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shron17

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Everything posted by shron17

  1. I agree, and this is the main reason I had so much trouble with Lorelai marrying Christopher. Would she date him? Sure. I just can't see her marrying the man who treated Rory so badly in the past. And another nitpick from French Twist, said by the girl who was raised by Emily and Richard Gilmore--
  2. Well, I guess we're going to disagree then. It seems to me when you propose to a guy you've known a long time you would be willing to consider his needs when he experiences a huge life change six months before the wedding date. Unless, I guess, getting married is your primary concern. Then again, Lorelai couldn't be happy with Christopher either, who was more than willing for her to parent Gigi to her heart's content. I just think if Lorelai had been more in touch with her feelings, been honest with Luke instead of expecting him to read her mind and offered him real support instead of trying to force him to fill her needs, it would have saved all three of them a lot of pain and sorrow. Luke was seeing April regularly for less than 6 months when Lorelai gave him the ultimatum. It was still a few weeks away from June 3, their original wedding date. I'm confused about why you say letting Luke find his way with his daughter is most important, but then say Lorelai had waited long enough. Obviously for Luke it wasn't enough time. Or, is it that you think Lorelai's feelings are more important than Luke getting to know his daughter in his own time? Like I said, this is the only comparison I'm making, and am not bringing Chris or Anna into it at all. Why would I? Luke and Lorelai are the two people in this relationship, not Chris or Anna. Not necessarily. April already has a mother. Do you really think if Chris married when Rory was that age and decided to see her more that Lorelai would have welcomed that kind of involvement from her stepmother? Those are things that could come up in the future but the extent of Lorelai's involvement would be up to Anna and Luke and to some degree April. Also, the fact that Luke has already missed out on so much of April's parenting make it especially important for both he and April to experience as many of those moments as possible together now.
  3. I do agree that Luke was at least 50%, probably closer to 75%, responsible for the decaying of their relationship. I agree that he didn't handle letting Lorelai know that he had a daughter, and letting Anna and April know that he was engaged, well at all. But Lorelai was solely responsible for the death of their relationship with her ultimatum, and then going to Christopher, when it quite possibly could have been saved. And I think she owed Luke a chance to see if they could still fix things instead of deciding for him that they couldn't because he refused to elope when she decided they should. The only comparison I'm making between Rory and April is that Rory is Lorelai's daughter but not Luke's, and that April is Luke's daughter but not Lorelai's. That is absolutely true. I think if Luke had told Lorelai she had to start speaking to Rory if she still wanted to be engaged, or if he'd gone to Christopher directly about Rory without going through Lorelai, he would have been just as wrong as Lorelai was when she did comparable things. I think only the parent has the right to make decisions about their child and their relationship and the other parent. It was absolutely Luke's right to decide how much time he and April needed to get to know each other alone before including Lorelai in their relationship. Lorelai could certainly tell Luke how she felt, and even expect him to take her feelings into consideration after an open and honest discussion. But she chose not to.
  4. I remember hearing in season 6 or 7 that Chris had moved to somewhere just outside Hartford. Which would make sense, since he would be closer to his mom to help with Gigi. I don't think it was mentioned on the show though, maybe in an article? Towards the end of season 6 when Emily and Richard kept talking about him, had lunch with him and invited him to dinner it seemed like he must have been fairly close to Hartford.
  5. I think he did know. He just didn't know how to bring it up and what to say to make things better. I think he just thought if he kept going along and doing his best to make everyone happy it would all work out. Every time she did say something, he was responsive. Except about April's gift, which she handled by making fun of him and being bossy instead of just offering her support. I agree 100%. It's too bad Lorelai didn't learn anything from him about how to act when your significant other has a kid. And it doesn't matter that Luke didn't know about her until after he was with Lorelai. April was still his daughter and he had a right and an obligation to figure out how to be her dad on his own terms.
  6. My point is that if Lorelai hadn't given the idiotic ultimatum there never would have been a break up at all. She let Luke think she was okay with postponing and okay with him focusing on April right up until she said now or never and expected him to jump in the car with her. Sure, she mentioned it in at Martha's Vineyard and again when they went shopping, but they never actually had a conversation about how they both felt about the situation. Luke had every right to get to know his own daughter in a way that worked best for him, and Lorelai didn't give him a reason to think she was unhappy to the point of leaving until that night. I don't think there's any reason why they couldn't have worked things out if she had only approached him in a reasonable way, and also realized it was most important for Luke to incorporate April into his life in a way that was comfortable for April (and unfortunately, by extension, Anna) and for him. Luke had always taken a back seat to how Lorelai wanted to handle things with Rory and he deserved the same consideration around his relationship with his daughter. After Lorelai showed Luke how little their relationship, and his well being, meant to her by giving him an ultimatum and then going straight to Chris, I don't think Luke owed her anything at all.
  7. Which is Lorelai's whole problem. She always based her actions on how she "thought" her men felt about her, not how she felt about them. If she had been honest with herself about how she felt about Luke she wouldn't have become desperate enough to say now or never before she even gave him a chance, because she would have known she wanted to be with him even if it meant waiting a little while longer. And she never would have gone straight to Christopher, let alone started a relationship with him.
  8. Yes, I agree that for 2 people who loved each other and wanted to get married 24 hours earlier, there should have been a conversation. But it should have happened before one party gave an ultimatum and then slept with her ex, not after. It's a bit of a stretch to blame Luke for their breakup because of his behavior afterwards, in my opinion.
  9. Of course they don't have to be mutual, but if your intent is to sleep with other people I think you should make sure the other person knows you're broken up. It was cowardly of Logan. It's not like Rory was refusing his calls, just neither of them called the other after their fight. Rory probably should have called him but she's not the one that moved on.
  10. I still blame Logan, as he's the one who slept with others. He should have called and made sure they were broken up before he started acting like they were. Rory didn't sleep with anyone else.
  11. They didn't. They had a fight at the restaurant after the lunch with Jess. Logan wanted to leave, said it was too much drama for him, and Rory wanted to stay so he left her cab money. Nothing was said about breaking up, and neither contacted the other after. Rory didn't know Logan thought they broke up until Honor called her at Thanksgiving. Sure, it was vague, but Logan should have checked with Rory before he went off and slept with a bunch of other girls.
  12. I love moments like this, where they don't interfere in each others' business but make it clear that they will be there, if needed.
  13. One of my favorites has always been in Nag Hammadi at the firelight festival before Luke gives Lorelai the earrings Liz made. Luke had a rough couple of days dealing with Liz and Jess and was reminded of how Lorelai is always there for him, even when he pushes others away and feels like he's messed up all of his relationships. His expression/tone when he says "no one comes to mind" always sounds to me like a perfect expression of how much he cares for her. Then, after they're dating, this is one of my favorite moments, where they both let down their guard just a little to show how important the other person is to them:
  14. The girls were careless in their remarks and drunk but they weren't intentionally being mean. They didn't know much beyond the fact that Rory was currently Logan's girlfriend. I mean, I guess either Logan or his sister could have done more to make sure Rory didn't end up in that conversation, but I think it was more that Rory and Logan came from very different backgrounds. Then again, this is really why I could never get on board with Rory and Logan. He was very good at convincing Rory he had done nothing wrong. Even though I think actually being in a relationship with Rory was such a change for him that he really didn't fully understand what he was doing wrong. Logan never gave Rory the space she needed to think through how she felt about their relationship and whether she wanted to continue it, even in the revival. Wasn't showing up with the life or death gang just one more grand gesture to keep her in his life, to convince her that she needed his family's name and power?
  15. Let alone Odette, who he is engaged to. That was just weird. And Rory was an idiot for going along with it, even if they lived in different countries. Okay, so this is more of an in-character nitpick. In Christopher Returns he comes down after his shower complaining and says he's going to fix the shower. How would Christopher know how to fix the shower? He seems more like the type to call someone to fix things rather than doing it himself.
  16. I don't really think he was, though. Yes, he was preoccupied, and he kept them separate, and he wasn't around quite as much. But they still spent time together, Luke still did things at the inn for her, he went on the trip to Martha's Vineyard, he went to dinner at her parents. He asked her if she needed help cancelling things for the wedding and checked with before he told April he could chaperone her trip. Those last 2 episodes he was disappointed to not see her when she told him about the staff meeting she made up and looked all over for her and left messages the next morning. I've seen people say Luke didn't move with Lorelai because of April, but in one episode she told Rory she hadn't let him move in yet.
  17. Not really, since all relationships don't include proposals. If someone proposes it generally means the relationship is a bit more serious and probably discussion is needed before deciding whether to break up or carry on, so it can be determined if both people want the same thing. Luke did communicate, beginning with the exchange you copied above when he told her it all felt like too much. I also remember him asking her more than once if she was okay, and listening for her answer, and each time she assured him she was. Somehow I doubt that was all because she was trying not to hurt him. When they were at Martha's Vineyard and Lorelai told him to stop complaining, Luke turned on a dime and became much more pleasant to be around. Yet it's practically impossible to know a partner who doesn't communicate and/or who tells you it's okay when it isn't. Case in point from above: Giving an ultimatum is not asking to elope! Let me count the topics. Whether Lorelai really wanted to get married without even Rory there. Whether Luke would like April to be at his wedding. Why Lorelai went to talk to Anna without letting Luke know and what was said, because this will directly affect Luke and his relationship with his daughter. How Luke can include Lorelai a little more in his time with April. When Luke should move into Lorelai's house. Whether Luke told Anna and April they were engaged. How were things with Luke and Anna since her freakout over the birthday party and what might Luke do to make the situation better. Whether it would be better to wait just a little longer before getting married, and when and where. Etc. etc.
  18. I guess it really depends on what both of the parties involved want, and whether they feel their needs and wants are more important than the other person's. If someone just wants to get married, sure, give an ultimatum to whoever and make it happen. But if a person really thinks they can't go one more day without getting married they might be better off staying single. Because it is a power play, and a really uncaring thing to do to someone you care about.
  19. Luke was still very focused on April and building a relationship with her. Maybe he wanted to wait until he was able to focus more on Lorelai and creating a good life with her? Maybe he wanted to wait until he was in a little better state of mind about his life in general before beginning this new stage? Lorelai was the one who offered to postpone, saying she didn't want him "to go into this all jumbled up." If it was so important to her to just be married as soon as possible no matter how Luke felt she shouldn't have offered. Luke said yes to Lorelai's proposal. He agreed to wait to plan the wedding until things were alright with Rory, even though no one knew how long that might take. As soon as Rory was back Luke experienced a big change in his life. Then one night, even before the date the original wedding was planned, his fiancé shows up saying now or never and expects him to leave with her immediately to elope in Maryland. I don't blame Luke one bit for wanting to have a discussion first and then refusing to jump when she insisted. I know most don't agree with me, and I promise I'll shut up now.
  20. I did, because I think that if you care about someone enough to want to marry them then you care enough to include them in the decision-making. Rory didn't say she never wanted to marry Logan--she suggested continuing their relationship long distance for a while. I'm sure in some cases when someone refuses a proposal, it does mean the end of the relationship. But both parties should make that decision, not just the one who wants to get married immediately. Likewise, Luke didn't refuse to marry Lorelai outright--he accepted her offer to postpone the wedding, and then refused her demand to elope that night. I think calling that "continuously refusing to marry her" is a stretch. Lorelai felt stuck in the relationship because she didn't share her feelings with Luke, not because they had discussed it and he refused to see her point of view. Again, that's on her for letting her feelings build up to the point where her behavior was irrational, not on him for not seeing how it was affecting her. Luke was preoccupied with April and not focused on Lorelai and her feelings, but that's going to be true of married people sometimes as well. I think what Lorelai did was worse than Logan's proposal because she was demanding immediate action. I used to think this too until an acquaintance told me she regretted giving an ultimatum because her husband of 5 years was in counseling still trying to resolve his feelings about marriage. It's a very personal, individual thing but it's also an opportunity to show respect and caring for your partner and give them the time and space to make a decision that's right for them. I mean, everyone ultimately wants a partner who's happy with themselves and their life, right? Luke was in the middle of handling what felt like a huge life crisis to him and he probably needed longer than 6 months to find his way to feeling somewhat normal. Even though Lorelai was in a completely different place, I think she could have done much more to try to understand what he was going through instead of making demands.
  21. It's not the not telling him I see as a betrayal, it's the ultimatum. There are lots of other ways Lorelai could have and should have handled it. Even outright breaking off the relationship without giving Luke a chance to fix things would have least been honest about what she was doing without deflecting the blame to him for not jumping when she said jump.
  22. Sure. And I don't think Luke cared that much about the actual wedding. And Luke definitely made mistakes in the way he handled the situation with April, although I still think it was his right to decide when he was ready to start including Lorelai. Luke thought they were still engaged, he was still calling her, and looking for her, and trying to see her. Even if Lorelai was very forgiving and patient with him for 6 months, even if she thought their relationship was already over, that doesn't justify saying now or never and refusing any further discussion. I do understand that Lorelai let herself get to the point where she was so upset that's all she could do, but that's on her for not telling Luke much sooner. To me, that's a bigger betrayal than anything Luke did.
  23. My point is that Luke had the right to make decisions about April and how his life is going to change himself. We all know Luke needs time to process things and finding out you have a child is a huge change, especially for someone like Luke who's mostly lived alone and only has a few family members. Lorelai planned the wedding all in one day and chose the date, and she was also the one who offered to postpone. Even then, June 3rd was weeks away when she insisted they had to elope that night. But why give Luke any say at all about the wedding, right? I really think Lorelai called all of the shots from the beginning. She proposed, planned the whole wedding, offered to postpone, hid from him for several days and then refused to discuss it and said now or never. If that isn't controlling the relationship, I don't know what is.
  24. Well, in my opinion, regarding Luke and Lorelai's relationship Lorelai has always been in the driver's seat. This was mentioned in Summer in the revival when Luke said she set up their lives. Lorelai was surprised to hear that but didn't deny it either. When you say now or never you are taking control of that relationship. Sure, if she had asked if they could elope soon and then been willing to have the conversation that Luke wanted to have about it. But telling someone now or never isn't asking.
  25. Not really--that was after the ultimatum and after Lorelai slept with Christopher. I'm talking about the ultimatum itself. I don't see why it matters what we think about it, or what Lorelai thinks about it. It only matters how Luke sees it and how he feels about it and about him taking the actions that feel right for him. I agree he didn't handle it well, but it still wasn't up to Lorelai to dictate how he should handle it. To me, her ultimatum was an attempt to take back control of their relationship. Even when told him she loved him. I know most don't agree, and that's fine. I just don't think being engaged/married to someone means that they get to control the decisions that you make about your own life.
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