SueB

Clap Your Hand if You Believe is a fun, absurd, episode, IMO where Ben Edlund's imagination ran free to both horror and delight. Horror, of course, is the blatant association with an anti-gay message. It doesn't matter if it wasn't Edlund's intent, people were offended and rightly so. OTOH, the brilliance of the X-files homage, Soulless Sam unplugged, and the most reliable witness being the lady with the demitasse cups, is also hard to ignore. This is one of those cases where someone should have said 'how might people perceive what were doing', with a little more critical eye than the episode was afforded. Despite its problems, I can't help but laugh thru Sam's cluelessness and Dean fighting a Tinkerbell-esque fairy to David Bowie's 'Space Oddity.' -- Mommy Dearest -- The Man Who Knew too Much + Live Free or TwiHard 16 - Weekend at Bobby's 15 - Frontierland 15 - Appointment in Samarra 15 - The French Mistake 14- The Man Who Would Be King 14- Frontierland 12 - Mommy Dearest 09 - The Man Who Knew Too Much 03 - Live Free or Twihard In flagrante with the King of Hell All Dogs Go to Heaven Unforgiven Mannequin 3: The Reckoning Like a Virgin Family Matters And Then There Were None Let it Bleed Caged Heat Exile on Main St. You Can't Handle the Truth Two and a Half Men The Third Man My Heart Will Go On Clap Your Hands If You Believe

Live Fee or TwiHard+ -- Clap Your Hands if You Believe The Man Who Knew Too Much -- 22 - Frontierland 19 - Weekend at Bobby's 19 - The French Mistake 18- The Man Who Would Be King 18 - Mommy Dearest 16 - Appointment in Samarra 09 - The Man Who Knew Too Much 06 - Live Free or Twihard 01 - Clap Your Hands If You Believe In flagrante with the King of Hell All Dogs Go to Heaven Unforgiven Mannequin 3: The Reckoning Like a Virgin Family Matters And Then There Were None Let it Bleed Caged Heat Exile on Main St. You Can't Handle the Truth Two and a Half Men The Third Man My Heart Will Go On

I though it was funny that she walked around with her pinky extended. Like Crowley with his tease Cain's house. It tells me that Rowena is trying to claim a social status the she wasntborn in to. Crowley using the title of 'King' is also a sign of that pretension. As you may or may not know, you do not extend your pinky she drinking tea. The old custom was abandoned years before Rowena's time and it's a sign, back then, of someone trying to fit in, which makes it worse.

People have reactions to visual stimuli independent of context. I don't care if it's a medical video and the patient is under anesthesia, watching them operate on the eye gets a visceral reaction from me. I don't think it was intentional rape imagery. I think it was showing the brothers United in 'Ruby is evol and needs to die.' But, as I said elsewhere, their give a shit is IMO pretty low on this. Jensen reacted negatively to the image of adean slapping Meg. Kim Manners and Nicky Aycox had to convince him it was appropriate e because Dean saw a Demon', not a girl. I think that's their position.

This discussion reminds me the scene in Time After Time when Dean pulls up the video cameras and Sam is clearly jealous. Then he asks for the computer back and Dean says: "You can't let me bask in the glory for one second, can you?" To me, that particular scene read as pure sibling banter. Yes, there's that underlying resentment of pre-established 'roles', but Dean is sure enough of himself to call Sam on it. And this was during Dean's most depressed time. I guess what I'm saying is that it's definitely 'text' that Sam likes to be the winner in this particular competition. But I think Dean likes to be the winner in who's the better hunter. Sam should win most physical fights between them, but Dean usually seems to have the slight edge. It's the ancient 'I'm tougher' 'well I'm smarter' schoolyard crap they still fall back on IMO.

+ Live Fee or TwiHard -- The French Mistake -- The Man Who Knew Too Much 27 - Frontierland 24 - The Man Who Would Be King 23 - Appointment in Samarra 20 - Weekend at Bobby's 19- The French Mistake 18 - Mommy Dearest 12 - The Man Who Knew Too Much 08 - Live Free or Twihard 05 - Clap Your Hands If You Believe In flagrante with the King of Hell All Dogs Go to Heaven Unforgiven Mannequin 3: The Reckoning Like a Virgin Family Matters And Then There Were None Let it Bleed Caged Heat Exile on Main St. You Can't Handle the Truth Two and a Half Men The Third Man My Heart Will Go On

Dear British and Australian friends....rue meant " full"... Or has a new, naughtier, version of an American Thanksgiving tradition. Rue...thanks for the heads up. I'm currently recovered from the post dinner food baby watching the Cowboys getting waxed.

There's a nutmeg festival?? I thought the search was motivated by regret only. Hannah's return was triggered by Joe's appearance and the pain Joe was obviously feeling. I think he wondered how those Jimmy left behind portrayed Jimmy. The 'missing' is a little odd because his family actually knows. But it could be the only Internet reference and the family didn't change it. No body so 'missing' is a viable status. From a character perspective, I thought Hannah acted as an interesting comparison to Cas. How HUMAN Cas seemed. By riding around with Hannah, we got to see how Cas views the world and what his motivation is right now. Even re-powered he seems tired. If you look at the 'rogue' Angels as his last clean-up task (from Metatron's spell), I got the impression that he (like Dean) just wants to do 'right' things. I'm really hoping they address the souls who were stuck in the veil. Tessa committed suicide over that. I need to know Kevin is in Heaven too.

Of course! Honestly, I avoid negativity on Twitter/Tumblr. I have to assume (like 7kstar said) these cast & writers know how to sort the wheat and chaff. Oddly I've found that it takes two watchings for me to appreciate an episode. I blame it on live vs binge watching. For some reason I'm too distracted during the live viewing. I do think the season has set up each of the characters for their own development this year with big themes. Like last episode's 'consent and choice' vibe that became more evident to me on the second go round. Re: Cas: I think he's with the show til the show ends. Even though they haven't leverged Cas & Boys yet, I think they have plenty left to them.

Officially over the river and thru the woods at Grandma's house. Watching Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade because my inner 8 year old requires it. Happy Thanksgiving! I'm also thankful for PTV taking in we refugees from TWOP.

Currently entering hour 4 of the plane delay. Now they are trying to find out if they have to get a new crew. :)

I think the phone conversations with Cas/Sam count. And I don't think Crowley has been integral to Dean's story. If you are not watching, are you getting your impressions from recaps? While I agree the lack of Cas with Sam & Dean has been hard, I think Carver really wants to let Sam be the one to help Dean recover. I'm okay with that as last year was hard on their relationship. I'm hoping there's more Cas with brothers in the second half. Perhaps EP 9 ( with Claire) is meant to put a wrapper on Cas' solo journey.

I think the show does listen to criticism. I'm not always a fan of that as I think Cas is separated from the boys because of Destiel shipping. No matter what they choose here they cannot win. If he's with the boys and there is no plan in canon for anything but friends (a fairly clear position the show has taken) then they are accused of queer baiting. If they have him separate, they are accused of marginalizing the character. I wish they could tell the story as they would like in this regard.

I think the point of Cole's story was for the payoff of last night. Dean saved him from continuing down the Inigo Montoya path. And he risked his life to do so. Even as self-loathing as Dean is, he has to at least know he cleaned up a mess. It's even possible he can see his actions as saving Cole -- which would fit the "I just want to do something right" lament he had during "Paper Moon". The point of Hannah's story was (IMO) multi-faceted - It allowed for Cas to see the price he's paid - It allowed for Cas to have a mission of atonement by collecting rogue angels (thus preventing any angel, a supernatural being of immense power, who stayed on earth from doing their own thing -- for good OR evil). - It showed that the lesson that the Angels are FREELY choosing to serve humanity actually stuck with at least one Angel (Hannah). And this last is kind of important. If you look at God as a caring parent with a policy of no-intervention, then this entire horrible experience for the Angels ultimately should result in a stronger Heavenly Host. One who believes that protecting humans is their mission (vice throwing an Apocalypse because they never really understood what Dad was saying). With each Angel experiencing humanity, and MOST angels choosing to go back to Heaven with this knowledge, God has introduced (completely) Free Will to the Angels.

It's the Wednesday before Thanksgiving. I'm in DC. It's snowing now. I'm flying out at 5pm on the day before Thanksgiving. And returning on the Sunday (by flight) after Thanksgiving. Because, apparently, I WANT TO BE A STATISTIC. So when you see "largest number of travelers" or "horrific airport delays" etc... Think of me....

The rock/paper/scissors thing was my FAVORITE part of the AU-ishness of the episode.

Other topics to discuss*: - The empowerment of women: I thought it was actually VERY well done. First we have the classic damsel but then she pokes out the bad guy's eye with her heel! That got an audible "you go, girl!". Yes, he was a demon but she didn't know that. I think she went out fighting, not remotely weak. "Shaylene" killed her tormentor. The poor blonde in the tiger print got screwed by Rowena but she was still talking "I can't!" (stop what she was doing) while attacking Sam. The brunette stood up for herself (to a witch who had already shown herself to be very powerful). And Rowena? She's a rock star IMO. Killing the pimp in a somewhat slimey fashion was just desserts. Having no f*cks to give about what others thinks about her (the waiter, the Coven, Dean, Crowley). I see where Crowley gets his with and backbone. I think Berens used the juxtaposition of typically poorly treated women (scantily clad prostitutes) and showed they had real personality and real agency when given a chance. - The brothel: I liked how Crowley put it: "I'm evil. That's just tacky." So it's not that the most evil thing on the planet is a brothel. It's that he has a code (he's been very consistent about it) regarding how deals are made. This is beneath him -- these people know they are selling their soul but there's a deception going on because they are using forced prostitutes to conduct the sale. - Hannah: I think Hannah left because Caroline's pain was so strong that she realized she no longer had her consent. They made a point that recovering rogue angels was winding up. So she was returning to Heaven soon anyway. But the decision to leave her host meant that she was totally committed to not returning (whereas before she popped back and forth). If there are Angels still holding vessels, I hope she convinces them to let them go. - Hannah & Cas: I think the nude scene was not gratuitous and TOTALLY intentional by Hannah. She had feelings for Cas and she was seducing him (in her own way). Her 'what, you are bothered by little old me?' bit was her kind of calling out Cas for him saying "no relationship". I think she made it clear that part of her decision to return to a "multidimensional being of celestial intent" was her realizing that being around humans was causing her to act on human-like emotions. And the Caroline's emotions came thru and it just made her nauseous. The WRONGNESS of it all. She was starting to pursue a personal agenda with Cas while her vessel's life was shattered. - Cas: Oy, Cas. It is so freakin' hard to see him like this. Alone. There was a real moment of heat in that kiss with Hannah. He's his own person now. I'm 100% certain Jimmy is gone. But knowing how Jimmy was sacrificed for Cas, in view of Hannah's decision, really hit home for Cas this episode. I think Hannah's example put his own choices under a microscope and it made for a very ugly picture. He truly believes in protecting humans and his mission. But the sacrifice was an awful one. Note: Cas was dealing with the Apocalypse and not our enlightened Cas at the time he took on Jimmy permanently. That priority is much easier to understand than clean-up of rogue angels. Overall, I thought the entire episode had the themes of "consent and choice". Consent shown to matter (and that violation of it is wrong): - The women were forced into prostitution - Rowena using the blonde as a diversion - Caroline no longer wanted to be Hannah's vessel Choice - big ones were made: - Hannah to give up her mission - Cole to give up his revenge (that's HUGE BTW, given the premise of the show). - First the bad choice of the two prostitutes to become witches (seeking power) and then the positive choice of the brunette 'student' running away from Rowena - Dean putting his life in Cole's hands to get him to actually LISTEN. That was freakin' brave. And although Dean is typically suicidal on a good day, I don't think that was the case here. I didn't see Dean looking to die right then. He really wanted to clean up the mess he made. I was so happy the show gave him that opportunity to do a heroic thing and correct ONE thing. This is the kind of healing Dean needs and to have it be based on a choice he made was all kinds of awesome IMO. *Pardon for the back to back-ish large posting. I'm getting ready to travel and wanted to post now in case I don't get time later. The second rewatch was really valuable for me. It helped me overlook the choppiness and see some of the gems.

Nicely "damning with faint praise"! I don't get Singer. I think he's got it in him to do well. His list of episodes. I've highlighted ones that I thought showed exceptionally good direction from a dramatic perspective: And there's others on this list that worked very well too. But comparable to "Girls, Girls, Girls", I thought these were relevant. I remember "Road Trip" being particularly well done. OTOH, having directed 30 out of 202 Supernatural episodes, keeping it from getting workman-like is a real challenge. Robert Berens hinted at some editing done on this episode post filming. Maybe the script was a little ambitious and the editing lost some of the glue the episode needed. Don Koch was the editor (I personally LOVE Nicole Baer). Certainly the Cas/Boys storyline was only united by theme (consent and choice) and nothing to do with plot. That didn't help.

Correct. Since Cain is coming back in EP14, I'd be surprised if the "nature" of Dean is not discussed then.

From TPTB thread... As I said over there: I think Mystery Spot also did a HUGE number on Sam's head. Interestingly enough, Gabriel did that who schtick to try and get Sam OVER losing Dean. I think it backfired in an EPIC way. Now technically it was the Trickster at the time, but IMO, he came across as actually trying to do the boys a solid. Dean never remembered dying and getting shot by a bullet is a heckuva lot better than mauled by a Hell Hound. But IMO Sam came out of that traumatized. First he went the John path with simply obsessed (I personally think the scene where he's taking the Mystery Spot down to the studs with an ax while Dean calms the owner is hilarious). Then he turned RoboHunter when Dean died for 6 months. I think it's underestimated what those 6 months did to his psyche. He tapped into a pretty dark place during that time. There was no Ruby helping him and yet he still was able to skewer Bobby based on his BELIEF that it was really the Trickster. That's some pretty "out there" IMO behavior. You have to have a great deal of confidence in your own intellect (which, yes, is a weakness for Sam) but you also have to set aside any of your warm fuzzies. Then after Mystery Spot, we had the episode where he investigated Doc Benton and he was seriously considering the Frankenstein route rather than let Dean die. Again, without Ruby. That is some seriously whacked mindset. It was great that Dean set him straight but both Dean and Bobby (who I don't think knew the details of Mystery Spot), should have seen the red flares then*. Finally, he was willing to try whatever crap Ruby wanted him to do at the 11th hour. In sum, I think Sam's mental trauma over Dean's death was very well developed and well forecast. I think his success in Faith and Mystery Spot, combined with the guilt/sadness of Dean trading his soul for Sam's life, set him up for a big fall. *Not that Bobby could have done squat if Sam wasn't listening. Dean is really the only one who could ever divert Sam off a path he's committed to (at least in the up to that point). Having said all this - even with Sam open to manipulation by Ruby. Sam still made the choice that natural law didn't apply** to him and he let her lead him darkside. **I like Lisa's comment to Dean: she loves her sister but if she died she wouldn't try to resurrect her.

Thanks for the background 7kstar. I also think the director, David Nutter (who directs a great many pilots), had a big influence. It was mentioned several times in the DVD commentary how influential he was. Nutter directed the first two (both written by Kripke) and then Kim Manners directed the third (written by Gamble & Tucker). With the third being "Dead in the Water" there was a definite improvement IMO in terms of character depth. And I'm going to credit Kim Manners with a lot of that. Gamble/Tucker get credit for creating the Dean/Lucas scene in the first place, but Manners/Ackles gets credit IMO for making that scene sing. And Sam's reaction "who are you and what did you do with my brother" was really a nice way of highlighting that we were seeing into Dean's inner self. For me, it was "Dead in the Water" that sealed the deal for me on the series. The guy drowning in the sink still freaks me right the hell out. And the character moments were great. I think Mystery Spot also did a HUGE number on Sam's head.....taking the rest of my thoughts to the Sam thread....

And will there be apologies from these people? Improbable. I rewatch end and really liked Rowena. And the alley scene was excellent.

Ah Balthazar, what a wonderful Angel you were Mr I.P. Freely. Delightful rogue. I liked nerdy Fate and I liked how they slowly gave us clues about Castiel. The prop department gets all the awards from me for the 100+ little touches that made in the timeline. Seeing Ellen was bittersweet. Those boys (Sam, Dea, and Bobby) really needed her and it was like losing her again. In sum, some fun moments, some angst, so mythology. Supernatural by the numbers. + Live Free or TwiHard -- The Man a Who Knew Too Much -- My Heart Will Go on 30- Frontierland 29- Appointment in Samarra 28 - Weekend at Bobby's 27 - The Man Who Would Be King 26 - The French Mistake 21 - Mommy Dearest 18 - The Man Who Knew Too Much 15 - Live Free or Twihard 12 - Clap Your Hands If You Believe In flagrante with the King of Hell All Dogs Go to Heaven Unforgiven Mannequin 3: The Reckoning Like a Virgin Family Matters And Then There Were None Let it Bleed Caged Heat Exile on Main St. You Can't Handle the Truth Two and a Half Men The Third Man My Heart Will Go On

The Angels didn't mind wipe the deal because she recognized YED in the nursery.

Well. - we may be done with both Cole and Hannah. Good. - glad that Dean got to clean up the Cole mess. And he did a good job - the CW promo monkeys could not have been more misleading. Not that his was bad, but someone ought to smash them - I'm glad they are tackling Angel vessel consent. I like Hannah's choice. - Rowena was interesting. 'Mother' was telegraphed. I like where that could head And Dean, why do you bother lying to Sam? You were sincere. Just admit it. Finally, so she was a pro. I'm glad Dean helped her out.