Because I'm Eeeee-viiilllllll: The Villains Thread

[Spartan Girl]

6 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

"I...overreacted."

You really have to appreciate Carradine and Thurman here, because there's this long pause,  Beatrix waiting for more, but Bill's done, and he spells that out too.

"You overreacted? That's your explanation?"

"I didn't say I was going to explain. I said I was gonna tell you the truth."

And then later when she told him that even though she knew he was capable of those things, but never in a million years did she think he could do that her her, he bluntly tells her, “Sorry, Kiddo, but you were wrong.”

That was the final nail in the coffin for her. Because up until then you could her resolve had been wavering, seeing how much BB adored him; she already took Nikki’s mother away from her and clearly she didn’t want to hurt her daughter that way. Then again, the story of BB stepping on Emilio the goldfish was a clear red flag that her fears about the kind of person BB would become under Bill weren’t completely unfounded, so…

[Wiendish Fitch]

I recently re-watched Interview with the Vampire, and not only was I struck anew at how great Kirsten Dunst* was as Claudia, but the film is one of the better examples of having us sympathize with the villain. 

Lestat turned Claudia into a vampire when she was just a child (all as a ploy to get Louis to stick around) and she had no say in the matter, her mind matures, but she's eternally stuck in a kid's body, and, yes, she is a relentless killing machine, but she isn't doing anything that Lestat's not doing as well (and everyone loves that guy). At no point does the movie justify what any of the vampires do, it just presents it in a coldly pragmatic light. We quickly learn that immortality can be frustrating and lonely, and the worst part?

Spoiler

Vampires are only immortal to a point. When Claudia is punished for attempting murder to Lestat (she's forced to die by sunlight), it's actually pretty devastating, because for all her acts of violence, Claudia was made into this creature against her will, for shitty reasons, and now she has to pay for it while Lestat gets to live on.

No, Claudia isn't a wonderful person, but that doesn't make her story any less tragic. 

*If I'm being honest, I think she makes both Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt look like drips by comparison.

[Spartan Girl]

Christof from The Truman Show is an obvious choice for villain, but you know what? I think everyone else on the show from the cast and the crew needs to be included too! They controlled, manipulated, gaslighted, and emotionally traumatized Truman from the time he was a child. With the exception of Marlon/Louis, who at least showed a modicum of conscience (and in a deleted scene, he helped Truman get away), not one of those bastards gave a damn about Truman. Everyone from his “parents” to Meryl were all using Truman for fame, whether it was fifteen minutes or a lifetime’s worth. And that makes them just as much as a monster as Christof. Maybe even more.

[Spartan Girl]

Suzanne Strone from To Die For should definitely be on this thread. I know we gave Nicole Kidman a lot of crap for being the wrong choice to play Lucille Ball, but this movie proved that she can be funny, just in a subtler way.

Because we're in the era we live in, some people have come out with takes about Suzanne being a feminist antihero for wanting a career instead of kids and how Larry was a jerk for pressuring her otherwise. I think people with this opinion need to watch the movie again. The issue wasn't Suzanne simply wanting a career, the issue was she was a narcissistic sociopath bitch that didn't care who she hurt as long as she got her way.  Not to mention that for all her ambitions, Suzanne's greatness was all in her head: the professionals all agreed that she didn't really have what it took for the big time, whether she had kids or not.

Not to mention the little fact that she preyed and groomed a teenager!!!!!!!

And before you call Larry a sexist jerk, let me remind you up until then that he was more than happy to do whatever Suzanne wanted. Hell, the only reason she was with him to begin with was because of how easily she could wrap him around her little finger -- something Janice called out on from the very beginning. But marriage, as we all know, is a two-way street. And the second Larry actually started talking about what he wanted, she immediately started planning out his murder. Instead of, you know, getting a divorce like a normal person.

[Wiendish Fitch]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Suzanne Strone from To Die For should definitely be on this thread. I know we gave Nicole Kidman a lot of crap for being the wrong choice to play Lucille Ball, but this movie proved that she can be funny, just in a subtler way.

Because we're in the era we live in, some people have come out with takes about Suzanne being a feminist antihero for wanting a career instead of kids and how Larry was a jerk for pressuring her otherwise. I think people with this opinion need to watch the movie again. The issue wasn't Suzanne simply wanting a career, the issue was she was a narcissistic sociopath bitch that didn't care who she hurt as long as she got her way.  Not to mention that for all her ambitions, Suzanne's greatness was all in her head: the professionals all agreed that she didn't really have what it took for the big time, whether she had kids or not.

Not to mention the little fact that she preyed and groomed a teenager!!!!!!!

And before you call Larry a sexist jerk, let me remind you up until then that he was more than happy to do whatever Suzanne wanted. Hell, the only reason she was with him to begin with was because of how easily she could wrap him around her little finger -- something Janice called out on from the very beginning. But marriage, as we all know, is a two-way street. And the second Larry actually started talking about what he wanted, she immediately started planning out his murder. Instead of, you know, getting a divorce like a normal person.

Bingo. I think To Die For is Nicole Kidman's finest hour.

Whatever Larry's flaws, he did not deserve what he got. "Sick and twisted" almost feels like an inadequate description for Suzanne.

Echoing your thoughts on the "feminist antiheroes" take, while I try to respect others' opinions, I frankly get uneasy when that label gets thrown around too easily. Even if you want to argue that some villainous characters might be, that certainly doesn't mean all of them are! I have Leave Her to Heaven on Criterion blu ray, and I love that movie (for those who don't know, it's basically Fatal Attraction 42 years early). Gene Tierney is chilling and memorable as clingy sociopath Ellen, but in the essay enclosed with the Criterion disc, the author Megan Abbot makes a long, unsettling argument that comes dangerously close to justifying Ellen's actions. I don't know, maybe I'm just a wuss and a goody two-shoes, so y'all can read it here and judge for yourselves (WARNING: article contains spoilers).

Edited July 2 by Wiendish Fitch

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Echoing your thoughts on the "feminist antiheroes" take, while I try to respect others' opinions, I frankly get uneasy when that label gets thrown around too easily. Even if you want to argue that some villainous characters might be, that certainly doesn't mean all of them are! I have Leave Her to Heaven on Criterion blu ray, and I love that movie (for those who don't know, it's basically Fatal Attraction 42 years early). Gene Tierney is chilling and memorable as clingy sociopath Ellen, but in the essay enclosed with the Criterion disc, the author Megan Abbot makes a long, unsettling argument that comes dangerously close to justifying Ellen's actions. I don't know, maybe I'm just a wuss and a goody two-shoes, so y'all can read it here and judge for yourselves (WARNING: article contains spoilers).

*reads*

Yeah, no, that woman was pure evil. And don’t put it on being mentally ill, that’s an insult to all the mentally ill people that would never hurt a fly.

I also get uneasy when the “feminist antihero” label is thrown around. It gives the detractors more ammo to spew more bile about how it’s an excuse for women to do whatever they want and never be held accountable when they hurt people. Which, as we all know, is NOT. But good luck explaining that to those morons.

[kathyk2]

Snape and Vernon Dursley from the Harry Potter movies. They abuse Harry and don't get punished for their actions. I don't care how much they hated James Potter in Snape's case and magic in general you don't abuse an innocent boy. Snape also abuses Neville and nothing happens to him.

[BlueSkies]

Rutger Hauer in Nighthawks.  As a kid this scene totally petrified me

 

 

[BlueSkies]

Yeah Nicole Kidman’s beauty in To Die For added more to her sinister ways.  Easily my favorite film and performance of hers.  
 

 

It’s a movie that got multiple razzies but I would add Madonnas Rebecca Carlson in Body of Evidence to this list.  Totally biased in that Madonna was to me as sexy as sexy could get and beautiful in this role.  I’ve certainly dreamed of being her lawyer in this film!

 

That being said when she did whisper in her lawyers ear You Almost Convinced Me that did send shivers through me the first few times I watched it.  Probably because I fancied her so much.  

[Blergh]

Since My Bodyguard (1980) is about teen bullying, I want to say IMO it did a fairly good job with Melvin Moody (Matt Dillon), his posse and his own hired bodyguard Mike (Hank Salas). I mean these were bullies who reveled in their thuggishness  for profit and didn't try to pretend they were anything else (with  no attempts at excuses or backstories for them).  During one scene, the movie's protagonist Clifford (Chris Makepeace)  was hiding out and overheard Moody and one of his thugs converse in which Moody  bragged about how he wouldn't 'take no for an answer' from a girl on a date.  Of course, his fellow thug seemed to admire that.  Thankfully, the movie didn't try to make any of them likable or cool (though they were still interesting characters). It was  telling that all of them proved to be cowards who backed away when they believed they were outgunned,though.

[BlueSkies]

9 hours ago, Blergh said:

Since My Bodyguard (1980) is about teen bullying, I want to say IMO it did a fairly good job with Melvin Moody (Matt Dillon), his posse and his own hired bodyguard Mike (Hank Salas). I mean these were bullies who reveled in their thuggishness  for profit and didn't try to pretend they were anything else (with  no attempts at excuses or backstories for them).  During one scene, the movie's protagonist Clifford (Chris Makepeace)  was hiding out and overheard Moody and one of his thugs converse in which Moody  bragged about how he wouldn't 'take no for an answer' from a girl on a date.  Of course, his fellow thug seemed to admire that.  Thankfully, the movie didn't try to make any of them likable or cool (though they were still interesting characters). It was  telling that all of them proved to be cowards who backed away when they believed they were outgunned,though.

Since we love this film so much I’d say in a dream world my passion to pursuit would be to write a sequel to the film in the modern world.  Giving a Moody a back story and some kind of redemptive arch.  Similar to Cobra Kai 

 

Id go in with you on it 😅

[Blergh]

7 hours ago, BlueSkies said:

Since we love this film so much I’d say in a dream world my passion to pursuit would be to write a sequel to the film in the modern world.  Giving a Moody a back story and some kind of redemptive arch.  Similar to Cobra Kai 

 

Id go in with you on it 😅

Yeah, but if one were going to do this, one should be careful not to turn this into a total pity party for him. IOW, while a background story can help get one to understand a bully's MO, an explanation isn't necessarily a justification.

Moreover, Moody,etc. had said and done too many bullying acts to have the other characters let their guards down and trust him thereafter so any theoretical redemptive arch would be a VERY tough sell.

[BlueSkies]

7 hours ago, Blergh said:

Yeah, but if one were going to do this, one should be careful not to turn this into a total pity party for him. IOW, while a background story can help get one to understand a bully's MO, an explanation isn't necessarily a justification.

Moreover, Moody,etc. had said and done too many bullying acts to have the other characters let their guards down and trust him thereafter so any theoretical redemptive arch would be a VERY tough sell.

Yeah.  I had Cobra Kai in my head.  It’s something to see all Daniel’s enemies become his friends.  Even Chozen that wanted to kill him.  

[Blergh]

On 7/11/2024 at 6:26 AM, BlueSkies said:

Yeah.  I had Cobra Kai in my head.  It’s something to see all Daniel’s enemies become his friends.  Even Chozen that wanted to kill him.  

Question (since I've never seen anything past the original Karate Kid),

Spoiler

Did at any point any of Daniel's former nemeses ever confront Kreis  (over him exploiting and building on their worst insecurities as teens to use them to enact vendettas he alone had concocted? At the very least I hope they DID acknowledge that they'd been badly misused by him even if they didn't opt to openly call him out.

 

[DoctorAtomic]

That's kind of a theme in the Cobra Kai series.

[BlueSkies]

On 7/12/2024 at 1:10 PM, Blergh said:

Question (since I've never seen anything past the original Karate Kid),

  Hide contents

Did at any point any of Daniel's former nemeses ever confront Kreis  (over him exploiting and building on their worst insecurities as teens to use them to enact vendettas he alone had concocted? At the very least I hope they DID acknowledge that they'd been badly misused by him even if they didn't opt to openly call him out.

 

I realized I never answered you.

 

Since you didn't see past the original Karate Kid, I'll just leave it as yeah a string of events starts the rivalry between Daniel and Johnny again.  But the one thing they do have in common is hating Kreese.  

[Spartan Girl]

Pour one out for James Earl Jones, who gave us several great villains: Darth Vader and Tulsa Doom. 

Personally, I think his performance in Return of the Jedi saved Vader from being a crappy unearned redemption story. After sounding so intimidating in the last two movies, he let the armor down in his vulnerable delivery of “It is…too late for me, son.”

Edited September 9 by Spartan Girl

[andromeda331]

On 9/9/2024 at 4:50 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Pour one out for James Earl Jones, who gave us several great villains: Darth Vader and Tulsa Doom. 

Personally, I think his performance in Return of the Jedi saved Vader from being a crappy unearned redemption story. After sounding so intimidating in the last two movies, he let the armor down in his vulnerable delivery of “It is…too late for me, son.”

I agree. I loved Vader as a villain the first two movies. He was so awesome. I never thought I would be crying as he's dying after saving his son. That's all James Earl Jones. 

[Fool to cry]

Yeah that line in Return of the Jedi is my favorite too.

I think what went wrong with Anakin in the prequels was Lucas wanted to depict Vader when he was a young man and Vader in the movies had a very formal way of speaking. "The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner now I am the master." What he forgot was Vader had James Earl Jones' Shakespearean basso profundo voice. Having a 19 year old Canadian speak like that was awkward and unnatural. He also wanted to have Anakin to share similarities to his son so he gave him Luke's traits when he was the same age like immaturity, whininess and his impatience. What he neglected though was giving him Luke's more positive qualities like his idealism, earnestness and humility. Instead he was arrogant and aggresive. So we were left with was a character hard for viewers to like or relate to. That made it difficult to care about the tragedy of his fall. 

What fixed the character IMO was the Clone Wars 3D animated series. Dave Filoni and the writers treated Anakin and Vader as two different personas which was the right choice. Anakin is brash and cocky but good natured and spoke in a more natural way with colloquial dialogue. He was less ticking time bomb and more impulsive kid brother to Obi-wan and playful big brother to Ashoka.  It makes those rare moments of Vader like darkness that come out from him more scary and startling. 

Edited Friday at 04:25 PM by Fool to cry

[andromeda331]

6 hours ago, Fool to cry said:

Yeah that line in Return of the Jedi is my favorite too.

I think what went wrong with Anakin in the prequels was Lucas wanted to depict Vader when he was a young man and Vader in the movies had a very formal way of speaking. "The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner now I am the master." What he forgot was Vader had James Earl Jones' Shakespearean basso profundo voice. Having a 19 year old Canadian speak like that was awkward and unnatural. He also wanted to have Anakin to share similarities to his son so he gave him Luke's traits when he was the same age like immaturity, whininess and his impatience. What he neglected though was giving him Luke's more positive qualities like his idealism, earnestness and humility. Instead he was arrogant and aggresive. So we were left with was a character hard for viewers to like or relate to. That made it difficult to care about the tragedy of his fall. 

What fixed the character IMO was the Clone Wars 3D animated series. Dave Filoni and the writers treated Anakin and Vader as two different personas which I think was the right choice. Anakin is brash and cocky but good natured and spoke in a more natural way with colloquial dialogue. He was less ticking time bomb and more impulsive kid brother to Obi-wan and playful big brother to Ashoka.  It makes those rare moments of Vader like darkness that come out from him more scary and startling. 

Yeah the Clone Wars fixed his character so much. We saw the friendship that Obi Wan talked to Luke about. They really were good friends. Hints of what was to come. His anger with the council makes more sense when you watch what they did to Ahsoka. They did such a good job.

[DoctorAtomic]

Also by the time Anakin offs Dooku, they actually fought a ton of times and he could never beat him. 

[Spartan Girl]

If i may switch over to Conan’s Thulsa Doom, that was proof JEJ could be scary even without the voice. The cold way he dispatches Conan’s mom in the beginning, and how he just shrugs it off years later with “That must’ve been when I was younger.” Not to mention how he just makes one off his followers jump to her death just to show Conan his power over them…

 

[Palimelon]

 

[Wiendish Fitch]

James Earl Jones is a delight in Conan, striking just the right balance between campy and intimidating. Even in the goofy scene where he transforms into a snake, Jones manages to keep his dignity.

 Conan the Barbarian is a fun movie overall (avoid the sequel at all costs).

[Palimelon]

The sequel does have the fabulous Grace Jones though, so points for that.

[Spartan Girl]

I love how the final confrontation had shades of “I’m your father” in the most figurative sense. There’s a moment when Conan looks as though he’s afraid Doom might have been right: that he gave him the will to live even after he lost so much, and now that he’s finally gotten revenge, he’ll be just a shell. That last image of Broody Old Conan on his throne…not exactly a happily ever, folks,

Also love how the second Doom is dead, his followers all drop their torches and just leave. If only real life was that simple…

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Kromm's Brigade, obviously.

[Anduin]

16 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Kromm's Brigade, obviously.

 

While it's great, I have to nitpick. Conan worshipped Crom. Thulsa Doom and his cult worshipped Set!

[Ohiopirate02]

On 9/14/2024 at 10:13 AM, Palimelon said:

The sequel does have the fabulous Grace Jones though, so points for that.

And Wilt "I slept with 20,000 women" Chamberlain as the man who must guard the virgin princess. 

[Palimelon]

Quote

Thulsa Doom and his cult worshipped Set!

Are you sure? I mean, just because they had snake themed shoulder pads, and snake themed sword handles, and helmets, and snake themed banner staffs...er, wait, where was I?