SueB

Ah! Nice juicy topic for the morning for me! First my disclaimers/biases/whatev's: I don't have a huge problem with shows portraying family saying shitty things to each other when their fighting.It's a BAD thing but it's a REAL thing. No one matters to you more than family and no one can hurt/betray you more than family in the heat of an argument. And some of that shit scars for LIFE. So, it's not like that doesn't matter. I'm just saying it's realistic so I'm okay when the Show does that. Now what I WANT to see is that they don't go for the jugular (which is EASY pickings for these people). I want to see that their love for each other will stop them short of saying the truly awful stuff. Specific examples: -- Early season fighting about good soldier vs abandoning the family. Both are approaching go-for-the-jugular arguments but they are realistic FAMILY arguments. Post John's death, I would have hoped they would have tread more lightly there. -- "Suck it up" statements from Bobby - I actually think Bobby was trying to help. To get Dean to see the bigger picture and that losing Sam was not what Dean really wanted. So..I'm totally okay with Bobby telling him to reach out to Sam, even if Sam hurt him. Bobby's delivery was harsh but this may be what Dean needed. Bobby telling him that he was a better man than his Daddy was, IMO, a telling point and showed that Bobby's heart was with Dean. Finally, sometimes I think you have to set your own hurt aside and see the big picture. That hurt needs to be addressed (which NEVER happens on Supernatural) but snapping someone out of a funk is okay by me,. - Sam's "boo hoo" came from the Siren/Ruby/Demon blood influence. But Dean has said well "boo hoo" before. So it felt like throwing something back in Dean's face. It was a HORRIBLE "go for the jugular" speech and I didn't like it. And we are given every indication that this is Sam un-chained. That Sam really had these thoughts. Well that sucks. OTOH, my comment about Sam searching for a justification to drinking Demon blood says to me Sam was in a heavy rationalization mode at this time. Doesn't make me like what's going on with Sam but I see how they got from point A to point B. IA. To me it all comes down to that critical turning point in Criss Angel... where Sam goes back under Ruby's influence and it's so POORLY justified. I guess I figured once he was letting Ruby pour poison in his ear, Sam lost his perspective on Dean. So... in the end, I guess I'm saying that things that bother others don't bother me so much. But the episode I blame most is Criss Angel vice Lucifer Rising. For me, when I see someone who is experiencing a conundrum akin to my real life, it helps me bear it.

I've been thinking just the opposite regarding Jensen and movies: - he sold his Malibu house and moved to a house a half mile away from Jared's in Austin Texas (NJCON) - he told the VanCon crowd he was totally up for doing a S11 (so much that it confused people about S11 being a go... it's not, Jensen just said he's on-board) - he said in either a TCA or Comic Con interview that he told his manager not to show him scripts which he can't possibly do because they interfere with Supernatural - In the past we KNOW he auditioned for Guardians and the conflict with Supernatural couldn't be worked out. So... perhaps he's said it's one or the other and he's picked Supernatural. On a related note: - Dude is just happier, more relaxed these days at these conventions. Don't know why but good on him. To me he's given every indication of a guy who is going to ride Supernatural til it's done and THEN figure out where life takes him next. JMO YMMV. So..it seems to me, if he's going to do a big movie, it's a studio pull vice an actor push. Now add that Jensen is sort of a WB property and it's Disney who owns Marvel. That'd be one helluva pull from a rival studio to get Jensen in a Marvel movie without him trying at all. And Supernatural is just not going to adjust the story to let one of the two leads be MIA for extended period. Jensen is awesome but I don't expect that big of a push for him. Add to that, he's getting older and has a child now. If they want #2, timing is about right this upcoming summer. Everything he's done (move to Texas, showing commitment to the steady gig, being relaxed) says to me he's a man happy where he is at and not focused on becoming a major movie star. Again JMO YMMV.

...To the Actor Thread!

Thanks Awesome04000 for fixing the score. Hmmm, I thought the blood and desperate need to rationalize his choices is what drove Sam to belittle Dean. As he told both Chuck and Ruby, he felt it was on his shoulders cause Dean was too weak. When the reality was that he was looking to justify his otherness and resolve the anger he had inside. It's complicated though and I can see why the kid who idolized his brother, to the point of trying to be ready to be like him when he was sent to hell, seems out of place with the crap he said in the Siren episode. Yes that was under influence but it was, I think, in the direction of his mindset. Well, how ever Sam got thrown under the bus, he was there IMO.

Always the executioner... see, I really LIKE S4. So downvoting anything for me is just housekeeping. Personally, I would have kept Lucifer Rising ahead of several on the list, but the will of the tribe has spoken, so... off it goes. Personally I felt Lucifer Rising was a good episode -- with one exception. The exception was how far they pushed with Sam and the Nurse. It was horrible to watch. What made it worse for me was not that Zachariah was a smarmy dick who made him think Dean hated him (and I am forever bitter we never got any indication that was ever cleared up), no what made it worse was after hearing the faux message, THIS is when Sam presses ahead. For me, it makes it worse. Sam isn't riding a demon blood high at this moment. It's a rationale act and it's character assassination in my book. /rant off. OTOH, I do want to talk about some of the awesomeness that IS this episode. First we get the beautiful room and it's creepy changing portraits. I loved how they shifted when Zach started confessing the whole truth. The Dean/Cas scenes are fan-fucking-tastic. As is the moment when Chuck puts his hand on Cas' shoulder. I thought Lillith was great at the end there -- taunting Sam to "bite". Man, was she evil. I do like that Ruby uses the Dumbo analysis in this episode although I think it creates a great deal of LOL!Canon issues regarding Sam and Demon Blood. I don't care for Genevieve's delivery of "I'm awesome" but the character is not wrong. She really did pull off a masterful con operation. I like that the season ended with the two killing Ruby and then in such deep shit with Lucifer rising. *runs off to rewatch episode* On the Head of a Pin + Lucifer Rising -- It's a Terrible Life -- 34 - Lazarus Rising 29 - The Monster at the End of This Book 25- In the Beginning 22- On the Head of a Pin 21 - It's a Terrible Life 19 - Monster Movie 18 - Are You There, God? It's Me, Dean Winchester 17 - Yellow Fever 17 - Wishful Thinking 13 - Death Takes a Holiday Sent to Hell with No Hope of an Angel Rescue Criss Angel Is a Douchebag Family Remains Metamorphosis Sex and Violence I Know What You Did Last Summer Heaven and Hell After School Special It's the Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester The Rapture When the Levee Breaks Jump the Shark Lucifer Rising ETA: Watched again, skipped the nurse bits. Can't believe I found something new. I didn't realize that Dean is so shocked at the whole "we want Armageddon" plot that his hand actually shakes a bit and he holds onto the table.

Hey did you notice itty bits: - Dean's anti-possession tattoo is still ON. Not scratched out at all. So, it's not MUCH of a super-power Aeryn, but at least it's something unusual? I'm guessing because Dean transformed internally to a demon. It's not a demon wearing Dean's meatsuit. I suppose they did that on purpose to make that point. - He reaches for his MoC right after he says "oops". No clue why. Perhaps an subconcious tick Jensen added to the character. Observation from tumblr (I think it's persephoneshadow's) - Clothing for Dean is different for what appears to be the same scene (black vs green shirt) when he's at the karaoke bar. We may be looking at multiple people repeating the story to Sam.

Lots of gore and violence gets past S&P. Sex, not as much. Although Supernatural gets away with TONS of urban-dictionary phrases that I think S&P allows because they are the bad words. Truth be told, I think it's the show-runners who'll keep the most disturbing stuff off screen.

That's my expectation as well. BTW, there's an angel blade rolling around on the floor of the convenience store. So either another angel or Dean took the last guy's blade. Two images come to mind: - Crowley telling Sam he just wants to be loved, that he deserves to be loved! - Crowley and the three Team Free Will's (i.e. Goldilocks and the three bears). Cas was too righteous. Dean is too random. Does that make Sam "just right"?

Man, this Season is brutal. At this rate, we won't finish S4 before S10. Well I'm taking out "Jump The Shark". And with THAT, we are at the half-way point and voting rules change. +'s (plus-ups) are limited to a single count, --'s (downvotes) can still be two. Jump the Shark eulogy: This episode actually had some awesome bits for me. The freak-out by Dean of learning John had another son that he PROTECTED from the brutal hunting life. And so Dean immediately picks up on his father's wishes. When you look in the Psychology Dictionary, does it have Dean Winchester's picture next to the definition of Daddy Issues? Just putting that out there. Plus we get (as catrox pointed out) jeffries tube Dean as ex-cheerleader Jensen gymnastics with a pull-up bar. I also liked Sam getting to play older brother for a moment -- although I didn't like him roping Adam into the life. Didn't like: sorry, too gory for me with the eviscerating Sam moment. It's a Terrible Life -- On the Head of a Pin ++ Jump the Shark -- 35 - Lazarus Rising 31 - The Monster at the End of This Book 25- In the Beginning 25- On the Head of a Pin 21 - It's a Terrible Life 19 - Monster Movie 19 - Yellow Fever 17 - Are You There, God? It's Me, Dean Winchester 17 - Wishful Thinking 15 - Death Takes a Holiday 05 - Lucifer Rising Sent to Hell with No Hope of an Angel Rescue Criss Angel Is a Douchebag Family Remains Metamorphosis Sex and Violence I Know What You Did Last Summer Heaven and Hell After School Special It's the Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester The Rapture When the Levee Breaks Jump the Shark

Here to offer a few crumbs of rationalization on your concern. Also, just 'cause I'm offering this doesn't mean I don't feel your pain. There's a certain horrible feeling when you watch a character you relate to do things you just cannot accept. Been there. For Demon!Dean I'm going to spitball a couple of potential "why it may be not-sooooo-horribles" but I promise nothing, show could be worse than I'm suggesting. #1) Define "innocent". As Aeryn said, we aren't talking a Lilith-class babyeater here. And Dean has always had an edge to him when he thinks humans deserve punishment. Remember when he let the theif who was dying suffer a couple of seconds longer in "Appointment in Sammara?" That guy was not an innocent in Dean's mind and Dean told him hell was hot. So Dean has a morality to him that will save a douchebag from death-by-monster but doesn't lose much sleep when the "victim" is someone Dean thinks is a dirtbag. Video 'evidence': - The man Dean is pummeling on top of the truck was yelling at the woman before hand. Maybe he's abusive towards her (remember..spitballin...). In that case Dean is happy to exercise vigilante justice and beat the snot out of the guy. - The guy in the alley that he appears to use the Blade on is an angel I think. Not sure if he's innocent or not. - The bouncer -- no clue. - The convenience store - no clue So, the "no clues" COULD be innocents but both appear to be approaching Dean. So in Dean's currently demonic "warped" mind, there may be something about them that takes them off of the 'innocent' list and makes him think they deserve a beat down. Now normal Dean wouldn't do that because he has restraint. #2) "Pawing the stripper", treating his hookup bad. We know how much normal Dean loves sex and he seemed to genuinely appreciate porn stars, strippers, and potentially prostitutes. He's truly judgement free on this and presumes consensual participation by the women in the specific industry. Now the presumption of consensual participation is problematic from my perspective (Doylist view) but in-show, Dean shows admiration for these women. So..and this is definitely edging on fanwank vice just spitballin'... Dean may have a unfettered high opinion of his own attractiveness and skills. So perhaps he's presuming that he's giving these ladies a good time**. It sounds horribly arrogant but an all-id Dean could potentially go there. Video evidence: - "I'm Too Sexy." (Too soon for me to crow about calling that one?? Okay..) Seriously, look at those lyrics. Dude thinks he's sex on two legs. He's not actually wrong. - "Imaginary Lover." (not in the video but in the promo shot) Well .. apparently this is a song about..self love. And Dean is either indicating with this song choice that it's better than an actual hookup (i.e. 'himself' is better) or there's a hidden indication that he's having a difficult time feeling satisfied with his hookups. Man, these sentences are difficult to write. But I think you get the drift... - The way he's smiling at the stripper and she's smiling back, I'm not so sure she's giving him the 'go away you make me uncomfortable face'. So in Dean's mind, it's okay to grope because she's giving him non-verbal positive feedback. Normal Dean said last year that most of his "dates" were strippers. Normal Dean's view of a stripper appears to be that she enjoys what she is doing. So.. if in all-id Dean's mind, it's a consensual pawing...then maybe he doesn't think he's treating her bad. Now please note, the important thing here is that I'm suggesting Demon!Dean thinks it's consensual. I'm not suggesting ...not in any way/shape/form... that her profession allows him to take liberties. I just think Dean (demon or not) sees her as a person who would actually LIKE Dean to touch her. - Of all the morning-after mean-spirited things Dean could do with his blonde bed partner, starting off the conversation with "oops" suggests a lack of deliberate cruelty at least. But we don't know what the "oops" was about and what his rejoinder will be if she comments on the situation. I love Dean Winchester but he HAS the ability to be a jerk. He could very well say something more jerkish than he normally would if he feels she's offended by his lifestyle. Normally it appears he maintains the 'one night only' approach while simultaneously making the experience very personal (without pointing out that this is a frequent occurrence). If she says something critical, I can see him being verbally rough. So... I don't want to give false hope...but I can also see how this is an all-id Dean but still Dean. He's not eating babies. He's not out of his mind or on the edge of control (like Vampire!Dean). He seems to be aggressively pursing some hedonism and unilaterally deciding who is a an innocent and who is not. **ETA: One Tumblr interpretation was that he had a "happy ending" and she did not. Which would completely violate my theory and make him a jerk if they have a one-night-only and she doesn't get a happy. JMO YMMV.

Becky was pure speculation from TVGuide in terms of 'What if'. We have BTS indicating it's a high school production. Misha not being in 200 bothers me too as I feel he's directly connected to the show getting 10 years. Base on Ausiello's spoiler I think there are faux Cas and Croeley. That promo is is good IMO. The last karaoke bit is funny/horrible. I mean that in a good way. Sam torturing demons is kinda run of the mill. If this is the worst he does, I don't see the monster label. ETA: Wait a minute. He was singing MY PREDICTION (I'm Too Sexy)!!!! I thought it was "Imaginary Lover?" We have that promo picture and convention confirmation. Does this mean 2 songs? I think I may crawl under the table during this part of the episode. Because I can (and I liked the promo), I'm going to spend some time breaking down what I see. - It covers 3 episodes it appears - Sam is torturing a demon and she either tells Sam Dean is a demon or confirms it. So, clearly, Sam knows Dean is a demon before they have their confrontation in #3 - Dean is using the blade - at least two or three times -- which says to me he's killing - Dean wears a cowboy hat to the karaoke place? Must be a secret wish to be a cowboy. - Dean really doesn't care that he's caught on tape. If anything he pointedly is looking at the camera. What kind of an end-game is THAT? - "Oops" the morning after: another girl calls? Crowley leaves a damning message? IDK but it doesn't seem anything horrific - At one point I think he is fighting an angel because the opponent (in black) has an angel blade. - Cas and Sam's conversation about it not being "Dean" seems like a post-demon discovery - Seems like Crowley drops the dime on Dean to Sam and Sam thinks Crowley has stuck Demon Minion #3 in there. Crowley sets him straight. - Crowley's proposal to Dean? Unless there's more too it, it's not very sophisticated. Why on earth would Crowley think Dean wants to run Hell? I think Dean would find it boring. - Cas is with Hannah - Cas gets beat up by another angel (not Hannah) with a blade - Cas appears to have crashed his pimp mobile. - Dean appears to be clearly more than Crowley can handle. - Sam calls it a disease (apparently) and I like that Dean says he doesn't want to be cured. (Because why would he? What is his upside if he's a demon?) Raised hope/expectation: Carver oversold the monster bit. Dean is horrific from a killing people perspective but he's still got a "Dean-ness" to him so I think it'll ultimately be okay. Him letting himself get caught on video tape is interesting. It could just be "doesn't give a shit", but it also seems like baiting (Sam or the police). Lowered hopes/expectations: I'm definitely of the impression the rowdy-Dean is 3 episodes only. I don't know if he's cured (or tamed) by EP 4 but demon-rampage bit is over. I think they oversold some things. I also am worried we have very little Cas. I want a Cas/Dean confrontation. My perspective BTW: I KNEW the minute he took on the Mark of Cain that Dean was going to be dragged through the dark mud. I'm not happy he's a demon. I'm hoping he somehow gets back to human. If he never gets back to human than I very very sad. It's his humanity that makes him easy to relate to. But I'm here for the ride and hoping that we get SOME form of Dean back but someone who doesn't think he's a pile of shit. And I still have hope for that.

-- Jump the Shark ++ On the Head of a Pin --It's a Terrible Life 35 - Lazarus Rising 31 - The Monster at the End of This Book 27 - In the Beginning 27- On the Head of a Pin 19 - It's a Terrible Life 19 - Are You There, God? It's Me, Dean Winchester 19 - Monster Movie 17 - Yellow Fever 17 - Death Takes a Holiday 17 - Wishful Thinking 09 - Lucifer Rising 01- Jump the Shark Sent to Hell with No Hope of an Angel Rescue Criss Angel Is a Douchebag Family Remains Metamorphosis Sex and Violence I Know What You Did Last Summer Heaven and Hell After School Special It's the Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester The Rapture When the Levee Breaks

This makes me ridiculously happy.

I think this is entirely possible. It's the start of S10 and the S8 Amelia storyline was boiled down to: that was a fantasy life Sam thought he wanted (hence all the saturated lighting) but it's not his reality. And when it came down to it, he choose mission over fantasy.

-- On the Head of a Pin -- In the Beginning -- It's A Terrible Life 33 - Lazarus Rising 29 - The Monster at the End of This Book 25 - In the Beginning 23 - On the Head of a Pin 21 - It's a Terrible Life 19 - Are You There, God? It's Me, Dean Winchester 19 - Monster Movie 17 - Yellow Fever 17 - Death Takes a Holiday 17 - Wishful Thinking 09 - Lucifer Rising 05- Jump the Shark Sent to Hell with No Hope of an Angel Rescue Criss Angel Is a Douchebag Family Remains Metamorphosis Sex and Violence I Know What You Did Last Summer Heaven and Hell After School Special It's the Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester The Rapture When the Levee Breaks

Went back and looked at the original Carver wording (per the linked script in the all episode thread).http://itsjustjensen.tumblr.com/post/96416980858 Carver's wording: "I was okay with it. Before I knew you were actually going to die." To me, this wording is Sam unambiguously saying he was wrong. This is stating that when faced with reality of Dean's death, Sam couldn't live up to his principles of having a moral event horizon line he wouldn't cross. Jared's modification to "I lied." is both better and worse from a Sam perspective. 1) WORSE perspective: "I lied." meant he knew Dean was right but he wanted to hurt Dean so he lied. Kinda cruel. On the other hand, the brothers were one-upping each other the entire episode. And it's pretty realistic to "fire for effect" when you've been hurt. And Sam was deeply hurt. He put his trust in Dean to always "do the right thing". And Dean failed him, on a very personal level. And Sam kept saying he couldn't see how being alive was a good thing when Kevin was dead. That Sam vs Kevin trade (which it wasn't at the time of Dean's decision but ended up being the consequence of Dean's decision in both Sam & Dean's mind) kept coming up from Sam's perspective. He brought it up in Road Trip. Said it blatantly in First Born. Said it again in The Purge. Brought up Kevin's death in the finale. 2) BETTER perspective. Because Sam isn't stupid. Although it's very real to think you will stand behind you principles, only to find out "not so much" when push comes to shove, Sam's been down this road before. He's had to stand behind his principles. He's also had to deal with Dean dying and turned into Robo-Hunter. So, "I lied" is better because it acknowledges Sam's history and says that while he knows Dean is right, admitting that to Dean is not the right answer. Dean needs to know he went TOO FAR. Admitting that to Dean at the time of The Purge means sweeping his trauma under the rug and letting Dean off the hook. My opinion: Jared did the right thing. It was a choice between showing Sam to be naive or Sam to be petty. Jared essentially respected Sam's intelligence more than Carver IMO. Jared reasoned that lying meant Sam understood it was better to be petty and mean to your brother rather than let him walk all over you. Dean wanted to just put a few "X's" in the win column. He knows he messed Sam up but he doesn't want to DEAL WITH IT. So Sam held his ground and essentially rejected Dean's arguments (whether or not they were good) because he wanted Dean to understand what he put Sam through. Because he wants Dean to let him die rather than have a consequence that trades an innocent's life for Sam. And the only reason he puts that aside is because the MoC and Metatron are a bigger deal. Dean is marching off on a suicide mission and Sam is not going to let the on-going argument get in the way. Sam still hasn't forgiven Dean for the choice Dean made. He still brought it up in the finale (about nightmares seeing his own hands killing Kevin). But he doesn't need to forgive Dean at that moment. He never stopped loving Dean. He just needs to be there for Dean as he takes on Metatron. But the conundrum for Sam (at least at first) is that he thinks Dean just doesn't get it. This is also what Carver said in the documentary BTW. The reality, IMO, is that Dean isn't wired that way. Trying to make Dean turn into something he's not isn't going to work either. Sam either lives with it (Dean's prime directive of 'save Sam') or he walks away. And Sam isn't going to walk away. Personally I think Carver knows this and it's bullshit when he says Dean doesn't get it. In Road Trip Dean said two really important things in that last speech: 1) 'it's not in me'... to let Sam die and 2) 'I'll burn for that." The first says that Dean is at least recognizing what he can and can't do. He let Sam go before when the entire world was on the line. It nearly destroyed him. He was in "misery"(EP 6.1). Letting Sam die vs violating Sam on a personal level? Yeah. He'll let Sam go thru possession rather than let him die. He still had hope it would all work out. Which brings me to #2) going to hell for Kevin's death. He KNOWS the consequences of his actions was an innocent's death. So his solution (including in the finale) was to take all the consequences on himself and shield Sam. He told Sam "that's on me" (Kevin's death) but that doesn't stop Sam from feeling guilty. He sidelined Sam for both the Abbadon and Metatron confrontation. But the consequence for Sam was a out-of-control MoC Dean post Abbadon and a dead Dean post Metatron. So Sam's alive... but he's still suffering. And just in case there is any confusion on where my heart lies: - I totally sympathize with Dean's decision regarding Gadreel. I don't care if it's selfish, I'd do the same thing to my child (and Dean was totally parentified by John regarding Sam). - I totally empathize with Sam regarding the need to have control over his own life. I'm not stupid. People shouldn't make those kind of calls for me. Why would I think Sam would be okay with Dean making those call for Sam? Which leads me to: - I think Carver actually feels the same way. He's just a kid with a big magnifying glass and we are the ants. He wants us to feel the freaking heat & pain of these terrible conundrums. He's doing a good job.

To be fair, I think it is our assumption that Carver is either baffled or shocked by audience reaction. He never says or infers that. Instead he states the storyline in a way that is different than I expected him to. For me, it came across as "expectation shaping". But that doesn't mean Carver was surprised by audience reaction. Just that his statements were not what I perceive to be consistent with his viewpoint in S8. Specifically, S8 DVD say "the brother's choose each other" with the "yay" vibe. S9 is "the brothers choose each other" with the "selfish" vibe.

On the Head of a Pin ++ Wishful Thinking -- (Sam Raime's character gets away too easy) Jump the Shark -- 35 - Lazarus Rising 27 - In the Beginning 27 - The Monster at the End of This Book 27 - On the Head of a Pin 21 - Yellow Fever 19 - Death Takes a Holiday 19 - It's a Terrible Life 19 - Are You There, God? It's Me, Dean Winchester 17 - Monster Movie 15 - Wishful Thinking 09 - Lucifer Rising 05- Jump the Shark Sent to Hell with No Hope of an Angel Rescue Criss Angel Is a Douchebag Family Remains Metamorphosis Sex and Violence I Know What You Did Last Summer Heaven and Hell After School Special It's the Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester The Rapture When the Levee Breaks

I think you are right -- he expected more sympathy with Sam than he got. Personally I could see the 'man behind the curtain' in the way Sam's hurt turned into Dean isolation. So I could still empathize with Sam because 1) he deserved empathy and 2) the miscommunication contrivance machine was on "SuperHigh" setting. But I do agree, I think Carver thought he did a better job then he did.

Awesome04000, I completely get what you are saying about "damning with faint praise". I felt that how they handled Sam in S8 really had that feel to it as well. I'm not so sure about S9. This is why I binge watch too. Since I binged watch S1-S8 I really felt more in touch with the broad strokes of the story than the details. As I said back on TWOP, weekly watching is a bit of an experiment. Surprisingly, I'm loving it. Not as awesomesauce as binge-watching, but the live tweeting makes it more fun for me. But as I said above, I agree, the show STORY is what they put on air. That's the canon. But I do think Carver & company are playing around with using an engagement style that is different than other shows. I don't know of any show that metas as much as this show metas in the history of meta.

I completely agree a show should stand on it's own without DVD commentaries, extras or external media whatsoever. And if it doesn't that's the showrunner's fault. OTOH, I watched all 11 hours of the Lord Of the Rings Edition X 4 separate commentaries plus EVERY single extra feature, including the gallery. I bet I have over 80 hrs invested in that trilogy. It's my thing. I love the total immersion experience and knowing all the nooks and crannies. I didn't have to watch it to enjoy the movies but I really enjoyed what I learned in the extras. So...it enhanced my experience. I see no different with the Supernatural DVD's extras. If you want the extra material and it enhances your enjoyment, then yay. If you don't want it, then that's your call. Can the commentaries/interviews/documentaries change "canon"? Isn't that the real question? My interpretation of anything that got left on the cutting room floor (i.e. deleted scenes) is that it's not in the show and the show-runners won't reference it. So, for example, in S8... when Crowley and Sam have that excellent conversation about Sam killing Crowley right after the trials. Well, it didn't make the episode so ...it didn't actually happen in the series. Did it influence how I look at Crolwey? Potentially. I'm not smart enough to usually keep all that in my head (what made the cut, what did not). So there is probably lingering effect. OTOH, I don't think I've ever intentionally included a deleted scene as rationale for a POV. Could be wrong. But I think it's not right to do that because it didn't make the as-broadcasts. What about commentary? Well it informs me to be sure. I'm not sure I'd let my impression of something hinge on extra material. At least not on purpose. Finally, as I said above, I think Carver & company are actively trying to shape viewer experience with their documentaries. But that doesn't mean they are telling the truth. So... I take it for what it is....another data source. Which leads me to: - It sure LOOKS like they are going to pin this mostly on Dean. We'll see. - catroz14, loved your rant about Sam's soft-pedelling on Dean's bloodlust. So TRUE. - Aryen, I don't feel like I'm being told to live in Sam's buttcrack. So... I'll agree to disagree with you on that one. Bottom line: grain of salt. I think there's data there that I will factor in as I watch. I will scour every minute of the DVD when I get it. But I don't think using that as the basis of a position is warranted as I'm not sure there's actual truth in every part of it and telling what is/isn't true is a shooting match.

https://twitter.com/superwiki/status/508735787408424961 Found the link. DDD. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this. I don't think Carver is as brilliant as he thinks he is but I don't think he's just winging it. I do think he should take a more firm hand on some of the story telling. I think Adam Glass works fine both as a writer and lead writer but I feel like Jeremy should be paying more attention to details. I think he and Singer have a common vision. BTW, another indicator of the 'experience' thing I'm babbling about is Robbie Thompson talking about Dean's traumatic childhood. I think Kripke was more like 'suck it up Dean' and Robbie resonates with the AUDIENCE vibe that Dean's parentification was traumatizing.

"light shining out of every orifice"... sounds like quite the party!

I think it's intentional. I think we're in another kindof-experimental form or story-engagement. Don't laugh, I'm serious. Supernatural has been doing this for a while, and I think Carver's random commentary is not just commentary -- it's part of the story "experience". I'm REALLY not explaining this well. I'll give more obvious examples: - Actors, directors, & crew live tweeting is like live DVD commentary. It changes the viewing experience. - DVD commentary changes your perspective (story experience) on an episode. - The documentaries on Supernatural have been mixed. Some are par-for-the-course topics: like everything about the Impala. OTOH, some (like two from S8 and one..thus far..from S9) are more story perspective. And since Carver has stated he's running a 3 year arc, I think these mid-story perspectives are not definitive views but story-driven intentional viewpoints. He's adding to the story, not just explaining it. So... in S8 you had a big buildup to the trials and a "WTF?" ending. Carver tells you the brothers choose each other. And it's portrayed as a life-affirming, family is more important move. Now in S9 we find out that the consequences of that event was all down-side. Kevin is dead, Cas is dying, Sam's a mess, Dean's a demon , and Han is encased in Carbonite (whoops, wrong story). Crowley...IDK..jury is still out if he's a good guy or bad guy or "benevolent malevolence" as Sheppard put it. So I tolerate Carver's flip-flopping because he's actually a part of the larger story "plot". He's not intending to tell us "absolute truth". He's giving perspective at a moment in time. There is no absolute truth because the story isn't finished. Worse yet, there may never BE absolute truth. We may eventually get what Carver MEANT to provide as truth but too much of story experience these days includes audience viewpoint to have one "absolute truth" be the end all be all. Wow, it sure sounds like I've been drinking. But I haven't. We'll, not alcohol at least.

Just watched the Decision and Consequences featurette from S9. I'm sure someone will post the link soon. But I'm just kinda ..IDK..needing to express thinky thoughts. First, Jeremy Carver is ...not exactly a lying liar who lies...because he says the SAME thing at the end of S9 that he did at the end of S8.... but it's a totally different interpretation. So I think Jeremy views not only DVD features but all engagement with fandom as an exercise in shaping the viewing experience. I think (JMO, of course), that we STILL do not have the full unvarnished Jeremy Carver perspective on S8 and S9. Even though he's talking a great deal. I feel like I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop (or in this case, a third shoe). Enough babble: What he said is a repeat of the Boys Choose Each Other speech. But this time, it's not a good thing. It's an understandable but selfish thing. His viewpoint is very much with Sam (which I kinda like BTW). Sam is the voice of reason in S9. But of course it's not that clear. Sam is also struggling to figure out what to do. But Sam (per Carver) is rightly questioning whether or not they did the right thing at the end of S8 by stopping the trials (especially stopping them in mid-point). But I'm just not sure we've heard the end of the discussion on that moment yet -- from Carver. Dude is definitely playing a long game. There's a LOT to take in with this featurette. I really need to watch it again. I'll keep the rest of the comments short: - I think they have some awesome ideas-- I'm not sure we got 100% carry thru from concept to script. But I do find the perspective's of the writers/Carver/Singer fascinating. - The impression I'm left with is that Dean is paying for the consequence of stopping the trial and his bouncing from one rash act to another is why he's a demon. Yes, I think they are putting the blame of Demon!Dean at least partially on Dean's shoulders. Crowley is manipulating him, no doubt, but Dean got into this with rashness. - I loved the way they described Kevin's death as the key (or at least that is my interpretation). Because Kevin was totally innocent. This is why his death affects Dean so much. He knows it was bad, not just sad (my words, not theirs). - Cas' journey is one that I feel got shortchanged. I want to see what they see but I feel like we missed a lot. - Crowley OTOH, is still as ambiguous as ever. Mark Sheppard does more talking than I usually see him do.. and I think I'm coming to the opinion even CROWLEY doesn't know if he's a good guy or bad guy. He's Crowley. He's in it for Crowley. But what Crowley wants... well that's complicated. (more than shower sex Dean, IMO). Again... I'm left with the impression that this featurette is another part of the total S9 viewing experience. It's not "the answers". It's more perspective and questions. ...off to watch again.