Paige: The Private Investigator

[SlovakPrincess]

I think the problems with Paige really do come down, mostly, to writing.  I'm not sure what Holly Taylor could do to make this character make more sense.

The comparison to Kimmie ... well, it may be that the Kimmie actress is better, but Kimmie's motivations and storyline actually make a bit more sense than Paige's.  Kimmie is young and naive in a lot of ways, but sometimes seems wiser because she's so used to being alone and going out late because she has no supervision.  But she's basically a lonely young woman who was intrigued by this older guy, and she genuinely has a good heart and sees some of Philip's vulnerabilities even through all of his lies.  

Paige on the other hand -- this story was kind of impossible from the moment they decided Paige would be told outright and look worried for two seasons straight, rather than being carefully assessed for her skills and manipulated over time to serve the Centre's ends.  It's played out as Paige just asking Elizabeth questions and unquestioningly eating up whatever she's told.  

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Paige on the other hand -- this story was kind of impossible from the moment they decided Paige would be told outright and look worried for two seasons straight, rather than being carefully assessed for her skills and manipulated over time to serve the Centre's ends.  It's played out as Paige just asking Elizabeth questions and unquestioningly eating up whatever she's told.  

To be fair there's reasons why they wanted it like that and it could make sense. Paige is like Elizabeth who also unquestioningly eats up what she's told. But with Elizabeth it all makes sense. She's grown up thinking it was a virtue to not ask questions and to follow orders. To put the State above the self. Elizabeth also tried to replace relationships with flawed and unreliable humans--with an eternal cause and a father-figure state. But for her that made sense.

On Paige it becomes a weak young woman who just bows to the strongest will in her orbit immediately and completely. Where Elizabeth seeks to embody the inner traits of a hero Paige copies the superficial traits--punching, cool clothes, a secret, spy talk. She's just as centered on herself as always.

I'm not sure any actress could have made this made more sense. HT's acting is a separate issue. A different actress might actually make her scenes more interesting and entertaining--we might have come away thinking Paige was genuinely unhinged instead of dumb and naive. But that's a different thing.

[Umbelina]

Discussing the Paige haters, and that Holly should have an emmy. 

[SusanSunflower]

I'm wondering just how long Elizabeth thought she could get away with lying to Paige (Paige who likely wasn't going to end up "safe" from honey-pot assignments in a desk job at the State Department ... and how much Elizabeth's vanity wrt not wanting Paige to know and possibly (ha) disapprove her her, Elizabeth.   Paige's ignorance about murders accomplished while she was doing stake out or resulting from her stake out is intact.   Is Elizabeth delusional or in deep deep denial?    Paige had an inkling that Elizabeth might be using her "charms" but likely not on someone as piddling and pitiful as the intern, i.e. her peer, or in other words, almost literally "anyone" ...  My impression was that Paige thought honey-potting as kind of sexy and powerful ... screwing boys young enough to be your son?  so you can ... not even promise them more sex ... but entrap them by deception into a career-ruining, life-altering scam, seriously not sexy.   See also Song-Hee, husband and family. 

No, I don't think Paige is quick enough to have put it all together, but how did Elizabeth think this deception would end? or did she think Paige would somehow magically never know the truth, that the job involves a lot of spreading your legs for your country, and not on your own initiative?   The intern's confession to the room seemed unlikely to me but, meh, he was drunk .... 

Edited May 24, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Umbelina]

That was a very well done scene last night during the Paige/Elizabeth confrontation.

Finally!

Holly Taylor held her own.

[Umbelina]

Quote

Do we know exactly when Paige decided to bolt? No, though she certainly didn’t look happy when we saw her walking up the train aisle earlier in the sequence. And we don’t need to know exactly why, because she had so many reasons, and they’d been building ever since her parents told her the truth back in “Stingers.” The surprise isn’t so much that she gets off the train, but that she leaves her apartment with them in the first place after the penultimate episode’s kitchen argument with Elizabeth about Jackson, and that you can credit to the heat of the moment and the effective bullying of her parents. It’s a long train trip from the DC area to Canada, plenty of time for Paige to realize how much she’ll hate life in Russia, how little she can trust her mom and dad, and how she can’t leave Henry behind. When last we see her, she’s a woman without a country: a trained and indoctrinated Soviet operative with no handlers and no mission to believe in, drinking vodka from Claudia’s abandoned kitchen because it’s the only thing that makes sense. Stan probably has to stay silent, which means she has a chance to have a life, though the State Department job or anything remotely like it are no longer possibilities. But can she ever fully put this behind her, or has she been broken as much as Pastor Tim once feared?

https://uproxx.com/sepinwall/the-americans-series-finale-recap-start-review-spoilers/

[Plums]

I really like Sepinwall's take there. 

I've seen such a variety of interpretations of what Paige plans to do or even can do from so many reviews, and I've been thinking of it myself. I like that the showrunners deliberately left the fate of the characters open for audience interpretation. 

I don't think she's going on the run, as I've seen suggested. What would be the point of staying if she thinks she has to avoid detection by the authorities? She might just as well have gone to Russia for all the good she'll do Henry on the lam. And if she was going to run, she wouldn't have gone back to DC without a disguise. 

My interpretation is she knew her apartment was being watched, so she went to Claudia's safehouse just to breathe and decompress, take it all in and think about what she was going to do next. I think she stayed in the US because she realized she's American and belongs there, not Russia, that her parents have each other, but Henry has no one. She wants to be there for her brother. She wants to be Paige Jennings. That's her identity.

I think it was significant when Paige asked if Stan could be trusted and Philip told her "yes" so definitively. I think Paige is going to go to Stan. I think she'll be interrogated by the FBI and not be able to give them the details of her parents operations because she honestly doesn't know them. The one operation they told her about was when they thought the US was intentionally trying to cause a famine in the Soviet Union, because that's an unequivocal case of USA = Evil, and that operation turned out to be a lie, though they didn't realize it when they told her. She knows the locations of some of Elizabeth's operations in the lead up to the summit because she was a lookout, she knows her father hated being a spy and was retired from it for the three years he was just a travel agent, and she knows her parents went to Chicago. She knew her mother was involved with the death of someone in the military who was a source, but she didn't know who he was, which they can probably deduce was the general. I don't know if she'll reveal those details though, because that would mean revealing that she helped out on operations as surveillance. 

In order to be in her brother's life and return to some form of normalcy, she may give up that she knew her parents were spies and kept their secret, but because she was a teenager protecting her parents, and she didn't go with them to Russia, there's a likely chance they go easier on her. But not if she reveals she was actively helping them outside of not turning them in. She knows Claudia betrayed Elizabeth and that she's gone, so she may not have any scruples about giving up the Soviet Indoctrination Girl Times. She spent time with her mom and her mom's handler, and they just talked about when they were young in the Soviet Union, "we watched Russian movies and TV and cooked Russian food and listened to Russian music, because my mom wanted me to understand her and her country and her culture, because she knew how hard it was for me knowing my whole life was a lie after I found out the truth". Something like that. That isn't espionage. It's emotional manipulation, and it helps her with regards to how the FBI will treat her. I imagine they'll ask her similar questions to what they'll ask Henry to get some idea of what her parents were up to. Like, she may reveal a timeframe where her dad was away on business two days a week, and they'll connect that to Martha's marriage. Whatever she says, I think it will be enough to let her go back to more or less living the life she had before, so that she can be there for Henry. She'll just be monitored and is definitely not getting any sort of government job or security clearance any time soon though, so she'll have to figure out a different future for herself than the one she planned.

Maybe she confides in Stan too, idk. If she reveals more to him privately than she reveals to the FBI, I don't think he can give her up or that he may even want to. They both know he let her parents go. The FBI is going to tear apart the travel agency and Stan will know Philip was telling the truth about being there full time for the last three years, but I imagine it will be comforting as well if Paige can confirm just how tired and miserable Phillip was before he quit and that he fought with Elizabeth all the time about involving her in spying and wanted her to live a normal life. 

[Erin9]

I had a thought about Paige and lying. I’ve been watching early S2 when she really starts snooping into her parents lives, sneaking out to meet aunt Helen and lying about going to the church. Paige can say she isn’t a liar, but when it’s something she really wants to lie about, it doesn’t seem to bother her that much.  And she can do it. And, of course, lying by omission, she is more than capable of. 

[sistermagpie]

Quote

This season, one that specifically stands out is Philip telling Elizabeth, he KNOWS Paige can handle it, Paige can handle ANYTHING.  It may have been when Elizabeth was expressing very covered doubts, or it may have been another time, where Philip says that (about spying) I KNOW she CAN do it, I'm not sure if she SHOULD do it.

This is from the START thread regarding Philip and Elizabeth always praising Paige's abilities--her being stated as smart and capable and able to handle whatever thing it is. To me it actually always seemed like the show presented Paige as pretty average with her parents' opinions on the matter almost always being more about how they felt in that moment than any objective reality.

Times I can specifically remember one or both of them saying something about her abilities are these:

Early on Elizabeth says she thinks Henry is like Philip and will be fine whatever happens, but that Paige is fragile somehow.

When they're discussing Jared being exfiltrated somewhere (not yet knowing he was recruited) Elizabeth says both their kids would be dead in a week if that happened to them. Philip claims that Paige can "out-think anyone." (Henry is just a kid but in a few years...who knows.)

Philip claims Paige is "strong...like her mother" to Gabriel.

Philip says Paige "can't handle this...any of it" to Elizabeth.

Philip says Paige being recruited would "destroy her."

Philip tells Gabriel that Paige "grew up here" meaning she can't handle this life like they can.

Elizabeth claims Paige is "good at some of this stuff" about Paige's spying.

Elizabeth tells Philip that Paige "got a name wrong" (referring to the disaster with the sailor) and he says they did too when they were learning.

Paige says maybe Philip was right and Paige can't do this. Philip says he never said she couldn't, he said she shouldn't.

Elizabeth says Paige learns from her mistakes (so whatever problem just happened won't happen again).

Philip compliments Paige on sticking with the church in the face of parental disapproval.

These are things I remember from different times, not always in context. Pastor Tim is also highly complimentary of Paige, but I think he mostly talks about her commitment and heart. When we hear his unguarded thoughts on Paige he worries that her parents have made her incapable of telling right from wrong.

To me it always seems like these lines from Philip and Elizabeth are more about how they need to feel in the moment more than the show using them to tell me that Paige is objectively really impressive. The line that seems the most concrete is Philip saying Paige can out-think anyone and that was during the time when she was starting to hammer on them about all their cover stories so I believed that he genuinely saw her as a worthy opponent then.

But it didn't seem to me that the show was ever particularly presenting her as really smart or strong in general. The showrunners talked about her being these things, but at least sometimes I wondered if they weren't just being defensive of her in the face of the audience seeing her as a weak-minded idiot. What they didn't seem to be doing to me is using the show to present her this way. Looking over the whole thing this is what made an impression on me.

Is Paige particularly able to "handle it?"

The mugging gives her PTSD to the point where she's sleeping in a closet. The revelation of her parents' secret throws her into a long depression and makes her feel hopeless. She comes out of it by adopting her mother's entire outlook on life. In fact, she's also shown not once but twice adopting the worldviews of someone else so completely even when they contradict her own previous outlook. Pastor Tim doesn't just inspire her to want to help the world, she becomes a big Christian as well who now spends all her time at the church. Then she switches to Elizabeth's 60s-style Soviet Communism, betraying her country seemingly without much thought. Paige's one explanation of this is that she needs someplace to "put it all" when it comes to her "crazy life."

While outside the show it seemed like Paige's switch to spying was connected to Paige being "more confident" at last, within the show it doesn't seem like there's much effort made to counteract the impression that Paige has just found another leader to follow without question. She doesn't question or challenge, just tries to find ways to agree. The one area she does question is regarding sex, which goes back to her one area of intelligence--feeling like there's something her parents aren't telling her.

Does Paige show talent and capability at being a spy?

Again, I'd say no. Her entire spy career takes place in S6 and her best moments are the ones where she manages to follow directions without problem (taking pictures in the hall, driving away upon hearing the signal to drive away, sitting in the diner). There are three big incidents that focus on her and all of them are used to show her failing in important ways:

With the sailor she has no control of the interaction at any point, loses her ID and manages to make 2 mistakes about a name she had plenty of time to read and memorize up close.

With the General she panics, leaves her post and calls Elizabeth "Mom." (She also fails to spot the murder in front of her.)

In the bar she makes a spectacle of herself and reveals self-defense skills that she's not supposed to have.

She reacts to all of these things the same way, by being sulky and defensive and claiming she gets it when she doesn't. Iow, she shows a dangerous lack of skill and has an attitude so bad she doesn't even realize it. Even in the garage she's a terrible liar and contradicts her parents when they're doing their own lying. It's the first time she's confronted with an angry person talking about specific crimes and she apologizes. You'd never know from this scene that she's supposed to be a professional now. (Which is probably good for her in the longrun.)

Is Paige academically/in general smart?

The one way that Paige was smart was about her parents. Even in the pilot she's questioning why Philip is meeting a client after what she considers business hours. She asks what kind of emergencies travel agents have that her parents are always running around. She asks why they don't have family, why the phone rings and they leave. She's suspicious enough that she goes to the address she has for Aunt Helen. She asks what Elizabeth was doing in the laundry room with the machine not running. She feels like there's something going on she doesn't know about. She looks up Gregory in the paper, comes up with things her parents could be lying about (affairs, drug dealing, witness protection, aliens...). When she finally figures out that spying is a dirty business it's because she hears about a story involving an older woman and the summit and doesn't buy Elizabeth's bad lying about it.

This is maybe connected to her consistent need for truth. She doesn't want to be a liar. Isn't a liar. Is a bad liar. Finally seems to reject Pastor Tim when his comforting words to her don't match up what he said in his diary.

Now, on the question of Paige being smart here again the show could have very easily made her a great student. Instead the show makes her a conscientious student without much brilliance. We see her doing homework a lot (with Henry we hear he doesn't do his homework or study). It seems part of of her overall responsible nature--she does chores around the house too. But it's Henry who's actually presented as an exceptional student once he takes an interest in school. (And even before that he was the one who showed interest in independent study even in academic subjects like astronomy and computers.) He also handles challenges on his own and also excels at hockey. (The fact that the coach thinks he'll be team captain says he's also shown leadership skills.) Henry gets a lot objective validation of his abilities. In fact, one might even suspect that the parents insist on Paige's abilities more because she's not as exceptional as everyone else in the family, even if they hide their abilities at different points.

Paige going to college was another opportunity to easily telegraph that Paige is strong academically. Even if they wanted her to stay close to home, she lives near DC. Not only do they not send her to Georgetown as a shorthand for her being academically strong, they have a scene highlighting her being an also-ran when a guy mistakenly thinks she goes to Georgetown. Apart from her logic regarding her parents lies (which could be more connected to her having an instinct for truth rather than logic) most of what she says regarding any subject is parroted from someone else.

So to me it seems like Paige was actually presented as quite ordinary in these departments and that the area where she stood out the most was in being a passionate follower. We know that they could have written scenes to show her off in any of these areas because other characters are shown doing it.

Edited June 18, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Plums]

@sistermagpie

I've never really had a negative opinion about Paige, and never thought she was supposed to be seen as particularly brilliant. The things she gets suspicious about are things any kid would get suspicious about if they cared to see. She starts noticing that her parents are gone at all hours and that it isn't normal for travel agents to work the way they do. She knows they shut themselves up in the laundry room and aren't doing laundry. She knows they don't have any family and that she'd never heard of Aunt Helen before her mother all of a sudden had to go and take care of her for two months. She knows they're keeping some major secret from her about their lives and telling her lies to cover it up, and it's super obvious. The fact that she lets it bother her to the degree where she is first seeking escape from them with the church and then demanding answers from them, imagining all these different scenarios, show a couple things about her to me- she's like Elizabeth in the way where she hates being lied to and would prefer to know the truth no matter what, and her sense of her own identity is very tied to her parents. If they aren't what they appear to be, then she isn't either, and not knowing the truth about her parents is making her go crazy. I agree with your perception of Paige being rather codependent, in that way. She doesn't forge an independent sense of self the way Henry is able to. 

I disagree that she needs to find some charismatic leader to follow and that that explains the Tims. She got into the church through the youth group and felt inspired by Pastor Tim's activism, yes, but I think it was more about the community and the activism for her at first, and it started as an escape from her parents and a way to deal with the stress knowing that they had some secret life was giving her, not out of some innate need to be led. She genuinely found religion and comfort in progressive Christianity though. That isn't some indication of weakness or something. And she did trust Pastor Tim and look up to him, but I never felt she was dependent on him. He advised her to confront her parents and demand the truth from them in the capacity of a youth pastor, but there's nothing to indicate she was anything more than an involved new convert and active parishioner. She didn't become nearly as involved in the church or the Tims as you referenced until after she had told him about her parents- a decision she made in the wake of being confronted with the depth of just how false her life was after meeting her Russian grandmother in Germany, where her mother was scared about them being followed, and then hearing her mother speaking Russian to this woman she never knew about. She needed to confide in someone she could trust because it was all just too much for her. Because she's an emotional 15 year old.

I think people tend to forget that Paige is a teenager when they judge her. Of course she's not acting with all the forethought she should have when she called Tim. What teenager doesn't make extremely regrettable, impulsive decisions? She's not even the only hurting teenage girl in the show impulsively breaking her spy parents' trust and confiding the secret to a third party she shouldn't, and I don't see anyone insulting Kimmy's intelligence more than they express sympathy for her, the way Paige gets treated. And Paige immediately regretted telling him, and the knowledge that she told someone and could have sent her parents to jail ended up torturing her way more than her parents keeping a secret in the first place had tortured her. And after telling Tim, and confessing to her parents she told him, only then does she start spending all her time at church, with the food pantry and bible study every week. but that's because she now has to maintain a relationship with the Tims to protect her family, not out of any greater desire to be involved. It eventually disillusions her because it's not an escape anymore but more stress, and she doesn't trust Tim after he told Alice. Church isn't so much that safe space because the trust isn't there. But she kept the principles, the values. At the same time, her parents were opening up to her more, and that sense that they were finally starting to let her in made home feel more safe than it had. 

Now, this is where I break a lot with common interpretations of Paige. People think she's stupid for not intuitively knowing that her parents hurt people because they're spies, but the thing is, you have to look at it from her point of view. When they aren't mysteriously away from the house engaging in one clandestine operation in the middle of the night or another, they're at home, and they're loving, active, relatively normal parents. Could you imagine your parents, whom you love and you know love you, secretly being assassins or insinuating themselves into another person or family's life with a false identity so that they can eventually manipulate someone into giving them access to classified information, oftentimes destroying their lives in the process? When Philip is teasing Paige while he's teaching her to drive, this all-American father-daughter experience, I imagine it would be impossible for her to think her father is capable of breaking the corpse of his informant lover's bones in order to be able to fold her into a suitcase. Like, that's not something that could even come close to the universe of what she could think of her father. Paige knows her parents lie about where they go and who they are, and obfuscate the truth, she knows they have false identities because they're actually Russians pretending to be Americans, but she doesn't have any frame of reference for believing they hurt people the way they do.  When they start opening up to her about their real lives, they talk to her about their childhoods. They tell her about their own parents, and what life was like growing up in the Soviet Union in the immediate aftermath of WWII. Those stories are true. When they start telling her about spying, it is an extreme obfuscation of the truth. they tell her initially that it's all about forming relationships with people so that they become sympathetic and trust you enough to willfully give you information. The impression they give her of spying is super benign, and they flat out, unequivocally deny that they would hurt anyone. And they're master manipulators. Paige is entirely out of her depth with them as their young daughter, with her lifetime of that relationship informing what she can or cannot believe about them. In the show, Martha's dad absolutely, flatly refuses to believe his daughter is capable of willfully committing treason, in spite of all the evidence, and that same sort of mentality is at work with Paige's inability to comprehend or even consider the terrible things her parents do, and that's with no evidence. It happens in RL too, with the families of people who are convicted of things like rape or assault or whatever, absolutely refusing to believe someone they've loved their whole lives could have actually done something so terrible, and all it takes is for the convict to maintain their innocence in order for their families to believe them and make up their own conspiracy theories or victim blame for why the innocent person they love is in jail. Humans just do not believe the people they love on such  a fundamental level are capable of evil.

What Paige learns about her parents' lives as spies is an extremely gradual unveiling, because they are extremely careful in how they choose to tell her things and they manipulate and obfuscate constantly, while also mixing in genuine truth that is benign, like when they talk about their pasts. She believes them because she's demanding the truth and they're giving her answers, and because they're her parents and she loves and implicitly trusts them on a deeper level because of that. She only even learns that what they do can be dangerous when her mother kills a mugger in less than a second. And btw, I don't think the mugging itself traumatized her so much as seeing her mother kill someone did. And even that experience wouldn't necessarily lead in a straight line to understanding her mother is a trained killer. Elizabeth was defending her from being attacked. When Paige confronted her about it, that's how her mom framed the action. She was trained to defend herself if she had to. Defense, not offense. And she offers to help and bring Paige further into her world by teaching her self defense. She confides in Paige that she was raped and used to be scared, but now she knows how to defend herself and she's not scared anymore. And from the moment of the mugging to the moment her father nearly strangles her in a chokehold, Paige maintained that original belief that the violence she knew her mother was capable of was solely for self-defense. She had no reason to believe otherwise because her parents always insisted and maintained the story that they didn't hurt people, and as they were letting her in on so much else- their names and American backgrounds come out of stolen identities from people who died young, they sometimes wear disguises and use other fake identities when meeting with sources, they pretend to be friends sometimes with those sources to gain their trust, this kind grandfatherly/motherly old gentleman/lady helps us out with our missions and love you so and we're like family, etc- the idea that they hurt and kill people is not a thought she would jump to on her own. Not about her parents. She beats up the two college guys in the bar, and she has no reason to think she wasn't using the training she received in exactly the manner in which it was intended to be used, because that's the context in which Elizabeth taught it to her. 

The doubts creep in when she actually does independent research of her own into spying by reading the book about KGB tactics, and even then, her focus is on using sex, because she has reason to believe it's something her parents may have used, because they never went out of their way to emphatically deny they used it. And all the ways they're weird about her own sex life add up to something to her. When confronted with the question, Elizabeth initially denies it the same way she denies they hurt people, but even then, has to concede very quickly that there's something to that rumor because she knows a flat general denial is too unbelievable, but she makes sure to assure Paige that she doesn't personally get into that sort of sordid business herself, and the rumors exaggerate the truth.  

With regards to lying, I view Paige as similar to Martha in terms of her ability to lie. She's not a trained liar, but she's capable of telling a convincing lie to protect herself if she has to. Like, there was the EPCOT episode, where Philip and Elizabeth had planned with the Center that Pastor Tim and Alice would be taken out and it made to look like an accident while the family was vacationing in Florida, so that Paige would have no reason to suspect her parents did anything. The trip is abruptly cancelled when Phil and Liz have to spend the weekend quarantined due to glanders exposure. Both Martha and Paige are under pressure to give cover stories to FBI agents during this time, and they don't have Philip or Elizabeth to help them through it. Paige tells Stan her parents had an emergency business trip to New York when a client threatened to fire them, which, by the way, was a way more convincing on-the-fly cover story than the one Philip had for Elizabeth's sudden Thanksgiving absence. She sounded completely believable, even as she was clearly panicking at their disappearance when Stan was gone. Martha lied like an absolute pro to Aderholdt with her having-an-affair-with-a-married-man story, went home, and immediately had a panic attack. For all of season 3 up until she confronted them in the kitchen, Paige successfully hid just how completely freaked out and hurt she was about whatever secret her parents had. I don't think Paige is a bad liar, she just hates lying both doing it herself and receiving it. With Stan in the garage, Paige's initial lie was weak in part I think because it was obvious he already knew the truth. Philip's lie that the car was a loaner was basically just a reflex for him and just as bad as Paige saying she was sick and had a stomachache. It was no more unconvincing than Elizabeth standing like a cat waiting to pounce, with steely death in her eyes looking right at him, when she insisted they came to pick up Paige from work and asked Stan why he was acting this way. They all knew he knew and were almost lying to get the necessary pretense out of the way. Paige stopped lying when that happened because she didn't have to anymore. 

With regards to her academics, I think we don't really have an idea of that. She may be just as gifted as Henry, and we'll just never know, because by the age he started showing promise, she was going through extremely deep identity and ongoing emotional crises and that may very well have distracted her from discovering some sort of academic potential Henry was free to discover. Plus she had to spend all her free time at church rather than develop any new skills or interests. When we see her at college, she seems like a regular student to me, engaged with the subjects she's learning, and I don't think we're supposed to take the information that she goes to George Mason instead of a place like Georgetown as indicative of a lack of intelligence. George Mason is a very good university, and for all we know, Paige did get into Georgetown but decided two exorbitant private school tuitions would be one too much for her parents. We just don't know. But I take Paige's argument with Stan about Robert Bork as an illustration of the type of mind she has. If she can debate Stan on the merits of a Supreme Court nominee, she's learning more than just parroting the information Claudia and the Center want to know. (sidenote, but I love what we see of that argument. Paige doesn't like Bork because he opposed anti-segregation laws and thinks women aren't protected under the 14th Amendment. That is such a subtle character hint to Paige's ultimate Americanness. She's proud of those laws and that amendment. She's passionately concerned with the politics of who gets on the Supreme Court, a part of government that is almost purely domestic and makes decision that only effect Americans. The Centre doesn't give a shit who is on the Supreme Court. Paige is an American progressive, not a Russian communist.)

Anyway, this is getting super long, but rewatching the series, I'm just a lot more sympathetic to Paige than I ever was before, especially when I started considering how her parents look from her perspective. I'm not going to blame her for successfully being manipulated by the world's greatest manipulators, especially given those people are her parents. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Plums said:

She didn't become nearly as involved in the church or the Tims as you referenced until after she had told him about her parents- 

I think my post may be reading a little differently than I meant it out of context. I'm not making any argument that Paige is an idiot, I was responding to the idea that the show tried to tell us that Paige was exceptionally able to handle whatever was thrown at her, exceptionally smart and knowing her mind because her parents have said this. My argument is just that her parents are often unreliable narrators on the subject but if we look at how the show portrays her they don't seem to be trying to show her to be a superstar in any of these fields. I think she's rather portrayed as an ordinary teenager who's a good student and pretty insecure, but who also has times where she's more self-righteous and confident. There are some areas where she's stubborn and strong, but she's also often lost.

I would disagree with this one comment clipped here. Paige didn't need to be at the church all the time before her parents demanded it but she did drop everything else in her life and make the church her life. She started reading the Bible all the time, agreeing with Pastor Tim's view of the world, wanting baptism and the Tims over for dinner for her birthday. Pastor Tim says she gives herself 100 percent and he's right. She even handed over her entire life savings to the church. That's somebody who went all in very quickly. Once she had the church she didn't need or want much else (besides her parents.)  When she had to start keeping the Tims close she spent a ridiculous amount of time at the church but she had already made the place her world.

The show didn't portray her time at the church by showing Paige finding community there. We never hear about friends she has there or fun she's having because she's with friends. On a scene where she's on a bus going to a protest she's sitting by herself. Pastor Tim is the person she focuses on in the church. He's the one with the answers--just as later she focuses on her mother. I think Paige absolutely is drawn to authority figures with the answers, as is her mother. She's drawn to causes and leaders lead the cause.

So I find it hard to not see Paige as someone who wants to be part of a movement and who focuses on the leader of that movement for approval and answers. The show spends 5 out of 6 seasons on her throwing herself wholly into one movement and then moving to another. There are some values that cross over, but also some that conflict. The important relationships she chooses are mostly with authority figures, not peers. To play that down, it seems to me, is to erase a large part of Paige's personality. The church wasn't just one of many mild interests she had before she shared the secret. It showed how open she'd be to recruitment.

Regarding her calling Tim, there again my point isn't to not judge Paige like anything other than a  teenager but the opposite, to say that show doesn't seem to be telling me that she's incredibly good at handling whatever life throws at her because in that moment she reaches out for short-term comfort without understanding or caring about the consequences. This doesn't make Paige a failure, but it's also not showing us that she's a rock who can deal with anything on her own. If the show was trying to insist on that why would they have written that whole story of her being a teenager out of her depth who asked for help?

1 hour ago, Plums said:

And btw, I don't think the mugging itself traumatized her so much as seeing her mother kill someone did.

Sorry, that's also what I meant by the mugging, that she saw Elizabeth kill someone.

1 hour ago, Plums said:

With regards to her academics, I think we don't really have an idea of that. She may be just as gifted as Henry, and we'll just never know, because by the age he started showing promise, she was going through extremely deep identity and ongoing emotional crises and that may very well have distracted her from discovering some sort of academic potential Henry was free to discover.

Here, again I was responding to the idea that the show had hammered on Paige being specifically gifted this way and was just pointing out that imo they never did that. I disagree we have no idea.  Henry was a slacker who didn't like to study or do homework but had outside interests that were sometimes academic beyond school. Then he got interested and was enough of a star that teachers all noticed. Paige was a good student without ever attracting specific attention for it  and her interests tended towards social activism. She chose the church as her entire world herself because that's what interested her, not something else. Her parents seem to be similar in the little we hear about them so there doesn't seem much reason to imagine her being derailed so much in that area. It makes sense that her grades suffered when she was depressed, but it doesn't seem to have been such a change that there was reason to notice it--if there was a big change at all.

1 hour ago, Plums said:

I don't think we're supposed to take the information that she goes to George Mason instead of a place like Georgetown as indicative of a lack of intelligence. George Mason is a very good university, and for all we know, Paige did get into Georgetown but decided two exorbitant private school tuitions would be one too much for her parents.

The show knew they were sending Paige to college in S6 and chose to send her to George Washington, a real university that’s less competitive than Georgetown. (No idea if it’s less expensive.) That’s what that awkward exchange with the boy in the bar refers to when he mistakenly thinks she goes to Georgetown. So either due to lack of ambition, interest or grades, Paige is not placed not at some top level school but at a school that students at those schools might have considered a safety. There’s no other Paige who got into Georgetown but for her parents. This is what the writers thought was more right for Paige.

Which doesn't at all imply that she's an idiot or a terrible student, it's just also not the show taking that obvious opportunity to say she's exceptionally great academically either.

I do think the Bork conversation is Paige showing opinions that are more her own, whatever their influenced by, but then, as you point out, those beliefs aren't really the Soviet ones she's choosing to dedicate her life to instead.

Edited June 18, 2018 by sistermagpie

[companionenvy]

@Plums, thank you for a fantastic post. I especially liked your point that Paige beating up the guys in the bar is actually entirely consistent with Elizabeth's original misrepresentation of her own skills and their purpose. You're also right, I think, that it was reasonable of Paige to buy her parents' claims about what they were doing. As we've discussed at length on other threats, historically, embedded spies like Phil and Liz actually wouldn't have been doubling as assassins; certainly, direct murder is not an inevitable or even typical element of espionage. So it actually did make a lot of sense for Paige to believe that her loving parents were gathering intel via various forms of deception rather than murdering their enemies and the odd innocent old lady. 

Where I part from you, I think, is that I won't extend this justification to S6, by which point she's being trained as a spy herself. While Claudia is clearly there to continue keeping up the warm and fuzzy familial facade, Paige is also going out on missions - and not just casual, risk-free ones. Buying the story about the General committing suicide was bad enough, but even the fact that her mom's work involves breaking into heavily guarded  warehouses in the dead of night should have shattered some of her illusions about what her parents had been up to all these years. Donning a disguise to befriend a source over coffee or taking some surreptitious photos is worlds away from midnight B&Es. At that point, the only thing that can explain her naivete, IMO, is the careful cultivation of willful ignorance. Making it worse is her absolute cluelessness in the conversations about history, which suggests that this naivete isn't limited to the true nature or her mother's work, which is a self-protective gesture, but extends also to a situation in which someone of basic sensitivity and awareness of experiences outside her own should have responded with more tact and less incredulity. 

[Plums]

@sistermagpie

I take your point about the authority figures, even though I still don't interpret it becoming her world to the extent you do, but I see the interpretation, and I especially like the idea that her complete openness to the organization demonstrated her recruitability, but I don't see it as all being about Pastor Tim, even though she admired him greatly. I think she wanted the Tims over for dinner not because she didn't have any other friends but because she was trapping her parents into agreeing to her baptism plan, just like I think she gave all her money to the church in part as a way to lash out at her parents because the church was doing good, and in her mind, she knew that whatever shady shit they were into, it wasn't good. She even yells at them that they don't help anyone when she's fighting with them about it. I know we didn't see her interact with other kids the way we knew Henry was always at some kid's house or another, or at Stan's place, but I still think it was implied she had at least casual friends in the few times we saw her at church or school interacting with other people. It just was never the focus of her drama the way the Tims were after knowing about her parents. And obviously she couldn't form close friendships with people after she knew the truth due to the fact that she was always hiding something so huge about her life. I think that's the real reason why we don't see her interact much with people besides the Tims post phone call. And it's explored with her subplot with Matthew. She wants to form a genuine connection with a boy she likes like a normal teenage girl, but she just can't because of the lies she has to live. It's not necessarily about being consumed by a desire to connect to authority figures.

And was it George Washington and not George Mason? nevermind then about public vs private. no wonder Philip was having so many money problems. 

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Plums said:

She beats up the two college guys in the bar, and she has no reason to think she wasn't using the training she received in exactly the manner in which it was intended to be used, because that's the context in which Elizabeth taught it to her. 

Sorry, I missed this part. I mostly agree with your take on the way Paige has good reason to believe that her parents aren't killing people and sleeping around, and that her parents only use their skills for self-defense, but in this case I don't think it applies. If it was just a case of Paige knowing self-defense and using it to not get attacked than yes, that's exactly the right context.

But the fight in the bar happens when Paige is already working as a spy and knows she's got a cover she's supposed to be keeping. (She also wasn't acting entirely in self-defense, even.) She knows her parents hide these skills from other people. This basic concept is beyond telling herself that her parents only kill people in self-defense. It doesn't even have the same emotional motivation. She doesn't seem confused about why her parents have a problem with what she did, she just doesn't seem to understand how careful she needs to be--and this is one area where it really doesn't seem like her parents are keeping her in the dark.

37 minutes ago, Plums said:

I don't see it as all being about Pastor Tim, even though she admired him greatly. I think she wanted the Tims over for dinner not because she didn't have any other friends but because she was trapping her parents into agreeing to her baptism plan, just like I think she gave all her money to the church in part as a way to lash out at her parents because the church was doing good, and in her mind, she knew that whatever shady shit they were into, it wasn't good.

Oh, I agree. I don't think it was just about Pastor Tim personally--I think he represented the cause and what she wanted to say about herself and have her parents respect. But I do also think that there was a point being made that Paige was attracted to the Cause, represented by Pastor Tim, more than the other people in the church who were friends. She wasn't a friendless girl who finally found friends in the church. She was a basically socially normal girl who was inspired by the ideas of the church--social activism, Jesus as role model, baptism, God. She seemed to get along just fine with people at church--the other kids in the youth group, etc. But they're not the reason she loves the church. She's not reluctant to leave it because of them.

I do think she sees the two things as related, that once she starts really wanting a close relationship (like her mother has with Philip, for instance) the cause will help her find that. (And that she can't have that when she's separated from people by the secret.) But when she got drawn to the church it was never put into the context of her finding a place where she had friends where she didn't before. Had she not had the secret dropped on her she might have found a boyfriend in the youth group and stayed a Christian and been perfectly happy.

I do, though, think that she liked the community there in general because it was so made up of normal, regular people who didn't have dark secrets like her parents. It was a place where she could talk to other kids who were also disturbed by their parents' behavior and didn't want to be like them. I do think that just being a member or part of a cause might make her feel less alone whether or not there are specific people she's close to there. And I think the world of the church was a draw in general--certainly in a way the world of spying and the USSR never were. She might still have outgrown it, but we'll never know.

Edited June 18, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Erin9]

I’ve often thought one problem with Paige is that she probably needed to just be shut down regarding exactly what they did- at least until she decided to get into spying - which was a problem for many reasons. (Realistically, that they felt pushed to tell her anything was unfortunate. But I got why they did. And I suspect the centre’s patience would have run out anyway.) In this case not telling Paige what they actually did as spies on any level was easier said than done though. More on that to come. 

Most kids of spies probably don’t know their parents are spies and if they do- they sure don’t have a clue what they do. Nor should they. Spying is- at best- a dirty, ugly, dark - yet absolutely necessary- business.There are also obviously national security reasons for them to be clueless. 

Problem was- P/E were in a precarious place with her from the moment they told the truth. They were trying to keep her in line and telling her a sanitized version of the truth/lies to try and keep her quiet. And Paige thought she needed and wanted to know all- so she kept asking questions. As far as killing was concerned, they generally were killing as a form of self defense. I have trouble faulting how P/E handled the aftermath of Paige finding out though. They were in a horrible position with Paige, and they knew it. 

That Paige needed to really get the reality of the spy business when she decided to spy is another matter. But- the centre should have shut that down. Gabriel saw the train wreck. Paige was unsuited to spying and expecting Elizabeth to train her properly was just never realistically going to end well.

The centre bungled every single aspect of this 2nd gen program. I get why they liked the idea, but it was unrealistic for many reasons: get these kids to really be more Russian than American. Really be passionate about a country they’d never been to. Assume they had any aptitude for spying OR the ability to handle the dark side of it. Put the parents in the position of training, evaluating and truth telling. Sure. Great idea.....Very thoughtless. 

I’ve watched a little of Madam Secretary, where the title character was ex- CIA. They briefly dealt with her daughter somehow finding out about one of the darker areas of spying that her mom had some involvement in. Eventually- she just moved on, I forget why exactly. 

[Plums]

3 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

They were in a horrible position with Paige, and they knew it. 

That Paige needed to really get the reality of the spy business when she decided to spy is another matter. But- the centre should have shut that down. Gabriel saw the train wreck. Paige was unsuited to spying and expecting Elizabeth to train her properly was just never realistically going to end well.

The centre bungled every single aspect of this 2nd gen program. I get why they liked the idea, but it was unrealistic for many reasons: get these kids to really be more Russian than American. Really be passionate about a country they’d never been to. Assume they had any aptitude for spying OR the ability to handle the dark side of it. Put the parents in the position of training, evaluating and truth telling. Sure. Great idea.....Very thoughtless. 

 

oh yeah, I think it was super obvious that we were supposed to see the entire 2nd Gen spies program as a complete trainwreck of an idea. As William said "Our bosses don't know what they're doing". They're sitting in Moscow and thinking purely theoretically, then ordering the implementations of those theories with no regard to the human realities on the ground. They wanted 2nd Gen spies so that natural born American citizens who could pass a background check would be able to infiltrate the government in ways illegals couldn't. What a great idea! Here's a thought- instead of recruiting kids who have been raised in a pointedly apolitical environment because their parents need to maintain a cover of being totally bland, regular, middle class Americans, and whose minds and hearts would be shaken to the core to find out their whole lives are lies, why don't you get American kids in college who are politically active and would be open to the mission? That entire idea that the kids of their officers are really just as Soviet Russian as their parents are, that they belong to the State and The Cause in the same way their parents do, is so delusional. Even before Paige was told the truth, when Philip and Elizabeth were fighting about it, Elizabeth framed telling her in terms of "She'll find out who she really is" rather than her finding out how her parents had been lying to her her whole life. 

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Plums said:

Even before Paige was told the truth, when Philip and Elizabeth were fighting about it, Elizabeth framed telling her in terms of "She'll find out who she really is" rather than her finding out how her parents had been lying to her her whole life. 

Yes, I always loved that Elizabeth talked about Paige finding out who she is when she really meant that Paige would find out who Elizabeth was.

The 2nd Gen program really was a trainwreck--and seems to even fizzle out in Moscow since they never get around to Henry. I used to never understand why P&E felt the need to ask some of Paige's more specific questions about what they were doing. I didn't get why they didn't just say she didn't have security clearance. I understood why they told her the main secret when she laid it out because that was clearly a turning point that came down to whether they respected her enough to stop lying to her.

But then they got into this thing of giving her some details ("He's meeting with a what we call a source...") with a white-washed version of what that meant ("It's getting people to trust you..."). There again I think they were also screwed up because they wanted their kids to accept them but also knew they wouldn't, really. That's most extreme when Elizabeth is training Paige as a spy while still trying to keep her in this white washed place where she'll have a career in the State Department and never have to do anything ugly and never find out that Elizabeth kills innocents or sleeps with anyone besides Philip. But I think even in the past they had these impulses of wanting her to accept them. I especially think of Philip wanting to tell her about the non-existent wheat plot. That was the last time he really believed he could be doing something good and he thought Paige would understand it. Once it turned out to be a lie...nobody filled Paige in.

So it's like they were both in this place where they wanted Paige to understand what they were trying to do while also knowing she wouldn't be okay with a lot of the murder, emotional abuse and manipulation and sex. I think even when Philip is trying to give Paige more truth he's reluctant to shove the truth completely in her face. Elizabeth's final speech in Jennings, Elizabeth is really cathartic that way. Paige gets to lay out her disgust with actual things Elizabeth does and Elizabeth gets to defend herself. It's hard to say exactly how Paige reacts to what Elizabeth says, but she doesn't have a reply. She probably thought Elizabeth would be shamed by her accusations saying she's a whore and painting a picture of Elizabeth sleeping around when she was a baby. Instead Elizabeth gets on an even higher horse.

[Plums]

Yup. I think we're in agreement totally on the entire 2nd Gen plot and how inevitably screwed everyone was in terms of what was told and withheld. 

Switching gears a bit, I'm really into this idea I know you're into that Paige is utterly fascinated by her parents' marriage, and that what she really wants personally, more than anything else, is a relationship with the same kind of insane intimacy and trust she knows they have. Because you're so into the idea, I was wondering if you knew this and could help me- I am looking for a super brief moment, and I cannot for the life of me remember what episode it was in or the context surrounding it. Paige and Henry walk in the front door where Philip and Elizabeth were standing together and had obviously been embracing before the kids came in. Paige sees them when she comes in and looks down with this smile on her face. Do you know where that is?

[companionenvy]

4 hours ago, Plums said:

oh yeah, I think it was super obvious that we were supposed to see the entire 2nd Gen spies program as a complete trainwreck of an idea.

I think you're right, of course, but I don't think - at least in Paige's case -- it had to be such a trainwreck if they'd had more realistic ambitions for the program. Cultivating an in-the-know source (as opposed to coaxing information and access from ignorant patsies) is always a risk. Whether you're blackmailing someone into giving you intel or exploiting misplaced idealism or appealing to their greed or ego or loneliness, there are always going to be any number of countervailing pressures that might lead the person to turn on you. That risk is there with a second-gen spy as well, but there's more time to mold them into a devotee of the cause, more of an incentive for them to stay loyal, and more of an opportunity to play a long game in which you maneuver them into strategically valuable positions.

The problem was that they weren't treating Paige as an ordinary asset/source. They were treating her as a trainee spy. While they gave lip service to the idea that she was going to get a cushy office job and not have to be the second coming of Elizabeth Jennings, they were obviously training her to do more than they would have expected a high-level asset to do. Which is where they, ran up against the fact that Paige didn't have any particular talent for that line of work. 

[Plums]

21 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

The problem was that they weren't treating Paige as an ordinary asset/source. They were treating her as a trainee spy. While they gave lip service to the idea that she was going to get a cushy office job and not have to be the second coming of Elizabeth Jennings, they were obviously training her to do more than they would have expected a high-level asset to do. Which is where they, ran up against the fact that Paige didn't have any particular talent for that line of work. 

I don't feel like Paige showed a particular lack of talent, but rather her missteps illustrated Elizabeth's own extreme blindness to the reality of the situation due to Paige being her daughter that she is desperate to connect to. Paige made a huge mistake by not being able to control the interaction with the Naval Security Creep, but I think the real fault lies mostly with Elizabeth for Paige being there in the first place. Elizabeth being the one to train her led to a whitewashing of the details of the job that no one else involved on a surveillance team would get and being blind to Paige's inexperience because she wanted Paige with her on her own missions, which were probably too high level for Paige to be a part of, and which obviously cause a huge problem when something unexpectedly dangerous happens, like a gun going off, and Paige is not able to react professionally as part of a surveillance team because her mother may have just been shot and killed. 

What she should have been doing if she wanted to train Paige is what we saw her doing when she was training Hans (who also made a huge mistake as a newb, btw).  She just walked with him around the city teaching him surveillance, and to get really, professionally good at it would take a really long time. I think that for a theoretical 2nd Gen spy working in the CIA or State Department, knowing how to suss out a surveillance detail and how and when to break off from a meet or to shake them in an unsuspicious way would be crucial. I don't fault Elizabeth for thinking Paige needs to know counter surveillance. But Paige should have just been shadowing Marilyn or someone else on the team. Marilyn was more objective than Elizabeth and told her she thought "Julie" was too young for some of the missions Elizabeth wanted to include her on, but Elizabeth didn't want to see that because Paige is her daughter, and there's always been a lot of projection and delusion there on Elizabeth's part. The only time Elizabeth knew Paige couldn't handle something is when she wanted Stan followed, and that was probably more to do with the fact that she didn't want Paige to know one of her operations was targeting Stan as much as it was about recognizing the danger of someone at Paige's level tailing a trained FBI Agent and the possibility that Stan would see and recognize her. 

I tend to agree with Philip that Paige was capable, but that Elizabeth was going too far and putting her life in danger. Paige should have been learning about signals and dead drops and counter surveillance tactics outside of actual missions. Elizabeth had no business taking her on operations if the goal was to keep her safe. 

[companionenvy]

1 hour ago, Plums said:

I don't feel like Paige showed a particular lack of talent, but rather her missteps illustrated Elizabeth's own extreme blindness to the reality of the situation due to Paige being her daughter that she is desperate to connect to.

The latter was certainly an element, but I agree with sistermagpie that the show seemed to be going out of its way to suggest that Paige wasn't actually cut out for spying. I also don't think we're supposed to believe that Elizabeth is unilaterally placing absurd expectations on her. Claudia seems to know what Paige is getting up to, and while Marilyn just says that "Julie" is too young, I think that's something of a smokescreen. People Paige's age and younger fight in wars every day; the problem isn't that she is theoretically too young to be on a stakeout or drive a getaway car, but that she obviously hasn't impressed Marilyn with a sense of competence. Hans's mistakes could plausibly be chalked up to inexperience; Paige's, especially the ID situation, reveals to me a more fundamental failure - and even Elizabeth it, for a moment, seems to recognize it as such.

Paige actually did display some capacity for the kind of skills an asset (not a full-fledged agent) might need prior to S5. After she (understandably, I think), makes the terrible mistake of telling Pastor Tim about her parents, she then manages to essentially "work" him and Alice for a year or so; while we learn from Tim's journal that he remains worried about her, she apparently does a good enough job of convincing them that she's still committed to the church and to their family, specifically, without them getting a whiff of ulterior motives. She then takes the initiative in reading and taking photos of the diary, apparently being careful enough that he doesn't notice someone has been poking around where they shouldn't have been. Granting that being able to take some photos of a youth pastor's diary is not a major achievement, it still suggests to me a certain instinct that could be plausibly developed into higher-stakes espionage. Similarly, while Stan does at some point realize that something is off about Paige, she apparently recovers sufficiently to continue acting normally enough in his orbit - and IIRC, there is one scene, maybe while Paige is involved with Matthew, in which Paige gives an unsolicited "report" to her parents about something pertinent involving Stan's schedule. 

So again, I'd say that Paige might have been effective as a high-placed asset. I agree that it still would have been useful for her to learn some more advanced spycraft, but realistically, that's actually not an advantage that most assets would have. Consider Martha. While she was a dupe for most of her relationship with Philip, in effect she was doing the kinds of things that a hypothetical Paige-in-the-State-Department might have been doing - planting bugs, making copies of reports, giving information on the activities of the people she worked with. And Martha, of course, didn't have any kind of real training; Philip gave her some tips as needed about how to strategically do what she needed to do without attracting suspicion, but she obviously wasn't a pro. And was still able to be an valuable asset for some time, and would have lasted longer if not for the microtransmitter being found. So even if Paige never became great at the ins and outs of how to escape a tail, I think she could have been OK as a hopefully even better-placed and more aware version of Martha. This would have been extremely useful for the KGB and justified their sense of the usefulness of the second gen program without falling into the pie-in-the-sky delusion that Paige was going to be anything like a fully functioning operative - which I maintain we saw she wasn't suited for.

[Plums]

I think where we differ is that I was never under the impression Paige was ever supposed to be an operative on the same level as Elizabeth, but that Elizabeth was mistakenly trying to push her more into that while simultaneously trying to protect her from the realities of that, which just screwed it all up. It certainly felt like Paige never had a handle on exactly the kind of spy she was supposed to be. 

My whole understanding of the folly of the 2nd Gen illegals program is that what the Center wanted to do with them would have much much easier to achieve by recruiting a pre-existing American true believer, but they were blinded by their perspective that the kids of their officers were Russian nationals and belonged to the State in the same way all the other citizens do, completely dismissing the reality of the situation that the kids do not and cannot identify that way due to their upbringings. 

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, Plums said:

Switching gears a bit, I'm really into this idea I know you're into that Paige is utterly fascinated by her parents' marriage, and that what she really wants personally, more than anything else, is a relationship with the same kind of insane intimacy and trust she knows they have. Because you're so into the idea, I was wondering if you knew this and could help me- I am looking for a super brief moment, and I cannot for the life of me remember what episode it was in or the context surrounding it. Paige and Henry walk in the front door where Philip and Elizabeth were standing together and had obviously been embracing before the kids came in. Paige sees them when she comes in and looks down with this smile on her face. Do you know where that is?

Heh--I do love that idea! I think you might be thinking of the premiere of S2 when Elizabeth has just come back from being shot. There's definitely a moment at the end of a scene where Philip kisses Elizabeth and Henry says, "Gross!" and goes upstairs but Paige smiles broadly at them kissing. That's presumably partly about them being back together when they had been separated, but I think she's also pleased by the whole romantic nature. Of course, later in that episode she gets a little too much of that when she opens their bedroom door, so that's another great little metaphor.

 

2 hours ago, Plums said:

What she should have been doing if she wanted to train Paige is what we saw her doing when she was training Hans (who also made a huge mistake as a newb, btw).  She just walked with him around the city teaching him surveillance, and to get really, professionally good at it would take a really long time. I think that for a theoretical 2nd Gen spy working in the CIA or State Department, knowing how to suss out a surveillance detail and how and when to break off from a meet or to shake them in an unsuspicious way would be crucial. I don't fault Elizabeth for thinking Paige needs to know counter surveillance. But Paige should have just been shadowing Marilyn or someone else on the team. Marilyn was more objective than Elizabeth and told her she thought "Julie" was too young for some of the missions Elizabeth wanted to include her on, but Elizabeth didn't want to see that because Paige is her daughter, and there's always been a lot of projection and delusion there on Elizabeth's part. 

I think, though, that the idea was that Paige had been through all that already. She was at the point where Hans was when he started doing surveillance and Philip even said he thought he did a good job at that. They relied on him pretty regularly and trusted him. He did make a big mistake when he was seen by that other guy, but in general he'd become someone they had no trouble counting on on the job. Plus, of course, when he makes that big mistake Elizabeth fires him. He only comes back because he, on his own, took care of the problem. With Paige Elizabeth does the opposite--she takes it on herself to get the ID back, doesn't even tell Paige the truth about the incident and later keeps Paige on the job after she does something that in Elizabeth's own words would have gotten anybody else fired.

There's a couple of times where Paige says things that show she's had training already, like when she describes the sailor and says she was waiting to start her shift a mile outside the zone or when she reports everything her professor said about weapons to Claudia, so I took it as Paige having completed the training we saw the end of with Hans during those 3 years and now she's supposed to be ready for work. Being on missions was Paige being treated like a regular recruit. During the time jump she did the stuff where she listed the people she saw on the street, etc. 

17 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Claudia seems to know what Paige is getting up to, and while Marilyn just says that "Julie" is too young, I think that's something of a smokescreen.

Yes, when she said that I took it as Marilyn trying to diplomatically voice concerns she'd had for a while about Julie in general. I wouldn't be surprised if she'd noticed that Elizabeth favored her--maybe even wondered if she was her daughter--and that's why she wasn't more harsh about it. Elizabeth's response to Marilyn seems to hint at that--she says something like "I've got a good feeling about her." Like obviously she likes her personally and wants her there for reasons other than her being good at this.

It fits with the situation they're in where it seems like Paige is upset about the sailor and wants to talk to Elizabeth about it. Marilyn doesn't seem to know what happened but she knows something went wrong with Julie.

19 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Hans's mistakes could plausibly be chalked up to inexperience; Paige's, especially the ID situation, reveals to me a more fundamental failure - and even Elizabeth it, for a moment, seems to recognize it as such.

Yeah, to me it seemed like they chose things that were intentionally meant to be huge red flags. The biggest of all, in fact, is her getting the soldier's name wrong. Apparently that's one of the first things that would get someone rejected from fieldwork. It's the most basic skill you'd need to have. So it's like buried in the bigger drama of losing the ID is this much bigger bombshell that she looked at a name for a long time and made two mistakes in it not long after. That's even the thing Elizabeth mentions to Philip--who instinctively defends her, but probably would have been far more concerned if he actually understood the circumstances (and certainly if it wasn't Paige). (Iow, Paige didn't miss one name in a long list she looked at quickly.) 

When Philip does get a clearer idea of one of her mistakes--when she talks about fist-fighting two guys in a crowded bar where she's a regular--he goes a bit ashen. But in his own way he's just as blinded about Paige as Elizabeth is--though I think both of them are starting to get a clue as the season progresses. If they were getting along better maybe they would have been better about it earlier.

24 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

So again, I'd say that Paige might have been effective as a high-placed asset.

Yes, I think she still would have ultimately been miserable in that life because it's lonely and she'd be lying to everyone (and she doesn't really have a good reason to be sacrificing her life for this). Perhaps that would wear on her more quickly than it would wear on some people, I don't know. But this seems to be the life that Elizabeth wants to imagine for her, one where she's herself all the time, lives a regular life, but just repeats and copies things that she shouldn't and tells them to someone else. It would still require a lot from her--just like with Martha she'd sometimes have to lie or look innocent or slip in and out with a bug or copy things as if nothing's up. 

In a way Paige is like that Jackson kid who's expected to work in his father's company. She doesn't get into this because she has her own passion for the Cause or anything that would make a professional spymaker notice her at all (like her parents would have had). Plus she has a very warped perspective on not only what she's doing but what the danger is and what the stakes are. 

5 minutes ago, Plums said:

I think where we differ is that I was never under the impression Paige was ever supposed to be an operative on the same level as Elizabeth, but that Elizabeth was mistakenly trying to push her more into that while simultaneously trying to protect her from the realities of that, which just screwed it all up. It certainly felt like Paige never had a handle on exactly the kind of spy she was supposed to be. 

 

I think that's a confusion on the show as well, but that she *is* supposed to be learning this stuff. It's really mostly Elizabeth herself who clings to the idea that she's just going to be working 9 to 5 and passing on info. Even though she's bringing her along on dirtier missions. 

 

9 minutes ago, Plums said:

My whole understanding of the folly of the 2nd Gen illegals program is that what the Center wanted to do with them would have much much easier to achieve by recruiting a pre-existing American true believer, but they were blinded by their perspective that the kids of their officers were Russian nationals and belonged to the State in the same way all the other citizens do, completely dismissing the reality of the situation that the kids do not and cannot identify that way due to their upbringings. 

I think that was definitely part of the issue. I remember there was a time where people seemed to feel that Philip could recruit Kimmy instead of Paige as if the Centre was just demanding a child sacrifice from them but it was more like they just saw their own kids as automatically potential assets--or even more than that. 

But I think we can say for sure that the kind of work Paige is doing in S6 isn't just Elizabeth's idea. Neither Claudia nor Philip think she's going against the plan by doing it. What's funny is how everyone seems to treat the great career Paige is supposed to have as her cover as an afterthought. Just go apply for an internship at the State Department and any day now you'll be Secretary of Defense! In reality Paige might very well have wound up in a mid-level job that would therefore necessitate her having to take more risks to get classified info.

[Umbelina]

I think the writers just finally, in the very last season wrote a Paige that was very similar to the actress.

No nuance at all, a VERY young, immature, normal kid, who didn't read, didn't examine, and simply accepted whatever the current "hero" in her life said.  First Father Tim, then Mommy.

In other hands, Paige could have been quite different, but the actress simply wasn't capable of complicated or of emoting complicated emotions without words, or with them.  I've imagined Paige in the hands of more nuanced actresses her age, and there have been many who could have made this role so compelling when they were exactly Holly Taylor's age.  It's a very long list.

Paige was always going to not go to Russia, Philip and Elizabeth were always going to leave without either child, as the writers have made perfectly clear, they knew their ending at the end of the first season.  What they didn't know was how to write Paige, because I believe that what they wanted simply wasn't coming across on screen, so they coped with it by writing her as even more stupid, more naive, more self-centered this season, and threw in the more believable story that she SUCKED at spying.  She couldn't even maintain her cover, or get a name right.  They FINALLY went with what they had, instead of trying to make a chocolate souffle without eggs.  The pre-planned ending would have worked just as well, perhaps better, if Paige was believably intelligent, read newspapers, was good at spying but in the end rejected the USSR anyway.

They couldn't, or rather, she didn't pull off "intelligent" so they just switched that part.

In the end though, it's not Holly Taylor's fault.  She's a kid, her eyes don't express emotion, she's not precocious, and it's the writing that was more than half of the problem with her character.  She "can't lie!" Over and over again, they've had Paige talking about this.  Yet then they show her lying after visiting her Aunt, lying after the hitchhiking, lying about spying.  Again, in more nuanced hands, that lying would have been difficult for her, at least guilt would have played on her face later when alone, or a hand would be clenched, something!

Father Tim story, which was unbelievable, was also boring.  The KGB ordered "make Paige a spy" SHOULD have been interesting, but it simply was not, partially because of the actresses limitations, which were especially evident because the rest of the cast was simply amazing, while she was, at best, adequate. 

Still, the writing made things much worse, they were all over the map with her, and with this story. 

I've detailed the problems with this finale, which aren't simply about the finale, but also about ALL of the lead ins to it, especially season 5 and season 6 stories.  Sticking simply to Paige since this is her thread?  The main problems with the finale for Paige are:

• The FBI will get the truth out of her, one way or another, and they won't be the only ones involved from the government.  This is a huge deal, Aderholt won't even be involved, let alone Stan.
• She's facing prison, has no money, has no place to live, so perhaps drinking that vodka was her best current option.
• Her impact on Stan's story, which gives him nothing but bleak and disaster.
• They didn't have to make her an accomplice to murders.

Holly Taylor's best scenes were in season 3, when she was bratty, screaming accusations, furious, ignoring her parent's warnings about how secret the news of their spying had to be.  She was believable in those, maybe because the emotions were OTT, so easier to access.  The issue was always lack of the subtle, and especially because her on-screen parents EXCELLED at that, as did every other actor on screen.

She's filming a horror movie now, lots of screaming.  She'll probably be very good in that.  I could also see her doing light comedy quite well.  She'd also make a perfect Squeaky Fromme if they remake the Manson story, a true believer who never doubted him, and would do anything for him, requires no nuance or self awareness.  This just wasn't a show suited to her abilities.  So discussing the character Paige is one of those things where everyone is right and everyone is wrong at the same time.  Yes, they tried to portray her as smart, as committed to causes, and yes, they finally portrayed her as stupid, and committed to self.  Both things are true, because the writers struggled and failed with this actress in this role, and with their writing.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Umbelina

[SusanSunflower]

Quote

Still, the writing made things much worse, they were all over the map with her (Paige), and with this story. 

But none of it was interesting except as meta -- talking about what the writers intended and/or where they wanted the story and Paige to go .... my eyes glaze over ....  and "meta" took over the show .... Elizabeth and Paige doing stuff, having adventures, even talking about them might be interesting .... talking "meta" about the nuances of their relationship, not really.  The missions became interchangeable and forgettable with more meta about Paige's clean-hands and clear conscience. 

FWIW:  I thought the twin anvils wrt the nerve agent and the bad intelligence over the wheat were going to reverberate and really color EVERYTHING as doubt wormed its way into P&E relationship with the Center and Claudia .... long before the coup and the summitt ... no such luck ...

eta:  So much Paige might have worked if it had been balanced with more meat in that sandwich. For those already annoyed, it felt provocatively tone-deaf. 

Edited June 18, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Pink-n-Green]

What is your opinion on the Paige/Claudia relationship?  Claudia seemed to be very fond of Paige, but do you think that was an act to try to bring her into the fold?  I *THINK* I remember Claudia saying something rather snotty to Elizabeth regarding her "American children", but I can't remember for sure.

[Umbelina]

In my opinion, Claudia probably saw Paige as a Flibbertigibbet, and even though Elizabeth was constantly lying to her about Paige's "progress" knew that Paige would never be a dedicated communist, but might, against all odds, make a useful idiot for the KGB to use.  I'd bet she couldn't stand her, and had a hard time not smacking her when she laughed at Claudia's starvation causing her to sell her body for food.  To Claudia, as she pretty much said at the end, she was just another American kid.  I'd bet good money that wasn't a compliment.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Umbelina

[Plums]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Heh--I do love that idea! I think you might be thinking of the premiere of S2 when Elizabeth has just come back from being shot. There's definitely a moment at the end of a scene where Philip kisses Elizabeth and Henry says, "Gross!" and goes upstairs but Paige smiles broadly at them kissing. That's presumably partly about them being back together when they had been separated, but I think she's also pleased by the whole romantic nature. Of course, later in that episode she gets a little too much of that when she opens their bedroom door, so that's another great little metaphor.

 

I went back and watched it! It's super cute, but not the moment I was thinking of, though thank you for reminding me of it all the same!

I actually went scouring for it earlier and found it! It's early on in 4x11, just after Elizabeth finished destroying Don's life and she's super upset about it. Philip hugs her to comfort her, and then they break apart as the kids walk in, but it's obvious they had just been holding each other. Henry is oblivious, but Paige notices and looks down with this little smile at it. It's a very subtle moment, but the image just stuck with me. 

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Pink-n-Green said:

What is your opinion on the Paige/Claudia relationship?  Claudia seemed to be very fond of Paige, but do you think that was an act to try to bring her into the fold?  I *THINK* I remember Claudia saying something rather snotty to Elizabeth regarding her "American children", but I can't remember for sure.

I was just thinking about that today, for some reason, about what their relationship was like. I thought Claudia was mostly completely professional--her whole grandmotherly attitude was professional. Claudia's personal feelings were all for Elizabeth. So I didn't think she was really that deeply fond of Paige--she probably doesn't get too close to people easily--but she did probably enjoy having a young woman who liked her vs. her grandchildren that it seemed she couldn't click with. I do think that last line about what Elizabeth has left (her American children) shows that Claudia didn't have a special attachment to Paige or think she had some great magical understanding that other Americans didn't have. She was fine without her. I think she probably saw the whole time that Elizabeth was trying to hold onto her through the work and that Paige was trying to bond with her mother as well.

In fact, I'll bet as an officer Claudia saw just how eager Paige was to please the two of them and saw her as vulnerable because how could she not? I honestly don't remember any conversations where Claudia says anything about Paige's potential or future career except the one where Elizabeth talks about how "different" her career will be from Elizabeth's.

3 hours ago, Plums said:

I went back and watched it! It's super cute, but not the moment I was thinking of, though thank you for reminding me of it all the same!

I actually went scouring for it earlier and found it! It's early on in 4x11, just after Elizabeth finished destroying Don's life and she's super upset about it. Philip hugs her to comfort her, and then they break apart as the kids walk in, but it's obvious they had just been holding each other. Henry is oblivious, but Paige notices and looks down with this little smile at it. It's a very subtle moment, but the image just stuck with me. 

I'm so glad you found it! Now that you describe it I do know just what you mean--and I just watched the scene too. Yes, they hold their hug and when they turn around the kids are already inside and Paige is sort of smiling and looking away, not in embarrassment, really, but more like she caught the private moment and it's a little awkward but not in a bad way. I do think she smiles a little because she likes it. Paige is more aware of things going on with her parents than Henry not just in terms of spying but she's also catching their affection for each other.

If she'd even heard about that wedding she would have plotzed.

When I was thinking about times where she shows interest in it I realized that I think one of the first times she specifically brings up the subject in that way is in S1 when Philip and Elizabeth are separated and Paige is talking about Matthew not being interested in her. Elizabeth encourages her to think she can get him if she tries and Paige says she doesn't want to play games--if he's not into her he's not into her. (Very consistent, really--and at the time I thought it sort of echoed Philip moving out of the house and just saying away until Elizabeth asked him back.) I remember Elizabeth says something about how sometimes when people look at others they see what they want to see and Paige asks if that's what happened with her and Dad--did Elizabeth see something that wasn't there and that's why they're separated? And Elizabeth says no, it was there.

This is partly why I honestly don't get the sense of any change of direction with Paige in the last season. It seems like she was always in a coming of age story trying to fold the spy revelation into what she wants in her personal life, which include honesty, intimacy, not being alone and being a force for good in the world.

It's funny, actually, I just recently was reading an article where someone was talking about how sometimes there are certain phrases in a language that say something about the people. The person writing it was Hungarian and was talking about learning English and how this kind of cultural understanding made her English much better. One of the phrases she listed was "make a difference." She said that was such a stock phrase in English--probably especially American English--because it's such an American concept and it didn't really exist in a lot of other language. Paige and her parents kind of exemplify it. Paige, as an American, believes that she can Make A Difference as an individual (and as part of something bigger than herself). Philip and Elizabeth see themselves are just "proud to do whatever they can" along with everyone else in the country.

Edited June 19, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Erin9]

13 hours ago, Umbelina said:

In my opinion, Claudia probably saw Paige as a Flibbertigibbet, and even though Elizabeth was constantly lying to her about Paige's "progress" knew that Paige would never be a dedicated communist, but might, against all odds, make a useful idiot for the KGB to use.  I'd bet she couldn't stand her, and had a hard time not smacking her when she laughed at Claudia's starvation causing her to sell her body for food.  To Claudia, as she pretty much said at the end, she was just another American kid.  I'd bet good money that wasn't a compliment.

Claudia calling Elizabeth’s kids American was absolutely not a compliment. It was an accurate statement, and it was also a way of saying the nastiest thing she could to Elizabeth at that moment. She wanted to stick it to Elizabeth for not being Claudia. First she rips into how she ruined everything, threw everything she’d (Elizabeth herself) worked for down the drain....and sums it up that she has nothing left but a house, American kids and Philip. Which in Claudia’s eyes wasn’t much. Because Claudia only deeply valued the country. And if you didn’t agree with Claudia on how the country should look and what should be done to get it there - you didn’t know what you were doing, were a traitor, etc. 

As for Paige. Claudia didn’t have an emotional connection with her,  but IA with @sistermagpie that she may well have liked being around a young woman who liked being around her, unlike her own family. I doubt she saw Paige as super special, but I think she saw that she had some uses. 

[Erin9]

13 hours ago, Plums said:

I went back and watched it! It's super cute, but not the moment I was thinking of, though thank you for reminding me of it all the same!

I actually went scouring for it earlier and found it! It's early on in 4x11, just after Elizabeth finished destroying Don's life and she's super upset about it. Philip hugs her to comfort her, and then they break apart as the kids walk in, but it's obvious they had just been holding each other. Henry is oblivious, but Paige notices and looks down with this little smile at it. It's a very subtle moment, but the image just stuck with me. 

I vaguely remember that. I will have to re- watch. It sounds cute. 

This may belong elsewhere, but Henry being oblivious seems typical of him. He never was interested in his parents that much. Not that he’s unobservant, but he mostly really focuses when what’s going on impacts him very directly. His half asleep “I don’t care” always stuck with me regarding where his parents were/what they were doing. He just wasn’t curious or overly engaged if it didn’t impact him- ie- leaving their hockey game to talk to Paige, Thanksgiving, or commenting that dad was unlikely to watch the TV program he was excited about because he wasn’t around much (right when Martha left), etc. Which made him imo a pretty typical kid. (I imagine his lack of fascination with his parents is over now though.)

I tend to think Paige was a bit atypical in her overwhelming curiosity, focus on her parents, all consuming need to know. Not that I think her liking that her parents were obviously close/getting along  is unusual by any means. Especially after the S1 split. Though sometimes she saw more than she wanted! Lol 

[Pink-n-Green]

19 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Of course, later in that episode she gets a little too much of that when she opens their bedroom door, so that's another great little metaphor.

That scene the next morning when Paige saw a breakfast sausage and winced was hilarious!

11 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It's funny, actually, I just recently was reading an article where someone was talking about how sometimes there are certain phrases in a language that say something about the people. The person writing it was Hungarian and was talking about learning English and how this kind of cultural understanding made her English much better. One of the phrases she listed was "make a difference." She said that was such a stock phrase in English--probably especially American English--because it's such an American concept and it didn't really exist in a lot of other language. Paige and her parents kind of exemplify it. Paige, as an American, believes that she can Make A Difference as an individual (and as part of something bigger than herself). Philip and Elizabeth see themselves are just "proud to do whatever they can" along with everyone else in the country.

Do you by any chance have a link to that article?  That sounds really interesting and I'd love to know more about it.  Thanks!

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Pink-n-Green said:

That scene the next morning when Paige saw a breakfast sausage and winced was hilarious!

Do you by any chance have a link to that article?  That sounds really interesting and I'd love to know more about it.  Thanks!

Found it! It was this one: https://www.fluentin3months.com/culture-hacking/

Other words include "reasonable" and "fun."

4 hours ago, Pink-n-Green said:

That scene the next morning when Paige saw a breakfast sausage and winced was hilarious!

16 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

And again, she's focusing a lot on Elizabeth putting things in her mouth and no focus on her father, I don't know, licking a spoon or something.

5 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I tend to think Paige was a bit atypical in her overwhelming curiosity, focus on her parents, all consuming need to know. Not that I think her liking that her parents were obviously close/getting along  is unusual by any means. Especially after the S1 split. Though sometimes she saw more than she wanted! Lol 

Absolutely. I think her focus on them is definitely intended to be unusual too--it's another reason any references to a Russian soul seemed so irrelevant. I don't even think it's just about the lies, it's the sense of their connection. I liked how I think in Stingers in the big scene where she's confronting them she even says, "Stop it! I'm right here!" when they share one of those looks with each other--something they do yet again right before crossing the boarder back into the USSR. Paige seems to have recognized that early on. I don't know what Henry thinks, if anything, about their relationship besides that he can obviously see when they're having problems in S6. (And by then I think he probably identifies more with Philip since he himself is shut out by Elizabeth.)

Henry, I agree, seems to more focus on his own life and only notice his parents when they've disturbed it in some way. Even in S1 with the separation Henry's clearly very upset by it, yet it's Paige who goes to dinner at Philip's apartment and not Henry (who just buries his keys). Later in the season Philip comes to take the kids to dinner and Henry doesn't want to go because there's a hockey game on.

He's consistently like that right into S6, resenting times when his parents aren't there for him on principle but casually putting them off if he's got his own thing he wants to do in that moment. There was a lot of talk about Henry holding grudges that kept him from talking to his father in the last few eps but ultimately it seems that no, he was just busy and always thought there'd be more time (like he says to Stan about Matthew moving out, that his father moved out for a while but he came back). He doesn't cut the final phone call short because he's angry about Thanksgiving, but because he was in the middle of a ping pong game.

I do really almost want to go through the show for Paige's views on her parents because on one hand it's very natural that she'd be more focused on her mother when it came to sex and romance because that's her role model. But I'm not sure exactly where she fits Philip into that. It's not like she seems to be searching for a guy who reminds her of Philip--but then in some ways how could she since Philip's a very difficult person to know. Paige almost knows just enough about him to know how little she does know. 

[Erin9]

For all the time Paige spent with Elizabeth, I’m not sure she knows her that well- or vice versa for that matter. So much of their time was spent in the spy world- which as Philip rightly saw- was not a good thing. That was talking about a job. A job that Elizabeth described with half truths. Eating Russian food and watching TV really didn’t cut it either imo. 

Sure Paige knows some basics- her dad died at age 2, she was raped, her mother wanted her to go into the KGB, she grew up poor and fast, she wanted to help her country. But so much of Elizabeth was tied to spying and explaining that. Not all the time, but a lot. And more so as time went on. There’s a reason she sadly lost touch with Henry so completely. She stopped being able to engage. 

Whereas Philip- he talked less and so she knows less- but she knows certain things: his dad died at 6, also grew up poor and fast. Based on the garage scene alone, I think she understood his passion and devotion to his country. It was impossible to miss. I think she also might have recognized some loneliness in him when he emphasized how important Stan was to him as a friend, even with the big lie. Paige gets that. 

 More importantly- she and Henry know that he really tried to give them his TIME, work stress and all, all the way to the end. He talked to them. Had fun with them. Tried to know and be some part of what was going on in their lives. Told them to be themselves. Tried to get Paige to think about she was involved in spy-wise. On a lesser level they at least know he had hobbies and interests that were not spy related- hockey, country music, racquetball, cars, etc. I’m not sure Elizabeth really developed outside interests much. 

[sistermagpie]

25 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

For all the time Paige spent with Elizabeth, I’m not sure she knows her that well- or vice versa for that matter. So much of their time was spent in the spy world- which as Philip rightly saw- was not a good thing. That was talking about a job. A job that Elizabeth described with half truths. Eating Russian food and watching TV really didn’t cut it either imo. 

Philip and Elizabeth are both hard to know, but in different ways. With Philip I think you're right that Paige would at least see him as someone she can share feelings with without judgment. I think she's often unsatisfied with his answers since he doesn't have easy ones, but other times I think she knows that at least he's not going to tell her that she's just wrong for how she feels. It seems like there's a lot of examples where when she says something to him he tries to hear what she's actually saying or asking and respond to it. Like after the General when he talks about seeing terrible things. Or even what he starts to say about the bar fight, how he remembers what it felt like to first be able to do that. She impatiently stops him, but maybe later on will see he did know what he was talking about.

She also has some rather lame lines trying to defend her own position. When she says she's "not like" Philip he asks what she means and she can just make a vague reference to what she and Elizabeth "do" and claim that she's "into it." But ultimately it's him and Elizabeth who aren't like her.

In season 3 when Paige is reeling from the revelation I always remember that scene where she got really angry about it all being a lie--the one where Elizabeth tries to actually put a hand over her mouth. Paige had confronted them with a picture of a fake cousin. Philip comes in later, sits on the floor with her and shows her the picture of the night Henry was born, tells her that story. Admits that there is no Aunt Helen but it's not all a lie. In fact, I always found that scene interesting because to explain Aunt Helen he says that Elizabeth had to go away for a while to recover or get better--I forget his exact words, but they essentially leave it open for Paige to ask for details or not. She doesn't--like she doesn't in that moment want to hear about Elizabeth getting hurt.

But I'm not sure how much she gets Elizabeth, it's true. Paige is a kid and she has a very different experience of life. Based on a lot of the scenes where they're supposed to be bonding it's very possible that Paige isn't able to see through Elizabeth's tough shell and how much she needs to believe in what she does. The fact that all that training just leads to a blow up where Paige thinks the whole thing has been a lie *again* and then Elizabeth even claims Philip for her side in it--it's like putting Paige more back where she started. And it still doesn't seem like Paige is ready to hear Elizabeth's speech about sex and understand it from Elizabeth's pov.

Philip, at least, doesn't really ask as much from her. When he tries to explain himself to her he tends to be better at putting it in a context she can understand--like stopping nuclear war. He doesn't talk about his country because he knows it's not her country. In a way it's a shame Philip wasn't there for that final fight with Elizabeth. (Though for obvious plot reasons he couldn't be.) But maybe in a way that makes him just as unknowable because according to Elizabeth Philip's fine with her and it seems to be true because he does seem to choose Elizabeth--and he's even making his own crazy decisions like leaving Henry behind.

I'm not sure, actually, how Paige sees Philip in this triangle with her mother. It doesn't seem like he's trying to compete with her over him or anything like that, or go to him for help. I'm honestly not sure about their dynamic at times.

[Umbelina]

How would she "know" either of them?  They've lied to her for her entire life, up to and including when they left for the USSR.  She has snippets, nothing more.

[sistermagpie]

14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

How would she "know" either of them?  They've lied to her for her entire life, up to and including when they left for the USSR.  She has snippets, nothing more.

But I think there's a metaphor there for parents in general. No kid knows their parent completely growing up. In Paige's case she had plenty of times to learn things about her parents. Even before she knew the truth it's not like none of her interactions had any honesty to them. In her case once she learned the secret she knew them on a different level.

I mean, there are plenty of people who have learned something shocking about a parent after they died or realized that in some ways they didn't know them, but that doesn't necessarily mean you didn't know them at all. If you find out after his death that your minister, long-married father was gay and having affairs there's an extent to which you could feel like you never knew him...but in other ways you did and you can probably now see how the new information makes him make more sense. 

For somebody like Paige I can imagine that she would say she didn't now them because the lied, but Paige is particularly inflexible about that sort of thing, imo. I think she'd be more put off by new information about people she knows more than some.

[Umbelina]

It's more than that, parents tell little lies to children all the time, often for very valid reasons.

This is different.  Elizabeth lied to her even more than Philip, of course.  She was lying to her up until the very end.  "The General committed suicide, no problem with the sailor, YOU DID GREAT!"  The lies about her sex work, the lies about how often she killed people, hell she didn't even tell her the truth about her father.

Philip lied less because he was no longer spying, and because he was spending less time with her.  Philip always strove for honesty whenever he could with his children, but that excluded the biggest part of his life.

[hellmouse]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

For somebody like Paige I can imagine that she would say she didn't now them because the lied, but Paige is particularly inflexible about that sort of thing, imo. I think she'd be more put off by new information about people she knows more than some.

Interesting point. Paige was insistent about being told the truth about many things, but there were some things she really didn't ask about. After Elizabeth killed the mugger, she basically told Paige that she did not know how many people she had killed, which has to mean it's a big number. But Paige never asked anything more.  She never asked Philip if he had killed anyone. 

For all her fascination with their relationship, she never asked how they met or when they got married or anything like that. To me, that would have been something she'd be curious about, even before finding out they were Russian spies. 

There might have been some part of her thinking that didn't allow her to ask questions she really wasn't sure she wanted the answers to. There may have been some new information about her parents that she did not want to know. 

[Plums]

1 hour ago, hellmouse said:

For all her fascination with their relationship, she never asked how they met or when they got married or anything like that. To me, that would have been something she'd be curious about, even before finding out they were Russian spies. 

I got the impression that it never even occurred to Paige that her parents didn't fall in love and get married like a normal couple. Like, instead of meeting at travel agent business school, they met at spy school or something. That whole "Does Dad know he married a whore!?" thing. The marriage was one of the only lies she never thought to question. Maybe it finally hit her when they changed wedding rings in the finale. That reaction shot from her in that scene is another point at which I feel her resolve to stay firms up. She's reminded again how outside of her parents' relationship she is. 

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

It's more than that, parents tell little lies to children all the time, often for very valid reasons.

This is different.  Elizabeth lied to her even more than Philip, of course.  She was lying to her up until the very end.  "The General committed suicide, no problem with the sailor, YOU DID GREAT!"  The lies about her sex work, the lies about how often she killed people, hell she didn't even tell her the truth about her father.

Philip lied less because he was no longer spying, and because he was spending less time with her.  Philip always strove for honesty whenever he could with his children, but that excluded the biggest part of his life.

I know it sounds weird to put it like this but to me she still does know them. There are parents who lie about big things or are compulsive liars and that's something you know about them. Elizabeth did want to be known and is a pretty intense person. Paige knows what she's like to be with on a daily basis, her hard-ass attitude about everything, how sometimes she's like a robot who doesn't get ordinary people. She lied about the depth of her ruthlessness but when finally called out her position was pretty clear and even consistent with what came before.

Also with this:

3 hours ago, hellmouse said:

Interesting point. Paige was insistent about being told the truth about many things, but there were some things she really didn't ask about. After Elizabeth killed the mugger, she basically told Paige that she did not know how many people she had killed, which has to mean it's a big number. But Paige never asked anything more.  She never asked Philip if he had killed anyone. 

For all her fascination with their relationship, she never asked how they met or when they got married or anything like that. To me, that would have been something she'd be curious about, even before finding out they were Russian spies. 

There might have been some part of her thinking that didn't allow her to ask questions she really wasn't sure she wanted the answers to. There may have been some new information about her parents that she did not want to know. 

Paige's questions are pretty carefully chosen. She was obviously trying to understand her parents but her questions aren't along the lines that mine would have been. It would probably be good to go back and look at everything she asks. She does start out with a lot of focus on what parts of their life are real--she asks if they're really married, if Henry and she are really brother and sister, if the agency is fake, the workers there are fake, if they're really friends with Stan, what their real names are. That makes sense.

Afterwards she does seem more interested maybe in what they do than who they are in terms of trying to understand how they could have accepted this extreme life. Both parents have at some point said something about how they're not like her, don't think like her, didn't grow up like her. It makes me think of what @Dev F has said about her above all trying to normalize them and I think that's true. Even in the Russia lessons it seems mostly Claudia trying to really say to Paige that this is the way things are in the Old Country. Elizabeth's a bit more wishy-washy, sometimes following Claudia's lead, but sometimes instinctively making things more Paige-friendly, like her story about the boy on the couch (rather than talking about sex training) or connecting Tchaikovsky to going to see the Nutcracker. When they watch MDNBIT Claudia says things like "That's what it's like there" about the USSR. But Paige tries to find things to relate to her own life rather than asking for clarification on foreign details and at least once maybe genuinely brushes off something dark as if it's a joke.

 

1 hour ago, Plums said:

I got the impression that it never even occurred to Paige that her parents didn't fall in love and get married like a normal couple. Like, instead of meeting at travel agent business school, they met at spy school or something. That whole "Does Dad know he married a whore!?" thing. The marriage was one of the only lies she never thought to question. Maybe it finally hit her when they changed wedding rings in the finale. That reaction shot from her in that scene is another point at which I feel her resolve to stay firms up. She's reminded again how outside of her parents' relationship she is. 

She did ask them once if they were really married but you're right, she doesn't ask about things like that and you'd almost expect her to ask. Especially since she does tell Elizabeth how much she has to believe she'll meet someone like Philip. I assume she does think they met in spy school (which is basically true) but I wonder if, had she not known the secret, she would have asked more specific questions. It just always really surprised me how little she asked about their lives before the US. I know a big reason behind it would be that the show wanted to get into other things, but that still means they wrote Paige not to ask. The one time she asks Philip about his life she asks very normalized questions--what did his father do and did he like the town where he lived. She didn't press for details on the unusual parts.

In fact, that makes me think of the time when Paige asked Elizabeth if she was scared to take this job. Elizabeth starts to explain about Smolensk in the war etc. Paige accuses her of not answering the question when she clearly is answering. She's just explaining her way of thinking, which is completely different than Paige's. There's actually several times when Elizabeth shares something with Paige that is pretty central to who she is.

In a way Philip might even be harder to know because he's so willing to fit in. There's probably plenty of times where Philip looks to the kids like just a dorky Dad when inside he feels like some cartoon caricature of an immigrant with a thick accent and a goat on a rope.

I love that switch of the wedding rings too. Among other things, it's a reminder that they have a Russian marriage too. Even the wedding rings she saw every day and assumed were real were a cover.

[Plums]

ah, I had forgotten that asking if they were really married was one of those rapid fire "IS ANYTHING REAL?" questions she asked the episode after she found out, when she was freaking out about it. I guess what I meant is she always gave the impression that she never understood their marriage as anything but sincere, if not technically legal. Like, she treats them like their marriage ticks all the boxes of a normal marriage and never thinks to ask if it is or ever was only a cover. I guess what I'm saying is the idea that it started as just an arrangement for a job was never a possibility that entered into her mind, and that I think that because she reacts to it like a typical love story.   

If I were Paige, I think I'd eventually ask them why they ever chose to have kids, considering the life they led. Another one, especially after they introduced the concept of having to flee to Russia, was that she never asked if they ever planned to just move back on their own or if they meant to live in America with their false identities for the rest of their lives, presuming they never got caught. I'd ask them if they were ever going to tell me if I hadn't demanded answers and forced their hand. 

I honestly don't think, with regards to their personal lives, who they were, that her questions were so lacking. She knows a lot about her parents' pasts. She actually knows more about her grandparents and the details of the places her parents grew up better than I do for my own. I didn't see her curiosity of their pre-US lives as lacking. She asked a lot about their childhood. What struck me was her lack of curiosity over the details of what their job entails. She tended to just accept the super vague, whitewashed explanations they gave her and didn't ask questions. When they volunteered operational details to her, like when they thought they were unambiguously the good guys with the wheat plot, only then did she seem to ask about what their jobs actually entailed. Like, she had no idea they used fake identities with sources before then, or formed relationships to get close to people under false pretenses. And that's just wild to me. 

12 hours ago, hellmouse said:

After Elizabeth killed the mugger, she basically told Paige that she did not know how many people she had killed, which has to mean it's a big number.

OMG I had totally forgotten that she found out so early on that her mother at least has killed a lot of people, and it apparently didn't bother her. That fits in with her comparative non-reactions to seeing the general's "suicide" all over her mother's face and all the operational deaths she knew about versus flipping out and being Done after finding out her mother slept with a guy her age. Her breaking point being the sex and not the violence is consistent. 

[Erin9]

I thought the opposite: Paige mostly focused on the spy aspect of the job, vague details or not- that’s what she mostly asked about-not their lives pre-US.  I don’t think that’s super unusual for someone her age, but she sure wasn’t asking the questions I wanted her to ask, or that I would have asked. She never even asked how Philip’s father died or what happened to his mother. Those are basic questions that I would have expected, teenager or not. And I think they are questions she and Henry would both want answers to someday. Among MANY questions they’d both have.

If Paige had asked any more than she already was about their jobs, then we needed to see P/E really shut her down- even more than they should have anyway. They were spies. Doing work for national security.  She did not need the details. It was, as Philip said, a JOB. 

Her mother killing people was framed as doing so in self defense, which was in a manner of speaking true. So, I can see why the sex aspect was a big deal when she finally “got” it- she clearly understood the level of manipulation, potential to ruin someone’s life and- from her POV- infidelity involved. It did come across pretty badly. She knew they got information from people, she really didn’t know all that went into it, in reality. 

I remember Paige asking if ANYTHING was real, including the marriage, and they said yes. It was true by then. Besides- Paige had observed them over time, when they weren’t focused on her or didn’t know she was there. She also knew there was a bond and understanding there. So- I’m not surprised it never seriously occurred to her that it started as an arrangement.

I’m surprised she never asked how they really met though. She may have assumed spy school, but it would have been logical to ask. That was weird. Most kids ask that at some point. Or the first date or engagement story. Very odd imo. Or as immigrants what they they thought when they got to the US. She really was too busy focusing on the spy part. 

Regarding Paige feeling “outside” the relationship when they put on the real rings...from my POV Paige was about where she needed to be in terms of their relationship. She knew what mattered- it was real. She didn’t need to be “in on” all of it. No kid does. As I stated above, I think she failed to ask basic questions, but that’s a different thing. 

In my mind- just spending time with her parents, sharing family meals, and growing up with them meant she knew them on some level. Same goes for Henry.  They knew likes/dislikes, personality quirks. They could not and did not submerge everything. Philip was more laid back and fun, put more effort into relationships, had a tendency to really think things through.

 Paige saw less of the intense  side of her dad- but it was there from time to time when he got onto her about lying and being disrespectful. The sparring scene should have been an eye opener on his capabilities. 

Elizabeth was more intense, the more strict one.  Less able to loosen up and just have fun- though she did from time to time- like Paige getting her ears pierced. From Henry’s POV, Elizabeth might be more of a mystery because he interacted with her so seldom in the last few years. But he had plenty of time before then, where she was much more interactive. 

[sistermagpie]

6 hours ago, Plums said:

ah, I had forgotten that asking if they were really married was one of those rapid fire "IS ANYTHING REAL?" questions she asked the episode after she found out, when she was freaking out about it. I guess what I meant is she always gave the impression that she never understood their marriage as anything but sincere, if not technically legal. Like, she treats them like their marriage ticks all the boxes of a normal marriage and never thinks to ask if it is or ever was only a cover. I guess what I'm saying is the idea that it started as just an arrangement for a job was never a possibility that entered into her mind, and that I think that because she reacts to it like a typical love story.   

Oh yeah, I agree. The one question was just part of everything in Paige's life being a lie, but she never asks about how they met or seems to think of it like anything other than the marriage she always saw. Like Erin says, I can see why she never suspects it was fake, but it's interesting that she seems interested in finding a partner like her mother did but never asks if they met at some activist meeting or whatever. She doesn't know how they became spies, probably assumes they both applied for it in some way.

6 hours ago, Plums said:

If I were Paige, I think I'd eventually ask them why they ever chose to have kids, considering the life they led. Another one, especially after they introduced the concept of having to flee to Russia, was that she never asked if they ever planned to just move back on their own or if they meant to live in America with their false identities for the rest of their lives, presuming they never got caught. I'd ask them if they were ever going to tell me if I hadn't demanded answers and forced their hand. 

Yeah, and yet they tell her it's a possibility. I get the impression she assumes they do intend to live in the US indefinitely and that makes sense given she's an American who would think that's what immigrants did. Like when she asks them if their US names feel like their real names now.

6 hours ago, Plums said:

I honestly don't think, with regards to their personal lives, who they were, that her questions were so lacking. She knows a lot about her parents' pasts. She actually knows more about her grandparents and the details of the places her parents grew up better than I do for my own. I didn't see her curiosity of their pre-US lives as lacking. She asked a lot about their childhood.

 

4 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I thought the opposite: Paige mostly focused on the spy aspect of the job, vague details or not- that’s what she mostly asked about-not their lives pre-US.  I don’t think that’s super unusual for someone her age, but she sure wasn’t asking the questions I wanted her to ask, or that I would have asked. She never even asked how Philip’s father died or what happened to his mother. Those are basic questions that I would have expected, teenager or not. And I think they are questions she and Henry would both want answers to someday. Among MANY questions they’d both have.

My impression was like Erin's here. I don't think she knows much about her grandparents or the details of where they grew up at all--the details she does know often came because the parent threw it in on their own--I jumped on these crumbs, but Paige didn't seem to much. She met her mother's mother, but that was Philip's idea. Elizabeth told her about Smolensk in ruins etc. because she was answering Paige's question about whether she was scared. The only thing she directly asked Philip about his past was what his father did for a living and whether he liked where he lived--the name and place of the city being something Philip added to give context to his father being (he thought) a logger. Philip also throws in the detail of him working in a cooperative making rakes after school, but Paige doesn't ask about that. Likewise when Elizabeth throws in references to living in a communal apartment.

So all she knows about her grandparents is that they're Russian, that her mom left her own mother when she was a teenager, that her father's father died when he was 6 and he was a logger and worked very hard. And that her father's mother was tough, just like her mother's mother. She really doesn't ask about details about what it was like growing up in this very different country, or any more details about her grandparents' personalities.

Oh, and she also asks Philip if his mother was a good cook--another question that's about something normal for Paige. He pauses and says she made a soup that he liked, though we know that it was probably a difficult question because of just how much of his childhood was driven by hunger. This is one thing that never really seems real to her--I'm not sure she believes that Elizabeth ate rats any more than she believed Claudia having sex for food. 

4 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I’m surprised she never asked how they really met though. She may have assumed spy school, but it would have been logical to ask. That was weird. Most kids ask that at some point. Or the first date or engagement story. Very odd imo. Or as immigrants what they they thought when they got to the US. She really was too busy focusing on the spy part. 

Yes, I feel like a lot of this fits the pattern of her always trying to make them basically regular Americans, focusing on their lives here and not being interested in the parts of them that are foreign. 

4 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Regarding Paige feeling “outside” the relationship when they put on the real rings...from my POV Paige was about where she needed to be in terms of their relationship. She knew what mattered- it was real. She didn’t need to be “in on” all of it. No kid does. As I stated above, I think she failed to ask basic questions, but that’s a different thing. 

For me the importance of that moment isn't that she doesn't necessarily know everything, but that the two of them still have this very close relationship that nobody else is part of, so the three of them are never a trio. It's like she says back in S2--early on she sees them looking out for each other more than anyone else, including the kids. That would probably only be more exaggerated if she followed them to the USSR, a place that doesn't even really seem real to her.

This is also happening in an ep where her parents are knocking her for a loop after loop. First she learns about the honeytrapping, Elizabeth claims her father's in on this too. When they show up Paige is prepared for them both to "talk" to her about it and instead they just tell her they're bugging out, leaving Henry, going to Russia. Stan throws the fact that they're murderers in their face. She gets this sudden story about a Russian coup Paige didn't know about but is apparently important to them. Them doing some weird thing where they have to switch one set of wedding rings for another, imo, would be just another little sign of how she'll never really know what's going on with them. (I notice Philip puts the new ring on his left hand, presumably because they have to wear them like western wedding rings until they get out of NA.)

4 hours ago, Erin9 said:

In my mind- just spending time with her parents, sharing family meals, and growing up with them meant she knew them on some level. Same goes for Henry.  They knew likes/dislikes, personality quirks. They could not and did not submerge everything. Philip was more laid back and fun, put more effort into relationships, had a tendency to really think things through.

 Paige saw less of the intense  side of her dad- but it was there from time to time when he got onto her about lying and being disrespectful. The sparring scene should have been an eye opener on his capabilities. 

Elizabeth was more intense, the more strict one.  Less able to loosen up and just have fun- though she did from time to time- like Paige getting her ears pierced. From Henry’s POV, Elizabeth might be more of a mystery because he interacted with her so seldom in the last few years. But he had plenty of time before then, where she was much more interactive. 

I agree. And also when Paige is facing some of the most intense stuff they do tend to throw something in where it's clarified for her that what Elizabeth does/is Philip does/is. When she asks Elizabeth about how many people she's killed and Elizabeth says she's trained to protect herself Paige says, "Dad too?" And of course in that last fight about the honeytrapping when Elizabeth lays out her "What was sex?" pov she makes sure to say that this pov is absolutely shared by Paige's father. Whether that makes Paige think about Philip sleeping with sources too or just being okay with Elizabeth doing it (maybe she'll do the latter and work her way up to the former), that line is drawn and her parents are on the same side of it. 

This makes me think of something like The Sopranos too. The kids know Tony's a mobster, but they're not brought along on hits. Really, I have this theory that a lot of golden age TV is about pushing back on this simple view of parents being obsessed with their kids. This, Mad Men, Breaking Bad all have parents with sides their kids don't see until they're shocked by them.

[Umbelina]

Paige never asked important questions, about anything, she was surprisingly incurious about just about everything, beyond her very young for her age naivete. 

I think Paige has the same fanatical bent, the same "I wanna be a HERO!" thing going on, which is not really being a social justice warrior, it's a bit more about calling yourself one, but really doing it as a self-esteem thing more than honestly caring about the people you are supposedly helping.  For example, Elizabeth was never interested in the true conditions of the Soviet Union, even when she had people to talk to that had recently lived there.  She always shut down those conversations, with the South African guy who trained with the KGB for a year and faced discrimination in the USSR, for example, she heard him, she said "it's not perfect" and that was it.  Not a follow up question, not a "how was your trainer?"  With the Russian couple in season 5, she didn't want to hear about the shortages and corruption, while Philip was very curious and tried to discuss it with her later.  Shut down.

Philip on the other hand honestly CARED who he was as a person, and why he did the things he did, who they were for, what they would accomplish.  "Why can't we grow our own wheat?"  "What will they do with this deadly bio-weapon when they can't even make lids that fit in the USSR?"  His curiosity about everything the Russian guy was telling him in season 5, and being quite disturbed by that.  Getting so fed up and losing his true self so much that he quit.

Anyway, back to Paige.  If she grows a brain, and I think she will with maturity, which will probably take her a bit longer than most people, but may fast forward quickly since she's now going to have to face massive legal and financial issues, and do something like actually get a job so she can have a roof over her head and something to eat?  I think she will go back and forth about her parents.  Hopefully she'll eventually get over her desperate need to follow people she considers "strong and worthy and important and forces for good."  Thank heavens Manson was before her time and she never meets Jim Jones.

As far as her parents though?  She's always thought she's like her mother, or she's always wanted to be like her mother.  Especially for the past several years, she's modeled herself on Elizabeth, trying to copy just about everything about her.  "I'm not like you (to Philip) I'm like mom."  I think she honestly believed she admired her as someone worthy, not just loved her because that was her mother.  She'll probably continue to think that for a while, and here and there throughout her life.

In the end though?  She's going to remember Philip, always, always, always telling her to be herself, telling her to follow her heart, telling her she's wonderful and capable and can make her own choices and decisions.  She'll also remember his words to Henry on the phone.  She'll remember the important lesson he taught her in that apartment about fighting.  While Elizabeth lies to her, and tells her how great she's doing fighting?  Philip tells and shows her the TRUTH.  While her mother was grooming her to  be a spy (and yes, she'll realize when that began and replay that in her mind forever) she'll also remember that it was her father who took her to buy the baptism dress.  He's the one who supported HER choice, even though he didn't like it, while Elizabeth was the one who used the church to groom her.

So, even though she may indeed be "more like mom" by nature?  She's going to grow up enough someday to realize the one she really wants to be more like?  Is her dad.  She's going to realize the one who never tried to use her, and stood by her no matter what choices she made, who stayed as honest as he could be with her all of the time?  Was her dad. 

Paige says she cares about truth.  Philip cares deeply about truth, and sought it in EST.  Elizabeth?  Cares about what works, and that's not a bad thing, but it's not a good thing either, it depends on what goals you are working for. 

Paige is in for a lot of truth now, she'll know the general was murdered, and the sailor , and the guys in the warehouse, and the Teacups bloody bodies that their very young child discovered, and murders upon murders going back to before she was born.  By the time the CIA/FBI and probably a few lawmakers are done with her she will have a very clear picture of who the "hero" in her home really was.  It was probably the guy who couldn't stand it anymore, not because he was weak, but because he DID care, and didn't believe it was a just cause anymore.  It's going to be her dad, the one who thought for himself, not the mother who blindly kept following orders.

Edited June 22, 2018 by Umbelina
kid wasn't a "toddler"

[sistermagpie]

Quote

As far as her parents though?  She's always thought she's like her mother, or she's always wanted to be like her mother.  Especially for the past several years, she's modeled herself on Elizabeth, trying to copy just about everything about her.  "I'm not like you (to Philip) I'm like mom."  I think she honestly believed she admired her as someone worthy, not just loved her because that was her mother.  She'll probably continue to think that for a while, and here and there throughout her life.

 I remember always thinking it was interesting how they always tended to style Paige like Elizabeth. Particularly in S3 where she starts really seeming to try to wear her hair like her--she even dresses in a more mature way for her age that I think is kind of copying her. This is also why I get more confused about how exactly she thinks she feels about Philip. They have a lot of conversations where he's being gentle to her and listening to her, he teaches her to drive and gets her the baptism dress. But they never get to a place where it feels like she comes to a real understanding about him. I think it's like you suggest, that he's more just always there and trying and she doesn't get how important what he's saying is until after he's gone. He was ready to love her just as much as a Christian just like he loves Henry the regular American. Elizabeth couldn't help but send the message that she was disappointed in even her children when they didn't think and believe like her, even if that wasn't her intention.

It also seems significant that Philip continues all these gentle talks and listening to her in S6. Then he starts to get annoyed. In the sparring scene he comes over and tries to talk to her about what she's doing but she's so stubborn he just stops talking and gets physical. It's different from the Bible scene where he was losing it because of his own issues and then was so contrite that he wanted to apologize and had to ask her to speak to him again. 

It's the last scene they really have alone together and the last real interaction they have between the two of them alone and it's a scene where he's basically showing her how easily he could kill her. It's also the first time (maybe the only time since she might not be as aware of it in the garage) where Paige gets to see really anything of spy Philip. 

Quote

So, even though she may indeed be "more like mom" by nature?  She's going to grow up enough someday to realize the one she really wants to be more like?  Is her dad.  She's going to realize the one who never tried to use her, and stood by her no matter what choices she made, who stayed as honest as he could be with her all of the time?  Was her dad. 

It really is a big difference between her and Elizabeth. Elizabeth had her own mother, who seems more like her and Paige. She didn't have a father, just as series of male handlers who wanted to encourage the things in her personality that benefited them. Her image of her father was just two extremes--the hero in uniform in the picture who lived up to the Soviet ideal and the traitor who failed to do so. But Paige has a father encouraging her to be different and really look at things and think about them instead of just listening to how someone else tells her to interpret them. 

Paige may first be aware of the absence of Elizabeth since she's always been such a force in her life but ultimately I think she's going to be surprised at how much she was always aware of Philip being there if she needed him. It always felt to me that she was frustrated by his insistence on not being enough of an authority figure like Elizabeth who was stricter or Pastor Tim who had all the answers. Paige was always very quick to roll her eyes at Philip because she knew he'd never hurt her.

Which again maybe makes that sparring scene incredibly important to her. She maybe finally figures out that he doesn't hurt her because he doesn't choose to hurt her, not because he couldn't do that. She doesn't go running to her mother to make sense of that scene either (and Philip never shows any remorse).

Quote

Paige says she cares about truth.  Philip cares deeply about truth, and sought it in EST.  Elizabeth?  Cares about what works, and that's not a bad thing, but it's not a good thing either, it depends on what goals you are working for. 

 

Elizabeth and Paige both are really interesting examples of the kind of people whose desire for truth leads them to the greatest heights of delusion or inability to see the obvious truth. It's like they want to skip to the end of the teacher's edition and get the answers and then fit every problem they come across into what they already know.

Edited June 22, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Which again maybe makes that sparring scene incredibly important to her. She maybe finally figures out that he doesn't hurt her because he doesn't choose to hurt her, not because he couldn't do that. She doesn't go running to her mother to make sense of that scene either (and Philip never shows any remorse).

Paige is a very surface person, she's not deep, she's not soulful or insightful. 

She saw her mother as strong, forceful, impressive and she saw her father as a wimp, a quitter, the quintessential boring "nice guy" but that's it.

Philip shouldn't show remorse!  Remorse for what?  Paige dismisses him, especially in that way.  If he'd tried to talk to her about an honest assessment of her fighting skills she would have blown him off, or rolled her eyes at him.  "I'm like mom, not like you."

The only way, and the most honest way to let Paige know something extremely important, something that could be life or death for Paige, now that she's escalating fights in bars because of her idiotic inflated opinion about her skills, and complete lack of discretion about keeping her cover as KGB trainee?

Was to SHOW her. 

He did that, because he had to.  He may have been angry at her insolent attitude and idiocy and even at Elizabeth's dishonesty and lenience with her training, but he never, not for one moment, lost control.  It wasn't even close to "temper."  Had it been?  Paige would be injured or dead.  That was a show of total competency and skill to let her know just what kind of trouble showing off her "sparring skills with pads" could get her in in the REAL world, not the fantasy lies of Elizabeth.  Paige could NOT have heard him, but she was shown just how easily she could be killed.  She'll think twice before ever deliberately starting a fight again, and should she be in a life or death situation, she'll realize her best option is always to run if she can, avoid whenever possible, and at the very least, to drop the cockiness.

He was saving her life.

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

t also seems significant that Philip continues all these gentle talks and listening to her in S6. Then he starts to get annoyed. In the sparring scene he comes over and tries to talk to her about what she's doing but she's so stubborn he just stops talking and gets physical. It's different from the Bible scene where he was losing it because of his own issues and then was so contrite that he wanted to apologize and had to ask her to speak to him again. 

It's the last scene they really have alone together and the last real interaction they have between the two of them alone and it's a scene where he's basically showing her how easily he could kill her. It's also the first time (maybe the only time since she might not be as aware of it in the garage) where Paige gets to see really anything of spy Philip. 

We have always seen that scene so differently.

To me, it was total honesty, and complete love.  Of all of Paige's so-called "training" from Elizabeth, this was the most valuable thing she ever learned, and Philip did it in less than 4 minutes.

It's also a call back to that scene when the creep with the young teen hit on 13 year old Paige in the department store.  Paige will look back at that now with different eyes.  NOW she will realize that Philip could have killed that guy, even though he was larger and appeared stronger?  In seconds.  Her dad chose not to, he maintained his cover, and though provoked greatly, didn't lose it in public.

Will she wonder now about her dad addressing him by name?  Checking his credit card name automatically, and using it, because Philip is trained to observe everything?  Will she wonder if her dad went after him later, away from eyes, away from his daughter who could have been traumatized if Philip was the type to "lose his temper?' 

I certainly would.  I'd be going over everything in my life after barely escaping living in the USSR, and undergoing endless questioning by US authorities.

Her mother always lied to her about important things.  Her father tried not to, and when she finally gains some self awareness, she'll realize that the main fight between her mother and dad was about her being a spy.  With grown up eyes, she'll realize someday that her dad was always looking out for her.  When he talked to her in her room late at night about never having to do ANYTHING she wasn't comfortable with, he wasn't warning her off drugs, he was talking about the KGB.  When her mother "bonded" with her over the church activities, she'd never really supported her, that was a recruitment.

Once her legal troubles end, once she learns most of what her parents did, she will FINALLY read more books about spying, from real spies, not just the cool stuff (in her mind) like honey trapping, but about that lies, and how you recruit a source or agent.

Or she'll just remain the naive unquestioning, un-examining, pushover she was as a child and young adult.  I tend to think the former though, she, much like Philip, will want answers and finally start reading and learning about spies.  She'll have her own questions about the difference between following your conscience and following orders, and about which choice really is the most admirable.

Paige is a person who likes heroes.  If she doesn't grow out of that?  At least I think she will identify the true hero as far as "for her" in her family, and it isn't mommy.  Her dad tried to save her from that life, her mother tried to pull her in.  That "fight" in her apartment was saving her.

Edited June 22, 2018 by Umbelina

[Plums]

I don't blame Paige for being so manipulated by her parents. They both denied hurting people at first, even dismissed the idea that they ever would or could as absurd, not just Elizabeth. Paige was open to a much more accurate idea of what her parents did at first, but they consistently formed for her an unreal, innocuous vision of spying purely to protect themselves, both in their daughter's eyes and in the Tims'. Like, Paige wasn't naive to the possibility that the Russians could make someone inconvenient disappear when Pastor Tim went missing in Ethiopia, but Philip and Elizabeth treated the accusation like this ridiculous, extreme offense. And then it turned out not to be Russians, and Paige felt guilty for thinking they could be so nefarious. They both really shielded her from the realities of the job, which no doubt led to the extremely warped, not nearly serious enough perspective she came to have on it.  

All this talk about the sparring scene- I'm going back to rewatch all the times we saw Elizabeth training Paige in self defense, and it's just incredible how much she misled Paige about her skills. I really can't fault Paige at all for thinking she was hot shit in that bar. Just before Elizabeth tells Paige about her rape in season 5, they were having another sparring session. Things had escalated a lot from the beginning of the season when Elizabeth was just teaching Paige to follow through on a swing- they had progressed to coming at each other and dodging. Paige lost and disappointedly asked Elizabeth, point blank, when she would be good enough to take care of herself if someone tried to come after her again. This must have been like a month or two from the time they started training after the mugging incident. Elizabeth told her she was doing really well and getting there. And I just want to reiterate, this self defense training was not at all happening in the context of training Paige to be a spy, not from Paige's perspective. She explicitly wanted to know how to defend herself from creeps and murderers so that she could feel safe again. Three years of training and sparring with Elizabeth later, and sometimes even "beating" Elizabeth, Philip takes her down in like two moves without trying at all. Elizabeth is entirely at fault for that. And it's particularly egregious because we see in the rape flashback in the pilot episode, which takes place when Elizabeth is 18, so basically a year after she was recruited by the KGB, and she's lightyears ahead of Paige's fighting skill even then. And most crucially, is still entirely at the mercy of a rapist. Which is exactly the kind of threat she promised Paige she would train her to defend herself against. 

A huge dissatisfaction I have with the three year time jump is that we don't know when Paige was actually recruited. We can only extrapolate based on the context of what we see of where's she at by the start. And she acts like a new hire on the job. I would guess from what we see that she trained in surveillance like what we saw with Hans but had only been elevated to an actual working member of the team maybe a few weeks before the start of the season. I don't think she started training in that spy work until she was in the apartment, tbh, though the indoctrination with Claudia and agreement to aim for a strategically placed government job probably began when she was first in college, if her choice of major is anything to go by. Who even knows what happened her final year of high school. 

[Erin9]

@Umbelina

I already “liked” your post on the sparring scene, but it really was amazing. :) 

ICAM- that Philip saved her life with that. She had NO IDEA how ill prepared she was. And that was fully on Elizabeth. Elizabeth really screwed up there. She simply should not have been trying to train her own kid. Philip knew how over her head she was the minute he saw the two of them. I wish Paige had directly addressed this with her mother. Philip too. But other problems popped up- with Kimmie, Harvest.....

It was an act of love. And he had nothing to be remorseful about. I would have been mad if he had showed remorse. She needed the wake up call. 

He came over with the intent of trying to verbally make a point with her- and when she was clearly not listening and being condescending AGAIN- then he showed her what would happen in the real world. She’ll never forget it. And undoubtedly will think twice before starting a fight again. 

Yep-  Philip’s fully honest 4 minutes with her were more valuable than years of Elizabeth’s training full of half truths. And this is one of the reasons why I tend to like the Paige/Philip scenes more. They are fewer, but literally pack more of a punch. They’re much more honest and real. He’s generally trying to guide her in the right direction. To a point, of course. He doesn’t tell Paige everything, but then, I don’t feel she needed to know all until she decided to be a spy. No kid needs to know- or should know- what their parents do as spies. 

[sistermagpie]

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

We have always seen that scene so differently.

No, we see it exactly the same! I must not have expressed it well but I was trying to say exactly what you were saying better. Philip is still, in S6, trying to talk to her gently. When he gets annoyed he's being passive-aggressive about it and Paige isn't getting it. When he comes over to her apartment he starts, again, to just talk to her. Him saying, "I remember what it felt like to be able to do that..." sounds to me like he's trying to have an honest conversation about the rush that comes with hitting someone for the first time and how dangerous it is to let herself get carried away like that.

But Paige immediately interrupts with her usual eye-rolling, denies he might have anything to say, probably thinks he's giving her some lame speech about how fighting is wrong or he doesn't want her to get hurt because he doesn't get how brave and badass she is, how not afraid of getting hurt and how able to take care of herself.

So he realizes the talking isn't working. She thinks she's "not like him" because she can fight? He'll have to just show her, without even raising his heart rate, what a real fight would feel like. Well, not even a real fight because it's not like Philip is trying to hurt her even a little. He doesn't have to.

Even when he first starts she doesn't get it. She condescendingly acts as if he must not ever have trained in sparring because he doesn't know you need pads to really spar. Asks if he wants her to "pretend" to hit him and does a couple of little jabs like she's facing her laundry bag. Philip flicks out his arm like it's nothing to bat her arm away and she says, "Ow!" Until that moment she couldn't even believe she could be expected to spar with her goofy non-badass father.

When I said he didn't show remorse like he did with the Bible I meant he didn't show remorse because he didn't feel remorseful and had no reason to be. With the Bible he lost his temper because Paige accidentally said something that hit a nerve. He didn't really refuse to accept her interest in religion. He felt bad because he knew his anger wasn't all at Paige and thought he should have been calmer. (Though I still think that scene was also an important lesson--if you're going to be a snot to people they might lose their temper--she was trying to be the adult in terms of getting respect but also be the child in being able to be rude and still indulged.) So she winds up getting the upper hand with him.

But with the sparring scene he didn't lose his temper, he didn't overreact. He was completely in control and making the point he wanted to make. He was saying, unapologetically, that he was better trained than she was, bigger and stronger than she was and, frankly, far more deadly. He had actually experience killing people and so might plenty of people Paige might run into in a bar. He didn't even look back when she's half-collapsing and gasping. He knows it's protecting her more in the long run to not...well, I was going to say "not pull his punches" but really is *is* still pulling his punches in that scene. If he actually wanted to hurt her she'd be dead.

I just think it's interesting that since we never see them interact much afterwards we don't see how much it's sunk in for Paige yet. Did she try to deny what happened when he left? Or did that moment of being choked out and helpless show her not only how powerless she was but how actually powerful he was? Did it make her realize that she'd been fooling herself about him, confusing his softness for her for him being soft in general? We have this big scene and then we go into the vodka drinking scene and Paige doesn't even seem to want to talk to her mother about it.

 

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Will she wonder now about her dad addressing him by name?  Checking his credit card name automatically, and using it, because Philip is trained to observe everything?  Will she wonder if her dad went after him later, away from eyes, away from his daughter who could have been traumatized if Philip was the type to "lose his temper?' 

I certainly would.  I'd be going over everything in my life after barely escaping living in the USSR, and undergoing endless questioning by US authorities.

They do make a point in that scene of Philip sheepishly telling her it's better not to fight and Paige sort of assuring him he's right. Then she gets with Pastor Tim who's a braver pacifist, implying that he's choosing not to defend himself. Then there's Elizabeth offering her the key to life by hitting things. The final scene of that whole idea for Paige is her father efficiently and quietly kicking her ass. Kind of comes full circle, if she thinks about it.

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Her mother always lied to her about important things.  Her father tried not to, and when she finally gains some self awareness, she'll realize that the main fight between her mother and dad was about her being a spy.  With grown up eyes, she'll realize someday that her dad was always looking out for her.  When he talked to her in her room late at night about never having to do ANYTHING she wasn't comfortable with, he wasn't warning her off drugs, he was talking about the KGB.  When her mother "bonded" with her over the church activities, she'd never really supported her, that was a recruitment.

That's one of the things I most hope she figures out. It's so perfectly representative about how she doesn't recognize actual respect when she sees it. It's like she prefers conditional relationships.

5 hours ago, Plums said:

All this talk about the sparring scene- I'm going back to rewatch all the times we saw Elizabeth training Paige in self defense, and it's just incredible how much she misled Paige about her skills. I really can't fault Paige at all for thinking she was hot shit in that bar. Just before Elizabeth tells Paige about her rape in season 5, they were having another sparring session. Things had escalated a lot from the beginning of the season when Elizabeth was just teaching Paige to follow through on a swing- they had progressed to coming at each other and dodging. Paige lost and disappointedly asked Elizabeth, point blank, when she would be good enough to take care of herself if someone tried to come after her again. This must have been like a month or two from the time they started training after the mugging incident. Elizabeth told her she was doing really well and getting there. And I just want to reiterate, this self defense training was not at all happening in the context of training Paige to be a spy, not from Paige's perspective. She explicitly wanted to know how to defend herself from creeps and murderers so that she could feel safe again. Three years of training and sparring with Elizabeth later, and sometimes even "beating" Elizabeth, Philip takes her down in like two moves without trying at all. Elizabeth is entirely at fault for that. And it's particularly egregious because we see in the rape flashback in the pilot episode, which takes place when Elizabeth is 18, so basically a year after she was recruited by the KGB, and she's lightyears ahead of Paige's fighting skill even then. And most crucially, is still entirely at the mercy of a rapist. Which is exactly the kind of threat she promised Paige she would train her to defend herself against. 

Yes, and when we see Paige and Elizabeth at the top level of their sparring it's so clearly designed to make Paige feel like she's doing more than she is. She's moving around, burning energy, doing all these quick high kicks and punches--it's practically like a dance. Especially some of those high kicks that honestly don't look like anything we've ever seen Philip and Elizabeth do. It doesn't seem like it could seriously hurt anybody. She's moving all over the garage. I imagine she feels awesome after every session. She's sweaty, out of breath, drinking from her water bottle. Feeling pretty cool.

Elizabeth succeeded if her goal was to make Paige not feel so afraid--she's confidently walking to her car in the parking lot where the muggers were by the end of season 5. But she hasn't given her the ability to even touch Philip, much less break out of any hold he decided to put her in. Philip basically was her Timoshev wake-up call--he overpowered her just as easily. He just didn't hurt her, didn't get off on it, did it to really teach her an important lesson. Paige says she'd only ever hit her mother in practice before. Until Philip she'd barely fought anyone who fought back. Even the big guy in the bar who hit her mostly stood there like a mountain until she brought him down.

 

Quote

A huge dissatisfaction I have with the three year time jump is that we don't know when Paige was actually recruited. We can only extrapolate based on the context of what we see of where's she at by the start. And she acts like a new hire on the job. I would guess from what we see that she trained in surveillance like what we saw with Hans but had only been elevated to an actual working member of the team maybe a few weeks before the start of the season. I don't think she started training in that spy work until she was in the apartment, tbh, though the indoctrination with Claudia and agreement to aim for a strategically placed government job probably began when she was first in college, if her choice of major is anything to go by. Who even knows what happened her final year of high school. 

I don't think we even know anything about her choice of major--she's should be at the start of her sophomore year, so she probably hadn't chosen it yet. We hear about a sociology class and whatever that class was she reported on. Maybe a poli sci class? She was probably being directed in what to take, actually, at least to some extent. Again a contrast to Henry who's completely self-directed in his classes, it seems, and interested in at least some of them for their own sake. Or because they serve his own goals.

Edited June 23, 2018 by sistermagpie