Cheezwiz

Yep - fortunately those two were really on the ball, and definitely sped up the investigation. This was the one difference from other similar cases I've seen, in that the murdered spouse was not presented in a saintly manner. Not that she deserved in any way to have anything bad happen to her, but Shannan was certainly not likeable. Her constant staging and filming of her life was exhausting, and she was clearly very controlling. It looked like a nightmare marriage, plus the added conflict with the in-laws. I would have been interested to know a bit more detail about how their relationship began and evolved, and what each of their familial relationships were like. Those poor little girls.

I came into this not knowing anything about the case at all. I was expecting there to be some sort of wrinkle or twist to the story, but nope, it was another Scott Peterson situation. Why do people think they'll get away with this? The editing was well done for a standard story - there was certainly an abundance of material for the filmmakers to sift through and organize. Something about all the footage of their life really depressed me in a way I can't quite put my finger on - the cookie cutter Mcmansion homes, the just-so decor. Something seemed very sterile and airless. Maybe it was the gap between the happy life Shannan was trying to present on social media, and the reality she was actually living. So heartbreaking seeing all that footage of those adorable smiling little girls, and the devastation on the faces of Shannan's family in court. These stories always leave me wondering if there is any way we can spot psychopaths in our midst. Not the brilliant conniving mastermind psychopaths we see in movies, but ordinary average ones who live in our neighbourhoods or work with us.

Wow. Powerful Statement. And she was just one of God knows how many.

An excellent example - "I'll Be Gone In The Dark" managed to piece together complex info from many different locations and times, while at the same time layering it with the author's personal story, to make a cohesive understandable whole. I was gripped all the way through and marvelled at the editing while I was watching. By comparison, "The Vow" is a flabby unstructured mess. With only a few episodes left, I'm doubtful that they'll be able to pull all the various threads together. My experience is the same - I've been trying to fill in the gaping holes in this series, by cruising around on the net, and the info out there is much more concise and compelling than what is being presented on the show.

Yes, this has what's been bothering me about the series so far. I won't post here as not to "spoilerize" in case the remaining episodes cover it, but Keith was allegedly involved in even MORE heinous stuff than the sex slave/branding scam he had running. And women high-up in the organization (meaning ones he was schtupping) actively aided and abetted him. Thus far, the series has danced around this stuff. If even a portion of the allegations I've read about him are true, Keith is not merely a swindler or cult svengali, but an absolute 100% psychopath. And like others, I'm wondering why the female founders (particularly Nancy & Lauren Salzman) get to slither away without much fanfare. I'm guessing it's because they may not have been as financially entangled in the organization? Because it's the financials that people ultimately got nailed on.

She does seem to have a perverse fixation on her brand. By that I mean she seems to now be using it as her "brand" (pardon the pun). Initially I thought it might be a quirk of editing on the show, but she chose it as the image (pants unzipped) for her book cover. I'll spare everyone the image, but my jaw dropped when I saw it.

I too am utterly mystified as to how this short word-salad spouting dork managed to have such a hold on so many people. I've read some articles that delved into the kind of control he exerted over the women who co-habitated with him, and it's absolutely horrifying what they subjected themselves to just to be in his company. I think that's why I keep watching the show, draggy as it is, in the hopes of gleaning some insight into how all of these people were so blinded. It's unfathomable to me.

Here's an old article from Vanity Fair published in 2010 that details the Bronfman sisters involvement in the cult. I doubt the show will go into as much detail about their history with NXIVM. A long but interesting read: https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2010/11/bronfman-201011

I really thought that by this point they would have gotten into more of the nuts and bolts workings of the organization, and revealed more of the nefarious activities of the founders, but I'm kind of losing hope that this will happen. I hadn't heard the revelations about Keith & Pam Cafrit posted upthread, and they're pretty horrifying. Because I knew very little of the story going in other than snippets on the news ("blah blah sex cult, blah blah TV actors I'd never heard of"), I was pulled into the show, but it's not turning out to be as compelling as I had initially hoped. It's not edited in a way that makes timelines comprehensible, and is full of unnecessary arty filler. The more I watch, the more it seems like an exercise in retro-active guilt assuagement/image burnishing for our main subjects rather than a hard look at the organization and the creepy-ass people who founded it.

Yep! That was my thought when watching this episode. That quote seems to apply to most of the subjects of this documentary. It was one bit of insight in what was otherwise to me, another miss of an episode. There are only three left, and I feel like the last three have been mostly filler.

I have been wondering that about Salzman the whole time. Extra icky knowing her daughter was also being strung along by Raniere, and hoping to have a kid with him. Poor Boucher - even after having left all those years ago, she's still miserably hung up on Keith. Pitiful. Apart from Barbara's story which was new material, another very tedious episode of phone call footage. Still not liking Sarah very much - she was clearly getting high off of all the attention from the breaking news revelations, and not in a "maybe now justice will finally be served" way. I'm wondering how she and Nippy can afford the very luxe looking (but rather ugly) condo they're living in. Neither rent nor mortgage is cheap in Vancouver.

Wow. Just wow. Even when the vocalists are gifted, I consider a cappella performers truly annoying & terrible - they're like the musical equivalent of mimes or interpretive dancers. These people are most assuredly NOT gifted. Their rendition of "Roxanne" is what sent me off the deep end. All of this unearthed material is a hell of a lot more entertaining than the previous episode. Still trying to wrap my head around how Keith & Co. thought this would be an avenue to lots of new kool-aid imbibers and big $$$. Yeah, he's a genius alright! Also still wanna know what those Crosbys were up to in their hotel room.

OMG @pigs-in-space, thank you for uncovering this ancient thread! I am crying laughing at this particular rabbit-hole! Independent of NXIVM, who knew the dorky world of a capella was filled with so much drama! (I want to know who the Crosbys were and why they trashed their hotel room!). There were clearly people who attended this festival way back when who immediately spotted this group for the insidious cult that they were. Others ... were a bit blind. For those who don't want to read - Keith Raniere apparently thought sponsoring an a capalla fest would be the hip way to lure younger members. It sounds like what NXIVM put on was the Fyre festival of a capella competitions. I'm positively howling reading this stuff! Posts vary from "Hey man, quit complaining, you weren't forced to eat the free vegan food!" to "who cares if it's wacko cult! The performers were great!" to impassioned defence posts by Clare Bronfman. Knowing what we know now, it's very funny. In a sad way.

Not a fan myself, but also not on the hate train (yet). I'm still sort of neutral about her (the sober version at least). It will be interesting to see how she behaves with a totally different dynamic - new cast members in the mix, and if she manages to maintain her sobriety. It sounds like her head has swelled a bit from the attention she received first season, so I'm dubious about her prospects.

It's basically the bargain-basement off-brand version of Scientology! Although I doubt the course fees were any more of a bargain. I can't help thinking about the phenomenal white whale the Seagram sisters must have been when they got lured in. Can you imagine how much Raniere & Salzman's eyes must've been lighting up when they realized they'd hooked those two?

I found this episode(episode 5) extremely tedious. It took my two tries to get through it without falling asleep. I get they were in a precarious position with trying to get their stories published in the NYT, but it was just endless footage of people on the phone. This series is taking an awfully long time to get where it's going. I will keep watching because I find the psychology riveting, but man, let's move things along please. I felt sooo much second hand embarrassment for the Dalai Lama. Watching him listen while creepy obsequious little Keith tried to plead his case was pure cringe. Yuck. His Holiness and his crew should've trusted their first instincts and stayed the hell away. I'm still laughing at this! Thanks for making my night @pigs-in-space!

I was flabbergasted. I don't think it had anything to do with British design. I figure the show had to be fixed - there was no way that win was earned. I'd love to know what the real behind-the-scenes inside story was. That contestant should have been booted when they re-did the inn. Just hideous & ghastly.

Oh, right. I completely forgot about them. All the wrong people are spawning right now.

I searched Reddit as well and couldn't find the post you were referencing - can you give us a hint? a broad summation? Now my curiosity is getting the better of me!

Wait, who's the third couple? Stassi & her purse-holder, Jax & Brittany, (God help us), and who else?

Yes, exactly - if she returns to human form, human Ji-Ah may not have any memory of what is currently happening. She not love, or even recognize Tic.

Yes, she's still in there. If she sleeps with and consumes one more male, she will return to her human form with her own memories, rather than the memories of people she has consumed. Tic was supposed to be her next victim, but she realized that she was in love with him. Not sure if she will search for another final victim, or if she will choose to retain her supernatural powers.

I was so grossed out by last week's episode that I wasn't sure I could continue. Glad I watched, because I really enjoyed this episode, and was captivated by Ji-Ah's story, along with the incorporation of Korean mythology. It was also pretty gross, but didn't bother me as much as last week. Does ANYONE on this show get to have some fun non-lethal sex? The home where they lived was beautiful, but good grief, 99 souls? how the hell did they manage to clean those elaborately carved shoji-type screens after each incident? I'm the furthest thing from being an OCD clean freak, but It was all I could focus on! On another total digression, I was coveting Ji-Ah's cute winter coat. I wound up being quite engrossed & touched by Ji-Ah's and Tic's love story. I'm assuming that she's probably going to come looking for him at some point. I wonder if she will choose to bide her time and keep her supernatural abilities, or become human. Loved the recording ofJudy Garland's voice at the end. For those who were wondering, Judy was dictating a lot into a tape recorder just prior to her death for an autobiography she hoped to write. Many of the recordings wound up being drunken rants. They were lost for many years and then re-surfaced, showing just how damaged she was at the end of her life. I can't explain why, but I really loved the tie in of her story to Ji-Ah & Tic's doomed romance. This and the haunted house episode have been my favourites so far.

Ugh. Can she just go away and live in obscurity with her dork fiance and ranch dressing? Forever? Please?

Yep. THIS. Denise often couldn't get her stories straight. She ran from conflict most of the time. She often seemed "medicated" on camera. Her husband is a weirdo with a questionable business. You know what? I totally didn't care. Because the rest of the cast spent an entire season piling on, and making Himalaya mountain ranges over tiny mole-hills, beating dead horses (pardon my mixed metaphors). If Denise was lying (which I suspect she may have been), it WAS ABOUT THINGS THAT CONCERNED NO ONE ELSE. Despite being blasted and harangued at pretty much every event she attended, she never retaliated by hitting below the belt. Rinna was at her most psychotic this season, and most of the other women fell in line. They quadrupled down when they realized the fans weren't behind them. The remaining ladies better be careful what they wish for now that Brandi has been pulled back into the fold to spill tea. Because next time it might be one of them she spills on. Oh, and shut up Teddi!