BlackberryJam

Maybe she gets word that Sansa committed suicide. I mean, Ramsay could push that story and use Myranda's corpse in place of Sansa. If Sansa is dead, that makes him the widower of the last known living Stark. Brienne hears Sansa is dead ....maybe with a near miss of actually finding Sansa, like passing her in the woods or something, then she heads south to hunt for Arya. Maybe even Brienne and Pod are talking about Sansa overhears about Arya being alive, but then Brienne talks about Jaime and Sansa decides to stay hidden.

What about #TUT for short? Maybe an ice pyramid with a big glowing blue eye on it for the symbol?

I didn't say anyone is whining, but if that's how you want to characterize your own posts, that's fine with me. I did not suggest you, or anyone else, was whining. I'll accept your opinion if you felt you were whining, but I really don't think that was your goal here, so let's set that aside.I took umbrage with invalidating someone's opinion or suggesting they shouldn't comment because they haven't read the books(fully), when I have read the books and I agree with her opinion. I would agree that the plots are different, but the stories are the same. The difference between S1 Jaime (attacking Ned in the street, ordering his men killed) and S5 Jaime (keeping his own counsel, trying to avoid war) is massive and remarkable. I do not particularly like Dorne, in books or show (hated everything about the Sand Snakes, books and show), but the story of Jaime changing is still happening, just in a different setting with different plot movers. I like the Riverlands better, because it was more Jaime than the mere pittance we got, but I can't deny that his story (while not caught up with the books) is essentially the same. If you can't see it, you can't see it. I fully accept your statement of your own abilities and don't question that. However, I can see it and find it fairly obvious. I'm with Chris in that it seems to me that D&D are putting the characters where they need to be, but taking shortcuts doing it. The show isn't just giving us hints about what's going to happen in the books, they are telling us outright. Shireen dies as a sacrifice, Stannis still loses and he dies. Selyse dies. Tyrion and Dany meet up. Myrcella dies. How it happens will be different, but it happens.

DigitalCount, Jaime spends quite a bit of time thinking about how he'd like to knock Cersei's teeth in, thinking of her as a whore, I think he might even inner monologue her as the queen of whores. He's a total Bitter Betty. I mean, I love Jaime and he's one of my favorites, but the way he thinks of Cersei after his talk with Tyrion is pretty disturbing. But you know, I'm okay with it, because I hate Cersei. I just wish he hated her for reasons other than the infidelity. blixie, nksarmi was discounting Audreythe2nd's opinions because she hadn't read the books. I'm just pointing out, as a book reader, I agree with her. But hey...you know what...I DO WIN! I AM THE WINNER! Now gimme mah trophy!

I've read the books and I absolutely agree with everything Audreythe2nd said. I think Cersei is portrayed as a disgusting human with no redeeming values on the show, while in the books, we can actually understand the basis of her crazy which makes her someone sympathetic. Show Cersei though? Just horrific. I also disagree about Jaime. I think the big problem here is that book readers expect Jaime's arc to be portrayed a certain way and this "they aren't showing his redemption arc!" complaints are really, "they aren't showing his redemption arc the way I wanted/expected them to show it." There are a multitude of book readers who have never forgiven Jaime for Bran. So, of course there are show watchers who have never forgiven Jaime for Bran. The show gave us so many touching Jaime and Brienne scenes that Jaime's breaking away from Cersei is clear, even if it is not how it's portrayed in the books. And really, in the books, Jaime's mantra of Lancel, the Kettlebacks and Moon Boy is really rather revolting and misogynistic.

I can see this happening, but I also think there is a good chance that she tells him what's happening sometime before they arrive. Either that or he will know she's lying to him. Brienne isn't one to dissemble well. Jaime spent his Riverlands journey getting smarter. I think he figures out something, and pushes her to tell, she reveals, then Jaime chooses to go with her and they...do something. Jaime has been missing for weeks at the end of Dance. Pod and Hyle could already be dead and so they take off together without ever going back to LSH. Brienne and Jaime sneak Pod and Hyle out, maybe battling a few brothers and someone dies (hopefully Hyle, but probably Pod). Jaime manages to talk to Thoros who he knows from Pyke, who is disenchanted with LSH and what's happening with the Brotherhood, and Thoros arranges some deal. Or yes, Jaime agrees to just sacrifice himself for a boy (Pod) to bring his character full circle, but then Brienne stands for him and all that. So many possibilities.But "Brienne totally fools Jaime and he ambles along after her not suspecting anything only to be gobsmacked by her betrayal" seems not to follow from what we know of their characters and arcs. I think at some point Brienne is faced with killing Jaime or killing LSH, her "Aerys" choice, and she chooses Jaime. The two (possibly four) of them head off towards the Vale where I hear there is a tournament being planned...

I have the DVDs and will hunt that down, but uh...yeah...at that point, the quote absolutely makes sense because it's a Stark POV episode, right? I seem to remember that we don't get a Jaime POV scene in the Stark camp until after he is re-captured and he witnesses the argument between Cat and Karstark.

Well, uh...Jon isn't a "good" character. He's likable and I wanted (sort of) for him to come out on top, but he betrayed his NW's vows and then turned around and betrayed Ygritte and the Wildlings only to unbetray them later and betray his brothers in the NW. That's a lot of betrayal and flipflopping for a "good" character. I understand his motivations, but that doesn't make him good. But I present to you Samwell Tarly. Probably the ONLY truly good character left standing. And I say this with Brienne as my favorite.

I also love this entire post. I came to the books after the show and honestly found so much of the books dull and unnecessary and just plain boring. I know a lot of people came to the books first and they spend so much time parsing every chapter, looking for meaning, backing up theories, making new theories and envisioning from that where each character is going. I think it's obvious that fans have put more thought into how a character's arc should go than GRRM has. Just because GRRM has Stannis say a powerful line about Shireen does not mean that GRRM does not intend to have Stannis sacrifice his daughter. So...I googled the "monster who loves killing" line searching for the source. I found as likes and not loves in spots, and attributed in some places to Benioff and in other places to Weiss. I cannot find the original source. Can someone link me? I'm curious about the timing and context of the quote because if it's pre-S3 Jaime and said from the POV of the Starks, that totally makes sense as to how Ned saw him initially, then how Cat and Robb saw him. If it's post S3, then that doesn't make a bit of sense at all. I do find that the showrunners and actors talk about the characters up to that particular point in the show, without consideration of the development to come. For Sansa's character to require being salvaged, it would have to have been destroyed. Fan spent so much time deciding what Sansa should be in from their interpretation of the books that what has been destroyed is that illusion of what Sansa would become.

It's been verified Bender did not get an advance copy of Winds. http://watchersonthewall.com/season-6-director-jack-bender-ama-confirms-he-read-an-advanced-draft-of-winds-of-winter/ There is no reliable information indicate that GRRM is done with Winds. It's all wishful thinking and GRRM being coy about it. As to editing, ...bwhahahhahahaha. GRRM don' need no editing! ... Or so he thinks.

Moving here to be more appropriate. That's from SeanC in the Spec thread. We really are watching a different show. Honestly, I have no idea who this character you're referring to is. But I'll play with your versions of these episodes, let's look at it a more realistic way. Episode 1 - Shoots manipulation wad on someone who can't help her in the future. Episode 3 - Trusts untrustworthy maid on the basis of ...nothing. Episode 4 - Has faith in unreliable drunk. Episode 6 - Not touching that one. Episode 7 - Fails. Yep. Episode 9 - Widens her rift with the ruling Queen who is drunk and has a man with a sword standing there ready to do her bidding. Trusts drunken Dontos (according to you in E2) over the man who actually protected her and who has at least the physical wherewithal to keep her safe and who is volunteering to do so. Episode 10 - Begins to develop trust for a supercreeper. We are watching a different show SeanC. I have no idea how it can be so totally different for you, but it's pretty clear we have absolutely nothing to say to one another on this subject. But yeah...I just wanted to let you know I read your list and was all "What show is that?"

Oh...I think that is exactly what the publisher wants, but GRRM doesn't co-operate. And as far as re-writes and edits, he doesn't really go for that. Spellcheck I'm sure is done as he writes.

Disagree with this in every way, but tired of beating that dead horse. However, if we can agree that Sansa is terrible can we all agree we'd be fine if she died in S6? No. Just no. That's a complete misinterpretation of the scene. Do not care, especially about that, but not going to insult another board with a long list of specifics as to why. Dude, watch S2. Make a list. It's one after another. Take off the "precious Sansa/D&D are evil" glasses. I can't beat this dead horse anymore.

What, SeanC? What? Sansa's line to Baelish couldn't have been more of a sledgehammer. That line basically smacked us in the face of "I know you want me, you're about to lose me, are you sure you want that?" I sometimes feel like we are watching a totally different show. Sansa's scenes are blatantly obvious, if not particularly clever or successful, attempts at manipulation. That's what made her not suck. But well...it does seem that there is consensus that Sansa does mostly suck. (YES!) Even if she's beloved by some. But that scene on the parapet was the only time ever I have felt a fist pump moment for Sansa. I certainly never felt it during any of her whingy times in KL. You can disagree SeanC, sure, but S2 Sansa was a total and complete bore with all that sniffling and moping and bad decisionmaking. Ugh. I actively wanted her dead that season. She has improved greatly in her level of interesting. Which is where I can see the "but Stannis wasn't a bad guy" stuff coming from. Stannis was a terrible guy. He was just an interesting and fun terrible guy that I loved having on my screen. Sure, we hate it when our favorites die, but it's not like Stannis was one of the good guys. (If there even are good guys.)

I did look at the chain of events and it's unclear whether Lyanna was abducted or raped, though that's at least what Robert believed. Point being Robert was not fighting to get rid of a terrible king and save the people of Westeros. He was fighting to get his woman back. He didn't give a flying fuck about the people of Westeros. It is Jaime who saved the people of KL from a burning fiery death. Robert's reasons for fighting for the throne were no more noble than Renly's.

Oh yes, the dinner with the Boltons was a great scene. The pre-rape convo between Ramsay and Sansa was great, watching her scrambling to find a way to get the upper hand, although she ultimately failed. Even her crypt scene with Baelish was good, when she dangled her hymen in front of him like a prize, although she failed to get him to back out or do something to stop the consummation. Sansa had one of the very best stories this season and I think it really shows how D&D love the character in that they took her unmanageable and dull Vale story line and gave her much thought-provoking and substantial. Writers who love their characters torture them all the time. It's called "writing angst" and GRRM does it with far more glee than D&D could ever imagine. Oh and Brienne's AFfC story is all about her going the wrong direction, making the wrong decision and failing when it comes to the Stark girls. The show encapsulated those 8 (I think?) chapters into about 7 minutes of screen time. So though it was hard to watch that Brienne and Sansa convo, it packed all the punch of her endless Riverlands wanderings.

I could be on board with a conversation of character growth. But I disagree about her needing a win. I think she's gotten a win in that's she's no longer Snivel von Moperson. She stood up to Myranda, she pitted Ramsay against Roose and made him question his security as heir, she bullied valuable information out of Theon (that was an amazing positive for her) she escaped her cell, and then she stared down someone pointing a deadly weapon at her, inspiring a doormat to actually DO something and then she made a choice to jump. Sansa became an active participant in her own story this season and it was pretty fucking great. Season 5 Sansa is far and away the best Sansa has ever been on the show.

Which ALL occurred because Brandon Stark demanded Rhaegar be held accountable for stealing Lyanna. And Robert always characterized the war as all about Lyanna. Robert was not fighting for some noble cause and even he didn't pretend he was.

I still disagree. Sansa's story only got interesting once she got to Winterfell. Before that, she was boring and useless. Having good things happen to her now, without her having to work her ass off and suffer for it, would turn her back into Little Miss Sominex. I would MUCH rather see Sansa have to plot, scheme, suffer and manipulate to squeak out one or two good things than to have have only good things happen to her from this point on. ETA: I mostly loved Stannis, but he was in absolutely no way a good guy. I didn't love him because he was a good guy. I loved him because seeing him on my screen entertained me. Not once did I think, "you know, that Stannis, the one who BURNS PEOPLE ALIVE, is a really good guy." It was more like, "Stannis, your grammar fetish is cracking my ass up, but you're still a flesh pyromaniac. Now grind your teeth so I can giggle some more."

I totally agree that Aerys needed to be put down, but disagree that Robert did it for any level of noble reason. Therefore, Robert did set a precedent for overthrowing a king based on ego and flimsy reason, even though that king sucked. So Renly trying to overthrow Stannis based on ego and a flimsy reason is just typical Baratheon behavior.

Except that Robert didn't go to war to keep Westeros safe. Robert went to war because Rhaegar took his precious Lyanna from him. It was Jaime who overthrew the mad man to keep people safe. Robert went to war for a woman...or perhaps because his ego was so damaged by the woman he loved going off with another (that whole story is unclear.) Renly went to war with Stannis for ego. Are they really that different?

Stannis was a pretty bad guy and he took a serious hit. I mean, he burned people alive in front of his daughter then torched his own daughter. I think that defines him as VERY BAD GUY. Sure, his army was defeated by someone worse. But Stannis was killed by someone no one defines as a villain, Brienne. (Cersei doesn't count.) Speaking of Cersei, she was arrested, tortured and forced to walk naked through town and she is also on the villain side. Oh and Littlefinger, his economic base in KL is destroyed by the Faith. The baddies have taken plenty of hits and one has been eliminated from the game in S5. And why in the world should SANSA of all characters get the "too many bad things before, now only gets good things" pass? SANSA? Really? She's only done ONE positive thing for another character EVER. (Dontos.) She spent seasons bitching at people, sniffling around KL, making stupid decisions, before being Boltonized. I mean, let's take Jaime. He was held prisoner for a year, had his hand cut off, watched his son die and watched his daughter die. Why doesn't he get the good things pass? Okay...he's kind of an ass and did bad things, but he saved Brienne more than once and enabled her to go find Sansa, saving Podrick in the process and negotiated for Bronn in Dorne. Or Theon? Good god, Theon. If anyone has suffered enough, it's Theon. (And I hate Theon.) But sure, he killed kids, betrayed people, blah blah. Still more worthy. But how about Grey Worm? Had his balls cut off, tortured, trained, repressed, beaten, stabbed and in love with a woman and can never BE with her. But Sansa is the one deemed worthy of the good things pass? Uh. No. She has plenty more to suffer before she reaches the proper suffering level to get a good things pass.

I think Arya is totally going to die. She'll go partially FM, but still retain her Aryaness. Then things or stuff happens and she ends up dying either because she failed to make a kill, she sacrifices herself for family, something like that. Some tragic, semi-heroic, emotionally poignant death, possibly in Jon or Sansa's arms, but she ends up taking a dirt nap. I mean, where else do you go with a revenge-fueled child assassin if not poignant death? She grows up to be what? A roving assassin? *yawn* Killing her off is more dramatic.

The Jaime and Brienne romance is so anvilly it's a GH-level Stanvil and anything that gets more Brienne on the screen is good with me. Snarky Jaime is pretty fab as well, and that new outfit of his was schmokin' hot. The show is pretty obvious in it's edits and I think even McLaren, who directed Oathkeeper, said in her commentaries that Jaime and Brienne were romantic and I think she said they were in love and didn't know if they were ever going to see each other again. (Riiiiiiight...) Coster-Waldau and Christie have amazing on screen chem and even GRRM noted it in S3, but I'm pretty sure they are directing CW to look as if he's, to quote Audreythe2nd, "he's tearing his own beating heart out and handing it to her on a platter." CW is reportedly totally into his wife, or so blind gossip says about him turning down a casting couch to remain faithful, and GC is dating a fashion designer who looks, but isn't, twice her age. So they aren't a thing. I think Jaime and Brienne are the long term tragic romance but that we will end with at least one "happy" couple. Don't let it be Dany/Jon. Don't let it be Dany/Jon. I'd prefer...almost anything to that. I agree that the casting of Rory really hampers any Sansa/Sandor romance and it's not really been shown on the show. In all of S4, Sansa didn't even think about Sandor, did she? And he was just roading it up with Arya. I wouldn't mind a return of Gendry just briefly to reunite with Arya and I think that's still a possibility. I think they series will end with some level of hope, some positive parts, even though so so so many people are going to die. Next season, I'm speccing that Jorah, Margaery, Theon, Tommen and possibly Cersei die, along with a host of other side characters, but Davos, Jaime, Brienne, and at least two Starks, make it into S7. Before they die too.

Considering Jaime's mooning over an island for no good goddamn reason and Brienne gripping that sword he gave her like a lifeline, it seems that Jaime and Brienne are the long-term romance, at least for the show. And yeah, at least one of them (Jaime) is going to die a big hero's death while the other one (Brienne) soldiers on stoically caring for their love child.