ILoveReading

There is no worse culprit of Sam vs Dean than the show itself.

I don't see Sam babysitting Jack. If he does, it won't be passive. It will be proactive and Sam teaching Jack how to be a better person. I really see no other way for the story to go other than Amara 2.0, probably ending with a rehash of Alpha and Omega with Sam talking Jack out of destroying the world.

Sounds like she wasn't thrilled with how her character was treated.

I saw a tweet asking for people to submit questions for spoiler scoop. I was trying to think of Dean focused question to ask and I realized there really isn't one. Just like Dabb talking about the Winchesters (plural) will become generals turned out to be false as it was just one Winchester, Dabb talking about how all the characters are in a predicament is also false. Dean's really the only character who doesn't have a potential story line set up. Sam is facing off with the nephilm and will probably have some connection with him, Mary is trapped in alt world with Lucifer, Cas will have whatever happened to him when he was dead. Dean...he'll be sad over Cas and Mary and probably drink, but other than that.... I got nothing. Just, Dean reduced to wringing his hands over things happening to everyone else.

I guess neglectful is the wrong word because I don't disagree. Dean was in a position that made it impossible for him to succeed. I forget which ep it was, but when Dean told the story of Sam falling off the roof and breaking his arm, it made me shudder because all I could think of was what happened to Dean when Dad came home. Sam got hurt on his watch. Dean should never have been responsible for Sam, but he was. John put that responsibility on Dean's shoulder and held him liable when something happened to Sam. There was no way he could be in two places at once. But according to his ep he needed to be. So, Sully showing up can only make Dean feel like he wasn't enough for Sam. That he was failing to meet Sam's needs. It just feels like this would have been another blow to Dean's self esteem. That was the problem with the episode concept. Dean did the best he could, but for the episode concept to work, the show basically had to say that it wasn't enough. This is precisely why this episode left me feeling bad for Dean.

But if Dean wasn't neglectful and couldn't meet Sam's needs why did he need a Zanna in the first place?

Ironically, this episode had the effect of showing just how figuratively alone Dean was. A big part of why that episode didn't work for me was that it had the opposite effect. It just left me feeling bad for Dean and highlighting how he really had no one looking out for him. Sam had Zanna, at least one teacher, John and Dean. Who did Dean have? I felt it also highlighted just why Dean probably feels like he was never good enough. He had to be there for Sam and John. If he stayed with Sam he would have been letting John down, and if he stays with John he lets Sam down. He needed be able to be in two places at once. No wonder he feels like he failed. Plus, Sully's advice wasn't the best. You don't encourage a 9 year old to run away. Also someone really needed to be the voice of reason in regards to the cage. It wasn't about being courage it was about common sense. Why did no one stop and point out that Lucifer hates humanity so why would he help them defeat Amara? The whole rushing to Lucifer just made Sam look gullible. Given John and Dean's dislike of all things supernatural, if Sam started talking to an imaginary friend, I don't just see Dean or John taking that in stride. Or accepting it as a natural part of childhood since they didn't have natural childhoods. Even if the writers didn't intend to make Dean look neglectful, there was no way to avoid it with the whole concept of the episode.

This is precisely why I see none of the supposed character growth for Dean. I didn't see him do (or not do) anything he hasn't mutliple times since season 1. IMO, its not speaking his mind that Dean needs to learn how to do. He's done that every season. What he needs to learn to do is stand up for himself, especially against his family. He needs to learn to not take things back just because his words might might people uncomfortable. What does it matter if Dean speaks his mind if he never does it when it counts. He could have told Mary he will always be there because she's him mom and left it at that. Or when Sam lied to him about working for the Brits. Dean was clearly uncomfortable and wanted no part of it but the show needs the brothers to "be on the same page." So they just had Dean roll over. A well written show would have allowed Dean voice here. The problems is the brothers were never on the same page over the brits, the writers just refused to allow Dean voice his objection. I felt Jensen did a great job making his displeasure known even if the writers gave him no lines. Same with his confrontation with Mary. Dean talked about how much Sam suffered because of the deal, and how Dean failed Sam. It just shows that Dean still doesn't understand that what he went thought matters too. It's also why I don't see the relationship as equal. It still very clearly revolves around Sam's want and needs. We see that Sam wants to work with the Brits. He didn't give a damn what Dean might want, or how much Mary's lies hurt Dean. " Nope its just, this is what I want and I'll make sure it happens." Then he manipulated Dean to make sure he got what he wanted. I'm not saying that Sam has to clear everything with Dean, but if its an equal relationship he owes it to Dean to be honest with him. "Dean, I'm working for these guys. I think they can make a difference. I hope you'll back me but if not, I get it" or something like that." For me, the relationship can't be equal until Dean sees his wants, needs and past matter just as much as Sam's and the show allows him to verbalize those and not be shamed into taking it back. This season, Dean didn't seem confident, he seemed like he finally broke.

Right, now I would say none of the writers has any clue if Jack is going to be good or bad. I figure its just going to be Amara 2.0 and the writers will label him confused, and lost and he'll be helpful or destructive depending on the needs of the episode or individual writer.

But was it Crowley's spell that closed the rift or was is Jack? I thought that since Jack's impending birth opened it, that his actual birth actually closed it. As for Cas, it was for no other reason than make sure he was in a position for Lucifer to kill him off. He comes through the rift , then "omg, shock value" Lucifer stabs him.

It was Mary fighting with him, that ultimately ended up causing him to be sealed in the rift. Not Crowley. Lucifer walked right after Cas. So it wasn't really effective.

That's what I thought too. In one of Misha's solo panels he also told a story about his daughter asking where babies come from.

They didn't even need to make Dean a full fledged demon. Since his body was dead, they could have added the element that Sam couldn't do the full cure. So, like Crowley, Dean is a half human/half demon hybrid. In Death Takes a Holiday when Sam and Dean were ghosts they had to play by he ghosts rules. Dean having to play buy the rules of a demon, like not being able to cross a Devil's Trap or use salt. Or Dean just completely disappears in the middle of a hunt because he was summoned to a crossroad for a deal. I wish they had made the curse from Regarding Dean last more than one ep. 42 minutes wasn't really enough to do the concept justice. I would have liked to see more of the dark side of the curse. Instead of Sam joining after he sees what a screw up the Brits actually were, tie it to trying to save Dean. He finds a reference in this bunker to a magic spell the brits have. He calls Mick, goes undercover to try and get spell. Mick helps him. Sam joins for real when Dean is cured. I ended up liked Mick and Ketch far more than I thought I would. You could have had a cat and mouse game with Dean and Ketch. After the event of Ladies Drink Free, have Mick turn traitor and he'd feeding Sam and Dean intel and their saving other hunters. Instead Sam and Dean just looked dumb, and amateur that they missed the huge, giant red flags that the Brits were not what they said they were. Agree. Dabb has been around since s4. He should know the characters and the world they live in. Plus, he wrote the finale. He was the one that set up the arcs for this season. He could have easily dispatched Lucifer, or sent him back to the cage in ep 8 and spent the rest of the season developing the British Men of Letters story. But nope, he chose to keep him around. I don't think follow up is Dabb's main priority when there was zero consequences for Dean killing death and none for Cas taking out Billie and the Darkness was back burner ed and only given the absolute bare minimum attention. Dabb wrote the scene of Toni grabbing Sam. Given the set up I thought they were after them because the Brits blamed Sam and Dean for the apocalypse and decided they were more dangerous. But then, nope, they want Sam to work with them. Why kidnap and torture? There was a huge plot hole right from the start, and both those eps were written by Dabb. IMO, the biggest problem aside from laziness, (I would bet money on Jack being lost and confused and not knowing if he's good or bad or both and an imprinting on Sam= Amara 2.0). is the lack of communication. It wouldn't surprise me if we found out the writers don't read each others scripts. I think they meet, come up with a general concept, like the Darkness is released and each writer decided what that means. I still don't really understand what was going on between her and Dean. Even Jensen talked about how as far as episode 18, he was still confused as to how he should be playing it. Carver can't answer whether Amara couldn't or wouldn't take his soul. That was a major moment, but nope it wasn't important enough for the writers to care about. (I'm one that believes Dabb was in charge at this point). Then again this season, Jensen mention he was still off balance as far as ep 22. It shows how little thought went into the arc, other than Mary is struggling. I can see how it worked for Jensen in that moment, but I don't think forgiving Mary even crossed the viewers minds until Jensen mentioned it.

I find this lazy writing. It was especially bad in s11. It felt like every scene after the opening credits was just copy and pasted.

It's almost like she just went for a reassuring pat and he kind of grabbed on like a lifeline.

I loved everything about this scene. It's just as good as the Mary one (if not better). I love how Jody just knows he needs the support. So much is communicated even without a single word. Dean just looks so lost and broken from a distance, and the way the scene is filmed he looks so small. Then when we see a close up of his face there is so many emotions in that expression, anger, hurt, fear, love. I even say hate, in hindsight. He looks like he wants to both hug and kill Mary at the same time. This is why I would love an episode where Dean is cursed and cant' speak because Jensen is so good with the non verbal acting.

I took that more as hurt rather than anger. He was upset that Mary put in the effort to reconnect with strangers but none with her own sons. I'm not denying that there weren't times Dean was angry at Mary. I'm saying I never got the feeling that anger over the deal was the underlying reason. Not even in hindsight. Since Jensen, himself, said that it didn't click for him until he read ep 22, I don't feel it was a motivation Jensen was trying to convey in any of his scenes with Mary.

I believe the storylines for s13 will be Whatever happens to Lucifer and Mary in the alt world. I don't think we'll see much of it because of budget reasons but I do think we might get a lot of tell. Cas will deal with whatever happened to him while dead or he'll be alt world Cas and the boys enemy. I believe Jack will just be an Amara 2.0 story, complete with some kind of connection to Sam. Sam will continue to be the planner, lore expert, weapons expert, killer of monsters, comforter of all the guest stars, and the leader of team free will. Dean will drink, mope about Cas, worry about Mary and resume his role as Donna Reed and fuss over Mary when she gets back.

I agree he was floudering, but it never really came across as needing to forgive. I always interpreted it more as Dean realizing the real Mary wasn't the one of this memories and he was trying to reconcile that. IMO, if it was planned from the start, I would think they needed to show more of Mary reaching out to Dean and him rejecting her. I just didn't see it. It came across as Dean attempting to bridge the gap but Mary rejecting him. She kept both her sons at arms length, not just Dean. The one exception was The Raid, but considering Mary lied and chose them over her sons, I can't say i blame Dean, but even then the Dean rushed to her side and said he couldn't risk losing her, and then apologized for expecting her to make him sandwiches and tuck him in. Considering that ep was written by Berens, if he really did plan it, that would have been the perfect ep to really start laying the ground work, but I just didn't see it. Also, I like reading metas and debates and I didn't see any mention or discussions that what Dean needed was to forgive Mary. Nor did i see any after that The Raid or ep 22 aired. It's like Jensen was the first to figure it out. So, I'm glad it worked for Jensen., and like I said, I could see it being a motivation. But I don't agree that it was planned or even a thought in Berens mind, so it wasn't even a tell. It was nothing more than a happy accident that occurred because Jensen puts far more thought into these things then the writers do.

I find the biggest problem in the writers room is lack of communication. I don't feel like the writers talk to each other. I tend to think they get together every so often and are given a vague outline like Mary's coming back and she has trouble connecting with her grown sons. Then I think each writer is left to interpret that how they want. This is the first season where I felt like I couldn't connect with Dean. Even last season with the whole Amara storyline, Jensen was as confused as I was, but it was okay because I figured Dean was just as confused as I was. I could relate to that. But this season, I was never sure what I was supposed to be seeing from him. With regards to hunting, Mary, Lucifer, Kelly, etc. Valuim Dean has to be the most apt description of how I felt watching him this season. (I don't mean that in Jerk/Bitch, but just more of a description). I'm glad it worked for Jensen, but I don't think it was anything more than a happy accident. Mostly because I didn't get that vibe from Dean. I didn't feel he was keeping her at arms length in the first few episodes. I felt like he was trying to find common ground. Things were awkward, and I understood Mary needing space.. Even afterward Dean tried to establish boundaries for the, Yes, Dean and Mary grew more distant as the season went on, but it came across on screen mostly because she was rejecting him, not because he needed to forgive her. If Berens had planned it, but didn't tell Jensen, then there was no reason to keep it from the other writers so they can be consistent in their approach, and I didn't see that at all. Don't get me wrong, I can easily see it as a motivation but its not one I think the writers were successful in getting across.

No one acknowledged that though. The one time, when Dean should have allowed Dean to stick to his prinicples he rolled over and followed Sam. Then Sam got a big fancy speech about how he was a leader and they should all follow him, while Dean just gazed at him adoringly. Saving Mary, it was all about Sam's pain and how much Sam suffered because of Mary's deal. If it wasn't for Mary, Dean would be dead at Ketch's hand. Guess i don't define that as propping. MMV

I never needed Sam to redeem himself for releasing Lucifer. I needed Sam to acknowledge he treated Dean like crap and chose a demon over him. I never disliked Sam in s4. I didn't like what he was doing, and I was looking forward to the redemption arc. I thought it got off to a great start. With Sam admitting he needed a break and Dean not being willing to just let it go. But something changed after Fallen Idols. Somehow things got twisted that it was Dean who somehow failed Sam, and Dean who needed to learn to trust Sam. IMO, they redeemed Sam for the wrong thing.

I think Amy's story had more holes in it than a screen door. Yes, Amy had a sympathetic reason but that doesn't give her the right to decide someone deserves to die. What about the drunk driver? What if he was drunk because he found out his son had cancer. Did Amy find out their stories? It reminds me of that movie John Q. He finds out his son needs a heart transplant but because his insurance won't cover it so he take a hospital hostage and forces them to put his son the transplant list. He's very sympathetic, and everyone can understand why but... The movie is old but I'll spoiler tag the ending just in case. Yes, she saved Sam's life but Sam doesn't know her. How does he know she's being honest with him right there? He spent a couple hours with her one afternoon, didn't hear from her again for 15 (give or take) and when she first came to his attention, Sam, himself, was planning to kill her. Then he literally found her with blood on her hands and she lays a sob story one him. She tells him that her son was sick and needed fresh brains. How does she know what will help him? It seems to me it's because it happened in the past. If he got sick from dead brains once its stands to reason its going to happen again. So how many bodies are acceptable? What happens if a drug dealer isn't available? How long before she starts justifying a guy smoking weed is acceptable as a bad person? She also tells Sam she had the last job at the morgue for the last 6 years. It's been about 15 years (give or take) since Sam last saw her. How was she feeding herself and her son for the 7 (or so) years when she wasn't working at the morgue. Also at the end of this episode they were going on the run. No job at the morgue anymore. Where is she going to get her brains? Just how high is Amy's body count. I personally believe its a lot more than four. Dean did lie to Sam. Not right, but at least Dean did his own dirty work her instead of asking another hunter to do it. What's forgotten is that Sam did lie to Dean, too. He took off in the middle of the night with nothing but a vague note. This is coming off Sam almost killing himself and Dean because his hallcinations are got the better of him. He's still zoning out and losing touch with reality. Sam disappears in the middle of the night, its only natural to wonder if Sam did that of his own free will. Same with defending Amy. How is Dean supposed to know if Sam was in the right mind when he made that decision. Maybe if Sam has been open, and told Dean what he was up right from the start, Dean might not have been suspicious. If you give people reason to questions your actions, don't be surprised if they do. IMO, Amy and Benny are only comparable on the surface. Because as i mentioned, Sam didn't know Amy at all. He only knew what she told him. With Benny, he and Dean fought side by side. In that situation you come to learn and trust someone to watch your back. Plus, he demonstrated his loyalty by saving Cas. It would have been easy to be a second to late in that situation. If Benny was only using Dean, its in Benny's best interest to get rid of Dean. He could have easily ripped his throat out when they hugged after the resurrection. Plus, we saw that Benny stopped killing before he went to purgatory. When Dean confronted Benny, he took a machete with him, so he never gave Benny a completely free pass.

I thought he was jealous because he believed that Dean was putting Benny in front of him. Dean defended Benny over Sam and Sam didn't like that.

This is why Sam's apology in s11 didn't work. Not only was he guilted into by Lucifer, he said, he'd never forgive himself. But I can't think of a time when he actually felt guilty for not looking. That's the biggest problem with the show and Sam's so-called flaws. I find it tends to put Sam's flaws down to other people's reaction to what Sam is doing rather than the actions themselves. What I mean is during season 4, Sam lied from the minute Dean showed up. He spent the season going behind Dean's back and lying. Dean tried, he even told Sam to keep his secrets, just stop lying. But somehow, none of that was wrong. It was wrong that Dean was angry about it and he had to apologize to Sam and prove he trusted him. Same with S8. It wasn't wrong for Sam not to look, it was wrong for Dean to be hurt by it. After a season of Sam acting like he wished Dean stayed gone, and despite Sam's fancy words about looking after Dean and showing him the light, he did nothing to back up his fancy speech. Dean ended up having to support Sam all through the trial sand then end up promising that Sam will always come first for him, despite that fact it was Sam who has chosen other people over him. Sam follows the Brits, that's not wrong, what was wrong was that he didn't try to lead them. Sam gets the fancy hero speech and now he's suddenly the leader. (I don't believe for one minute that won't carry over to next season. I'm sure Sam will singlehandedly organize all the American Hunters while Dean stands around silent.