cardigirl

About the question of whether or not Helen has a right to make the demand that Alison not be around her kids: While I totally understand why she would say that, and want that, I would hope that once the pain of her situation is less intense, she would see that making it difficult for Noah to see the kids by making that demand will eventually harm her own relationship with the kids. Noah's relationship with his children is HIS to own. Let him figure out if he made a bad decision with his kids by bringing Alison into their world a little too soon or not. Helen, eventually, will have to only worry about her own relationship to her children. It's a very hard thing for a left-behind spouse to do, accept the situation and move forward making the best family they can with their children. Many times, the anger at being left, and seeing the ex with a "replacement" spouse, building a family where the one change is your place next to your ex, creates huge amounts of envy and jealousy. That's why custody battles are so awful. Some people are jealous that their kids get to keep their relationship with the ex, while they do not. So it becomes a way to hurt each other, not realizing that they are only hurting themselves more. AND, if Noah is really the DB many of us seem to think he is, the kids will figure that out soon enough. The missed birthdays, the missed school events, or never taking their calls because he is busy, all of that will inform the kids about their relationship with their father. Helen won't have to say anything. And, in fact, she would be better off not denigrating him in front of the kids. Because that is a way of involving herself in his relationship with the children. The best divorces (and there can be such a thing) happen when people decide to put the anger away and do what's best for their kids. It takes awhile to get there, but it can be done. Noah lying about his situation is not helping anyone get to that place. Helen's mom's anger at Noah isn't helping anyone get to that place. Helen hasn't been shown being vindictive about Noah in front of the kids, she's trying to keep them in their comfort zone. While I think she's still holding on to some hope that Noah will come back (it's hard to drop the love quickly when you weren't planning to leave) so she's keeping things status quo at home for now, eventually (one hopes) she will try to build a new life of her own. What I've seen from Helen is the desire to hold the family together. I haven't seen as much of that from Noah, until an emergency pressed him to take care of them. He can claim that Helen is keeping him from the family (she may very well be complicating things) but until they show Noah actively missing his kids, I don't know that he is. And Alison, I think she was more than a little puzzled to find out that Noah hadn't told anyone he was with her. Lack of truthfulness from him would be a concern of mine if I were her.

He did?

I am really enjoying this discussion about the show and the characters. I think it speaks to how well done the writing and the acting have been. The show is opening up a dialogue about what relationships are and how can we navigate them. I doubt that the show will offer any real answers, but to provoke so many different points of view and varied responses to the themes and characters is a sign of excellence, in my opinion. Thanks to everyone for jumping in. I may agree or disagree with you based on my life's experiences, but you all have given me lots of food for thought.

Well, Helen's point of view didn't shy away from her looking extremely foolish, or her scattered thinking. In Noah's POV, everyone else is being mean to him, even though he is being heroic.

My point would be, how long does Noah get to "sort out his life" at this point. IF, and I think this is a BIG IF, he wants to be as full-time a father as possible, he would have tried to sort that out before Helen's meltdown. The timeline confuses me. I need to go back and view season 1, but when Noah was writing his novel after being on probation from his teaching position, where was he living then? And the montage of women we saw him with during his initial separation from Helen, where was he living then? And how involved was he with the children then? He has had time to figure this out, if it is a priority with him. And the sister and father being harsh with him is from his own recollection. He knows that they don't like what he did, but rather than explain his point of view, he runs and takes the kids and goes to a motel. The one credit I am willing to give him is that whenever the kids said "mom is in jail," he kept trying to correct them and not make it seem as big a problem. He kept telling them that she would be home tomorrow.

I love the acting in this series. Tonight was great, poor Helen. It's my understanding that people going through divorces are super stressed (of course) and therefore much more likely to be involved in auto accidents, so her spiraling out of control seemed about right to me. Add that to the fact (according to her recollection) that Noah was going come after the rest of her life (i.e. the house, the money) and that her high-priced lawyer was acting idiotic in court, and that she couldn't depend on Mom and Dad anymore, and that she had realized that moving on with Max was not going make it all better, she was self-medicating to try to cope. Making the really poor decision to pick the kids up herself was hard to watch, and the younger son seemed like such a jerk (but again this is her recollecton) that I was all like, yeah, give Noah full custody for a year. Would serve him and Alison right. My mom always said that if my dad ever left her, he was going to have to take all 5 kids with him. Joking, but she had a point. Why does the mom end up being the one who has to remain stable? Helen is just now realizing that Noah leaving is not a momentary blip in her life, but will require a complete makeover. In the end she may end up in a better place than she thought her marriage was, but for now, she just can't see it. She is in so much pain, fighting through her grief. As for fighting about whether or not Noah should be allowed to live with Alison, well, I get why Helen wants this. She is still trying to control things and feels this gives her a measure of control. Rightly or wrongly, she is still trying to protect her family from the interloper (as she views Allison). These tactics usually don't work, and cause lots of harm to the children and hopefully Helen will see this soon enough. I loved that Noah's own sister was trying to point out to him that fighting Helen for full custody of the kids as an FU to Helen was not being a good dad and was not going to earn him any brownie points. Not because she liked Helen particularly, but because she knew her brother having full custody would not be the best thing for those kids. Noah has not been putting the kids first for awhile now (that we've been shown). Loved Noah's father and older son showing what they thought of Noah's actions. They have every right to express those feelings. And this is from Noah's recollection, so perhaps he is remembering them as being more harsh with him than they were. When he first showed up at the accident and the kids were all "Yay, Daddy" he was portraying himself as the rescuer from their mother. He knew what was best for them, etc. But then, he got to the house and saw that maybe Helen was involved with someone, and he got upset to the point of deciding he'd take the kids and go to his sister's. I'm hoping Noah is carrying a fair amount of guilt about what he is doing, has done, etc. He knows that most people see him as the guy who left his great wife and kids for a much younger woman. When Helen screws up, for a moment he feels like maybe he's not the worst human being ever. Or maybe not as bad as Helen has been telling him he is, and so he gleefully tells his sister that now that Helen screwed up, he can sue for custody. It's sad, but in a lot of divorces, this type of pain point is used to put pressure on the settlement. I'm certain he's seeing this as a way to get more of a settlement out of Helen. Give me money and you get a custody arrangement you can live with. And Helen was using the fact that he was living 60 miles away, with his girlfriend, as not having the kids' best interests at heart. Give up your girlfriend, and you can have shared custody. Etc. My sympathies still lie with Helen, for the moment. I understand her pain. Noah gets to leave, gets "the love of a generation," and gets to keep his kids and gets some money. Does not seem fair.

Oh poor Helen...

Hmmm. At the moment, I liked bits and pieces of this two-parter. I loved the humor they inserted and the discussions about immortality. Capaldi really sold the part about how Clara would eventually be gone too and then he would go off in his box 'running away.' As did 11 when he lost Amy and Rory. And 10 when he lost Rose. I'm not loving the sonic sunglasses, though. Not sure why, they aren't something I want to own, unlike a sonic screwdriver. http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/10/doctor-who-season-9-great-woman-who-lived-maisie-williams And this article bothers me too. I have enjoyed Clara. I thought the impossible girl story was great, and I enjoyed last season's Flatline, The Caretaker, The Mummy on the Orient Express, Listen, and the finale. So a good bit of the season. And I like mythology and an over arching storyline, so boo to those who got rid of it. I guess it's all down to personal tastes. As for this episode, I was heartbroken for Lady Me when she realized that the Doctor wasn't there to take her with him. All those years, thinking she might travel with him. And then to realize that he just 'bumped' into her. No wonder she got cynical. And I didn't understand the ending at all. So Lady Me has decided she does care about humans, yet the Doctor is a frenemy? And why is she following Clara? Shouldn't she be in photos of other companions too? I'm still watching, because I hope that the article is wrong and that there is an over-arching mythological intent to this season.

stillshimpy, well said!!! Loved everything you wrote, except that I do like Helen (for now) from what I've seen. That may change later on as the show progresses. I actually enjoy all of the characters. Noah however is being portrayed as pretty narcisstic at the moment.

Hoo boy, there is a lot in this response, some I liked and agreed with, and some, maybe not so much. First, I love Woody Allen movies too. One of my favorites is A Midsummer Night's Sex Comedy, which is charming and fun. And somehow I knew that part of your argument for affairs being a part of healthy long-term relationships would be to say 'look at the French.' ;) I'm not certain why one would choose to marry if they had no real intention of faithfulness, OR at least the 'out' of, as long as the partner never knows, it's okay to have relationships outside of the marriage. If two people agree that they will have an "open" marriage, that's a different thing and involves both partners agreeing to it. (Although my experience with that is that one partner has one foot out the door, and the other partner agrees to it as a means to keep the marriage, and not because they enthusiastically endorse the lifestyle.) Fidelity, in my view, requires being considerate of the other partner's needs, emotions, etc. Many times an affair, or additional relationship, takes something away from the initial coupling. Regardless of what people say, having sex with someone creates a bond with that person. I really believe that. Recreational sex, so to speak, isn't really possible. And if it is purely recreational, at some point it will not be fulfilling. A recent movie, Don John, did a wonderful job of pointing out that it is the affection and love between people that makes sex wonderful, and not how 'perfect' someone looks. Real intimacy comes from knowing our partners well and that comes from much time spent together. And yes, no relationship is perfect. But I don't think Noah and Alison are not in love because they are starting to adjust to the realities of being together. I just haven't seen what I consider real love between them. My opinion. Maybe they will get there. I think it's unlikely they will.

I see what you are saying, and I agree with a lot of it. I don't think it's much different from me saying that they are in lust (which many people mistake for love) and I am interested in seeing if they build a genuinely loving and caring life from this start. I doubt they will. What I do think the show has done well so far is show the fallout from Noah and Allison's actions. Having watched many of my friends go through the dissolution of long-term marriages that they, at least, were happy in, I will say that all affairs and break ups of long term marriages have similar patterns and the show shows that very well. And I'm certain that my own experiences color my view of what is happening in the show, but that would be true of any show I'm watching. So I will continue to watch, as I find it well acted and well written, and I am interested in the murder mystery, but I doubt that I'm gonna root for Alison or Noah. Maybe Alison, but Noah is going to have to show me he's got a heart somewhere.

I wonder if they will do a show incorporating the premiere of the new Star Wars movie? Given that they are fans of the franchise, and it seems to be big news that The Force Awakens is being released, I can't help but think there will be some mention of it.

Thank you, SlackerInc, for your reply. It is an interesting argument, that because so many marriages are failing, affairs should not be stigmatized, or, at least in this instance, this is a love so great it is worth shattering so many people's lives. I think, though, that I would not be rooting for these two even if it wasn't an affair because I have not seen any real love between them. I know that Treem has said that she considers Alison and Noah to be soulmates, whatever that means. As for the thought that there should be no stigma attached to having an affair, because so many people are doing it, well, not sure I can reason it that way. To me, an affair is really about selfishness and self-delusion. The desire for the other person is there, the conscious decision is made to betray the current relationship and once the breach of the current relationship has been made, it's impossible to ever have that back. Affairs are destructive, not just to the spouses or partners left behind, I believe they are destructive to the participants as well. But most people, in their lust, do not think about that. And our ideas about romantic love are certainly tied to the popular cultural notion of hot sex, and few responsibilities (and something new and shiny). Statistically, an affair is not a great start to a lasting relationship. The percentages of second, and third, marriages that end in divorce are higher even than the divorce percentages for first marriages. Generally an affair is not the answer to finding a lasting relationship. And so far, I think the show has done an outstanding job of showing the patterns that occur in affairs, and the aftermath.That is why I keep watching. To see Helen and Cole going through the grief that all left-behind spouses must go through, and to have it portrayed so well is fascinating to me. And to see Noah and Alison begin to navigate through the reality of their situation is interesting as well. It may be that the idea of what a marriage is and how one maintains it does need to be changed. People used to get married to have families and to build wealth. Maybe it will evolve to stages. Starter marriage, child raising marriage, soul mate marriage. But even if you believe that the institution of marriage is outdated, people who commit to each other, and agree to be exclusive and have a history together (kids, property, experiences) will still be cheaters and cheating, if they step out of that commitment, and lie and hide that they have done so. People will still be hurt. I'm really surprised that Treem is surprised by the backlash against her lovers. And finally, I'm now wondering if the baby Alison has is Oscar's given that she told Noah it was a couple of weeks ago that she had slept with him.

Would love to hear your reasons for believing they are in love. Maybe you can change my mind because I've not seen love between them, yet.

Loved this episode! So cute! I died laughing when Jane woke up Michael in the tent. So well written, and so perfectly acted. This show is one of my favorites, and it's because the entire cast is great. Love each and every one of them.

This episode reminded me of what I thought about Noah and Alison last season. I've seen plenty of lust between them, but no real love yet. I can understand Noah thinking he wants to marry Alison, I just don't know if they are in love. On Noah's part, he blew up his family and his life to be with Alison, so maybe he figures he HAS to move towards marriage, or else he's been lying to himself about why he did this. I thought Alison was probably the most honest when she was talking in the woods with Robert, and I actually felt I had more empathy with her then. (As did Robert.) One of the most tragic things that can happen to a person is to lose a child. I don't think she's healed enough from that (if one can ever completely be whole again) to enter into a new relationship, so I think the start of the affair and then the leaving of Cole and moving in with Noah is definitely Alison trying to escape the pain she is feeling. Not a great basis for a relationship. Whether they can build something out of this lust-fueled escape fantasy remains to be seen.

I think Jamie has different rings because she and Doug got married a second time and it was a tv special.

Don't donors have to be recently dead for the organs to be viable? That's what bothered me about the story, seemed like they were taking organs after it was too late to use them. Not sure why I continue to watch, but I do.

Okay, well, I was glad to see Doctor Schwartz again, because I like her. And I did enjoy seeing the two couples again. I was so disappointed in the second season of Married at First Sight, because I found the first season to be so charming. I'm in the minority on here, I know, but I kind of like the show exploring what it takes to make a lasting relationship. To me the experts have never said anything that I would disagree with about building lasting relationships. So I find the show interesting in that respect. I'm in for watching it.

Anyone check to see if Episode 3 is available yet? Just wondering.

From seeing the Fisher King in the trailer released before the show started up again, I had hoped they were revisiting the story from Torchwood about the children sacrificed to the aliens. Such a dark story and Peter Capaldi was excellent in it. So was unprepared for ghosts. Or underwater stuff. I dunno. I liked part one of this story better than part two, but I still miss the style and feeling from Doctor Eleven's tenure and the first year of Doctor Twelve. This just seems cold to me. I was sad that O'Donnell died but loved the doctor tackling the Bennett when Bennett tried to go to her in the half-hour loop. (Love the actor who played Bennett, he was wonderful in Arthur and George). And I'm glad the Doctor cares enough about Clara to try to save her, would have been disappointed in him if he didn't. However, his "this planet is protected" speech to the Fisher King felt flat to me. Supposed to be heroic, but I didn't feel it. Fingers crossed that next week is better.

Nooooo, not Pacey!!!!! So glad we got Cole's point of view. Love the contrast with the way he remembered himself looking when he first visited Alison, and how he looked at the court room. But, as others have said, if it turns out that he killed his brother to get back at Noah, I'm not going to be happy.

Whoa is right! Do we know which story this special is based on? Or is it pure invention by the writers?

Well, a lot of the strong feeling against Clara (that I've read) was that her character was too bossy, controlling, and take charge, instead of following the Doctor with little to no argument. Last year it seemed that all I read was OUTRAGE over Clara daring to tell the Doctor how to behave. So I think it is a fair point. And to get back to this episode, I felt it was closer to old Who than any of the shows since Moffat started running the show. That doesn't mean I liked it more, some of my favorite episodes of NuWho have been during his tenure, but I could sense the style change. And I did enjoy this episode. Not sure it will add much to the mythology of the Doctor, but I'm intrigued enough to want to see the resolution. I like to see the relationship between the Doctor and his companions but old Who didn't seem to develop that as much as NuWho has. Part of that was the start with the romance developing between Doctor and Rose, and continued on from there. If the trajectory now is to focus more on individual adventures, okay, I'll watch, but for me, the companions and the Doctor are the core reason to watch.

I'll have to rewatch this, was this during Helen's POV or Noah's? If Noah's it could be that he saw her trying to control his choice of where to live with her parents' money and that she had always used that money to control him. If Helen's POV, she may have thought she was offering a solution that would work well for the kids and was being generous so he wouldn't have an excuse not to see them. From Helen's POV, again, she is used to making decisions about the kids with Noah, and now she tries to do that again, not understanding just how broken their connection is at this point. And Noah, feeling some guilt over what he's done, has to make her out to be controlling and cold, in order to not feel like he's a terrible person. It's pretty much a universal reflex for people leaving relationships to rewrite their history with the ex to make it look like they needed to leave or that they were right in leaving. The person they were closest to in the world now has to be diminished somehow so that they can live with what they are doing.