OtterMommy

(Moving a convo to this thread from the spoilers thread....) oint taken. Yes, at the very least it was assault. But, you know, it is just another example of how entertainment writers and producers in general (and, specifically on this show) don't respect "that line." I'm not saying shows need to be squeaky clean, but I do think there should be at least accountability, if not consequences, for such matters. And, at the risk of opening up a whole other can of worms..what would the reaction have been if Nick were the magical one and Adalind was in a romance with, for the sake of example, Renard. Nick transforms himself into Renard to have sex with Adalind...I have a feeling that would have been much more likely to have been recognized as rape, even thought it was the same situation (we'll ignore the pregnancy here for a moment...) I'd like to think it is because the generalized Powers That Be are sensitive to women, but honestly I just think they don't want the backlash. Sadly, the rape of men just isn't taken as seriously. In society, I think there is a general (albeit not universal) move to be more accepting of others and the rights of others. I wish entertainment would pay attention to that.

I think this convo has veered away from spoilers, so I'm taking my reply over to the writing thread.

I don't agree. First off, what Adalind did to Nick fits the dictionary definition of rape: (from websters) unlawful sexual intercourse or any other sexual penetration of the vagina, anus, or mouth of another person, with or without force, by a sex organ, other body part, or foreign object, without the consent of the victim. I said earlier that Nick didn't seem to upset about it--and he didn't, at first. Once, however, he knew that it had been Adalind, it was quite clear that he realized the gravity of what had happened. No, there was no "force" involved, but that isn't necessary for it to be rape. But, as I said, Nick never gave consent to have sex with Adalind. You can't get much clearer than that. We could also go into how Adalind did roofie-like magic on Hank to get him to sleep with her..... Also rape. Of course, by that definition, it could be argued that what Nick did to Adalind was also rape except for the fact that it was not "sexual penetration." There was nothing sexual in what he did when he stuck his tongue in her throat--he did it only so that she would bite him hard enough to draw blood. And, they had been going toe-to-toe in a very physical, very violent fight and Adalind was giving it as good as she was getting it. I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that Adalind may have killed Nick (or Nick may have truly killed Adalind) if the fight had continued. I agree that rape is a very serious thing--which is why I am very disappointed in how this show is handling it. I don't think that those of us who have a problem with this are bandying around "rape" casually. In fact, I think we are doing quite the opposite.

I wanted to go, but I mentioned it to my husband but he was distinctly unenthusiastic about it. Sigh.... In a completely unrelated note, I started watching Quarterline on YouTube to see if Bitsie Tulloch is just having trouble with Juliette or if she is all around a bad actress (the only other thing I've seen her in was The Artist and, let's face it, a mannequin could have played her part). She's pretty good in this, but I get a feeling it is her playing herself....but, I was very pleasantly surprised when Bree Turner showed up in Quarterlife!

I actually don't deny that there is chemistry there. However, I just don't understand why entertainment thinks that rape is a minor crime. Yes, this was a rape of a man, which is rarely seen on TV. And it wasn't violent--in fact, Nick wasn't exactly complaining afterwards. But, Nick never consented to have sex with Adalind and Adalind made sure the sex happened. If you boil it down to that, it was rape. If the writers had found some other way for Adalind to de-Grimm Nick, I would have no problem with them getting together. Yet, the writers chose to go the sensationalistic route without any thought of what they were actually doing and they seem to have blown the whole thing off with no consequences (well, other than Adalind's time-release pregnancy and having to go through a ritual which made Juliette a hexenbiest). No one has ever really held Adalind accountable for what she did.

I thought that as well about her being pregnant and drinking corpse juice. But, hey, she drank wine the entire time she was pregnant the first time....

https://youtu.be/QAN3s1IO7Yk https://youtu.be/El0dnCohjq8 Two new previews for 4.20. Not wild at all about either of these...it looks like Adalind is being sainted by the writers. However, when she "tests" the cure, wouldn't that subdue her biestness? I guess there are 2 ways to look at that. One - she could really value her life over her powers and is willing to give the latter up to protect the former. Then, we're set up for Nick protecting her from here on out and my Friday nights are suddenly free. -Or- Two - Adalind lied about what this potion was supposed to do and, if both Adalind and Juliette drink it, they will somehow be bonded together and form a super villain. This could be really bad or really awesome...and a fabulous way for Adalind to exact revenge (yet again) on Nick...and get her baby back. I think number 2 is by far the better outcome (even if it sets up more baby drama...this time Nick is looking for his son...). And, as I said before, if TPTB try to ship Nick with his rapist, I am outta here....

Promo photos for 4.21 http://www.spoilertv.com/2015/04/grimm-episode-421-headache-promotional.html Apparently Renard was not enough forJuliette. And Trubel....with a machete!

I do agree about expecting these things from her as she is the villain (but a pretty ineffectual one. Her schemes never work and she is always allowing herself to be manipulated by others). As for suffering consequences--you're right...she is miserable. What I meant by suffering the consequences, though, is an external consequence. No one ever, or at least they rarely, hold her accountable for what she has done. Oh, and I wish Nick wouldn't be so quick to believe everything she says. Dude...do you really trust her to save someone she put in a coma and tried to beat up? Remember what happened the last time a hexenbiest offered to help? And, you may want to consider a paternity test....

Yep, add those two to the list. Here's another Adalind thing that popped into my mind. In Iron Hans, she lies to Nick when she tells him that she didn't know that Juliette would turn into a hexenbiest. When she met up with Sean a few episodes earlier and told him that she had a fight with Juliette and that Juliette is now a hexenbiest, she said, "So that means Nick is a Grimm again." She knew what they would have had to do and what the "side effects" would be (which also makes me think that Elizabeth knew as well.)

We talk about how badly written Juliette is--and she is--but Adalind is just as bad, but in another way. So far, she has: Tried to kill a woman who was already knocking on death's door Used "magic" to entrap Hank--leading him to be unable to perform his job oh, and ALMOST DIE because of her Used "magic" to put a woman in a coma purely out of spite for someone else (And we can also talk about how a poor cat had to pay the ultimate price) Used two men in an effort to get pregnant and then sold the baby for her powers Renegged on the contract of the sale of her baby (how has that not come up? I mean, they way she had to sign that contract makes me think it is not your run of the mill legal document) Used "magic" to become someone else (this also involved a bit of breaking and entering) Raped a man Broke into someone's house (again) with the full intention of beating that person to a bloody pulp if she didn't do what Adalind wanted Ended up pregnant from her rape and expects her victim to protect her Wants to exhume a body, which is very illegal if you don't go through the proper channels (and, let's face it, THAT isn't going to happen). Oh, and it is really gross. Plus, we still don't know what she wants to do to the corpse. Yet, how many of these items ever led to actual consequences for Adalind? Really, raping Nick is the only one that had an actual consequence. And, with all that, the writer are now trying to write her as a sympathetic character? I mean, that is the impression I got in the scene in Renard's office. Ugh....this show!

Word. I'm sorry, I'm just not okay with the unfortunately common habit of TV shows to pair rapists up with their victims. I'm also rather disappointed in Grimm that they haven't acknowledged, even "lightly," what Adalind did to Nick.

I know, it makes no sense. But, what in this show makes sense? If we want to dig into this farther, how did she change clothes before she went to see Kenneth? If the scene she had with Renard actually happened (and, who knows, It could have happened, or it could have been one of Renard's hallucinations), then she gave his key back to him. You were not the only person wondering about this It is just one more sign of something that angers me beyond words with shows (movies, books, etc). It's when the writers/creators think that their audience is made up of idiots. Just by the nature of this show, I have to be a bit lenient on this, but this past season, they have really pushed it over the edge for me.

Sigh...I so agree! I'm a book person--I review books and I have a book blog. I spend at least a couple of hours each day reading. I think that was what drew me to this show--it is (was) a very bookish show. They used literary source material and they were ALWAYS GOING BACK TO THE BOOKS! Both Rosalee and Monroe seems to have extensive libraries of their own (Rosalee's at the Spice Shop and Monroe's at their house), but there was something just organic about going to books that were hand written and handed down through the years, even if I cried foul at how pages that were purported to be about 2000 years old were in mint condition. Then, there was the burning. There is NOTHING so counter the sanctity of books as burning them...I find it rather irresponsible of the writers to not take this into consideration. True, the trailer itself wasn't as "useful" as it once was, but it was the heart of the show...and they burned it up.

Sadly, I know the answer to this question. Even sadder is the actual answer. Apparently, when BT first wore that blue coat back in S2, there was apparently a big response from some female fans about where they could get the coat (J. Crew, by the way). Since then, the costume department has brought it out whenever they could. Apparently now, they never have her take it off. It might be the only likable thing about Juliette at this point.

I do think there is a good chance that season 5 will be it. However, NBC doesn't really have anything to back it up so they may be more lenient with their shows. Plus, the outcry on how Grimm is going right now is pretty loud, so it is possible (albeit unlikely) that they get their crap together and get back on track in season 5. We'll just have to see.... I also think there might be chance that it comes out that this baby is not Nicks. Maybe I'm just hoping because, really, that whole plot is a gigantic pile of stinking poo. I don't think Nick and Adalind, or at least Nick, will ever leave Portland, though. TPTB have made it quite clear on several occasions that the show will not be moving.

Okay, with recent developments, how do you think the spoiler that someone (2 people?) will die. Here is how I see the characters' chances: Nick - Nope, they aren't going to kill of their main character. I mean, technically they already did that once so I hope they wouldn't do it again (but then...Adalind's pregnant again....) Juliette - BT has mentioned coming back to Portland in a few months to start work on Season 5, so if she does die she will somehow be resurrected. Sorry folks, Juliette isn't going anywhere. Monroe - I don't think he's going to be in good shape at the finale, but I don't think he'll be dead. Rosalee - Well, I guess she's a possibility, but I just don't see it happening Hank - I still think he's one of the more likely to bite it, simply because he can be removed from the story line pretty easily. Wu - More likely than Nick, Juliette, Monroe, or Rosalee, but unlike Hank, he is actually useful now. He probably knows more about Wesen than Nick does at this point. I mean, Nick would go to the trailer when he needed to find things out. In the early episodes, there were a couple of scenes where Nick was doing some reading just to gather information, but for most of the last 4 years, he only hits the books when he needs a specific bit of information and then leaves. And Hank, well, he just sort of tags along. Wu, however, actually goes there to study and we've already had one incident where Wu could identify a Wesen than Nick had not yet encountered. Renard - It's possible, but I think he'll end up being the serial killer that the last 3 episodes will focus on. I think the bleeding bullet wounds indicate something other than his death. Adalind - As much as I like Claire Coffee, this would be my choice, but I just don't think it is going to happen. Sigh...... Kelly - The most likely in my book. She's the target of the Royals--and by extension, Juliette--and Adalind. I read a speculation that the season will end with Adalind betraying everyone to get Diana, which will lead to Kelly's death. Interesting, especially since the writers are trying so hard to paint Adalind as a damsel in distress. There is also the small matter of Mary Elizabeth Mastontonio, or however you spell, being cast in a pilot for another show. Of course, that show has not yet had a pick up and, even if it did, she could probably still pull off the 2 or so episodes of Grimm each season, but the powers that be like to have their actors available. Trubel - Nope. Not going to happen--it would be pointless to kill her off. Other than being a friend to Nick and being a rather inexperienced Grimm, she isn't really valuable to the antagonists. Bud - Please, please, please NO! I feel I have to beg because, after they torched the trailer, I know that sweet Bud is not safe. I'm hoping the fact that the fans pretty much adore him will keep him safe. Kenneth - I would LOVE that. He's just another pointless and interchangeable Royal, but an especially annoying one. Hmmm, did I miss anyone? I wish we had a poll function here to keep track of people's predictions!

Oh, I think Trubel might have some trouble (hee hee) with it. She was very close to Juliette and, even though she had a hard life and a tough as nails exterior, Trubel was still rather naive and trusting. But yeah...Kelly...she wouldn't bat an eyelash.

Actually, they are hidden somewhere in the Spice Shop. He gave them to Rosalee to protect and she put them--under a floorboard? Something like that... It happened in Season 3. If I remember correctly, she was alone in the Spice Shop when she hid them, so Nick does not know where they are and, unless Rosalee told Juliette at some point (which, even when they were BFF's, there would have been no reason for her to do so), Juliette wouldn't know where they are either. But, it doesn't matter. Everyone seems to have forgotten that the keys even exist....

I kind of hope a Siegeborst comes to town and goes after Juliette. This she'd regret destroying the only Siegeborst gift outside of Romania?

Another thing...there are different ways to not like someone in a show, and some of those ways are actually good things. Examples: Season 1, part of season 2 Adalind - I didn't like her in that I wanted her to be foiled by Nick. I wanted to see her fail, but I got a kick out of her all he same. I wanted to see what she was up to because it actually had to do with the plot lines of the main character. I wanted to see her face off against Nick because I wanted to see her lose to Nick after a good match. Even though I didn't like her, I didn't dread seeing her on the screen. Late Season 3, Season 4 Adalind - I didn't like her because I felt her character was pointless to the rest of the show. She was having her own little drama and it was just tiresome and I began to resent her time on screen because I really felt (and feel) that it takes away from what the show is supposed to be about. Hexen-Juliette - Here we have a badly constructed and badly performed (so far) character. Look back at all the comments. What are people saying? They are saying that she doesn't make sense, they are scratching their heads about her actions, and they are tired of her. She's also creating storylines that people do.not.like. Was anyone here cheering when she set fire to the trailer? No. I'll be honest--I'm not completely ready to write her off. I think if the writers simplify her--make her just plain evil and one-dimensional, she might work in sort of the same way the first Adalind listed here worked (although Claire Coffee always has a bit of humor about her that I don't think BT has). But, I'm not sure the writers will be able to do that. As for the acting, in Adalind's case I blame the writers completely. I think Claire Coffee is a very good actress and deserves better than what she has been given. For Bitsie, I think she might have the ability to be better than she has been in Grimm. I'm actually thinking of checking out some of her other roles to see, but here she just isn't delivering.

I've been her defender in the past as well but, as I said upthread, her scene with Rosalee was absolutely painful to watch--and not because of the writing or the character.. I will give her the benefit of the doubt for a teensy-weensy bit longer and hope that when Juliette drops the angst and is just evil, BT will be able to pull it off. A villain like they are trying to create with Juliette will probably be and needs only to be one-dimensional and 1D evil is really not that hard to pull off. But, as I said, just a teensy-weensy bit longer. Even my patience has its limits. Well, hopefully, Nick and Co can get there in time to salvage something, or else Wu may have to get out his straight jacket for a while. Unfortunately, I see no way the Super Soaker can survive the fire. Sigh..

Yeah...this was one (of many, many, many) steps too far. I can't see Nick ever getting over this one, and I'm sure she'll give him much more to not get over in the next 3 episodes. As for her leaving the show--I've liked Juliette and I like Bitsie Tulloch, but--at this point--I would be more than happy to see her leave. I would be shocked beyond belief, though, if that actually happened. Let's face it, she at DG are a couple, he's the heart of the show, and I saw on IG/Twitter that they got a house in PDX (as opposed from the apartment the show has supplied for them), so they're not going anywhere.

Ugh...this show.... Sick of the Juliette storyline, done with Kenny Boy fed up with Adalind--well, fed up with how she's written (I actually tweeted the writers tonight asking why they are ignoring the fact that Renard could just as easily be the father), and it took me about 1 minute into the show to figure out who the killer was. You know why I still watch this show? Because I have no pride. And, I need me some eye candy. That's it. I have defended Bitsie Tulloch in the past, saying that the faults in her character were due to the writing, not her acting. That may have been the case in the past, but her scene with Rosalee in jail was just painful to watch on her end (Bree carried it off just fine). I don't mean Juliette was hard to watch (she was, but that's not the point), but I had absolutely no clue where BT was coming from in her performance. Just terrible. I was also rather disappointed that this really didn't relate to the source material ("Iron Hans" by the Brothers Grimm) at all. The only thing the original tale and this story had in common is that people go into the woods. Considering that people go into the woods in EVERY SINGLE Grimm tale and, well, every day in Oregon, I'm not sure why they even bothered to try to make a connection at all. I mean, the opening quote wasn't even from Iron Hans. Finally, next week just looks HORRIBLE. Are these people trying to sink their own show? There was one good thing (besides the one line I cited in the best lines thread): that gawdawful dream scene Adalind had of telling Nick he was going to be a father apparently ended up on the cutting room floor.

Not sure if I have it correct, but Renard's line: "Well, while we're digging up your past, we might as well dig up your mother."