shron17

And it's expensive to slowly rot your insides, isn't it? My unpopular opinion is that I don't really care about the money inconsistencies, or the time warp, or all the things someone else would have done better. I just enjoy the characters, the dialog and the show as a whole complete with all of its faults.

As far as I know the network asked that Rory lose her virginity and Luke and Lorelai get together before the end of season 4. Of course, no one knew how many more seasons the show would go but Amy did have to change what she was planning for their relationship. But they didn't "force" the pairing as it was well telegraphed. Yes, things were left very vague and I've always been confused about what was supposed to be happening between them in season 3, although there are a few clues. Fans were very tired of waiting but they all didn't all lose interest. Watching something week to week is a very different experience than watching on Netflix. I didn't start watching until syndicated reruns started and didn't catch up to new episodes until mid season 5, so it didn't seem as long.

Because Luke was focused on trying to help Jess and Lorelai was focused on trying to keep her daughter away from guys like Jess. Outside of any romantic attraction, Lorelai depended on Luke to play his role as a kind of co-parent to Rory. Their fight just brought it all to a head: Yes, since about episode 6 when they saw the chemistry that was the plan for Luke to be endgame at the end of the series. I think Lorelai would have had a more serious relationship with Christopher at an earlier point but David Suttcliff had other things going on and wasn't willing to commit to the time they needed until season 7. His contract was for 14-16 episodes and he was never intended to end up with Lorelai, which was obvious from the way the got back together.

Not to defend Rory, or even imply she's not as bad as y'all are saying, but we saw her get two jobs after that. The one at the DAR with Emily and the one at the Stanford Gazette that she begged for after she moved out of the Gilmore house. Just because we didn't see working all the time doesn't necessarily mean she wasn't bringing in some money, probably enough to pay for at least some of her expenses.

Do you really think if Luke had been telling Lorelai all that for 10 years she would have dared to ask where the money for Germany was coming from? Luke told her April was going to Germany in the summer, and she already knew April had a partial scholarship and Luke paid for the rest and that April was going to grad school. Would she have questioned him about where was the money coming from, was Luke sure he could swing it (several times), why couldn’t April get a job, etc. if Luke continually told her to back off because April was his? I’m pretty sure she wouldn’t. And it was only after Lorelai's nosy questions that Luke said “I’ve got it, April is mine.” We certainly never saw Luke even attempt to participate in any financial or otherwise big decision in Rory's life. I don’t think the party proves the potential of April and Lorelai’s relationship. Yes, Lorelai is a great party giver, and yes, they had positive interactions during it. Neither do the few moments we saw of April/Lorelai in the revival prove they now have the worst relationship. Lorelai was in entertainment mode during dinner which tends to cause awkwardness. April didn’t get her movie/cultural references, not surprising since they grew up in different generations. April was in the time of life where she’s still figuring things out but feels the need to hide that from the adults in her life, and confided in Rory because she was closer in age and because Rory’s living in her old room which looked like a time capsule. Did you catch the part where when April said she doesn’t smoke marijuana and the gesture Lorelai made to Rory at the table to indicate she thinks April does? I’m sure that would have endeared her to both April and Luke had they seen it. Luke was grumpy at dinner, but I think that had more to do with finding out from Emily that she ended the counseling sessions and then Lorelai lying right to his face when he asked how they were going. Luke visited with April for the first time the day before she visited the diner when Lorelai found out. And Luke called Lorelai that morning asking if she had time to stop by because there was something he needed to discuss with her in person. When she said she wouldn't be able to, yes, he took the easy way and waited. Luke filled in for Anna on the field trip because she had to cancel at the last minute, and he suggested giving the party because Anna couldn’t afford it. And yes, I agree, that when April stayed with Luke and saw him daily (vs. 4-5 months of visits after the birthday party) when Anna had to go take care of her mother it really helped them bond.

I don’t think it had a detrimental effect, just that it didn’t help build their relationship. For example, in season 7 when April and Luke run into Rory and Lorelai at the mall and April tells them “my dad has always been a good gift giver.” Luke and Rory then reminisce about the bad gifts he’d gotten for her. If Luke had given April the toiletry kit, she might smile and think “yep, that’s my dad.” Instead, what she knew of her dad didn’t quite match up. Not a huge deal really, except that they had 12 years of those kinds of moments to make up for. I’m already in agreement that Luke should have told Lorelai sooner about April and that they should have met sooner. But I think Lorelai is being kind of ridiculous when she tells Luke that of course April will like him because he’s her dad. All 12-year-olds aren’t automatically going to like someone just because he’s their dad. Lorelai has a really big personality and tends to outshine Luke’s quieter one. I've heard people similar to Lorelai described as being someone who takes up a lot of space. I just think Luke deserves to have all the time and space he needs to get to know April himself before including Lorelai regularly, and I think that’s all he wanted. Also, I disagree that Lorelai was pushed out of his life and forbidden from meeting April. I didn’t see that on the show as written. I know, and I mean that Luke and Lorelai's partnership did not extend to April at that time. April needed to become a part of Luke's life first before becoming a part of Lorelai's.

You misunderstand what I'm trying to say. Luke is trying to build a relationship with his daughter, not just for him but for her too. Relationships are made up of lots of little moments where you can see clearly who the other person is. Sure, letting Lorelai pick out the gift would have pleased April more in the short-term but would have done nothing to help build that relationship. April is certainly going to appreciate in time that Luke made the effort to be as personally involved in her life as possible. And it seems clear to me that Luke really wanted to choose April's gift, not that he thought it had to be perfect. He even said he would get her a backup gift if this one wasn't right. It kind of sounds like you're saying Luke should have not done the things he needed to do to build a close relationship with April so that Lorelai could have had one. That's just sad. This is where the difference of opinion lies. As far as April goes, Luke and Lorelai are not a partnership, at least not yet. And again, it's up to Luke when to start including her in their relationship, not Lorelai. Yes, Luke has made mistakes and handled some of it very badly but that doesn't automatically mean Lorelai gets to call all of the shots in his life. You know, we heard Sookie ask Lorelai how Luke was doing, and we heard Jess ask Luke. Never once did Lorelai ask him how he was doing, was there anything she could do to help, what did he need. Instead she decided what he needed and then got hurt when he didn't accept her offer. She couldn't even be bothered to be honest when he asked if she was okay. I think that's the kind of support he could have used. That certainly would have made it clear she was angry. How about if she just said, "Yeah, that's nice. But there's a store a few blocks down where I've seen some great stuff. Do you want to check it out before you decide? We could always come back." And if Luke said no, he's sure he wants this, then drop it.

No, it's not about April getting what she wants for her birthday. It's about Luke and April forming a relationship, going from being two people who know very little about each other to learning to feel like father and daughter. It's a process of both them getting to know the other that can only be helped by being authentic, even when they make mistakes.

I don't think it should take magic to realize when your partner finds out they have a 12-year-old child it means a huge change for them and that they will need time to adjust. Everybody is different and should be allowed to do what they need to do in a situation like this. Luke wasn't trying to cut out Lorelai or to be a jerk, he was just handling things the best he could. If he didn't care how it affected Lorelai he wouldn't have asked if she would be okay with postponing the wedding, with him going on April's field trip, etc. etc. Since he did ask it makes sense that if she had let him know how she was really feeling, he would have figured out how to adjust what he was doing so that she would feel better. In AVV when Luke realized she was upset about his complaining mood he stopped and became much more pleasant the rest of their trip. It would have done them both a world of good to just be honest and talk about how this was affecting their relationship, what they might do to make it work better, and talk about the timeline. Look how much better they both felt after they talked in AVV, even though they didn't go deep enough. The thing that has always bothered me most was that Lorelai said now or never instead of we need to talk.

I think Lorelai is the kind of person who tends to make a lot of things about her and her feelings, especially in situations where she has a strong emotional response. She does it in all of her relationships throughout the series, probably somewhat less with Rory. The first example of this that popped into my head was the Thanksgiving dinner when Rory admitted she applied to Yale, but there are many others. Sure, Luke made mistakes in not telling her about April at first, and he does tend to be a little closed off and could have tried to be more open about why he was going about it the way it was. But if Lorelai had at any time been able to step back and try to see the situation through his eyes instead hers, and actually asked him how he felt and listened, I think there could have been a much better outcome.

Lorelai got a sad, negative look on her face when April was mentioned months before that conversation. The first time I remember noticing it was in AVV when Luke brought April's bicycle and asked if he could leave it in the garage. Then again after they got home in the diner when Cesar said that she called. I always wondered if Luke stopped mentioning April as much when he was with Lorelai because of that. And if Lorelai had actually listened the first 4 times Luke said he had it, and backed off then, there would have been no reason for Luke to say "April is mine."

I think Luke wouldn't have been so short with Lorelai if she hadn't already so thoroughly irritated him in the part of the conversation you left out e.g. see below. He's just trying to pick out a gift for his daughter. He knows he's not good at it but he wants it to come from him, and not be something he needs help with. Also, Luke doesn't have to ask Lorelai if it's okay if he takes the time he needs to get to know his daughter. And if Lorelai bothered to give Luke's situation a few minutes thought she would already know getting to know April is difficult for him. If not, she could have bothered to ask and actually listen when he described how he's feeling without making Luke having a daughter all about her feelings, and not at all about Luke. Sorry, I must have missed that post. But there's really no comparison between the two situations. Rory lived with Lorelai and her father didn't have much a presence in her life. April lives with her mother and didn't need a mother figure. I don't know why Lorelai doesn't have a bigger presence in April's life in the revival; maybe it's because she moved to New Mexico. But I do understand why in season 6 Luke felt he needed to focus on learning to be a parent to a 12-year-old daughter and a co-parent with Anna, and wasn't able to encourage Lorelai to co-parent with him as well. Also, even though Luke was a little bit of a father figure to Rory, Lorelai is always firmly in charge of any decisions concerning Rory, and we've never seen Luke try to interfere.

Yes, it seemed very odd that Anna was never mentioned once in that exchange. Even though I don't think it was Lorelai's place to weigh in at all concerning April's finances.

When Lorelai asked to be involved with the birthday gift in season 6 Luke said "it's too soon." Which means not now. Also, the rest of that conversation about the cartoon character, as poorly worded as it was, clearly showed Luke was just concerned about forming his own bond with April before including Lorelai. Lorelai did have a strong negative reaction whenever April's name was brought up in season 6, but was it because she feared Luke would never involve her, because she wasn't involved in the way and when she would have liked, or because there was someone else now he needed to focus on besides her and Rory? Well, April wasn't Lorelai's daughter, so I'm not sure why that's a problem. April was invited to their house and spent time with all of them; the fact that Lorelai and April didn't seem that close were probably personality/generational differences. And Lorelai did offer money to help April, she just did it in a very nosy, obnoxious way and it was clear Luke was annoyed from the point Lorelai mentioned money, but she kept going. If she was really concerned and wanted to make sure Luke knew she was willing help financially if needed, she could have just said that without asking questions that really weren't any of her business.

Again, I don't understand. It is a contradiction to say it's most important to let Luke find his own way with his daughter but that he's wrong to tell Lorelai it's too soon when she asks to be included. Luke just told Jess in Philly that he likes April but he thinks she just tolerates him. Also, asking to be included with April is not the same as telling him how bad you're feeling about not being included. Exactly! And she did the same thing when she offered to help with the birthday party. There's a world of difference between being supportive and being obnoxious.

I think they had one of those relationships where they were both a little off-center but it mainly worked. April coming along threw them off but that's not likely to happen twice, or even once really. Some of what was hurting Lorelai about the situation wasn't Luke's fault. She was used to having all of his attention and time, and being so extroverted made it hurtful not to be at the center of Luke's relationships. Since he doesn't mind stepping back he didn't really understand how that felt to her. I think Luke would be fine with grown up relationships as long as he didn't have a new half-grown daughter and fiance to worry about at the same time. That situation isn't really comparable to other stressful adult situations, like a couple having a new baby together.

Well, those are two huge things to handle at once, in my opinion. Especially for Luke who I think has always been socially awkward. He's a 40-something-year-old man who's mainly lived alone, often like a hermit, without many relatives or close friends. He was raised by his dad and his most important relationship was on-again off-again which meant he never really had to learn to be committed or compromise. He had one disastrous marriage to a woman he enjoyed dating but who was not a good partner for him (Luke moving to Litchfield? It was never going to work.). His diner takes up a lot of his time and he has a habit of not letting people fully into his life to avoid pain. Luke isn't without virtue either--he's a decent businessman and works hard at not letting the people in his life down. Which is also why finding out about April was such a challenge; he wasn't going to be able to figure it out and play it ear as he went along. He had to give it his all. April could be the only child he ever has and will only be a minor for six-ish more years. Luke would never forgive himself if he didn't do everything he could to be a good dad to her and form a strong bond. He would also be using his dad as his parenting role model who probably always put his kids first and more or less lived for them. Also, he finally has the relationship he's hoped for with Lorelai. As always, he tries hard to do all of the right things even though he often feels unsure of what the right thing is. Luke's very aware of how quickly he could mess up the relationship--you can see this clearly in early season 6. He doesn't really have long-term relationship experience nor any role model to use, and Lorelai with her baggage isn't the easiest person to be with. When he can focus all of his free time and attention on her it goes well. But yeah, I can understand why the wheels come off when April comes along, and I find season 6 Luke is mostly in character . So here is my take on this in a nutshell: 1) Luke didn't tell Lorelai it was her fault Anna was mad; in fact if you're referring to the Chinese food scene he specifically told her it wasn't her fault. 2) IMO Lorelai was super pushy about both the birthday party and the birthday gift. Luke is an independent guy who wanted to do it on his own. Sure, it was probably a bad idea and didn't really work out, but I don't think he should have to repeat and repeat again that he has it under control. 3) The cartoon character comment just came out wrong due to above-mentioned social awkwardness and also irritation that Lorelai poked fun at his gift. She could have been a lot more tactful. Luke is already sensitive to the fact that he's a bad gift-buyer. And I know my own daughter at that age would have preferred a gift her dad picked out for her (yes, even a stupid one) than one picked by someone else. 4) I think Luke was right to still have almost all of his time with April be just the two of them. Although I do think there should have already been an introduction between Lorelai and April and Anna. 5) Lorelai never should have gone to see Anna by herself even though she was trying to help. It both made her looked unsupported by Luke to Anna and could have easily compromised his relationships with April and Anna. At the very least, she should have told him immediately what had been said. It also ended up hurting her relationship with Luke Sorry for all the details! That is all.

I get that too. I just don't think someone should be expected to deal with integrating an unknown 12-year-old child into their life while at the same time figuring out how to get their partner to be honest about their feelings. Luke had enough on his plate. And I always thought that's why he separated the relationships, because he wasn't at all confident that he could handle both becoming a father and being a newly married person all at the same time. Maybe it's because the show is arguably about Lorelai, but there is much more concern about Luke understanding Lorelai's feelings than vice versa. And he's one dealing with a huge life change. Shouldn't relationships go both ways?

Trust me. I've been with someone who wasn't honest about their feelings and it is not pleasant when you find out you can't trust anything they said the whole time you were together. Asking questions like that opens the door to communicating about how you really feel; putting a happy face on and saying you're fine closes that door. And what exactly is the alternative? Should he have refused to accept her answers? Gone ahead with the wedding even though it felt too soon? Not gone on April's field trip when she invited him? Not done things the way he felt was right for him just because Lorelai seemed unhappy? Maybe at almost 40 it's time for Lorelai to grow up and learn to communicate with her partner, learn real empathy for the other person and figure out how to work as a team so both people get most of ,what they need. There is a lot of work that goes into a relationship, and part of it is figuring out what the other person needs. But it's at least as important to know your own feelings and what you need and be able to communicate that to the other person. Why would anyone marry someone they can't tell when things in the relationship continually cause them pain? Why would anyone want to marry someone who continually says they're fine when they aren't?

Luke admitted he used April to push Lorelai away in season 7, which wasn't written by the same people. I'm not saying it shouldn't be counted as canon, just that I've never been convinced that David Rosenthal who was season 7's showrunner had the same take on Luke and his actions in season 6 as the Palladinos. Same thing with Lorelai's speech about the car and not being invited in. Personally, I think she was in the car all along and was sad because she was no longer driving the car (relationship/Luke's life). But that might just be me. But, it does make sense what you say about Lorelai needing not to be rejected, and the issues not being solved with a ring on her finger. It doesn't really explain why she refused any discussion with Luke about it, or why she spent several days hiding from him when they could have been trying to talk things out. I'm not saying for sure they could have worked it out, but I think Luke deserved honesty from Lorelai and a heartfelt discussion about how they might make it better. When one person is continually lying to the other (yes, it's okay to postpone the wedding; yes, I'm fine with cancelling everything alone; yes, stay here and I'll just walk home; yes, you should go on April's field trip; no, it doesn't bother me that Anna sent over a bag, etc.) there's no way the relationship isn't going downhill fast. In fact, it seems to me it was more like Lorelai who checked out of the relationship. Luke was trying to ask the right questions but wasn't getting honest answers.

So, does this mean her ultimatum wasn't really an ultimatum, that if Luke did agree to elope Lorelai wouldn't have wanted to? I'm confused about why a person who is done with a relationship would give an ultimatum. It seems to me more like she was giving him one last chance to give her exactly what she thought she needed. And that she wasn't open to discussing it with him because she wasn't willing to compromise in any way.

Since Luke saw Jess infrequently it seems very reasonable that he would want to see him when he was nearby and take April. Why wouldn't he? They were there about half an hour and Jess and April likely wouldn't have any reason to interact again for quite some time. And I thought Luke acted very awkward when he introduced Rory to April, and clearly only did it because he had no other choice. Even though I think Lorelai and April should have at least been introduced by then, there's really no comparing a brief introduction to a relative Luke sees infrequently to an introduction to someone he sees daily. Despite the sad ending, I've watched season 6 in its entirety more than once and have noticed that despite it's flaws, it is carefully written to simultaneously show Lorelai feeling more and more isolated from Luke and show Luke simply doing what he feels he needs to do to get acquainted with his daughter. If you look more carefully at Luke's words and actions it becomes obvious that completely cutting Lorelai out of his life was never his intention. I already know most people disagree with me, and I'm fine with everyone having their own opinions. I guess I'd really just like to be able to state my opinion and explain why I feel that way without having others make assumptions about what I am saying (e.g. that it's okay for Luke to put Lorelai aside). I'm not going to go into any more of the same details because it's really boring to keep saying the same things over and over. I would just say, try watching some of these episodes from Luke's point of view and try to keep in mind who he really is. It's especially interesting when you consider Luke's role model in his formative years was a father raising two children all on his own. I hadn't watched this scene for a while so I watched again to see how accurate my memory is. It turns out not very. Lorelai looked sad and dropped her head as soon as April's name was mentioned, and Luke was clearly aware of that and looked guilty. He didn't meet her eyes when he said "I guess her mother will pick her up around seven, so..." and readily agreed to what she said about popping up after 7. I still think he was trying to gauge how much April had to do with Lorelai being upset, and would have listened to any suggestions or objections. I also don't think it's fair to expect Luke to force the issue when he keeps asking Lorelai is she okay, he doesn't have to go on the trip if they have plans, does she want him to send the bag back etc. and every single time she tells him she's fine. At this point Lorelai looks sad every time Luke mentions April, but it's not at all clear whether it's Luke's behavior or just the fact that April exists. And I don't think it's terrible to be upset that your fiance has a daughter, but it's also not fair to expect Luke to change his behavior towards his daughter because Lorelai is sad. Lorelai also seemed checked out of the relationship more than once, including the night discussed above when she insisted on leaving the diner to go home alone, and those days right before the ultimatum when she was actively hiding from Luke. But those who think her ultimatum was justified never address that. At the very least, I think Lorelai should have told gone to Luke and told him that she went to see Anna and what they said since it could potentially directly affect Luke's relationship with his daughter.

Don't people sometimes date someone to figure out if you would want to marry them? Or, sometimes date but not want to get married at all? But Lorelai already knows Christopher, so I see what you're getting at. A lot of people probably wouldn't date an ex that they already know they wouldn't marry. I think Lorelai isn't always very clear about her feelings though, and could see her feeling attracted to Chris when he talks about how she's the one for him, and not realizing until the subject of marriage comes up that she could never trust him enough to marry him.

It's about trust. When you marry someone you're in a sense trusting them with your future. I can see her dating him since that attraction was there, but can't see her ever trusting him enough to marry him.

I think so too. Instead of going to Anna on her own, I always wished Lorelai had used the birthday party as a reason to go to Luke and ask him to take her to meet Anna. He involved her in his relationship with April and now they needed to figure out how to begin to include her in those relationships. Going to see Anna together would have shown her they were a team and made it harder for her to try to limit Lorelai's relationship with April. Also, I think at that point Luke could have really used Lorelai's single mom perspective to help him deal with Anna. I like your idea of asking April how she felt. Luke was always considerate about not wanting to upturn the life April already had with Anna just because he was there now. No, I don't think that. And I don't think he did put Lorelai aside. He went on April's field trip only after making sure they didn't have plans. He very willingly went shopping with Lorelai when he got back. He called her at the inn to see if she was coming by the diner and she lied and said she had a staff meeting. When he didn't see her the next day he went to her house (while she hid in the kitchen and had Patty lie to him) and the inn looking for her and left several messages. He couldn't find her until she showed up at the diner late and insisted he elope to Maryland with her immediately. The only thing I am blaming Lorelai for is saying now or never to Luke instead of being willing to have an actual discussion about their relationship. Luke was willing to have that discussion twice during Lorelai's ultimatum, and again the next morning. ------ We all know their conversation ended with Luke saying "I can't just jump like this" and Lorelai walking away. Luke wanted to talk again the next morning but Lorelai told him it was too late, and had of course already moved on by sleeping with Christopher. And that seems like a reasonable and adult way to end a relationship with someone you love deeply? I don't get that at all. I think it's possible Luke wanted to discuss how to start including Lorelai in his relationship with April and how it would work after they got married. It would make sense to have the discussion first instead of eloping and expecting it to work out when they got back. Luke introduced April to Jess because they were in Philadelphia and attended the open house. He only introduced her to Rory because she was there. That's not the same thing as having a relationship with a future stepmother who would be a regular part of April's life.