that I conclude he is a dumbass but also really really not a nice person (albeit one who might possibly sometime somewhere change to at least some extent if he ever stopped being so dang lucky himself...A lucky life sets people up for believing this "theology," certainly.) MacArthur faced a lawsuit stemming from this in the '80s, though it was ultimately thrown out. He pretended he's regrouped, but to my eye he still says exactly the same stuff. It's an 1988 case that was argued in the California Supreme Court -- Nally v. Grace Community Church. And the court ended up dismissing it because they decided the law didn't require clergy to have exactly the same duties of care and so on that doctors and therapists and the like have, even when clergy offered supposed counseling The case is horrific, so it's best not to read it! But it does demonstrate the callousness of JM's regime and his "thinking.." Which Jer embraces fully, as far as I can see.
  21. This is pretty much out of the MacArthur playbook, I think.......... Anybody who seeks help or commiseration for any problem or issue from human sources -- or feels they might need those things -- is immediately told that basically every complaint that any human has is due to the fact that they aren't fervent enough in their faith in Jesus. And if you're seeking psychiatric help or protesting to change laws you think are unjust, or any such activity, what you're really proving is that you, personally, aren't being adequately faithful to Jesus. Because if you are being adequately faithful to Jesus, then a) things are going well for you and b) you're so focused on Jesus that you never even notice the petty things like anxiety or racism that you complain of.... Of course, I'm 100-percent certain that none of this is believed to apply when it's MacArthur or his minions who feel they have a grievance or difficulty. Then, I'd guess, the problem is a result of Satan (and his human tools...) choosing to come after you because of your extreme holiness and prominence among Jesus's warriors. 😈 I will say this: These two do keep hammering on the same theology. Jer knows the party line and sticks to it. And has made sure Jingle knows and regularly spouts it, too, looks like.
  22. I'm pretty sure it's a style. And, actually, to me this one looks like a style, unlike the one with her hair down from a few days ago, which did just look to me like an accidental mess, especially the big bump of hair that she had on the top of her head on the right side.....I actually think this one's kind of cute! 😲😷 Picture looks too much like a stock photo to me, of course. But, still....don't really hate the hair.... https://beautifieddesigns.com/messy-hairstyles/
  23. Yeah, I doubt Henry's in such dire need of immediate electrolyte replenishment that he needs to drink pickle juice to restore his body to balance. .... He's not finishing up a marathon or anything.....Likely to get him hooked on salty crap instead....
  24. A Duggarling takes hours to iron one pocket square. 😈
  25. Maybe it's just a fuck-you-internet, as usual? "You heathens think the Duggars and our SOTDRTs don't produce highly educated, intellectual people! Ha!!! We have the next Einstein in our midst (except ours won't believe in science...)!"
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