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I'll post more in the episode thread, but I think the short answer is there is some hesitation, alluded to but not directly vocalized, that Dean killing with the Mark of Cain may put him into a tailspin. It's like the elephant in the room that they sort of haven't talked about yet.

Having seen the promo, I've drastically lowered my expectations. Somehow the fans being kids just kinda, IDK, makes it less interesting. I did like the HORRIFIC notion that they have someone playing Mary stuck on the FREAKING CEILING. I'm telling 'ya, if being a demon and possessed by an angel didn't send these two to therapy, I'm thinking having middle schoolers re-enact the horrific death of their mother may just do it. The singing snippet was also bad. I think that's the other bit. I understand "musical-ish" vice musical, but I was hoping for actual good music. This is pantomime. So kids + dubious music = WTF Robbie?

I thought that was the brainwashing topic as well. I think was particularly important is Dean saying it's a losing battle. He earlier made a comment about being a demon is the "natural order". Taking the two together, it sure seems like Demon!Dean thinks he wasted his life fighting monsters and demons. That these creatures are part of the natural order and no hunter is ever going to do anything but eventually lose out. Contrast that to Dean in early S8 (Heartache) where he said that he felt good about the Hunting Life. That this is what he was best at and it made him happy. I guess what I'm saying is this is all feeding the "who are we and is what we do a good thing?" existential crisis the boys are going thru. In the past "Saving People, Hunting Things, The Family Business" was a credo for Team Winchester. And even if Sam didn't want that life, he didn't look at it as a waste of existence, just maybe not what he wanted. At this point Demon!Dean's comments combined, with poking at Sam's actions in looking for Dean, suggest that maybe the family credo is under the microscope. It'll be interesting to see the episode tonight to see if they address their thoughts on their profession as Hunters.

Aeryn13, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think that what is important and who gets better served is far too complicated by personal bias and preference.

In the Supernatural universe, not everything is 1 to 1 with our universe. Since the nature of sin has not been spelled out in-universe, I don't think we can be 100% definitive on the topic. OTOH, the ritual was created in-universe by a Catholic priest and Sam followed that ritual for curing a demon. So, if Sam actually wanted to use his own blood, he'd need it to be purified through confession per the ritual. In this specific incidence, the Catholic definition of sin would appear to apply. If Sam didn't know it was a sin but committed a sin (encouraging Lester to sell his soul is not an acceptable act from God's perspective) then it's a material sin. If Sam knew it was a sin and committed the sin, it's a formal sin. Both are still sins, but knowledge of the individual matters. Again, it only matters because of the specific need to purify. Sam purified his blood in S8 because it worked on Crowley. And he had the whole drinking demon blood thing to confess. So, if he was truly contrite about Lester, he should have been able to purify his blood. But I personnally think Sam is not ready to forgive himself or he mistakenly believes what he did was unforgivable. Regardless, he didn't try to use his own blood and this may or may not have anything to do with Lester.

Hammer of the Gods was a delightful episode that had a few problematic elements (all pagan deities do NOT eat people and it offensive in this regard for me). But it had some exceptionally memorable moments with the always delightful Gabriel. There a 'buffet of awesome' in this episode so I'll just do a little sampling; starting with the SUPER CREEPY (?) Mercury behind the desk. He was just 'off'. Then the actual buffet of desserts. Kali shutting down Dean cold. Passing by an open door with an actual elephant in the room. 'You can 'eat me, literally.' It wasn't tomato soup. Lucifer being truly terrifying. Gabriel being a last minute honorary member of Team Free Will. And, of course, the porn with the pornstache. In short, a highly entertaining episode. Changing Channels -- Hammer of the Gods -- Point of No Return + 42 - The End 42 - Dark Side of the Moon 40 - Changing Channels 26 - Point of No Return 18 - Sam, Interrupted Trapped in the box with Michael and Lucifer Fallen Idols Swap Meat The Devil You Know Sympathy for the Devil Free to Be You and Me 99 Problems I Believe the Children Are Our Future Swan Song Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid The Curious Case of Dean Winchester Two Minutes to Midnight My Bloody Valentine Good God, Y'All Abandon All Hope The Song Remains the Same The Real Ghostbusters Hammer of the Gods

I think, based on the look on Sam's face, Sam felt it was a sin. Regardless of his specific belief system, he clearly knows a God exist ( maybe absent), there is both a Heaven and a Hell, upstairs is better than the basement, etc... This takes no actual faith as Sam has proof. So, as Sam has said in the past, the road to Heaven is not what's paved with good intentions. It's not murder but it's not a small nit either IMO. And Sam's face seemed to indicate he knew that.

1. Even if the trials COULD be complete by Sam ATT, now is not the time to keel over (if completing the trials kills him). Dean still has the Mark of Cain. Closing Heaven left a mess, etc... Sam really should discuss it with a few people before executing. 2. Guilt is not a sin, encouraging Lester to sell his soul to the Devil? Yeah, that's a sin in my book. Probably most theologian's books too.

First off, YAY Buffy Reference. Second, I think there's an actual plot point with Sam using bagged blood. They didn't explore it but it could still be brought up -- maybe Sam doesn't feel his blood could get consecrated again after Lester. Then again, Demon!Dean should have exploited the topic in this episode so could be nothing.

Depends on if it's your time. Bobby ran away from his and turned into a ghost. Now personally I think Bobby did okay as a ghost for a while but his hatred of Dick Roman really sped him along to 'vengeful' quickly. And then Crowley paid his rent-a-reaper and took it to hell. What is my point?...I had a point...oh yeah....I think the oldies but goodies are still bad news.

The guy who played Nick Munroe, the Siren from S4 is in the movie Fury. His name is Jim Parrack. He had a decent role. Good movie BTW. Bloody. Violent. War Movie.

The idea behind 'The Real Ghostbusters' was kinda great IMO. It's definitely a step-up the meta ladder. Favorite bits: Sam and Dean's facial reaction to the surreal experience of seeing so many people dressing up like them. Plus the panel topics: "Frightened Little Boy: The Secret Life of Dean" and "The Homoerotic Subtext of Supernatural." I don't care who you are, having people examine your existence in such detail? Freaky. I liked Becky in this one, she gave excellent Bitchface to Franz about criticizing the book. And Chuck was freaking hilarious with his Q&A. I liked the nod to Damien and Barnes too. The B-plot ghost hunt was kinda par but the rest was just hilarious IMO. Point of No Return + The Real Ghostbusters -- Changing Channels -- 45 - The End 44 - Dark Side of the Moon 41 - Changing Channels 25 - Point of No Return 16 - Sam, Interrupted 08- Hammer of the Gods Trapped in the box with Michael and Lucifer Fallen Idols Swap Meat The Devil You Know Sympathy for the Devil Free to Be You and Me 99 Problems I Believe the Children Are Our Future Swan Song Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid The Curious Case of Dean Winchester Two Minutes to Midnight My Bloody Valentine Good God, Y'All Abandon All Hope The Song Remains the Same The Real Ghostbusters

At the ChiCon Meet-n-Greet Director Jensen Ackles confirms the blood type disconnect was a prop error. https://twitter.com/carryon_spn/status/526396194374029312 Thanks to CarryOn_SPN for live tweeting

I thought he absolutely knocked it out of the park in last week's 'Soul Survivor'. Between the pain, terror, guilt and exhaustion, I was really moved by Sam's situation. I'm a personal fan of drugged up or delirious Sammy. So 'San, Interrupted' and 'The Great Escapist' are favorites for me.

I'm very attached to Abandon All Hope. Do I hate that Jo and Ellen died? Yes. But there should be songs written about their bravery and their deaths. I love how BadAss these women are. Jo being the most clearheaded while holding in her own guts? What an awesome Hunter. And Ellen's unwillingness to leave her side? *sobs* it was so Ellen, and frankly what I'd do. Probably the best 'deaths' of all the characters IMO. BadAss, Meaningful, Heartbreaking. I forgive Kripke for killing them for two reasons: 1) he thought the series was ending, 2) it continued to resonate through episodes in both that season and later. Aside from the deaths, the night before celebration was just right. I loved the photo. The ton of Reapers was creepy, Meg called Cas Clarence, the Colt was ineffective on Lucifer, and we meet Crowley - who was delicious from the get go. All the acting in this episode was outstanding and it felt BIG. So, farewell fantastic 'Abandon All Hope', you were a great episode. I'll have to pass on a eulogy for 'The Song Remains The Same'. I loved the formation of Team Free Will but I can't stand the character assination of Anna. EDITED due to simul-post. Point Of No Return The Real Ghostbusters -- Hammer of the Gods -- 45 - Dark Side of the Moon 44 - Changing Channels 44 - The End 29 - Point of No Return 19 - Sam, Interrupted 11 - Hammer of the Gods 06 - The Real Ghostbusters Trapped in the box with Michael and Lucifer Fallen Idols Swap Meat The Devil You Know Sympathy for the Devil Free to Be You and Me 99 Problems I Believe the Children Are Our Future Swan Song Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid The Curious Case of Dean Winchester Two Minutes to Midnight My Bloody Valentine Good God, Y'All Abandon All Hope The Song Remains the Same

Dean could have just been screwing with Sam's head about the marriage.

I think you are spot on.

-- Changing Channels -- the Real Ghostbusters -- Hammer of the Gods 48 - The End 46 - Dark Side of the Moon 44 - Changing Channels 31 - Point of No Return 20 - Sam, Interrupted 16 - Hammer of the Gods 11 - The Real Ghostbusters Trapped in Cage with Michael and Lucifer. Fallen Idols Swap Meat The Devil You Know Sympathy for the Devil Free to Be You and Me 99 Problems I Believe the Children Are Our Future Swan Song Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid The Curious Case of Dean Winchester Two Minutes to Midnight My Bloody Valentine Good God, Y'All Abandon All Hope The Song Remains the Same

I'm going with continuity error. You just don't put in a game-changer plot point with just a prop and presume fan recollection of John's blood type. Since O neg goes to everything, the prop guys might have used that just to be safe. ETA, plus I think that whomever got John's Blood Type pulled it off his dog tags in 'Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things'. So if two props don't match, I don't think its enough to declare Dean illegitimate.

Thanks for the link! Now I know it.

Excellent point. Ironic or an indication that Crowley was right. Dean was still on the fence. A full-on darkside Demon!Dean would have killed Mindy just for kicks.

It's like "ask and you shall receive". I write a bit about not knowing the physical state of Dean right now and Natalie Abrams gives us scoop! http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/10/24/spoiler-room-supernatural-once-newsroom/ So...shakes but I don't think he's hacking blood.

I think it's pretty clear. Dean's soul has always been in Dean and present. Crowley specifically said it was "twisted". The term I personally would use is "corrupted". Deans' soul was corrupted as part of the resurrection process triggered by the MoC. Sam cured Dean's soul in "Soul Survivor". And by cure, I mean he re-sanctified it using sanctified blood. Using Crowley's terms, he untwisted it. As I see it: pre MOC - Dean's a normal human with a normal soul (battered perhaps but still normal) MoC - the Mark starts feeding physical effects into Dean, amping him up to violence. Dean's soul is ok. MoC and Blade combined post Abaddon kill - Physical effects are so bad Dean is slowly dying, hacking up bloody bits. He's not eating either.Dean's soul is ok but I think it may be under attack. He say's "I don't like what I'm becoming." Dean's death - The Mark (potentially with the Blade as a trigger), resurrects Dean. Dean's soul is completely corrupted. His eyes are black. He's a demon. Dean is "cured" - The sanctified blood and ritual apparently removed the corruption from his soul and his eyes are back to normal. He's not a demon. I don't know what his physical state is but he wants to eat. That seems like back to before he was in the "hacking up blood" stage.

That's tough to sell. We had a lot of that in Soul Survivor and there were complaints about it being too talky. The problem with #Thinman was how heavy handed it was. Perhaps this will be more subtle. Plus there's pre-amble and coda potential for the show to have just the bro's talking.

Exactly. This story is far from over but I saw nothing suggested that Dean's actions were whitewashed. He even used the term "murder" in Reichenbach when talking with Lester. Not "kill" or "gank" but "murder". I could argue that they Abaddon loyalists were "ganks" because 1) they were demons and 2) they attacked Dean. But Dean went out to murder Mindy. He murdered Lester instead. Just because Lester was an asshole and sold his soul doesn't make him a monster. He was a human Demon!Dean murdered. Personally I believe that Mindy was a test for Dean (by Crowley). Sam had Lester make that deal 4 weeks prior to the bulk of the events in "Black". Since when does it take that long for a crossroad's deal to be enacted? Crowley could have picked any other low-hanging fruit kill for Dean to get his murder-on. But he didn't. He held off until he made sure Dean was strung-out in Reichenbach and then offered up Mindy. He revealed Sam's involvement prior to Dean going off and doing the murder ("there's something you ought know..."). So... Dean knew this was Sam's mess when he went there. Perhaps Crowley thought it would intrigue Dean more knowing Sam was involved. IDK. But he did it on purpose I'm sure. I am. That's like handing a kid a loaded gun and being surprised it didn't work out well. Now it's a fascinating choice because we once again have someone (Lester) acting as unwitting bait. That's right out of the Soulless Sam playbook. And I'm sure that's intentional. So, if Sam had used a civilain and made him witting to act as bait -- then no problem what-so-ever. What Sam did was not only tell Lester he could have his revenge if he sold his soul, he did every step of the ritual except say the words. And even then they made a point of having Sam correct his crappy Latin. So Sam's hands are completely dirty in what happened to Lester. Now... how HORRIBLE is that? Well Lester lost his soul, so that's pretty horrible in my book. On the other hand, that wasn't Sam's intent. Sam intended call the demon and stop the process. Even Demon!Dean acknowledged that this was Sam's intent. But at the end of the day Lester is dead (via Dean) and his soul is going to hell (NOT because Mindy died but because he sold his soul and died with murder in his heart). It's theoretically possible Lester didn't go to hell but I don't think that's probable. He was a murderous scumbag who attempted to sell his soul to have his wife killed out of revenge. Not really a resume for Heaven. But let's be clear, Sam did something really wrong but it was Dean who actually murdered the guy. They've made it grey enough to not have either of our heroes completely over a line fans can's tolerate. But personally, I expect the show to treat Sam's choice to use Lester as a pretty bad moral act. And Dean's actions as a demon as something he's ultimately accountable for because he took on the Mark while actively ignoring the consequences. Dean assumed the consequences would only be for him. But Lester is dead because Dean was a demon. It's all 'Woulda/Coulda/Shoulda' on whether or not Lester was due for an early grave and Hell without the Winchester Brothers. Seems likely he would have ended up in the same place eventually. But that doesn't actually matter for Sam and Dean -- they sped Lester on his way and the schmuck was just a pawn in their lives. That's not a good thing or even a neutral thing in my book. That's a bad thing. As to who was worse? Meh. I'd probably finger Dean over Sam. But neither hands are clean. I don't think so. Show made a big point out of the MoC being an issue. If Dean dies again, he's back to a demon. I don't think the Mark will let him die. BEFORE his resurrection he was starting to exhibit exceptional hunting skills and telekinesis with the Blade. Crowley has the Blade but no way is he destroying it. He wants his BFF back I think. Dean didn't work out as a demon but it's leverage for Crowley and he won't give it up.