ILoveReading

https://vimeo.com/219926275 New Shaving People Punting things video. Not sure if it means anything with regards to s13 but putting it here just in case.

In one of Jensen's meet and greets (I think it was Asylum) he confirmed that it was Ajax he was offered the role of. It was a done deal if the scheduling could have been worked out. It's too bad it couldn't because I liked the character and I think Jensen would be a fantastic bad guy. I have my fingers crossed (odd are slim to none, I know) that maybe SPN will be done or in shorter seasons for Guardians of The Galaxy 3. Jensen would be perfect to play Adam. As for Fifty Shades of Grey, IIRC, Jensen said the producer of the movie actually drove to his house to talk to him. So glad that didn't work out, because that is one role I'd have no interest in watching him in.

I think this never more evident then during After School Special. Brock played all the lines sraight up, and I think we were seeing what Dean would have been without Jensen. I can see Dean as a cocky teenager, but I just don't see him bragging about not sticking around and calling the teacher sweetheart. I especially cringed at that I'm a hero line. This is what he talked about, how the most important thing is to find what isn't written on the page. I thought his performance in s9 was brilliant because of it. I don't think the storyline was supposed to focus as much on Dean's decision as it did. This is so true. This is also why I love to listen to Jensen talk about Dean and how he approaches everything. If/When Supernatural ends, its why, as much fun as it would be to see Jensen in a Marvel movie I wish he'd find another good tv program, because of his ability to build and character and add layers. Dean feels so real at times. I saw the start of it with Alec from Dark Angel and he's perfected it with Dean WInchester. I'd love to see what he could do if the had the writing to back up his talent. I really liked the scene with Demon Dean and Sam in the care when Sam tells Dean that he let Cole live and Dean tells him, only because it was more humiliating to let Cole live with this failure. He was so cold and cruel in that scene.

Yes. This reminds me of that scene at the end of Adventures in Babysitting, when Dean was trying to practice Frank's advice about pretending to smile. Not once did those smiles reach his eyes. Never has a "smile" managed to break my heart so much. I've never seen another actor with that level of ability to "turn his eyes off."

I would like to see John come back. Jensen talked about it at a con, how he'd like to see Dean get the chance to confront his father. I think a confrontation between the two could work depending on how it was written and the above would be a good bridge, because i can see John and Dean having an argument. Dean wouldn't fall into line anymore, and I can see John making some off hand remark about how Dean followed orders better when he was a kid and an argument escalating from there. I think Dean still has a lot of pent up anger and resentment in him. He's never really had a chance to deal with it. Because there is usually something else going on, he just buries it. I think we've seen this anger come out at different times. He's has let a lot of it go, but not all of it.

By my personal defintion of "centric" the first half of Baby was more centered on Sam. The 2nd was more centered on Dean. For me, the difference between American Nightmare and Baby is that Sam was an important part of the Baby episode, whereas I don't feel like Dean played any part on American Nightmare. But we can agree to disagree and I'm going to bow out of this conversation.

I think you're missing my point. I'm not actually saying he should be removed from the ep, when I say he can be. I'm talking about the characters impact on the outcome of the episode, as it stands. It's not the same things as 'begging for him to be removed.' If I hated Dean, I wouldn't care how he was used in an episode. So I strongly disagree. I don't hate Dean. For me, its Quality over Quantity. I'd take 5 minutes of Dean in an episode where he had something important to do, rather than 42 minutes of him standing around doing nothing. As for ITB, there were plenty of complaints when that news broke.

If I recall, the episode after was Into The Mystic. Sam played a big part in that ep, so reworking it wouldn't be easy it would be a major rewrite, whereas removing Dean from Devil in The Details, wouldn't require much effort. It felt like Dabb wrote the episode then went' 'oops. I forgot Jensen has to be in this ep." The whole point of DiTD was written around Sam's confrontation with Lucifer. No episode last season, other than the back half of Baby was written around Dean. He was there, but he wasn't the central figure of the episode. I don't count Alpha and Omega since we know that it went through extensive rewrites, with input from J2M2.

Baby- was pretty equal. The first half of the episode was about Sam and his visions. Dean didn't even interact with Matt Cohen. Plush- I found that far more Sam centric, as he seemed to have the majority of the interaction with Donna. The Devil in The Details- This was far more Sam centric because it was all about his confrontation with Lucifer. Dean was barely in this episode and felt shoe-horned in. He carried a box for Crowley and asked Billy to open the door to hell. Plus, the never seen before or again smiting sickness that took Dean out of his own storyline. Dean didn't save Sam, Cas did. You could easily take Dean out of this episode. Don't You forget About Me- Don't remember a lot about it, but didn't Claire save the day? Love Hurts- that horrible conversation at the end where Dean gets to talk about how weak he is and isn't strong enough to take out Amara? (Just ignore that fact that he bested her twice already) Safe House- Dean ends up possessed and Sam has to save him. Chitters- I really cant remember anything other than I liked Ceaser better than Jesse. Other than Baby, Dean really didn't have a stand out Monster of the Week ep.

We'll have to agree to disagree since the speech was all about Sam. Maybe I'll change my mind when I see how Mary treats Dean next season.

Dean forgave Mary, because he's Dean. Mary really did nothing to earn it.

At the start of the season, Mary wondered how she was going to face Sam,, and in the end her concern was still on Sam. That's why the speech didn't work for me. Despite Dean begging Mary to see him, she still doesn't.

With the position of Arrow's arm it almost looks like she's taking the picture. They are so cute.

I would never argue that Dean tends to put Sam first and in the early seasons I could have accepted that explanation as enough. For instance, Dean's confrontation with his demon self in s3. During that confrontation, Dean mostly focused on John not protecting family, letting mom die, Dean always being there for Sam, not John. HIs words didn't focus on him, however the pay off was Dean realizing that John wronged him. "I didn't deserve what he put on me and I don't deserve to go to hell." That scene felt cathartic. This scene had the opposite effect. It's just Dean putting himself last again. Dean blaming himself for failing. That line was so unecessary. The whole scene just felt like the show once again needing to remind the audience just how hard Sam had it, and then showing it alongside Sam leading all the hunters on the raid, just felt like the writers wanting to point out Sam's character growth rather than Dean's. At 12 seasons in, the explanation of "its just Dean." no longer works. It's not character growth, its just the status quo. In that situation there would be nothing wrong with Dean being about Dean. Dean realizing that, would have been a really big moment for the character. At some point that writers need to stop using that as a fall back, especially in a situation that really should be all about Dean. They didn't even have to go with the hell stuff, they could have had Dean say something like when he lost Mary, he didn't just lose a mom, he lost a dad. That he became a solider in John's revenge quest, and Dad stopped seeing him as a son. That would have fit much better with him begging Mary to see him. Sam suffered because I failed him, so mom see me. Those two things don't really fit together. That scene only became memorable because of Jensen's delivery. IMO, its also not just limited to that scene. That scene was just another example of ignoring Dean's past, and not mentioning his traumas. Ep 12. We have multiple references to Michael, yet nothing regarding Dean and the Michael Lance going to Sam. They could have used any other arch angel weapon, but using having Sam use Michael's weapon felt like a deliberate snub. The show never only brings up Dean's hell experience if they can use to label him as weak, or devalue it. Like Dean saying 6 weeks in isolation was worse than what he experienced. The episode with the hell hounds, Dean's experience with them was the the only thing left out of the previouslies and it was completely ignored. Sometimes, I feel like the show itself doesn't' see Dean. He just becomes an extension of Sam. Never was that stronger than the half of this season.

I think a spin off will be Wayward Daughters.

Brought over from the spoiler thread, but no spoilers. Character growth doesn't explain why Dean suddenly can't hold a weapon or show up for fight. It doesn't explain why he seemed to disinterested in hunts. It doesn't explain why he's not researching or attempting to comfort people in peril. Dean's a weapons expect,, and gadget builder and supposedly and expert at lore, but he suddenly doesn't want to tinker with the colt and try to fix it? It might be more unpopular opinion, but I saw no character growth in Dean this season. Everything he did this season, I've seen him do multiple times. I feel like there is difference between holding a grudge and standing up for yourself. Every member of Dean's inner circle lied and betrayed him, and he just let it go like a water off a ducks back. He looked like a pushover. IMO, Dean can speak up for himself. He has in the past. What he needs to do is stop taking it back because his words might make people uncomfortable. He needs to risk being able to push them away and realize they'll be the ones to come after him this time. It's not that Dean needs to learn to voice his opinion its that others need to learn to listen to what he's saying. I'm not saying others have to blindly follow Dean (and no one really does), but they're often so quick to dimiss what he has to say or its just disregarded until things go sideways and then Dean gets his share of blame. If Dean had character growth and self esteem he'd be able to speak up for himself when it counts, but the two times he should have done that this season, it was right back to peacekeeper/I don't matter Dean. If Dean can't see that his past matters just as much as Sam's exactly what growth have we seen. He still thinks he doesn't matter when he comes to Sam. That's just same old same old. Sadly, as much as I dislike thinking of Dean this way, last season he looked like a doormat.

I think a large problem with the whole organizing other hunters plot would end up with the same thing that plagued souless Sam. Inconsistency. No writer was on the same page about what it meant to be souless. They don't work together and I feel like 'organizing' would turn out far more like 'making a bigger mess' because each writer would put their own spin on what exactly "organizing mean. Will respond in Bitch/Jerk because I know my answer will go there.

Season 1-11 Dean wouldn't, but s12 Dean just does what he's told. (Unless someone found and threw away his valium.)

I thought to help pass the time until the new season, I thought we could do an episode by number discussion. This is not really a ranking, or top 10 lists (although feel free to if you want), just more of a general discussion of Dean in the premier eps. So out of episode 1 Pilot In My Time of Dying The Magnificent Seven Lazarus Rising Sympathy for the Devil Exile on Main Street Meet the New Boss We Need to Talk about Kevin I Think I'm going to Like it Here Black Out of the Darkness, Into the Fire Keep Calm and Carry On Favorite ep- Lazarus Rising. It was such a great introduction to Dean's post hell story. It introduced Cas, and Ive loved watching Dean's relationship with him grow. I liked the introduction of the angels. Jensen's acting was stellar. Least favorite- Magnificent Seven- Just a major let down to what should have been the start of a demon war. I think the scope was too big for the budget and it showed. Although, I was intrigued that even Dean seemed to be the only one not really effected by the sin who came after him. Top Dean moments Pilot - It was a small moment, but i liked Dean's admission to that he doesn't want to do it alone when Sam tells him he can. I also loved "Whoa, easy here Tiger." Because it was our introduction to Dean. Lazarus Rising- Dean's first meeting with Cas. We need to Talk About Kevin- Purgatory. I have a lot of issues with how the storyline was handled over all but, I really liked Carver's approach that it was something Dean almost embraced. I loved that it opened with the monsters on the run from Dean. Plus, the introduction of Benny. Black- Jensen was fantastic as Demon Dean. I think I'm going to Like it here- Jensen was just stellar this whole season. Dean's desperation and grief were so palpable. Plus, I got a laugh out of the scene between Dean and the grief Councillor when it was told from Her POV. Least favorite moment The Magnificent Seven- What's in the Box line. I cringed, and not even Jensen could save that line. It just seemed so out of place. Curious as to everyone else's thoughts on Dean in the premier eps.

He's apparently unfollowed Jensen, Rob and Richard. Ive yet to see come across anyone who has an issue with Rob, so I don't think it means anything other than Mark seems to be distancing himself publicly from the show.

Mark said the writers were lazy and gave an example. When I said I agreed with Mark, I meant the general principal of lazy writing, more than the specific example. I personally was applying that to Dabb.

I was referring to Mark's comment that the writers are lazy. That and lack of communication seem to be two of the biggest problems.

Agree. Mark pointed out several of the issues I had with the writing this season. There were several characters this season I felt like Dabb had no idea what to do with or wasn't really interested in, but that's probably more on topic in the writers thread.

I felt s7 was kind of a cop-out mostly because they took it away but then gave it back. They burned Bobby's house down but, nope all those books Sam managed to digitize and scan. Then they killed Bobby but, nope, he's still there solving things for them in ghost form. I don't want Alt!Cas. His friendship with Dean is one of my favorite things about the show. I've watched it grow. I'd rather see Cas stay dead, then bring back a another version who doesn't like Dean, or worse, have Dean not recognize its not real Cas because the writers want to go with a "gotcha" moment. I don't want to watch Sam and Dean build a new support system. Mostly because I like the one they have, and because the writers aren't strong enough at developing characters or presenting things organically, ex- Sam's decision to join the BMoLs after they royally screw up, or other hunter blindly following Sam when he has a history of poor decision making. Unless, Dean is equally invovled in being a general in the hunting community, I'd rather the show not go there, but I'm probably getting a little to close to bitch/jerk so I'll leave it at that.

The problem is that they attempted this in s7 and that is generally considered one of the weaker seasons overall. Then Jared and Jensen were still working full time. With, them only working part time hours, how do they fill the void. The writers seem to struggle to fill 42 minutes as it is. Regarding Dean had to have the montage added because it ended up a minute too short. Unless they're willing to seperate the brothers more on hunts there is going to be a lot more monologing monsters as nothing more than filler and time wasters. I agree with this. One of my biggest problems with the Carver years is that it felt way to claustrophobic with basically the only focus on Sam and Dean trying to save one another.