BlackberryJam

We often see the assertion that GRRM is out there subverting tropes like a champ. What if he subverting the trope of the Job-like character with Sansa? What if instead of getting repeatedly beaten down before rises from the ashes to lay waste to her enemies (or you know, something else where she hurts them instead of being her) she remains the perpetual victim until she dies a gruesome death? I just keep going back to "What is Sansa's story?" v "What have we predicted is Sansa's story?" I'm thinking the fans might have been wrong all along. I'm curious to see where Littlefinger appears next. Will he get beamed to Dorne or back to Winterfell? He has the best jetpack in Westeros.

I didn't make that argument. My argument was that it was captivating and fascinating, especially to Sean C, because of the message board participation.

You may feel that way, but it's still captivated you. Whether you say you love it or hate it, Sean, you're fascinated enough by it to post here, other places, but so much effort into it. A terrible show doesn't create this near obsession to follow it. I mean, does anyone care enough to post so much about say...Zero Hour? Does anyone remember Zero Hour? That's terrible, poorly written, hot mess of TV. Game of Thrones has you, and may others who think it's a mess, watching it every week, following it, posting on message boards, writing articles, creating art and gifsets. This show is pretty damn special to fascinate so many people.

But that's the point. Sansa doesn't know any of those things. She has no idea that LF has set her up in these Perils of Pauline only so he can save her. If she knew that, she'd have acted differently. In her story right now, who can enlightened her as to LF's mechinations? Who even knows? Sansa certainly isn't going to figure it out herself that quickly and easily. LF can swoop in again and from her perspective, save her.

Oh...I don't think the characters don't make sense. The show is vastly popular with the Unsullied who seem to have a nice grasp on it. I think the characters are confusing to book readers because of their preconceived notions and expectations. But the show, well, let's be real. It's pretty freaking fabulous, whether you've read the books or not.

That's bothersome to me. Why should we always see rape from either the eyes of the rapist or the eyes of the rape observer? However, GRRM can write Sansa getting raped without writing it from her POV. It's not like he doesn't have POV characters in a chapter together and we see it from only one of those POVs. I'm not saying he will have Sansa's most likely horrific wedding night as part of the story. He may kill her off first. And to be clear on GRRM, from his live journal... So...the question becomes, how could D&D have Sansa arrive at the same place if they have "totally destroyed" her character as some have argued? Look, until the show finishes and until books are done, this idea that D&D have done something horrible to Sansa and betrayed her character is premature. If Sansa is a virgin queen or has a beautiful loving wedding night with say...Podrick, then those arguments have merit. On the other hand, if Sansa dies because she's just another red herring, suffers under a brutal husband, or gets a terrible horrible beatdown before rising from the ashes, D&D haven't done anything but preserve and portray the character GRRM has written.

How does Sansa contact Stannis for help? I've seen that LF line all over ...Tumblr I think? It doesn't make sense in the least. Not sure why you're posting this quoting me, but that's fine. I'm not one of the people up in arms over the scene. I've been fully supportive of the beautiful cinematography and amazing acting and ...yeah, I even made the joke about the height difference between IR and ST while Ramsay questions her about having sex with a dwarf. But I think we all realize it's a TV show. Some people just extrapolate TV to real life experiences and see TV as a reflection of societal acceptance and norms. I think that's a mistake. People don't abuse other people because they watched Game of Thrones. People abuse other people because of their own issues.

This video is everything I have ever wanted. Jaime Lannister goes emo lounge singer.

Whatever we, the viewing public, feel about the scene, Sophie Turner had some feelings of her own. From her EW interview. For Alfie and Sophie both, these are the kinds of roles actors generally love. I seriously doubt either of them feels like they are struggling through bad material. I'm pretty sure that emotion is being owned by Nikolaj Coster-Waldau at the moment ;)

Why, could you possibly suggesting that the rape of a pretty, pale, delicate girl is worse than rape in general? ...I have been getting that impression from people and it's very uncomfortable. I have issues with the act, not with the victim. Are people really upset with rape of a woman based on choice of victim? ETA: My first sentence was supposed to be read with an "oh my word" fake shock voice. I didn't make that clear. Apologies!

And Sansa knows where Stannis is, how to reach him, Stannis' opinions on the Starks....how? Did I miss that strategy session she sat in on? That's why I ran through people who are in present in Winterfell now and can even send a message for her.

Let's run that. Sansa blames LF. So she hates and doesn't trust Ramsay (rapey husband), Roose (father-in-law who killed her mother and brother), LF, Myranda (husband's hateful creepy mistress) and Theon (guy who betrayed her family and to her belief burned her brothers.) Who does she turn to for help? She must have help. She's a girl alone. Options: Random servant woman. Pros - The North Remembers! Cons - Who is she, can she be trusted and what can a servant do to help? Walda. Pros - Is a Frey and has family support. Cons - Apparently loves Roose and is carrying his child. No motivation to help Sansa. ... ... ... And what? If Sansa turns on LF, she is totally and completely alone and has to throw the Hail Mary of putting a candle in a window and hoping it works. ETA: Mya Stone, yes. Everything in your post and what you wrote, yes.

Why do we (and I mean the posters and the fans) think that Baelish cares whether or not Sansa was raped? Or brutalized? Or beaten? Other than his clear desire to fuck her, what kindness has he really shown her? Every thing he has done has been to put Sansa in a precarious position to make her more dependent on him. Why would this marriage be any different? LF likes to set things up, create chaos and then use it to his advantage. So he marries Sansa to Ramsay. Scenario 1. Ramsay treats her well. Petyr comes in and says, 'See Sansa, I saved you! Ramsay is kind to you, but it is Roose who killed your mother. Manipulate Ramsay and let's take Roose down.' Scenario 2. Ramsay brutalizes her. Petyr comes back and says 'Sansa my sweet, I didn't know.' All the while he insinuates that if she we smarter and stronger she could have manipulated Ramsay, thereby destroying what self-esteem she has left. Then he says, 'Those horrible Boltons. Look at what they've done to you. Let's take them down.' Either way, Baelish wins. So again, why does it matter if he knew about Ramsay's predilections or not if it doesn't matter in his plan? If we hadn't seen Cersei having Qyburn send the letter, I would have thought Baelish had some how faked it so he could get the hell out of Winterfell prior to the wedding. He's managed to keep his hands clean in Sansa's eyes. A Sansa who is dependent on Baelish is a Sansa who is good for Baelish.

Any discussion of that prophecy that differs from the show might be spoilery, so I don't think anyone can. Just note though, that the prophecy never says "Younger, more beautiful queen." It says, which doesn't differ from the source, that Cersei will be queen until there comes "another, younger and more beautiful." Not necessarily another "queen" although people like to say YMBQ all the time. It really should be A,YMB. So Sansa doesn't have to be a queen to fulfill the prophecy.

Oh I saw those. It's like bad color guard and dance routines. Even hot Nikolaj can't save it.

I didn't argue they needed a rape to make Sansa important. I argued that the story of Jeyne Poole's rape/torture and the resulting fallout is important, so to invest the reader, the put Sansa in the role because for most likely very good reasons, what goes on with Sansa in the Vale was cut. The Vale is probably gone because it has no importance to endgame. And it's boring. I'd rather they send Sansa on a mission to Dorne to rescue Myrcella than watch the snorefest of unimportant Vale stuff. "Next on Game of Thrones, Sansa babysits, eats lemoncakes and chats with Myranda Royce!" Ugh. We are still seeing the set up of the Winterfell story, and so far, it's been pretty damn interesting. You've got Baelish setting all sides against each other. You've got the Boltons isolated with no allies in Winterfell and you've got Stannis on the move, all the while playing out an alliance through marriage story that could go horribly wrong. And we still don't know exactly what game Baelish is playing, but he's got the Vale knights on the move and Cersei emotionally invested. Again, GRRM never promised Sansa a happy ending, nor did he promise to keep her safe. Or empower her. Or give her any badass moments. Come on, GRRM has planned death, pain and destruction for everyone. So, why should Sansa be immune? And you pretty much didn't address any of my points except saying D&D didn't put a lot of time into it. How much screen time has Sansa and the rest of Winterfell had this season? Hasn't Sansa been in every episode?

Are you suggesting they shouldn't have cast Sophie Turner at age 13 but instead cast a different actress who was say 15 when the show started so she'd be 20 instead of 18 when it came time for this story? That's troublesome and a disservice to Sophie. "Sorry Soph, X story which is going to end up as a tough scene for viewers to watch would be set to film when you're 18, and we think it would be better if the actress is 20, so we aren't going to hire you, even though you're totally awesome. NEXT ACTRESS!" This story, for whatever reason, is important for endgame. D&D have cut the stuff that is not important, like the Greyjoys, the Vale lords, Lady Stoneheart, the Northern conspiracy, Tyrion's wanderings, where whores go, and condensed plots, such as Dorne. You're reasoning backwards here. You're saying: 1. D&D love rape. 2. Jeyne Poole, Ramsay torture, Theon finding Theon again and Sansa losing her virginity have no value towards endgame. 3. D&D kept the story of Jeyne Poole, Ramsay torture, Theon finding Theon again and Sansa losing her virginity and combined them into one making Sansa the key player instead of keeping Sansa a pure, precious snowflake. 4. This was done only for purposes of shock value. 5. Therefore D&D love rape. D&D have put a lot of time and effort into this story. It's not a throwaway scene like Pod the Sex God. This is a big, important story, the marriage, the North, Sansa, Theon, Ramsay, the Boltons, this is big for endgame. This isn't a throwaway plot for funsies.

Yes, DigitalCount. I can see that. Sansa had no reason to trust Theon about anything ever. Now she does. And this is Sansa's story, clearly. Sansa doesn't get some pass from having suffered that she is now immune to bad things. I mean, this is GRRM here. Horrible things happen over and over. While he's not POV, let's just put ourselves in Rickon's place. He's five in the beginning. Five. Unable to process what's happening. Starving, alone, frightened, sent off with a virtual stranger to stay with strangers, if he even makes it. He doesn't suddenly have the horrible things free pass, neither does Bran, neither does Ayra (who spent part of her episode getting viciously caned by her only 'friend'). Fuck. Olly watched Ygritte kill his parents in front of him, and didn't the Thenn announce he was going to eat them? Yet no one gives a fuck about Olly. (I can't stand Olly.) Olly gets no horrible things free pass. GRRM never promised empowerment or happy endings or ...less than painful violent deaths for anyone. Sansa isn't 'owed' anything as a character. Oh...and being raped doesn't prevent her from becoming a player. Suggesting that she's somehow less or stupider or unable to take action because she was raped is kind of disgusting.

No offense, Danny. But I thought the last episode was your last straw and you were emphatic about not watching? I don't care if people watch or don't watch. I'm not saying you have to watch. I'm just wondering if you're going to watch next week and then announce that you're not watching? It's a valid position to be disgusted with and not want to watch the show. I totally get that. I don't get people, and not just you, but in other places, announcing one week they are not going to watch, then watching, posting about how terrible the show is, and announcing they are not going to watch. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

Where did you find that? Thanks.

Uhm. No. Sorry, but that's stupid. The purpose of Theon crying was to make Theon the voice of the audience. Fuck, it's not that hard. Tyrion was the voice of the audience ripping on Dany's mad ruling skillz. Theon's face is the horror of the audience watching what happens to Sansa. Dude knows little to nothing about directing.

The whole season is Cersei playing hangman with herself...she's just too stupid to realize it.

Bronn is so dead. There was poison on that blade and he is going to die a slow, painful one unless someone puts him out of his misery. Poor sweeting singing Bronn. I would love for Jaime to sing The Dornishman's Wife over Bronn's grave. The Sand Snakes are just terrible. Ellaria had her 'Bosley goes badass' moment with her Charlie's Angels and it was dumb. These actors should be bringing it, they should be elevating the dialogue. Instead it's just like community theatre bad. I really felt like the Dornish scenes did not belong in this episode. They would have been better served in Episode Five. The lighter tone did not serve the darkness. Tyrion and Jorah were amazing, just amazing. Iain Glenn was fantastic and he gets the award for this episode of showing emotions without a sound. I also loved Tyrion as the voice of the audience assessing Dany. Thank you! Cersei is a dumb fuck. She's so being set up and I think Baelish sent her the necklace in a viper mouth. It would fit with his plan to manipulate her into into authorizing the Vale people to march on Winterfell. Cersei has also set precedent by letting the High Sparrow arrest the wedded and bedded Queen. I just want to hold up a picture of Lancel to her and say, "See this guy? Remember fucking him and having him help you with that whole regicide thing? He's a sparrow. You think he's going to protect your lameass?" Oh Cersei, so pretty. So stupid. And I know this might be too soon for some people, but did anyone else get a giggle when Ramsay was talking about Sansa not wanting to bang a dwarf while she stood there towering over him? Bwhhwhahaha. Hilarious and what a great shot.

There is an episode next week. They are not skipping a week for Memorial Day. All of the Winterfell scenes have been designed to show that the Bolton's do not have the support of the Northern lords. The wedding was just another part of that.

I know! Isn't it thrilling?