Paige: The Private Investigator

[SlovakPrincess]

I've found Paige so puzzling lately that I had to go back and watch a little of her initial reactions to being told the truth.

Maybe I've been unfair to the character.  Maybe she's puzzling now because Elizabeth just completely broke her in this scene:

 

Looking back, this situation is insanely unfair to Paige.  P and E shouldn't have told her something she was way too young to handle, no matter how much she pestered them to explain the weirdness and tension in their home.  Yelling at her that the fate of the entire family now rests on her shoulders and that she must now devote all her non-school hours to staying on Pastor Tim's good side ... wow, that would fuck up anyone.    So .... maybe Paige can't be expected to relate to anyone anymore in a normal fashion.

[Umbelina]

Good point.

Mom and dad didn't exactly have a choice, unless they decided to run though, which I still think was a better option.

They were ordered to do it.

[SlovakPrincess]

Which again makes me question the Centre's judgment.  When they gave these orders, did they really not think teens might act out in unpredictable ways when the "grooming to be a spy" process began?  

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Which again makes me question the Centre's judgment.  When they gave these orders, did they really not think teens might act out in unpredictable ways when the "grooming to be a spy" process began?  

Their plan was really dumb--and this was after they'd gotten an entire family killed not understanding how teenagers react to things. Unfortunately with Paige it seems like it went just the way they'd hoped. However hopeless she felt at first, she's now gotten pretty smug about being a Soviet spy. I guess that makes it all the more surprising that they aren't tapping Henry, given how relatively easy it was (Pastor Tim not withstanding). 

[Novel8]

She seem very interested in wanting to know if Sex is part of the game. She is a teenager, I think, so you know about teenagers,,,their hormones are 'active'.  On another note, does anyone know how many episodes are left?  I have been watching this show since the first day, and because of the long, waiting period, between seasons, I don't recall who was that guy, that Stan was talking to on that bench at the beginning?

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Novel8 said:

n another note, does anyone know how many episodes are left?  I have been watching this show since the first day, and because of the long, waiting period, between seasons, I don't recall who was that guy, that Stan was talking to on that bench at the beginning?

There's 10 eps this season and we've seen 2. So 8 left.

The guy Stan was talking to was Gennady, who's a hockey player and a courier. He and Aderholdt started working with him and his wife last season so that's 3 years ago.

[Umbelina]

So, about Paige having some cushy well placed job somewhere, someday.

The idea that she wouldn't need and use all of the spy skills Elizabeth has used, to me?  Is ridiculous.

While I agree that at this stage of her training, grooming for the future, the KGB, including Claudia and Liz, should be more concerned about Paige making contacts, getting skills that would make her valuable so she could be placed in the "right" job for the KGB.  Basically Paige should be doing what Henry is already doing.

Along with that though?

She DOES have to know every spy trick in the book, because there are so many reasons and possibilities of her needing all of them.  Yes, including sex, and while most embedded spies didn't actually kill people or do breaking and entering (the Russian Embassy took care of crap like that, not valuable agents posing as Americans with covers.)  Still, Paige might need to do those things as well.

WHY?

There are so many ways!

Paige gets a low level job at the White House, or FBI, or for a key Senator, or Military, whatever, it doesn't really matter.  She will meet people who have FAR more access to information than she does, specifically information that the KGB or GRU needs at that moment.

So yes, every single skill could be needed, including sex.  She will meet contacts, powerful contacts, and she will have to spy, and protect her cover, and be observant, and probably know how to break into an office safe, or set up a listening device, or have a relationship, including sex, with someone key to an operation.  People talk to their lovers, or at the very least, might not be quite as careful with secrets or documents with someone they "love."

Spies use anything and everything, and Paige would need to as well.  I can think of hundreds of examples, and no, it wouldn't ruin Paige's reputation to have sex with someone.  She's not going to be doing all of this in the 1950's, it will be 1990's by the time she's fully up and running. 

Assuming she would ever be good at being a spy is the stumbling point, because so far?  She sucks.

[JFParnell]

Just wanted to stop in to publicly declare that I am a doofus. Because of bookmarks and such, I'm embarrassed to say I did not even realize there was a "Paige thread" or other specific threads to scroll down to and explore beyond the per-episode threads! Who knew??!! (I know; many of you did! lol) Anyway, hi, Paige thread!

[EtheltoTillie]

Umbelina, I'm joining you in this thread, and I agree with what you've posted.  I just wanted to reiterate what others have said:  Paige is the worst spy we've ever seen.  We've heard that Phillip was plucked from the proletariat because he stood out for his intelligence (the uncle told the son that).  Elizabeth, we didn't get exactly the same info, but she clearly is intelligent and quick thinking . They have to be very quick thinking to pull off the undercover disguises.  It's all improv acting.  Paige can't even master Surveillance 101 after six semesters.  Training for anything, whether it's being a doctor or an actor or a musician or a spy, takes endless, continuous practice.  She should be better now at second-naturing her reactions in the basics. Maybe she's not putting enough time in.  Phillip and Elizabeth trained nonstop in their Soviet camp.  Like those old Soviet Olympic athletes who were sent away to train.

Also, if she is meant to gain a position in the US government, she should be learning foreign languages and studying subjects of interest to the government and doing well at those subjects.  Such students get recruited at the college level by the government.  (Russian language students used to get approached at the time in question, for example.)  They don't seem to be positioning her for that.

I think her bumbling will cause some trouble for the Jenningses. 

That's all I've got!

19 minutes ago, JFParnell said:

Just wanted to stop in to publicly declare that I am a doofus. Because of bookmarks and such, I'm embarrassed to say I did not even realize there was a "Paige thread" or other specific threads to scroll down to and explore beyond the per-episode threads! Who knew??!! (I know; many of you did! lol) Anyway, hi, Paige thread!

Welcome--don't feel silly!

Edited April 5, 2018 by GussieK

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, GussieK said:

Also, if she is meant to gain a position in the US government, she should be learning foreign languages and studying subjects of interest to the government and doing well at those subjects.  Such students get recruited at the college level by the government.  (Russian language students used to get approached at the time in question, for example.)  They don't seem to be positioning her for that.

 

Yeah, that's the thing. Their stated plan makes absolute sense and actually shouldn't require disguises or honeytrapping. They would undermine it. You make her secretary of state and she's working secretly for Russia. Or whatever. You don't have the Secretary of State scrounging around for info through sex or breaking into offices at night. She's William. 

But we really haven't seen them putting any effort into what would essentially be her cover at all. And her cover is the important thing in that scenario. Of course as a spy she should still have all the basics of spycraft in case she gets into trouble. But if you're trying to create a Manchurian Candidate-type situation, the real key is the cover. You decide what you want her for, maybe think of a few options and decide what she's best at, and then you work just as hard if not harder at getting her into that because it's actually not easy. 

You can't just vaguely say she'll get a job at the state department or the CIA as if you just apply for it--unless you're maybe not being too picky about which job she has. In which case yeah, she'll probably get encouraged sleep with the actually important people for info. Now she's Elizabeth needing skills in getting men to blab to her in bed. Exactly the kind of life Elizabeth doesn't want for her, but for which she appears to be training her. 

She'd probably need a real passion for her studies in that case, like it seems like Philip and Henry had. And Elizabeth also probably had once she was in KGB school at least. (Presumably before then she was still an excellent student but from what others have said to her it seems like what really made her stand out was her need to prove herself loyal to the cause etc.) 

At the same time, I admit Paige would come across to me as a very different character if she'd suddenly transformed herself into this type of person because it's just never been who she is. I don't know if I'd buy her. It would make her Henry. I buy her reporting stuff her teacher says to Claudia. She's always been a diligent student, it seems. But she's just always been more of a reflected wisdom type her whole time on the show when it comes to this sort of thing. Maybe because it's never been knowledge for knowledge's sake that's driven her.

It also isn't really the type of thing Elizabeth and Claudia are about--I mean, plotting this kind of career. I really hope it's meant to be somewhat of a blindspot for them too, a blindspot about the way the US works or something. And of course they probably can't have her being a whiz at languages without having Elizabeth, Claudia and Paige doing a lot of their scenes in Russian because the show really does tend to follow the rule that if characters would speak Russian, they should be speaking Russian. If Paige was pushing herself to become fluent of course she'd use Claudia and Elizabeth as practice. But they seem to be just showing Paige as a completely generic college student who's maybe taking a class with some specific professor that Elizabeth and Claudia do or don't like rather than a super driven student. 

[SusanSunflower]

It's very possible to apply for a job in the State Department or even to work for the CIA (although they vigorously approach people they are interested in so it might not be necessary)m the key (since apparently there are lots of applicants) is to have an impeccable resume, languages, and sponsors/references.  Both services are eager for the best and the brightest (and I'd guess many applicants are simply pipe-dreaming, like wanting to join the Green Berets or Special Forces -- I suspect the after-acceptance, elimination round is brutal, because they are going to invest so much in your "special skilz" (like the Special Forces) and want eliminate poseurs interested in the ego-trip from those actually capable of doing the work. 

Academia is often "infiltrated" by government intelligence, both for intelligence gathering from experts (and their contacts) and the contacts with the broader ex-pat community.  (Think Cuban ex-pats or Iraqi ex-pat ... they are eager to do favors to get favors or help). Someone like Juan Cole (middle east) or Stephen Cohen (Russia) have extensive contacts, at least some of whom might (might) willingly inform on their contacts and milieu (remember the Wikileaks diplomatic cables?) either here in the USA ex-pat community or relaying information from on-the-ground in another country. After 09/11, it turned out that the State Department has multiple vacant positions throughout the middle east and a critical scarciity of Arabic speakers/translators -- the reason was that no one wanted to be posted to Muslim countries and there was general fear (because of the shortage) you'd never be able to transfer somewhere else ... ever.  I was shocked because it was a "national security" weak spot ... translation of surveillance audio was backlogged terribly, and all those empty offices in countries whose oil reserves were critical to our economy. Anyway, I suspect that someone willing to specialize in areas where there was an obvious need could rise quickly to a useful position -- even if one with no alcohol or bikinis. 

Embedding in the CIA or FBI would mean the usual ruthlessly competitive meritocracy in a fairly large field of very very ambitious co-workers. 

I don't see Paige as having even an ember in her belly much less a "fire" ... 

Edited April 5, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Umbelina]

I think the whole CIA or FBI thing is a pipe dream anyway.  Yes, Paige is born here.  However, if she went into anything Top Secret, or as an agent?  I can't believe they wouldn't investigate the hell out of her family.   They would also be interviewing friends, (Oh wait!  Paige has none!) and teachers, since she has no coworkers, probably the Pastor was her "best friend" so they would probably check him out and interview him as well.

Checking birth records should be SOP for the FBI by now, and computers are very quickly becoming loaded with records by the time Paige would join.  No more walking in graveyards, a few clicks and the information is right there.

As a secretary in a low level FBI/CIA job?  What access would she really have without bugging offices, using sex and love, or doing B&E? 

She'd have less scrutiny working in the White House or for a key Senator, but still, normal spy skills as well as ruthlessness, focus, and awareness would still be needed.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Umbelina

[SusanSunflower]

actually I agree -- one generation American is probably not enough data points to pass muster ... grandparents matter and as we see on various genealogy programs, for many many people the records simply do exist (and with computers -- but even fiche/microfilm before that -- are more and more accessible). 

Law Enforcement or Civil Service jobs work better because so much time and effort is invested before low level clearance is required.  The background check is to rule out criminal records, parents' citizenship isn't a big deal and they are entry level jobs for all sorts of first generation Americans (many not requiring 4-year college degrees).  So an FBI applicant likely has invested 5-7 years (particularly if doing night school) in getting qualified to apply.   Paranoia about "infiltration" in many areas is probably low as a result.  The mafia wanting insider information would be more of a concern (because the FBI does domestic work, while CIA is not allowed to).  (I have no idea how deep P&E's cover background goes or if it could be altered to allow more no information "blanks"

This is the 1980's both in technology available and pre-09/11 levels of paranoia  -- ETA:  Paige is not join-the-army material, imho.  Journalism or Academia would seem the most "open" but would require a lot of social skills and self-starting.  Depending on what's already in there, "lost in the post-war diaspora" was a major reason for convenient holes that allowed in the otherwise forbidden (those Nazi still being discovered in suburban American rest homes)  and could explain blanks in Paige's pedigree. 

Edited April 5, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I think the whole CIA or FBI thing is a pipe dream anyway.  Yes, Paige is born here.  However, if she went into anything Top Secret, or as an agent?  I can't believe they wouldn't investigate the hell out of her family.   They would also be interviewing friends, (Oh wait!  Paige has none!) and teachers, since she has no coworkers, probably the Pastor was her "best friend" so they would probably check him out and interview him as well.

I really don't think that would be a problem. Her parents are long-time business owners who lived in the same neighborhood for years. The fact that Paige was more interested in her church group that having friends wouldn't really be a problem. People have said on the group that their parents weren't looked into that closely on security checks.

So I don't think any of that would keep Paige from having an important job, but the problem is it doesn't ensure Paige would have any seriously important position. It just seems like now this has become a really serious part of the story, that Elizabeth is genuinely delusional about what's going on. She, according to Keri Russell, imagines Paige as possible president material. Like she'll have a big important job somewhere. But really the KGB just sees her as another red shirt. A nobody who'll run whatever errands they need and never have a life of her own. They don't care what Paige's personal skill sets are--I guess in a way she has none in her eyes. Jared seemed to have engineering skills so they probably would have steered him that way. Paige doesn't have anything like that. Her skill is her willingness to do whatever they say without asking questions. Elizabeth is preparing her to be cannon fodder, pure and simple. And probably shot the second she messes up if keeping Elizabeth happy isn't a factor.

This whole thing just got way sadder and more sick. Yet it doesn't really seem like the show's playing it that way. They still seem to sort of act like it's just cool by default that she's being a spy. I mean, what a cruel joke to be sucking this girl in with reassurances about how spies don't have sex like that and having her watch movies and listen to music and eat Russian food as if she's actually connected to the country there and anyone cares about her. It's just one more way Paige is being easily duped and her mother is helping her. Helping her and right now seemingly thinking she'll just duck out before the sad conclusion.

Meanwhile, Henry's mostly surrounded himself with people who want him to reach his potential. They'll probably be happy to help him get a job in the future too. Henry might wind up being the most valuable thing Paige has to offer the KGB as an adult because it's the only tie to a person of power she has on her own. (Unless Philip was there to interfere.)

[Umbelina]

@sistermagpie

I agree with almost everything you wrote there.

BUT, I've been questioned by those guys about someone whom I barely knew, but worked with.  To say they are thorough is an understatement.  Pages of pages of work, and they also knew just about everything about me, so obviously I was also checked out before they approached me.

They knew the ship my brother was stationed on, my studying Russian, they wondered why I didn't make the high school trip to (then) Leningrad and Moscow that the rest of my Russian class, and the one above us took.  (no money)  They knew my college professors names, and even that one had been a former nun!  They asked why I signed the Moratorium against the Vietnam War, a decade before.  They wondered why I had never married, but had been involved in long relationships, they asked if I was close to my sister's daughters (which they already obviously knew since I flew back home 4-5 times a year to spend time with them) I think that was one of several questions just questioning whether I was being truthful with them.

The idea that they wouldn't seriously vet Paige's family were she to apply for any job in the CIA or FBI is ludicrous.  IMO of course.

Also, 1985 was "the year of the spy" so everyone was on guard, and even though they didn't arrest some of them for a few more years?  In many cases, they were already following them, they knew, they just delayed the arrests for more information, and also to use them to pass false information.

REAL spies suspect everyone, including the other spies they work with. 

I do think they would talk to the Pastor and his wife though, since they are the only real non-family contacts Paige has.  That would blow up nicely I think.  Probably they would talk to Paige's high school teachers as well, and any college profs that had smaller classes and might be able to at least pick her out of a line up.

We won't get there in only 8 more episodes though.  Or who knows?  Maybe we will have a flash forward and will?

Edited April 6, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

41 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

BUT, I've been questioned by those guys about someone whom I barely knew, but worked with.  To say they are thorough is an understatement.  Pages of pages of work, and they also knew just about everything about me, so obviously I was also checked out before they approached me.

Oh, I believe it would be thorough. I'm just not sure her parents would be the dealbreaker in what they investigated. Pastor Tim, actually, would totally be a weak link. If they came to him and said Paige was trying to get a position like that? I think his wife would absolutely make sure he threw as much suspicion on her as possible. He seems like the biggest danger there to me.

As he should be. No matter how much he wanted to protect her as a kid, he should feel guilty at all about assuming she's spying.

[SusanSunflower]

I suspect Philip's draft record would be an alarm bell.  According to Wiki, he and Elizabeth moved to Viginia in 1965 and Paige was born in 1967.   Lack of European grandparents' documentation could just maybe be WWII  aftermath, but for Philip (whose age then is uncertain to me),  before Vietnam, there was Korea.

It's not that he would have had to serve, but he would have had to register (and there should be a record, and I'd bet there's none) 

Edited April 6, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Oh, I believe it would be thorough. I'm just not sure her parents would be the dealbreaker in what they investigated. Pastor Tim, actually, would totally be a weak link. If they came to him and said Paige was trying to get a position like that? I think his wife would absolutely make sure he threw as much suspicion on her as possible. He seems like the biggest danger there to me.

As he should be. No matter how much he wanted to protect her as a kid, he should feel guilty at all about assuming she's spying.

They'd be a deal breaker in a heartbeat if the FBI started going to their "hometowns" and "schools" and certainly if they used what they already know, and double checked birth certificates.

Probably the KGB would finally do away with Pastor Tim and wifey, should Paige honestly ever be considered for the FBI or CIA.

Oh, I just realized, those questions I went through and the pages of questions I had to answer about my coworker?

1981 is my time guess.

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

They'd be a deal breaker in a heartbeat if the FBI started going to their "hometowns" and "schools" and certainly if they used what they already know, and double checked birth certificates.

Oh sure. Her parents' backgrounds aren't going to stand up to scrutiny. Only Paige's will. But it seems like if it was just a known thing that that would be looked at then Paige would have to stay away from those jobs too just automatically.

[Umbelina]

I agree.  The KGB would certainly know.

Isn't it mostly viewers who are mentioning the KGB and FBI thing?  Have they ever mentioned it on the show?

[SusanSunflower]

Paige's born in the USA birth certificate is not some magic key to entry ... her parent's origin story as (real) immigrants or as fictitious natural born Americans will matter ... Grandpa's service record (if he is alleged to have been alive and living in the USA during the World Wars) will be checked ... and his status simply checked against existing records.  (see also often places of residence/property owned and birth registrations) 

[Umbelina]

I wonder if any of their fictional parents, aunts, uncles, or grandparents are still alive?

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

Paige's born in the USA birth certificate is not some magic key to entry ... her parent's origin story as (real) immigrants or as fictitious natural born Americans will matter ... Grandpa's service record (if he is alleged to have been alive and living in the USA during the World Wars) will be checked ... and his status simply checked against existing records.  (see also often places of residence/property owned and birth registrations) 

If the grandparents of the real P&E are dead they might serve for that. But yeah, if they talk to any relatives that are still alive they might very quickly learn that these people are liars.

There's also the fact that by the time Paige is even looking for jobs the USSR will be gone. And Elizabeth would very believably not consider spying for Russia the same thing.

Edited April 6, 2018 by sistermagpie

[SusanSunflower]

Partly there weren't many large accessible, reasonable complete data bases going back 30-50 years in 1986 ... veterans (after the war(s)) applied for benefits or their family received death benefits and these records were "strong" and readily available.  Criminal  records (similarly) existed, were available and reasonably complete and accurate.  (see also marriage and baptism/birth certificate records (for those who were born in hospitals or whose parents registered their birth -- when the location of these events were specified).  Also real estate transactions and bank loans. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[crgirl412]

I think that they could've had Paige to some of the things her mother is teaching but I would have loved to see her at GWU taking Russian language and history, political science, and whatever else you take to eventually work in the US gov't.  They could've had her building relationships for future use with sons and daughters of members of Congress and those types, maybe a professor from Russia or Eastern Bloc.  We have seen all the other stuff watching her parents but to see how second-generation spy get trained in the world of academia and politics would be very interesting.  She could still put in dangerous and compromising situations but a different kind.    

Edited April 9, 2018 by crgirl412

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, crgirl412 said:

I think that they could've had Paige to some of the things her mother is teaching but I would have loved to see her GWU taking Russian language and history, political science, and whatever else you take to eventually work in the US gov't.  They could've had her building relationships for future use with sons and daughters of members of Congress and those type, maybe a professor from Russia or Eastern Bloc.  We have seen all the other stuff watching her parents but to see how second-generation spy get trained in the world of academia and politics would be very interesting.  She could still put in dangerous and compromising situations but a different kind.    

But really, doing it this way is keeping Paige consistent. It would have been a major change in her character to have her centered around being some serious academic and language hard and chatting up the sons and daughters of Congress etc. They've built Henry from the beginning as being exactly that kid--he gets interested in subjects and is social and has an instinct for making those kinds of connections. Him deciding to master Russian, for instance, would fit the pattern we've seen with him from the beginning. Just as Paige's approach to spying is like her approach to the church.

Paige has always been more interested in exactly what she's focused on now. This is basically about her relationship with her mother and it's still the priority for her. 

[crgirl412]

6 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But really, doing it this way is keeping Paige consistent. It would have been a major change in her character to have her centered around being some serious academic and language hard and chatting up the sons and daughters of Congress etc. They've built Henry from the beginning as being exactly that kid--he gets interested in subjects and is social and has an instinct for making those kinds of connections. Him deciding to master Russian, for instance, would fit the pattern we've seen with him from the beginning. Just as Paige's approach to spying is like her approach to the church.

Paige has always been more interested in exactly what she's focused on now. This is basically about her relationship with her mother and it's still the priority for her. 

That's why it is so boring to me!  Elizabeth honeypots so Paige will honeypot.... I don't think it would be that odd to develop an interest in academia/politics and major in those things at GWU- especially living in the DC Metro area.  We've see her being socially and emotionally delayed for years (for an American teen in the 80's) but a lot can happen in those 3 years at that juncture of life.  I think that she and Elizabeth could still be very influential as she could could also develop an interest in these type of subjects and they could bond over them.  Philip would probably have to be still spying for all of that to happen.     

[SusanSunflower]

Quote

 This is basically about her relationship with her mother and it's still the priority for her. 

and nobody really expected such a mundane story line and few are finding this aspect of the story very interesting ... nor is the mother/daughter evolution being shown (or even "told") effectively.   Paige and E. have now been in this mother/daughter apprenticeship dynamic for 6 years and Paige seems largely frozen in time and still extremely dependent on "Mom" ... on practical procedural instruction and emotionally ... 

I don't see that the writers are emphasizing this relationship because if they were we would have been shown more and have more reason to care. (They could make this a compelling story threat, but it really isn't.  On the face of it, E. is failing Paige and Paige is simply failing.  Since I never developed a reason to care much about Paige, and E. is such a chilly character, this is less interesting than it might be assumed to be ... given multiple seasons of Paige) 

Edited April 9, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, crgirl412 said:

That's why it is so boring to me!  Elizabeth honeypots so Paige will honeypot.... I don't think it would be that odd to develop an interest in academia/politics and major in those things at GWU- especially living in the DC Metro area. 

Well, she has done that sort of. Only in the usual Paige way. he parroted all the information about weapons that she'd gotten from her teacher to Claudia--that was information that she herself wouldn't have been interested in before that but she does it for Claudia's approval. And she said she started reading a book about the KGB. But she focuses on it in a single-minded way, asking if she's going to use sex (and therefore--does Elizabeth use sex)? 

5 minutes ago, crgirl412 said:

I think that she and Elizabeth could still be very influential as she could could also develop an interest in these type of subjects and they could bond over them. 

But Elizabeth doesn't have these interests. She filters everything she knows and thinks about the world through what she was taught to think when she was Paige's age. Paige is doing the same thing. Elizabeth even basically kept the same relationship with her mother that she had when she was a kid.

4 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

I don't see that the writers are emphasizing this relationship because if they were we would have been shown more and have more reason to care. 

I think they're trying to, though. In interviews they talk about how they're "bonding" in ways we haven't seen before. To me it seems like the same as always, but it also pretty much seems the main point of all these scenes with Paige. Paige asking Elizabeth about sex, Paige feeling bad about her mistake to Elizabeth and Elizabeth reassuring her, Paige telling her mom she thinks she's determined etc. Now presumably we'll see Elizabeth dealing with Paige seeing a death, Elizabeth being conflicted about Paige trying to mix sex with spying because her mother did actually give her a hint that they go together. It's basically the flipside of Elizabeth going to the church group meetings with Paige, only Paige is willingly trying to adopt the mindset in ways Elizabeth wasn't.

[Umbelina]

Edited April 13, 2018 by Umbelina

[SusanSunflower]

I managed another 10 minutes of this "interview" .... the degree that Paige is Holly (and little else or more) is disturbing for a professional actress now 6 years into the role... 

I came over here because folks were talking about Paige as an age-appropriate "girl power" or normal adolescent character arc of feeling her oats ... challenging her dad as teenage boys often challenge their dad (and sometimes their mothers*) to be smacked down, have the wind momentarily removed from their sales so they can "get over themselves"...  pretty mundane stuff, I'm sure the Waltons and Little House nailed it. 

I suspect that Phillip was "this close" to hurting Paige the same way a frightened and infuriated parent reacts to a toddler running into traffic.  Often a too vigorous slap on the behind and too loud cussing out, that merely confuses the child (teaching them nothing).  Paige isn't a toddler, she's deliberately refusing to take advice,  even follow instructions and rejecting her dad (who is all too aware he is not her mother and has fallen into the category of "not like us") 

(God I hope Kimmie is not followed to Bulgaria (or wherever) as another headstrong young-adult.  I hope her father rings the alarm the moment he cannot reach her in Greece or on reports her "new friends" seem to be having undue influence.,   Jim's longterm existence and recent visit to Kimmy at school should quickly elevate the matter to red alert)

eta:  after thinking about the "minimalism" of Binoche versus the more expressive acting of Deneuve, six years of carrying the family secrets should "show" in Paige's carriage and demeanor, like her real "loss" of faith with the Tims' departure (be it ever so shallow -- she once believed and then she was disillusioned, even if not necessarily with God).  Do the Jennings still get the "good works" newsletter and fundraising solicitations emanating from their relationship?  Paige had no idea -- back then -- how close she came to getting both Tims killed, now? 

Edited April 28, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

39 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

(God I hope Kimmie is not followed to Bulgaria (or wherever) as another headstrong young-adult.  I hope her father rings the alarm the moment he cannot reach her in Greece or on reports her "new friends" seem to be having undue influence.,   Jim's longterm existence and recent visit to Kimmy at school should quickly elevate the matter to red alert)

No idea where the show is going with this but my instinct was that the story was finished with the phone call, that Kimmy would do exactly what Jim told her to do: go to Greece as planned, come home as planned. I think if they did send somebody else to try to get her to go to Bulgaria like Jim was supposed to do she would listen to Jim's advice because obviously he gave it for a reason.

It seemed to me that Kimmy had really grown up exactly how Paige hasn't. When Jim was telling her she didn't need him anymore, he was telling the truth. She didn't need him anymore. She wasn't a kid looking to sleep with an older man. She wasn't proving herself with him. She didn't even smoke weed anymore. She grew out of it. She didn't need him--but she still genuinely liked him because why wouldn't she? He'd been a good friend to her, like an uncle. Like Henry, she was now able to even give him opinions on what he was doing. As much as I certainly never wanted them to have sex, it did sort of symbolize that she was no an adult and that their relationship was more equal. So I would trust that Kimmy was mature enough to not go to Bulgaria just to rebel against Jim or be mad at him.

Paige's mother never wanted her to be independent. She wanted her to be exactly like her. For all Paige's alleged friends and her fabulous sex life, it all comes back to her parents. She still can't even understand what her parents are telling her and instead turns every bit of obvious advice, even when given with respect as an equal, into some attempt to control her. Still runs pretty much everything in her life past mom for her approval (and when she doesn't get it she gets angry). Elizabeth wanted to replace Pastor Tim in Paige's life and she did.

So it's almost like with Kimmy Philip is protective, but he's setting her free to be an adult who isn't another Martha. With Paige he winds up having to be a father effortlessly subduing her because Paige was incapable of having the actual adult conversation he was trying to have with her. The one where he said look, I know what you're feeling because I have experienced it. I know the rush that comes with beating down someone who scared you. Let's talk about that. Instead Paige just denied it and claimed she *wasn't* like that. So he had to go to plan b, which was to just show her she wasn't invincible rather than talking through the psychological problems. Throughout the show there are so many times when Philip tries to have an honest conversation with her and it just makes her uncomfortable or disappoints her. She's far more comfortable drinking in mom's approval or yelling at her.

[SusanSunflower]

The suggestion making the rounds was that -- even without Philip -- Elizabeth would proceed with the kidnapping plan (to disrupt the summit) ...  I think the kidnapping plan is stupid (it will not affect Gorachev's ultimate decision making) at best just disrupt any decision making.... 

Edited April 28, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[AllyB]

On 3/25/2018 at 7:18 PM, sistermagpie said:

Most of the Americans who have worked for the USSR in the story have been decidedly not cool.

Gregory was coolness personified!

[sistermagpie]

29 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

The suggestion making the rounds was that -- even without Philip -- Elizabeth would proceed with the kidnapping plan (to disrupt the summit) ...  I think the kidnapping plan is stupid (it will not affect Gorachev's ultimate decision making) at best just disrupt any decision making.... 

Philip was definitely thinking along those lines when he warned her about that. It would be pretty great if they tried to send in some girl and Kimmy said no so they were foiled yet again!

28 minutes ago, AllyB said:

Gregory was coolness personified!

I did say most! :-)

[sistermagpie]

Quote

Suggesting all that--the character's inner life--begins with the writer, and then passes to the actor and director. It's done at all those levels, in any kind of show. For instance, I’d say that the problem with HT’s performance is the lack of inner life—we get only the surface, or what actors call "conversational reality"—whereas a better performance lets you sense and intuit what’s underneath the outline on the page. Paige, as written, seems very childlike and not too bright. But imagine if an actor could have played exactly the same material, but hinting at Paige's motives, inner damage, hopes and dreams, hang-ups, emotional needs. That kind of thing always lies, ultimately, with actors, whether they're given pages of lines or just a few. (I often wish that Garner had Taylor's part. She has little to work with, but her Kimmy is a fully realized young woman.)

This whole post was so great to read, just about acting and writing in general, but this is around what I feel like I'm always trying to say with Paige. People often say, for instance, that her scenes are repetitive and she has nothing to work with. But one could also say that on the page Martha's scenes were repetitive--how many times did she seem to be getting a clue only to get sucked in by Clark again? Yet she was actually changing and growing throughout the show. That didn't come from the writers explicitly saying that in the dialogue, it was a combination of scenes they wrote as a blueprint and the actors and director working with them to show subtle changes. That relationship was always changing.

I think the same is true with Paige. Many didn't like the Pastor Tim stuff but I thought it was a great idea to have her tell the truth and then see the consequences of sharing a secret with someone who now has to be contained. Paige went through a lot of different phases on the show, but it was less interesting, imo, because of what's described here. It was conversational reality with not much to get underneath. I think one reason why HT seems better this season is she's no longer trying to telegraph that Paige is worried or upset all the time, so she doesn't always look stricken. But even with the loss of speaking her lines hesitantly or looking upset there's little difference between the way Paige argues with her mother now compared to when she was a kid.

Sure you could say that the writing just always has Paige arguing with her mother about not letting her be herself, but that in itself isn't a problem. People usually do struggle with the same issues throughout. The same is true for Philip and Elizabeth and their issues. But with them imo you can see the different places they are now in the performances. That's what I see in Paige. It's not that she's arguing with her mother about the same things again, it's that there never seems to be anything there except that she's arguing with her mother again.

For instance, I remember being really struck by the scene when everyone's watching The Day After. It's people watching a movie. There's at least 4 people in that room with a personal connection to the Cold War--Stan, Philip, Elizabeth and Paige. The three adults play the scene looking like people watching a movie but you're aware of stuff going on underneath even if you can't explicitly identity all of it. Paige has this big worried look on her face. It took me out of the scene. (Though symbolically it works since it made it seem like the whole scene and therefore the threat of nuclear war was all about Paige!) It also often comes across as overacting as if she's trying to show emotions she's not really feeling. Compare that even to a small moment like Henry's "Oh" when Philip told him about the problems with school. Not going to hand KS an Emmy for that, but it did the job for me and I didn't need anything else to imagine what was going on with Henry after he hung up the phone.

Anyway, this just really nailed it for me and explained why I often feel like I have to defend the writers on the Paige story even while seeing the flaws in it--not blaming everything on the actress, of course. But this show depends so so much on that part of the acting it's very difficult having Paige at the center of it.

Quote

Mad Men was micromanaged nearly to death by the writing, actors were NOT allowed to improvise, or even bring anything other than Weiner's scripted emotions to a scene, even something like "character looks down, sighs, glances up" was WRITTEN into scenes.  Honestly, I don't know how the actors could stand it.  (All of the above from commentary.) If an actor so much as turned their face away, or touched their jacket, they were scolded and told to do the scene again AS WRITTEN.

And even there that didn't mean that the writers weren't getting anything from the performances. I know the writers, for instance, started asking if they could write more for Kiernan Shipka early on because she was so engaging in her scenes. It's quite possible that Sally's role in the show might have been very different and much smaller if that hadn't happened. Because no matter how much MW was micromanaging the performances, when the writers started work on the new season they were going to be working from the episodes that had come before and the actors' work would be part of that. I know Joan, in particular, became a different character when Christina Hendricks audition too.

I also thought of MM wrt to another thing on the thread about stage business--that scene where Paige is mopping the floor and it seemed weird. I remember in S6 MM had two scenes where an actor had to do a fall. In one it didn't look natural. Maybe it was just a bad take, but you could see the actor basically steer themselves to the thing they were supposed to trip on and drunkenly fall onto it. In the other it looked so natural that there were tons of .gifs made of it and people even theorized it was a mistake. Iirc, the actor was even asked if it was a mistake and they were like, "Um, no, if I actually fell down in the middle of a take they'd cut."

[Umbelina]

Yes, the writers on Mad Men capitalized on performers they enjoyed writing for.  The scripts the actors were given though?  Had explicit stage directions and emotion directions and actors were terrified (other than the leads) to vary even a tiny bit in anything. 

Back to Paige.

I think she had Botox for the eyebrow issue.  They never shoot to her forehead anymore.  If so?  Wise choice, and well done, they still move, just not that high.

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, the writers on Mad Men capitalized on performers they enjoyed writing for.  The scripts the actors were given though?  Had explicit stage directions and emotion directions and actors were terrified (other than the leads) to vary even a tiny bit in anything. 

And even doing that, the actors have to make that work. Take the famous line "Not great, Bob!" MW could give a line reading for that in terms of how to say it, but what made the line such a surprising hit was how it came out. I remember somebody asked the actor about it and they seemed to think it was all about them deciding on a line reading, like what to emphasize etc. But the actor said it was more MW being very clear about what the character was feeling and that's what made it come out the way it did.

There's been at least a couple of times I remember on the show--Stingers and the scene where Elizabeth yells at Paige in David Copperfield--where I swear they mentioned doing a lot of rehearsing and coaching of HT and imo it doesn't really show on the screen. Or the next day in the "speak Russian" scene, I love the scene for what Philip and Elizabeth seem to be experiencing, but I honestly don't feel like Paige is feeling anything specific at all. I know she's been awake all night because she's still wearing her clothes, but I don't actually feel like she didn't just lay down to start the scene.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, the writers on Mad Men capitalized on performers they enjoyed writing for.  The scripts the actors were given though?  Had explicit stage directions and emotion directions and actors were terrified (other than the leads) to vary even a tiny bit in anything. 

That makes me think of the famous "Not great, Bob!" line. I remember that line was such a hit people were asking the actor about how he chose the line reading and of course it wasn't about how to *read* the line that made it funny. He said MW just talked to him a lot about what the character was feeling and that's how it came out.

I swear there's been at least 2 times they talked about heavily rehearsing scenes with HT and coaching her but the scenes never seemed to be that great on her end anyway. The "speak Russian" is another one where the scene's great for what Philip and Elizabeth are doing but I'm not really sure what Paige is supposed to be thinking or feeling at all. I get that she's supposed to have been awake all night because she's in her clothes still but I know she just crawled into the bed for the start of the scene and is intentionally sounding listless. Totally different than, say, post-reveal Martha scenes.

Edited April 30, 2018 by sistermagpie

[SusanSunflower]

The video above seems to make it clear from things she says explicitly, that the writers brought her along giving her little scenes and gradually expanding her role as she proved she could handle it ... It also doesn't sound like she has a drama coach (which she needs if she's going to prattle on about how hard it is cry on cue) and she seems very very young (younger than the character Paige, even as Holly has seemingly lived a very "normal' life where her highschool classmates don't even know she's an actress.  She seems more affirmative about studying acting (previous interview was hesitant) but she may do graphic design instead, because a friend from school..... 

The word that I would use to describe what Holly lacks is "presence" ... which she says is true IRL ... nobody recognizes her ever.  Heads do not turn.  No one looks up.  Which is vaguely odd since she has studied ballet "since age 3" and broke out in Billy Madison on Broadway years ago. ( I will give that Paige's good posture is a delight to see, but Keri/Elizabeth know that they have to use bad posture, chin down, shoulders up to avoid drawing looks).  (Her breathless high voice and "nerves" in the interview surprised me also ...could not be a more friendly interview) 

Holly might become a better actor with acting lessons ... she seems to be being mentored by the writers and cast members who are very pleased and proud of her progress.  She might also consider some martial arts training, even Tai Chi to learn how to keep her feet on the ground and her bottom in the chair convincingly, like real people in real life, rather than often appearing that she arrived just before the cameras started rolling.  There's literally a "lack of gavity" ... she still looks and projects much too  young and too "innocent"/bland.   Note, the character IS beginning to project "presence" ... the actress  (I'm not sure when this was filmed) not yet apparently. 

I'd love to watch her knock it out of the park this week. 

Note that all bets are off if the writers failed to give Holly -- the start of Season 3) a 6-8 page backstory/profile of Paige (the unspoken back-stuff we never necessarily see, but stuff like how she viewed having a new baby brother or starting kindergarten ... etc.  Knowledge and understanding of the character (intuitive even) can go a long way using in impromptu fashion, things like sense memory with getting all Stanaslavki about things. 

eta:Yikes,  and if they told her to model Paige after herself, a girl like you, double damn. 

Edited April 30, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

Quote

 

Having empathy and sensitivity isn't something that only comes with age.  I've seen very young children react more appropriately to things much less devastating than what Claudia went through when she was about Paige's age.   However, the writers probably did script that giggle from Paige, so I think they are just telling us this season that she's an uncaring, self-centered, nincompoop who not only can't be competent as a spy, but really isn't a very nice person at all.

 

I think Paige has always been portrayed as somebody who wants to improve the world, but at the same time she's actually never been shown much caring about or liking people. It's really mostly her mother who gets most of her moments of actual sympathy, like the time she offers to make her some food when she's come home after a long day of spying. This season she's got that "She reminds me of you, Mom!" moment. But of course Paige has a huge stake in that relationship. And even so, as has been noted this season, Paige hasn't noticed her mother being overly stressed at all this season.

Otherwise she does have many times where she's clearly *aware* of empathetic feelings. She's said things like, "That sounds mean" about wanting to get rid of Pastor Tim or "You've been so good to me" about Alex. In the first season she once kind of reprimanded Elizabeth for making fun of her teacher's hairlip. Those are values she'd have been taught growing up.

But her morals are clearly so malleable and connected to the person whose approval she's trying to get. It makes it seem like it's not really her morals, like she just wants to be a "good" instead of actually caring about people or coming to conclusions of what is good herself. They didn't write her thinking through Pastor Tim's pov and changing it so much as just signalling to her mother that she was ready to be converted to her church now and then doing that during the time jump.

Plus the fact that she doesn't really seem to have many warm personal relationships makes it hard to see that side of her. None of the characters are really shown being warm towards random people--Philip is obviously the one who mainly is shown caring for people on principle and being protective of them. But I think Paige has been particularly self-absorbed from the get to. This made sense since she was a young girl trying to figure out show she was, but it led to a pattern where she seems to attention-seek from one person to another and then cut the person off when they let her down. 

One could also say that Henry sought out people because he was interested in getting something from them (obviously Stan, Matthew and Chris all attracted him in some way) and he's just as capable of being rude to or suck up to people as Paige is, but I think he's also been clearly shown as more able to genuinely care about others just in a casual way. He feels guilty about the guy he hit with the bottle in case he hurt him, in case the guy wasn't really going to hurt them. (Paige not only doesn't feel guilty about hitting the friendly guy in the bar, she claims he deserved it.) He doesn't feel guilty, it seems, about breaking into the neighbor's house, but that's because he doesn't think he really hurt anybody. But he also at that age seemed capable of a somewhat sophisticated understanding of how the neighbors now saw him and understand that that he'd brought that on himself. 

Most obviously, she's betraying her entire country without seeming to have given it much thought. She's switched her allegiance to Russia without having any actual experience of the country beyond getting the approval of her mom and her mom's friend Claudia. All this to me make her still kind of staggeringly self-absorbed in ways that are no longer explained by her age. 

[Bannon]

I was a little annoyed with idea put forth that the dislike of how Paige is written is similar to the dislike of Skyler White in Breaking Bad. I thought Anna Gunn was tremendous in that well written role, and agree that those who heaped scorn on that character, because she was an impediment to Walt's immoral activities, were pretty perverse. In contrast, Holly Taylor has not done much with what is admittedly a role that has been written in a somewhat pedestrian fashion, and if someone has expressed a desire, as I have, for a scene where a 100 pound woman gets knocked out with one punch by an opponent who weighs twice as much, it isn't due to misogyny, but rather a preference for television writing that has a modicum of respect for the actual physical world. No, I don't like the Marvel Comics movies.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Bannon

[qtpye]

5 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I was a little annoyed with idea out forth that the dislike of how Paige is written is similar to the dislike of Skyler White in Breaking Bad. I thought Anna Gunn was tremendous in that well written role, and agree that those who heaped scorn on that character, because she was an impediment to Walt's immoral activities, were pretty perverse. In contrast, Holly Taylor has not done much with what is admittedly a role that has been written in a somewhat pedestrian fashion, and if someone has expressed a desire, as I have, for a scene where a 100 pound woman gets knocked out with one punch by an opponent who weighs twice as much, it isn't due to misogyny, but rather a preference for television writing that has a modicum of respect for the actual physical world. No, I don't like the Marvel Comics movies.

The creator of the show was a master at creating fascinating characters. I think he purposefully made Skylar unlikable so people would feel sympathy for Walt, at least at the beginning. I disliked Walt later in the very first season and did not love Skylar, but felt like she was in an impossible situation. Also, you are correct that Anna Gunn was excellent in that role. 

Here I feel that the creators think that we are as fascinated and intrigued with Paige as they are. The actress is very YA and simply does not have the screen presence to hold our attention or be believable in this role. They should have KO'd this storyline or tried to do it with Henry. It falls flat and has already taken up too much time in the final season.

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, qtpye said:

The creator of the show was a master at creating fascinating characters. I think he purposefully made Skylar unlikable so people would feel sympathy for Walt, at least at the beginning. I disliked Walt later in the very first season and did not love Skylar, but felt like she was in an impossible situation. Also, you are correct that Anna Gunn was excellent in that role. 

Here I feel that the creators think that we are as fascinated and intrigued with Paige as they are. The actress is very YA and simply does not have the screen presence to hold our attention or be believable in this role. They should have KO'd this storyline or tried to do it with Henry. It falls flat and has already taken up too much time in the final season.

Vince Gilligan & Co. rarely make the mistake of writing characters stupid for purposes of plot advancement, and they rarely lack faith in the audience. They aren't afraid that the audience will grow too bored if time is taken to develop the story in a believable way. No, they aren't perfect. The simulteaneous mass assassinations in multiple prisons, and Walt exploding his way out of Tuco's headquarters were episodes which could have been executed better. I excused the huge magnet at the police evidence room because the intended effect had a large comic element. Overall, though, the character development is so very high, that it isn't hard to overlook imperfections.

When a show just consistently writes characters dumb, however, a phenomena which even infected Liz and Phil in last season's Midge-a-palooza, it gets a lot harder to overlook other stuff. Thankfully, actors like Rhys, Russell, Wright, Martindale, Langella, and Thomas have done a great job of compensating for the writing. I've not been a fan of Emmerich, and I know many differ here, but to be fair, I think the writers have botched Stan even worse than Paige.

[sistermagpie]

43 minutes ago, qtpye said:

The creator of the show was a master at creating fascinating characters. I think he purposefully made Skylar unlikable so people would feel sympathy for Walt, at least at the beginning. I disliked Walt later in the very first season and did not love Skylar, but felt like she was in an impossible situation. Also, you are correct that Anna Gunn was excellent in that role. 

 

There was also not really any question for me anyway about what Skylar's motivations were. She had basic smarts--like when she guesses what Walt is doing just from the things she's observed. But even her choices to get involved with him rather than pull the trigger on her life which she probably would have made sense. Not all her motivations were noble, but that's fine, characters don't have to be noble. When she makes a choice that's dangerous you know it's going to blow up in her face.

If you look at Paige the same way it seems as written and played as if she's just ridiculously naive. Sometimes it seems like they're trying to have it both ways. Like they want Paige's story to be some cool YA fantasy where she comes into her own and becomes strong and they're hoping nobody notices that it relies on her being immature and stupid. 

[MisterBluxom]

On 4/5/2018 at 5:03 PM, Umbelina said:

So, about Paige having some cushy well placed job somewhere, someday.

The idea that she wouldn't need and use all of the spy skills Elizabeth has used, to me?  Is ridiculous.

While I agree that at this stage of her training, grooming for the future, the KGB, including Claudia and Liz, should be more concerned about Paige making contacts, getting skills that would make her valuable so she could be placed in the "right" job for the KGB.  Basically Paige should be doing what Henry is already doing.

Along with that though?

She DOES have to know every spy trick in the book, because there are so many reasons and possibilities of her needing all of them.  Yes, including sex, and while most embedded spies didn't actually kill people or do breaking and entering (the Russian Embassy took care of crap like that, not valuable agents posing as Americans with covers.)  Still, Paige might need to do those things as well.

WHY?

There are so many ways!

Paige gets a low level job at the White House, or FBI, or for a key Senator, or Military, whatever, it doesn't really matter.  She will meet people who have FAR more access to information than she does, specifically information that the KGB or GRU needs at that moment.

So yes, every single skill could be needed, including sex.  She will meet contacts, powerful contacts, and she will have to spy, and protect her cover, and be observant, and probably know how to break into an office safe, or set up a listening device, or have a relationship, including sex, with someone key to an operation.  People talk to their lovers, or at the very least, might not be quite as careful with secrets or documents with someone they "love."

Spies use anything and everything, and Paige would need to as well.  I can think of hundreds of examples, and no, it wouldn't ruin Paige's reputation to have sex with someone.  She's not going to be doing all of this in the 1950's, it will be 1990's by the time she's fully up and running. 

Assuming she would ever be good at being a spy is the stumbling point, because so far?  She sucks.

When I read this post, my mind went back to the encounter between Phillip and Chris Amador. I have no idea what it is about your post that caused me to flash back to that encounter.

But I think it may be the similarity between Paige and Chris. Chris figured he was an FBI agent and that was all that it would take, He would arrest Phillip and Phillip would be caught and Phillip would be sorry. Then everyone would know that you don't mess with Amador's women.

But events did not unfold in the way Chris expected. Maybe one day Paige will also be faced with an event and a set of expectations and that will be followed by her funeral?

Could that be the connection? I wonder if the show runners will ever show us what will happen to Paige the first time she is faced with a real life and death situation. She will have the opportunity - for the first time - to act real surprised. We have never seen Paige try to act truly surprised before. I guess I'd like to see her try to act surprised. It would be fun to watch her try.

Edited May 2, 2018 by MissBluxom

[Ellaria]

I cannot watch Paige without screaming. 

She will commit to a cause that she knows little about other than what Mom and Faux Granny tell her. She isn’t curious enough to ask questions. She will go all in because...well, she doesn’t have any friends, so why not.

And all of that is delivered with the same raised eyebrow and blank stare. Sorry for this rant but - after watching such a tense, depressing episode - I have no interest in this storyline. It has been executed horribly, IMO.

Feel free to disagree.

[hellmouse]

In this March 27 article from the Hollywood Reporter, The Americans Team Teases Manic Series Finale, Holly Taylor is quoted as saying 

Quote

 

As for what else Paige has been up to in the three years between seasons, Taylor said the writers gave her "a vague idea."

"She's in college," Taylor said of Paige in season six. "She's had a lot of growth this year; she's more confident, like, comfortable within herself, doesn't really care what other people think, and that gives you a lot to work with."

 

That is not a lot to work with. I think the writers let her down. 

[sistermagpie]

44 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

And all of that is delivered with the same raised eyebrow and blank stare. Sorry for this rant but - after watching such a tense, depressing episode - I have no interest in this storyline. It has been executed horribly, IMO.

Yeah, I agree. I'll bet Holly Taylor has no idea what Paige is even really referring to when she talks about "the system" keeping people down, but obviously Paige is supposed to be the same way. She herself even says, "It's like you and Claudia say." She's not doing outside research or coming up with this stuff. If somebody asked her to explain this stuff she'd sound lost. The kids in her class really are more political than she is. Pastor Tim was more political. They were dealing with real problems. Paige is just spying for a certain country and pretending there's some wider meaning to it.

 

44 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

She will commit to a cause that she knows little about other than what Mom and Faux Granny tell her. She isn’t curious enough to ask questions. She will go all in because...well, she doesn’t have any friends, so why not.

The fact that they actually had her say she had no friends and that her biggest fear was BEING ALONE seems like they must be doing something there. She's sitting around waiting for her Philip. Elizabeth needs to remember that Philip was a one in a billion lucky shot for her.

"That is not a lot to work with. I think the writers let her down. "

Though tbf seems like MR never got back story either and she's 20 now and his playing this for a while.

Edited May 10, 2018 by sistermagpie

[SunnyBeBe]

Where do you think Holly will go after her role in The Americans?  I never thought much about Keri Russell as a dramatic actor, but, she really surprised me with when this show hit the air, although, I suppose that Felicity was considered drama. Just very different from what we see in this show.