shron17

I guess I'd rather see any writer write what feels true to them and to their characters and to their story and not even think about cliches. And I think Amy tries to do that despite all of the criticisms viewers have. Good thing she doesn't read anything written about her shows online. I got much more out of Luke's "No one will ever be more here for you than I am. I will never leave, I will never think about leaving, I will do whatever it takes to fix what's wrong." I'd take that over all the I love you's in the world. Also, Lorelai's I love you during the ultimatum sounded to me much more like a demand than an expression of love. I'd have much rather seen her show her love for Luke in that scene by being honest with him about what was upsetting her and being open to working with him to find a way to move forward that worked for both of them.

This is from an interview ASP did during season 5 or 6:

Also, I thought it horrible that Lorelai apparently hadn't actually seen Emily for 4 months since the funeral but assumed she was still angry because she hadn't returned her calls or emails. Most people would want to make sure their parent was doing okay after the loss of their spouse however bad their relationship was.

I always thought season 6 was written to show that Luke was really just trying handle the April stuff in the best way he could, and was not pushing Lorelai away. He made a lot of mistakes which partially accounted for Lorelai feeling as though she was being pushed away, and definitely had problems with low self esteem. But Lorelai also contributed by: 1) expecting Luke's life to continue to revolve around her and Rory; and 2) misinterpreting Luke's intentions when his behavior didn't meet her expectations. This also ties into Luke saying Lorelai "set up their lives" in AYITL Summer. That line could be explaining the problems between them in season 6 were at least partially due to Lorelai setting up their lives in a way that didn't work for Luke at that point in time.

Luke was the only one she proposed to though. Lorelai always let men pursue her rather than the other way around. And really, she just told Max she missed him but had no idea how to fix things--that part had to come from him.

I don't suffer from serious depression, but find it's impossible to continue feeling sad, angry, upset or depressed while watching GG.

I found the flashback where Kate decided not to sing in the talent show very telling. Rebecca gave Kate the dress and then told her she was the best singer in the house, which gave Kate back her confidence. But then she overheard her mom singing the same song in the shower so much better and came to the conclusion that her mom lied to make her feel better, Not really Rebecca's fault (though I tend to think telling a child they're the best prettiest, smartest, etc. is always a bad idea), but definitely bad timing. It's too bad Kate didn't go ahead and sing in the talent show since positive feedback from outside the family would have done her a world of good. Mixed in with her other issues around her mom and her tendency to compare herself to Rebecca, Kate was now inclined to discount every compliment Rebecca gave her and magnify every criticism. Parents do need to be mindful of how they praise their children, especially those with low self-esteem.

Rory made her feelings about what Logan did quite clear when he found her after the wedding. But Logan never asked Rory how she felt about him presently and chose instead to use his charm and logic to convince her that he didn't cheat and that she should just forget about it. So he won and she went home with him, but Logan ignored the probability that she still had strong feelings of anger and betrayal and it backfired. Sure, Rory should have handled it differently and not kept assuring Logan they were okay, but he doesn't seem able to give her a safe space to talk about her feelings without needing to defend herself. I don't understand why the fact that Rory needs time to think and process to know her feelings means she's wrong and Logan's right since he knows his own mind. In many relationships one person is more assertive and one more passive but that doesn't mean the more assertive person can just steamroll right over the other person's feelings without consequence. This dynamic of their relationship played out again when Logan accepted the job in San Francisco, proposed and offered Rory a new life without bothering to discuss it with her. When she balked at his plan, and explained why she'd come to that decision, Logan walked away saying it was all or nothing. Well that's one possible perception, but I agree with what Rory said in Bridesmaids "To break up, you have to tell the other person." Yes, Rory refused to leave with Logan after the fight but neither said it's over. And Rory didn't call after but neither did Logan; yet he was the one who started sleeping with others. Their "relationship silence" in Diorama is completely irrelevant since they were not in a relationship at that point. I don't agree that Rory knows Logan didn't cheat on her, but think she didn't think he was capable of/willing to see her point of view and gave up. In fact, I think it's possible that Rory's passiveness with Logan stems from fear that he'll end the relationship if she disagrees with him. These are just my opinions, and I understand that others see it differently. Since you quoted my post I replied but I'm not really interested in debating Logan and Rory.

We're actually saying the same thing but with different interpretations. I didn't mean Logan made up facts but that he forced his perceptions of the facts on Rory. You say Logan knows his positions (his opinions, his own mind) and that Rory doesn't. We saw Logan do this several times to Rory but the one that bothers me most is after the bridesmaid incident. Rory was upset and confused and understandably wasn't sure what to think until Logan stepped in with his questions and guided Rory to forgiveness and going home with him. Logan never bothers to find out how Rory feels about something or lets her figure things out for herself. But then she treats Logan badly because she hasn't worked through her feelings, and Logan blames her for not forgiving him even though he pushed her into it until it's wiped away when Logan has his accident.

Interesting insight. I've tried to figure out when Rory's interest started and could only conclude it was around the time she was trying to get invited to the party and stemmed from his family's power and prestige. The idea that Logan's disinterest caused Rory's interest makes a bit more sense to me. I've also read a theory that Rory came to depend on Logan to validate her as a person and a journalist, which would explain why she let him talk her out their breakups and why she was seeing him in the revival. This makes a lot of sense too. Rory probably couldn't help but wonder what her life would have been like with the privileges her parents were brought up with and Logan was her connection to that life. Well, I think Logan only said that once, and he always guided their decision making talks and came up with the pros and cons. In fact, it seems to me he learned quickly to use Rory's method of logical decision-making in his favor by feeding her the "facts" as he saw them.

Yes, Logan did support Rory in his own way, it's just that his way meant he always kept the upper hand. Possibly a personality trait he picked up from Mitchum, which is fine for those who want that kind of relationship. It just never seemed right for Rory. E.g. he didn't even tell her he had an offer out in SF until after he accepted it, picked out a ring for Rory and found a house he could tempt her with. After saying in Hay Bale Maze that he would factor her into his career decisions. The fact that she didn't have a job or a place to go didn't mean she wanted those decisions made for her without any input. Everyone expected Rory "to do great things." Didn't Paris even say that? Such a lot of pressure to put on someone. For the grandparents, their disappointment in Lorelai magnified it even more. Maybe for Lorelai too--sometimes it seemed as though Rory was meant to make up for her failings. Although Lorelai was nearly always supportive of Rory, even in the revival.

I agree with this so much. It always felt to me like Logan was trying to manipulate/control Rory by keeping her off balance. The only time I liked Rory with Logan was when she went to him with her "I'm a girlfriend" speech. But Rory stuck to that for all of 2 minutes before she let Logan convince her she was saying that so he would agree to give up his other girls. I always thought she should have taken quite a bit longer to be convinced that this guy who never had exclusive relationships was all of a sudden willing to go there with her.

I guess it depends on your definition of monsters. It seems to me Emily and Richard were never going to be happy with Lorelai unless she wanted the same things they wanted for her. Maybe I'm just lucky I was raised by parents who, though not perfect by any means, never told their kids who they should be. And sure, the things they wanted for her were not so terrible and she could have gone along with them long enough to still get where she wanted to be, and if it weren't for Rory she probably would have. But I still think one that's one of the worst things you can do to your kid, especially once they reach the age Lorelai was when she left. Imagine trying to raise a child in such a toxic environment that requires fighting constantly just to be who you are? Parenting is demanding and hard enough without all that drama, and I think Rory's childhood would have been much less happy. I always thought Lorelai left so she could be the kind of parent to Rory that she wanted to be, and I respect that choice. I think we can tell quite a bit about their relationship by the way that Richard and Emily reacted when Lorelai left. First off, Lorelai was months away from being free and clear of her parents, if she wanted. Many parents would have taken that as a wake up call--if their almost adult daughter left, should they maybe make changes in the way they habitually treat her? But they still blamed everything on Lorelai, even when they were back in touch. They could have visited regularly to check on her and Rory, made sure they had everything they needed and gone about trying to rebuild their fractured relationship. They were the parents, the adults with more maturity and could have learned from what happened instead of repeating the same mistakes over and over. Instead, Emily wished Mia had sent Lorelai home like an errant child and more or less continued to treat her like she was a child throughout the series.

Yes, they did great in physical support. But emotional support is also very important to children. I understand Lorelai had a very independent, stubborn personality that was difficult for her parents to deal with, but if a parent doesn't make any effort to support their child emotionally they're going to create a very unhappy person. Also, we saw Lorelai apologize to Rory several times for her mistakes, but I don't remember seeing Emily admit to any mistake let alone apologize. It seems to me throughout the show and probably before, both Emily and Richard had very little concern for Lorelai's feelings, happiness and general well being.

I agree somewhat. But Emily was so negative towards Lorelai--we see that over and over in the show. The negativity was already there before she ran off with Rory, that just made it worse. In the scene where Emily finds the note she's complaining about the stroller . Lorelai was very young and trying to do something very difficult by raising Rory on her own, and I completely understand why she didn't want to be around people who were always telling her she was wrong. We don't know how much money Lorelai had saved before she left or if she had a plan for finding a job. We don't know if the Independence Inn was the first place she went or the hundredth. We do know Rory was well taken care of and didn't want for much as she grew up in Stars Hollow, and that Lorelai got her GED, advanced in her job and completed a degree in business. That's good enough for me.

Exactly. If Emily had been a source of comfort Lorelai would have wanted her there.

Actually, my unpopular opinion on this subject is that Emily was mad about not being included, not scared for Lorelai. Lorelai got herself to the hospital and was being cared for by staff there; she wasn't alone. It was her choice to go alone and I really don't think Lorelai's choice to take a cab to the hospital when she went into labor put her or Rory in any danger. If my daughter went into labor and chose to not include me, I would respect that, in the same way I respected her wish to not have me present for medical examinations once she reached a certain age. I would try my best to be supportive and to make sure she had good medical care but understand that it is her choice who to have in the delivery room. Also, I don't see how yelling at your daughter as she's in pain with labor and being wheeled into the delivery room to have her first baby is in any way comparable to yelling at your daughter when she comes home after staying out all night.

Exactly. When a parent has that dynamic with their kid, who do you think perpetuated it in the first place? And who should take responsibility for ending it? Of course Lorelai didn't always treat her parents kindly or fairly. When you have a teenager that often comes with the territory.

Okay. But still not seeing how this justifies screaming at your 16-year-old daughter who is about to give birth. I mean, come on. Lorelai and Emily's whole relationship consists of you did this to me so I'll do that to you. This is not a dynamic any adult should continue with a 16-year-old.

To me, yelling at your 16-year-old daughter as she's being wheeled into te delivery room makes you a bit of a monster. Not that I don't empathasize with Emily and Richard also, at times. I think that's a big part of what makes Lorelai's story feel true to life--no one is all right or all wrong no matter how much they imagine they are and no matter that they refuse to see their part in it. The idea that Lorelai would run away from her parents seems perfectly believable to me given the situation, her personalty, and their relationship.

By necessity casting choices also have to made based on actor availability/willingness to commit to a certain number of episodes. In fact I remember Amy saying how much they loved working with Wayne Wilcox but as he lived in NY and was often on Broadway he wasn't always available to do the show.

W?

I like that idea, but don't have a problem accepting that Lane and Zach stayed where they were because it was a good school district, Mrs. Kim was nearby to help with the kids, and they were comfortable financially living mainly off of Zach's salary. By working for her mom Lane had a lot of flexibility and could easily be there for her kids when needed. I think it's nice when women have the freedom to make a career choice that's best for their family and not necessarily just for them. I also would have enjoyed some introspection from Lane but understand they had limited time and needed to concentrate more on Rory.

Someone told me once the only two things you can't undo in your life are having a baby and dying. Lane and Zach's kids existed and Amy couldn't just pretend they didn't, and she tried to stay true to their character and make them the way she saw them as parents. In my opinion, she didn't undo any story lines from season 7 or anyone's character growth; she just used the years in between to have them in a different place. People change. I agree that in some cases it would have been nice to have more explanation but for me it worked just fine as it was. I thought the scenes Rory and Lane had together in the revival were really nice, especially where Rory was venting about Lorelai's reaction to her book idea and kept accidentally calling Logan. And I loved seeing Lane's kids, especially when they tried on Rory's clothes.

It sounded like Amy wanted a better revival story for Lane that she wasn't able to write for her because she couldn't make Lane and Zach bad parents.