Elizabeth: The True Believer

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, crgirl412 said:

Philip is way more than a little ahead of her!!!  He talked about defecting back in S1E1 (I think it was then) and keeps talking about it while she's telling them that he likes it here too much so of course they become suspicious of him. 

Elizabeth really keeps cutting off every other option than just getting caught or killed. Philip started out with defection in the pilot (a bit extreme, imo, given where they were afterwards) and then throws that away when he kills Timoshev and Elizabeth doesn't want to. Then he pushes for running back to Russia when Pastor Tim find out, trying to tempt her with living in Odessa and impressing on her the danger. She rejects that too. Then Gabriel suggests them going back and they don't. Then Elizabeth finally does suggest retiring there but quickly takes back the offer when Philip confesses about the Kimmie tape.

So at this point, what's left? They're ensconced in the US. Paige wants to be here spying. Henry's got a bright future ahead of him with all sorts of options in the USA. Philip seems to have accepted that he's not going home so has made a life for himself as Philip Jennings here. But pretty soon that option's going to be closed too. They're going to get caught.

9 hours ago, scrb said:

Um, that's pretty much the definition of an ideologue, guys.  You created a hard-core ideologue who's shown little signs up to the last season of being able to adjust her beliefs to a different reality than the one which was inculcated into her from a young age.

LOL! Yes, exactly. They've had some hints that she occasionally feels bad here and there but for the most part she seems just as firm as ever, thrilled at the idea of her daughter joining her in not questioning what she's doing or taking any responsibility for the damage she causes. It's not even just that she doesn't reconsider their ideology in light of reality. There's also a reluctance to look at herself and her real motivations. As the EST guy infuriated her by saying, she loves her cage. She's not Gabriel who can admit that when he told himself he was setting a good example was really just acting out of fear.

her daughter, meanwhile, doesn't even have any of Elizabeth's excuses. Other characters who worked for the Soviets always had reasons I could understand. Paige just seems like she likes her mom and Claudia's fantasies she' wants to fight for a fantasy USSR too. That's another thing it seems like Elizabeth would have to face in the end--and maybe Claudia too. You have to wonder when your ideology is an easier sell to the ignorant American than the woman who's lived in the system this whole time.

I mean, I do think they've tried to show from the beginning that Paige has inherited Elizabeth's ideologue personality, but it's insulting how often they seem to conflate this as a sign of a Russian soul.

[SlovakPrincess]

23 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

her daughter, meanwhile, doesn't even have any of Elizabeth's excuses. Other characters who worked for the Soviets always had reasons I could understand. Paige just seems like she likes her mom and Claudia's fantasies she' wants to fight for a fantasy USSR too. That's another thing it seems like Elizabeth would have to face in the end--and maybe Claudia too. You have to wonder when your ideology is an easier sell to the ignorant American than the woman who's lived in the system this whole time.

I mean, I do think they've tried to show from the beginning that Paige has inherited Elizabeth's ideologue personality, but it's insulting how often they seem to conflate this as a sign of a Russian soul.

Yeah, I don't understand how Paige has somehow "inherited" Elizabeth's true-believer-in-the-cause nature.  Unlike Elizabeth's childhood of poverty and fear, Paige has no real frame of reference for it, and it's not like Elizabeth has been shown as being particularly warm as a mom.  

Paige also seems to be constantly watching TV (since she has no friends), so it's not like she wouldn't have conflicting sources other than her mother's tales of the wonderful, meaningful USSR and how USA is actually bad and entitled.  She just ... doesn't seem that interested in developing her own opinions. 

I would actually appreciate a scene where Elizabeth wakes Philip up in the middle of the night, and whispers anxiously "do you think maybe Paige is actually not that bright??"  

Edited March 25, 2018 by SlovakPrincess

[sistermagpie]

51 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Yeah, I don't understand how Paige has somehow "inherited" Elizabeth's true-believer-in-the-cause nature.  Unlike Elizabeth's childhood of poverty and fear, Paige has no real frame of reference for it, and it's not like Elizabeth has been shown as being particularly warm as a mom.  

To me, the nature part makes sense. It seems like it's a personality that seeks outside authority and and prefers to let that do her thinking. And she wants to feel morally upright, if she can't be superior. Wants to save the world but does't much like people. She wasn't raised as part of that sort of thing like Elizabeth was, but the first time she stumbled on anything close she fell into its arms like a long-lost love.

There's a big difference with Elizabeth because with Elizabeth, like you say, there's a lot of outside factors as well. She had good reason to fear rejection by a post-WWII Soviet mother and state--especially in her early years, even before she had traumatic experiences and training to reinforce all that. It's what everyone believed or said they believed when she was growing up.

With Paige it seems stripped down to just the personality. Elizabeth just has to ignore stuff like the Soviets taking a disease she justified stealing because the US were evil enough to use it against the USSR when it conflicts with the values she was taught. Paige is willing to throw out a lot of values she grew up with, seemingly because the lure of being in a Special Group is so strong. I actually won't be surprised if they don't even show it being a hard choice for her to betray her country. If she was a guy in the Internet age she might have found what she was looking for the alt-right.

I would at least like it if the conflict in the USSR makes it more obvious to Paige that she's not actually Russian.

 

The thing also is that Paige being drawn to this, to me, seems to cast both their views in an unflattering light. Because with Elizabeth she had these views drilled into her from an early age and grew up in the ruins of WWII. She just ignores any new information that's come up since then. With Paige even that's stripped away and it seems like what we're left with is purely the psychological stuff. Only Elizabeth's fears of being rejected and punished by post-WWII Soviet mother and state have been replaced by a fear of...not being secretly special? Not feeling connected to some secret international group of people who are superior?

[sistermagpie]

From the Media thread:
 

Quote

 

Slovak Princess

I think Elizabeth never really had a choice, and her staunch loyalty to the cause is partly, subconsciously, her attempt to feel she has control over her life.  Paige has more control over her own life, but acts like she has no choices, partly because of Elizabeth and Philip putting the burden of their real life on her, and partly because she's confused and young, but mostly because she's basically spineless.

 

What a great way of putting it--that so nails it. There's times through the series where I think we see Elizabeth doing exactly this. When she was pregnant with Henry she didn't tell Philip so she could hold onto the idea she could abort. Gabriel tells us she rejected the first man they paired her with. I took both those things as Elizabeth giving herself the feeling of choice. She knew she was going to follow the Centre's orders, but found ways of making it her own choice. She was also the one who decided when to have children after putting it off for years.  Elizabeth genuinely doesn't believe she has a choice for good reason.

But I'd never thought of the opposite with Paige. She, I think, rejects all of Philip's attempts to tell her that she's not doomed to a world defined by her parents. She was already saying she was overwhelmed by her "crazy life" in S2 when she went to the church. For all she knew early on that it was wrong for her to have to go to church when she didn't want to, she ultimately was attracted to the simplicity of it. When Elizabeth and Philip sent Pastor Tim away Paige absolutely had the choice to start over and find a way of reconciling her dangerous knowledge with being her own person. Instead she chose to keep doing the same thing. I wouldn't be surprised if at some point Paige makes it clear she also simply blames her parents for this, and Pastor Tim or whoever. He said she was screwed up, after all.

[Umbelina]

I answered it in the other thread, but I do just want to say one thing here.

I don't think Elizabeth's dreams for the world are "stupid."  I do think they were idealistic.  We all know they failed (so far) and that Elizabeth was willing to do whatever she was ordered to do, because she steadfastly and in many cases deliberately blind made herself believe that it was all for the greater good.

At the heart of it, Elizabeth wasn't just fighting for her country to rule the world.  She was fighting for the ideals of eliminating hunger, war, and class consciousness, and most of all, the redistribution of wealth and power to equalize, at least in the areas of money and power, all people.  Basically to stop the 1% from using the 99% to make only a very few extremely powerful and wealthy, at the expense of everyone else.

She was indoctrinated into the ideals, and trained in the necessary tools, bloody as they were, to overturn a system that is inherently ridiculous.  Why does nearly the entire population of the world submit to the whims of a few, die for them, starve for them, envy them?  It's the same reason she dislikes religion "the opium of the masses" promising them a great afterlife, so ignore what you are actually living.  She wants a Bolshevik style revolution to take place world wide.

In some ways, that became her own religion, a belief that it could happen, if she, and others, would just endure the birth pains, and keep pushing, someday, a better world would be born.

[sistermagpie]

Yes it seems like the show itself makes it clear that this isn't even a disagreement about what she believes in. Philip and Oleg and Arkady have the same beliefs. The difference is that they are more pragmatic and believe their superiors are capable of betraying the goal. Elizabeth believes it's wrong for her to make those calls.

Also she doesn't seem to question whether she herself could be betraying those goals. Where as they openly do that.

Edited March 31, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

10 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes it seems like the show itself makes it clear that this isn't even a disagreement about what she believes in. Philip and Oleg and Arkady have the same beliefs. The difference is that they are more pragmatic and believe their superiors are capable of betraying the goal. Elizabeth believes it's wrong for her to make those calls.

Also she doesn't seem to question whether she herself could be betraying those goals. Where as they openly do that.

I wonder. 

I think by this time both Arkady and Oleg know the cause is hopeless.  They deal with the realities every day, and they both know the USA very well.

Right now, I think they just don't want the USSR bombed to oblivion by the USA. 

They seem to be more in a fight for actual survival than for survival of the socialist dream.

I don't know about Philip, I think he may know it's hopeless on some level, but he has only heard stories about the USSR, stories he listened to, paid attention to, but he hasn't lived it.  He seems to be more on a personal quest for understanding and clarity.  I really hope we get his childhood backstory.  If all the memories do flood back?  He will be on a collision course with Elizabeth's idealism. 

Nothing could knock the idealism out of you like growing up in a Gulag.  We've only seen him as a young child there, but as I said, most who were there, as prisoners or low level guards or families of either?  Didn't have the means to leave, or anywhere to go.  So, he could have very well been in a Gulag town until the KGB snapped him up.  Also, much like I wonder why Paige hasn't read or investigated more?  I do wonder, with Gabe's revelation to him last season about his father being a Gulag guard?  Would Philip read The Gulag Archipelago?  The other books? 

I think he would, and we may find out he has, during the 3 lost years.

[SusanSunflower]

Don't forget that in the post-war era, there were good years, bad years, better years and alway both optimism (rather than just "hope") that things would improve with better engineering and the belief that progress was being thwarted, undermined, sabotaged by the USA.  Often this was true-enough, but it helped keep hope alive (that without obstruction things might advance as they should have -- and the (bad) planning was not the reason for failure). 

As a young boomer American, I was always skeptical that the Soviet Union and communism represented a genuine threat (beyond having nuclear weapons they might be incited to use).  The Soviets (rather as China is doing with one bridge one road currently) attempted to build an necklace of beholden-on-Russian-aid new communist states both a markets and allies ... the idea that these impoverished 3rd world countries "going communist" emperiled the USA also seemed far fetched.   (Most of all, I've never seen how capitalism has ever dragged any backward undeveloped country into the 20th century (full stop) but more importantly without turning them into corrupt often strong-man republics (see South America regimes America supported) in which most people (peasants) lived in want and poverty without even hope of things getting better as government control expanded to uphold such tyranny and to protect the profits of the (often American) large industries, bananas or mineral exports or sugar.  

Look at Afghanistan and the rebuilding of Iraq where free market capitalism and deep pocket American interests have had a free-hand to improve things .... glacial, but the corruption keeps growing because foreign money  is being thrown around ... and unemployment is staggering .... nuff ... sorry for the rant, but I always thought our standard of living was all the advertising we really needed. 

Edited March 31, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Umbelina]

The very idea of socialism was a threat to the powerful, hell, even unions threatened them, and it's taken decades, but now they've even got many people believing that unions are bad for the USA!

Screw outlawing child labor, or decent wages, or safety measures.  Those damn unions bankrupted us! 

Ahem.

Meanwhile, those who profit from wars, from weapons, and from keeping the working class working, for lower and lower wages?  Yes, they were threatened, and they used their money and power to maintain their positions.  If that means destroying entire countries for oil, or diamonds?  So what?  If that means exporting jobs to countries that allow 14 hour workdays for pennies, or employ children?  Hey!  More money for them!

The Russian revolution terrified them.

Bernie and FDR also terrified them.  Controls on banking still terrify them.  Unions still terrify them.  It's all still happening.

s'all good man.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Umbelina

[SusanSunflower]

yes, our "standard of living" now 50 years later is no longer enviable or proof of our superiority (except for some in the abstract, and the very wealthy many of whom inherited at least a nest egg ... the sort of seed capital most never accrue. 

[sistermagpie]

47 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

They seem to be more in a fight for actual survival than for survival of the socialist dream.

Oh, I agree. They might think it's hopeless but they would still like it to be true, if that makes sense. They're not going to do nothing until it can be perfect. They want to improve things now and aren't going to just believe that if they let the corruption continue for a while it'll suddenly be great.

[scrb]

I think she became very loyal when her mother and her were alone after the war took her father.

Of course her mother probably had to do sexual favors to get little scraps of food.

You don't see her ever repeating the clumsy Soviet propaganda in a way that would make viewers' eyes roll.  I think the show did that  to make her sympathetic or at least not be turned off her.

But she had to internalize some of it or at least repeat it like today's political pundits did on TV when she was challenged on the righteousness of her cause.

For instance, the stuff she told Paige about how she believed she was working for the cause of a better world.  When she recruited Americans, particularly the black Americans, I'm sure she didn't spout all that idealistic stuff.  Soviets tried to exploit the discontent or feeling of injustice that blacks felt, even as the country struggled to pass the Civil Rights Act.

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, scrb said:

Of course her mother probably had to do sexual favors to get little scraps of food.

Interestingly, the one scene we see of this has her mother refusing to do this. A guy brings a whole box he's stolen to their apartment and the mother refuses it, explaining to Elizabeth that you can't let other people help you that way because then you owe them. The guy's basically offering to take care of her and Elizabeth and she's rejecting him.

She says her mother was a party secretary and cleaned houses, so I could believe that her mother didn't go that route. It's hard to tell, though. Elizabeth's living space always looks quite nice in the flashbacks. Her home life seems stable and secure, if hard. As opposed to the first glimpse we got of Philip's childhood where you couldn't help but be struck by how harsh it looked.

[Umbelina]

Anyone that lived through WWII made compromises to survive starvation, and I believe I checked and Elizabeth's mom's town was also under occupation, so faced things similar to Lenningrad's blockade.   (which were horrifying, and did include some cannibalism and eating any and every animal they could find.  Many starved to death, and froze to death, etc.)

Edited March 31, 2018 by Umbelina

[Erin9]

Elizabeth’s early life looks like paradise next to Philip’s. One of many reasons I’d like know more about  his early life.  It’s very easy to see why he gravitated to the nice things in America moreso than Elizabeth. Personality differences aside, he grew up with literally nothing. 

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Anyone that lived through WWII made compromises to survive starvation, and I believe I checked and Elizabeth's mom's town was also under occupation, so faced things similar to Lenningrad's blockade. 

I wonder if they were evacuated during the war. 

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I wonder if they were evacuated during the war. 

I doubt it, most weren't and I think her city was occupied very early on, conquered and occupied, probably not freed up until around the German defeat at Stalingrad.  ?

I won't swear by that though, but I'm at around 92% about that, and no, the Germans were not kind to Russian citizens, at all.  Soviets were ruthless with them, so the Germans returned that favor. 

Edited March 31, 2018 by Umbelina

[SlovakPrincess]

From Elizabeth's perspective, she still thinks this thing is going in the right direction.  Yes, the fight is hard and on some level she knows things aren't great from a quality-of-life perspective in the USSR ... but they're a lot better than they were when she was a kid living through the war or during Stalin's purges, and she thinks some of information she's obtained and sent back home is ultimately going to help.  

Oleg and Arkady may still feel on some level that communism is a good ideal (though they both have had it pretty good, wealth-wise, so they don't realize the irony of the inequality that actually exists) .... but they've come to believe the current way of trying to achieve it in the USSR is corrupt and not working.    Basically, once they got screwed by the system (or saw people they liked get screwed), they became jaded.  Now they're ready for change.

Philip was always skeptical and just trying to survive.  So he was always more open to thinking some parts of the American way of life are not so bad.

Gabriel was tired and broken down and cynical about his career by the end of his story arc ... but he hadn't turned his back on communism, he just felt the orders didn't always make sense and wanted to go home and rest already.  

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I doubt it, most weren't and I think her city was occupied very early on, conquered and occupied, probably not freed up until around the German defeat at Stalingrad.  ?

 

I wonder if her mother's life was very different during that time than times when Elizabeth was old enough to remember. The place would still be torn up, but so far she doesn't seem to have memories that point to her mother having to do anything like that. She could just not think about them, but so far that doesn't seem to be a driving force. (And at this point it'd be annoying if we got a whole new set of issues for Elizabeth while still ignoring the kid in the gulag!)

5 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Gabriel was tired and broken down and cynical about his career by the end of his story arc ... but he hadn't turned his back on communism, he just felt the orders didn't always make sense and wanted to go home and rest already.  

And maybe more importantly he'd realized that a lot of the times he told himself he was acting for the greater good he was acting out of fear. It seems like when he got back to the USSR he started trying to make amends to people Philip wanted to take care of, specifically by giving them family to love.

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I wonder if her mother's life was very different during that time than times when Elizabeth was old enough to remember. The place would still be torn up, but so far she doesn't seem to have memories that point to her mother having to do anything like that. She could just not think about them, but so far that doesn't seem to be a driving force. (And at this point it'd be annoying if we got a whole new set of issues for Elizabeth while still ignoring the kid in the gulag!)

And maybe more importantly he'd realized that a lot of the times he told himself he was acting for the greater good he was acting out of fear. It seems like when he got back to the USSR he started trying to make amends to people Philip wanted to take care of, specifically by giving them family to love.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Smolensk_(1941)

Here's the wiki about Elizabeth's city and WWII, they were attacked VERY early on, and the Germans were so much better equipped, since Stalin had believed the treaty with Germany, and hadn't prepared much.  I read a bunch of other stuff, and even found some Youtubes about Smolensk, but the wiki article gives you some idea.  It also throws a great deal of light on Elizabeth's "traitor, coward" daddy.  As I said before, and retreat or surrender, which is a pretty common thing in modern warfare strategically?  According to Stalin was both treason and cowardly, and those soldiers would be shot by their own troops.  If surrounded, out of ammo, facing a tank, and you ran for cover?  You would be killed either way. 

https://networks.h-net.org/node/22277/reviews/60804/walke-cohen-smolensk-under-nazis-everyday-life-occupied-russia 

Life under German occupation.  Smolensk is detailed. 

Quote

Smolensk occupies a central place in Russian and Soviet historiography and cultural imagination. The site of one of the largest battles during Napoleon’s Russian campaign during which more than thirty thousand soldiers fell, the city and its population were immortalized in Leo Tolstoy’s War and Peace (1869), an expected read for Russians who thus in many ways identify with the city and its history of invasion, resistance, and resurrection. World War II continued this history, when German troops captured the city in July 1941 and fought off Soviet counteroffensives until the city’s liberation in September 1943. However, the continuous battles between Soviet troops and German-occupying forces around Smolensk enabled the defense of Moscow, the Soviet capital, by slowing down the encroaching army. Historically, the capture of Smolensk often preceded the capture of the capital, thus the site was of crucial military importance, for German armies as for previous invaders. Cohen’s work helps us to understand how such strategic military significance impacts the life of an urban population.

So, if I'm remembering Elizabeth's birth year correctly?  She was born while the city was occupied.  ??

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/world-war-ii/20-amazing-photos-battle-smolensk-1941.html

Photos of the Battle of Smolensk.

In 1985 Smolensk was declared a "Hero City" I wonder if Elizabeth ever knew? 

If you speak Russian, there are a ton of videos up about Smolensk, I haven't found any with subtitles, but lots of historical footage as well, from Elizabeth's childhood.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=смоленск+1941+год.+оккупация+with+english+translation

Edited March 31, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

Thanks! When I think about it I think I always picture that movie Cranes are Flying. There's a guy there who dies at Smolensk so the family might not come from there before they're evacuated.

[Umbelina]

23 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Thanks! When I think about it I think I always picture that movie Cranes are Flying. There's a guy there who dies at Smolensk so the family might not come from there before they're evacuated.

something just doesn't add up.

Elizabeth was born in 1943, don't remember if the month was ever mentioned.  Smolensk was occupied from sometime after June 1941 until October of 1943.  How did her mom get pregnant with Elizabeth by the "deserter/traitor" father.  How would he even be there?  He wouldn't be stationed there when Germany was already in control of the city, unless he was hiding under the floorboards or something with her mother's cooperation, and later found and shot as a deserter, but who would shoot him for that?  Certainly not the Germans, they might kill him or ship him off to a work camp, but they wouldn't shoot him as a deserter.

Maybe Elizabeth's daddy isn't the guy mom was married to who deserted.

Or maybe the writers just messed up.  Or I am messing up. 

Ideas?

Edited April 1, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

Iirc there was always some weirdness there. Like she maybe originally said he died when she was 2 but also he died in a battle where that didn't work because she was born in 43. Which we know because of other ages and dates we have. 

It seems weird that she too would have a fake story about her dad. We know she was told he was shot as a coward which would be the shameful secret. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I've always seen E to believe that she is a real patriot for her country and that regardless of what she has to do, it's for the better good and that is the MOST important thing.  She has a fair amount of self preservation, but, I still can see her going down for the cause.  That's why I raised an eyebrow last season when they showed E lounging around her house, looking t her nice appliances, clothes, etc.  It was like she had become materialistic.  I just couldn't buy it.  

It will be interesting to see just how much E will sacrifice for Paige and if she will pick Paige over her country.  She is fiercely protective of Paige, but, I'm not convinced how she will respond to that kind of dilemma.  

[Erin9]

41 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I've always seen E to believe that she is a real patriot for her country and that regardless of what she has to do, it's for the better good and that is the MOST important thing.  She has a fair amount of self preservation, but, I still can see her going down for the cause.  That's why I raised an eyebrow last season when they showed E lounging around her house, looking t her nice appliances, clothes, etc.  It was like she had become materialistic.  I just couldn't buy it.  

It will be interesting to see just how much E will sacrifice for Paige and if she will pick Paige over her country.  She is fiercely protective of Paige, but, I'm not convinced how she will respond to that kind of dilemma.  

IA with a lot of what you said. But I buy that Elizabeth could have become somewhat  inadvertently materialistic. She’s spent her entire adult life really in America. She’s USED to these things now. I have some recollection of her saying that just because things are nicer and easier doesn’t make them better. Maybe not. But she has to have gotten used to things being easier and even nicer. It would have been an adjustment even as she tells herself it wasn’t better in America. 

I think it could easily also be Paige and Philip (in different ways) vs country. It’s hard to say right now what she’d do. Depends on the circumstances. 

[crgirl412]

I wonder what Elizabeth would think today of America.  I know it would all depend on if they stayed or go back home. 

I think if they stayed and she allowed herself to have a life here, she could've still worked on turning America on to Socialism/Communism in any number of ways.  Actually, she could do so much more for "the cause" that way.  Fast forward, I think in 2018, she would be pleased with the progress but knows there is much more to be done.   [btw, I don't agree with her]

If she went back home, she would be horrified at the reforms and hate them.  Somehow she would blame the West- the US specifically.  Maybe she would also be working to spread a more virulent Socialism/Communism to try to make more citizens have it be their "religion" like she does.  She would work hard to get rid of glasnost (openness) and perestroika (restructuring.)   She would also try to bring back all of the countries that made the USSR. 

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Erin9 said:

IA with a lot of what you said. But I buy that Elizabeth could have become somewhat  inadvertently materialistic. She’s spent her entire adult life really in America. She’s USED to these things now. I have some recollection of her saying that just because things are nicer and easier doesn’t make them better. Maybe not. But she has to have gotten used to things being easier and even nicer. It would have been an adjustment even as she tells herself it wasn’t better in America. 

 

I consider it a given that she likes her stuff. Why wouldn't she? It's like Philip said to her, liking all her beautiful shoes does not mean she's not good at her job. Philip likes his cars. That doesn't mean he wouldn't give up his car so that everyone could be happier. Elizabeth feels like she has to deny the slightest warm feelings about anything--the US, her nice house and clothes, her sources that aren't in on it like the Tai Chi guy. But it's just denial.

For me I always think of that moment way back in S1 when Elizabeth brings beer to Philip's crappy hotel room hoping he'll get the hint and invite himself home. She hands him the beer and then makes an apologetic "oh" sounds because she forgot a bottle-opener. Philip opens it on the TV and she laughs and says "Seems like old times."

Somebody laughed at me for reading too much into that once, but I still stand by it. In that moment Elizabeth was just a middle class woman who uses bottle openers to open bottles. It was Philip who was already back in the mindset of using the TV again. Of course she could adapt back as well, but this life is part of who she is now. 

5 minutes ago, crgirl412 said:

If she went back home, she would be horrified at the reforms and hate them.  Somehow she would blame the West- the US specifically.  Maybe she would also be working to spread a more virulent Socialism/Communism to try to make more citizens have it be their "religion" like she does.  She would work hard to get rid of glasnost (openness) and perestroika (restructuring.)   She would also try to bring back all of the countries that made the USSR. 

I was talking to somebody about the characters' reactions to modern Russia. I thought Elizabeth might get some satisfaction out of the chaos of the 90s because it would prove her right--like if they were no longer loyal to her cause they deserve their suffering. Where as Philip might feel more guilty or responsible for it, being that he'd have believed in the reforms and now he'd wonder if once again he'd tried to make something better and made it worse.

[SusanSunflower]

Gobachev might "give away the dead hand" but Yeltsin would appall her and it would be hard to reconcile the free-fall spiking the the government mis-management versus corruption or malign US influence dilemma.  It was pretty shocking ... not just how fast things fell apart (with plenty of help from fire-sale opportunists) but also how far ... I listened to this BBC report a few days ago about 1992  (very short) http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0634tz1  -- utter chaos 

[Chaos Theory]

People always talk about how Paige and Henry would adapt to “going back” to Russia but besides already knowing the language I think Philip and Elizabeth would have a hard time adapting as well.  Despite their best intentions they did “Americanize” thenselfs.  They kinda had to to blend in.  Going back home would be incredibly difficult under the best of circumstances.  Add to that the truth about Soviet Russia and my guess is P&E would not adapt well at all once the nostalgia wore off.

[sistermagpie]

Just now, Chaos Theory said:

People always talk about how Paige and Henry would adapt to “going back” to Russia but besides already knowing the language I think Philip and Elizabeth would have a hard time adapting as well.  Despite their best intentions they did “Americanize” thenselfs.  They kinda had to to blend in.  Going back home would be incredibly difficult under the best of circumstances.  Add to that the truth about Soviet Russia and my guess is P&E would not adapt well at all once the nostalgia wore off.

I think it's a known phenomenon that it's much less stressful to go to a new place than to a place that used to be your home and so should be familiar...but isn't. Claudia herself said that it usually took about 3 years go readjust. 

[Erin9]

@sistermagpie....agreed. I think she likes it. She doesn’t want to admit it. She’ll get on Philip’s case for being honest about liking it. But she does too.  I hadn’t thought of the bottle opener scene that way, but I agree with your interpretation of it.

I think they’d both struggle to adjust if they had to. I remember reading a review that asks the question- at point do you become the part you’re playing. Of course, they’ll always be Russian. But they’ve become Americanized to an extent. They had to. And home would be different than what they left- better and worse I imagine. 

[SunnyBeBe]

As we see E getting so frazzled, I do hope that she can come to a resolution.  Her brand of spycraft can't continue much longer.  She is on the precipice of universal use of video surveillance cameras, DNA tracking, digital phone tracking, facial recognition programs, etc.  Things she has taught Paige may soon be obsolete. I'm not sure she realizes that she should get out now.  Lately, it seems that she wants to go down doing the right thing (at least in her mind). 

[Umbelina]

Tiny possible spoiler in the front end of this.

I loved her talking about Elizabeth and also there is a bit on season 5 here.

[scrb]

Such disdain in her voice when she derided glastnost and perestroika.

She really didn't go into why she didn't want to be like Americans, though she has become more Americanized than she'd like to admit.

She could have mocked Philip's point about a Pizza Hut in Moscow.

[Umbelina]

She's been "going into why she doesn't want to be like the Americans" for six seasons now.  She's giving her life to her cause on a daily basis, and now with little sleep and very little rest between assignments.  She's willing to die for that cause, wearing a suicide pill.

No, she doesn't like what America is, or what it does.  She's terrified America will nuke the USSR into dust.  She can enjoy the lifestyle while still detesting the goals of the government and their actions.  She didn't need to spell it out, to us, and certainly not to Philip.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Umbelina
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[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, Umbelina said:

No, she doesn't like what America is, or what it does.  She's terrified America will nuke the USSR into dust.  She can enjoy the lifestyle while still detesting the goals of the government and their actions.  She didn't need to spell it out, to us, and certainly not to Philip.

Yeah, and particularly now. Because as Zhukov said, Elizabeth has a horror of "surrendering" to the enemy and she's very black and white about it. You have to be in 100% (like Pastor Tim also said about Paige). To her Pizza Hut in Red Square is surrender. It's American softness creeping in with their fast food replacing healthy peasant fare. (Even if that's actually already a fantasy in her head.) We're at the point where she herself is sacrificing just about everything--she no longer has her best friend/husband as a confidante, she's throwing her daughter into the same miserable life she was thrown into (even if she won't admit it), she possibly has very little connection to her son and her life has been stripped of any personal enjoyment. It's just work work work all the time. Murders every couple of days. And not for that much longer, because she's wearing a suicide pill.

And it's coming at exactly a time when the leader of her country and other Russians are obviously going the other way and allowing themselves Pizza Hut and baseball games and thinking they should be more open, the opposite of Elizabeth's shutting down. They're acting like everything about America isn't a creeping plague, as if America doesn't actually want to see the USSR nuked along with everyone in it. Even other people in Russia and Gorbachev have abandoned her.

It's not really that Russia culture sessions at Claudia's apartment are like a little taste of Russia. It's that that's the only place where Elizabeth is in a place where America is at the gates and they're the ones who are going to defend the purity of the motherland. 

Edited April 13, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Ellaria]

11 hours ago, scrb said:

Such disdain in her voice when she derided glastnost and perestroika.

...she has become more Americanized than she'd like to admit.

THIS. Elizabeth is exhausting and, frankly, becoming more and more unpleasant to watch.

[qtpye]

4 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

THIS. Elizabeth is exhausting and, frankly, becoming more and more unpleasant to watch.

The writers have forgotten to write her with any nuance, though Kerri R is still doing an excellent job.

Why should the audience care for this miserable character whose only goal is to "die with great honor for her cause"? They have sucked away her humanity and it is hard to feel for her since most of her misery is totally self-imposed.

Her superiors just see her as a pawn that will happily be discarded if caught. At this point, she comes off as a giant fool with no shades of grey or self-awareness.

Compare this with the excellent Martha arc. Martha also did some very stupid things, but we were with her all the way.

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Why should the audience care for this miserable character whose only goal is to "die with great honor for her cause"? They have sucked away her humanity and it is hard to feel for her since most of her misery is totally self-imposed.

 

What adds another layer to that is her preparing her daughter to take her place when she's gone. She herself seems to think she'll be dead soon but she's committed to using her last days to make sure Paige is set up for life too. 

I mean, if she feels like her time is short she might easily use that as an excuse to not work with Paige for a while, maybe secretly hoping that if she dies Paige might make a different choice. She could easily say look, there's this summit that's important, and I'm going to be using my usual team to concentrate on it for a while. Instead, nope, she's still devoting time to telling Paige how meaningful it is to be a spy, still carving out time to her "turn my daughter into myself" meetings. But at the same time she obviously has doubts because she keeps repeating to everyone that Paige's spy career will be different, which spurs on her commitment to make sure she's securely caged before her death.

This, even though when her own mother died she seemed to at least unconsciously be questioning whether the woman loved her given the way sent her away without pause. In the past when Elizabeth imagined she was facing death (when she thought she was infected with the bio-agent, when she thought she was walking into a trap with the colonel) she instinctively wanted the kids with Philip. I don't think those moments were entirely free of martyr dramatics, but still it shows a real difference that now it's more about holding Paige to her even if it pulls her down.

[qtpye]

20 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

What adds another layer to that is her preparing her daughter to take her place when she's gone. She herself seems to think she'll be dead soon but she's committed to using her last days to make sure Paige is set up for life too. 

I mean, if she feels like her time is short she might easily use that as an excuse to not work with Paige for a while, maybe secretly hoping that if she dies Paige might make a different choice. She could easily say look, there's this summit that's important, and I'm going to be using my usual team to concentrate on it for a while. Instead, nope, she's still devoting time to telling Paige how meaningful it is to be a spy, still carving out time to her "turn my daughter into myself" meetings. But at the same time she obviously has doubts because she keeps repeating to everyone that Paige's spy career will be different, which spurs on her commitment to make sure she's securely caged before her death.

This, even though when her own mother died she seemed to at least unconsciously be questioning whether the woman loved her given the way sent her away without pause. In the past when Elizabeth imagined she was facing death (when she thought she was infected with the bio-agent, when she thought she was walking into a trap with the colonel) she instinctively wanted the kids with Philip. I don't think those moments were entirely free of martyr dramatics, but still it shows a real difference that now it's more about holding Paige to her even if it pulls her down.

She is even asking Claudia, a woman she punched in the face, to "finish with Paige" if E does not make it.  What the hell! Claudia is not Gabriel...E knows she only cares about the bottom line. Is E really fooled by the kind Russian granny act?

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, qtpye said:

She is even asking Claudia, a woman she punched in the face, to "finish with Paige" if E does not make it.  What the hell! Claudia is not Gabriel...E knows she only cares about the bottom line. Is E really fooled by the kind Russian granny act?

Not only that but it's not even like Elizabeth's running Paige through the paces as hard as possible because she feels like she needs her to be ready so she won't die. On the contrary, she's hiding her mistakes--perhaps from herself as well as Paige. Even when she yells at her because she's upset that Paige ran into a scene where Elizabeth was looking like the psycho killer she was, she's still telling anybody who hasn't asked that Paige is really good at this stuff. 

For all she tells Paige that she put everyone's life in danger, she doesn't really seem to be motivated by that idea at all. If she was she would probably take her own line about how if anyone else did that they'd be gone more seriously. Instead she brushes off the concerns of the other team member who feels nervous about working with "Julie." Tells her she did a great job and there was nothing she could do about losing her ID while secretly murdering the guy to get it back. Doesn't tell her she got the guy's name wrong after getting a clear look at his nametag. Doesn't seem to have addressed Paige not just leaving her post but dropping whatever cover she was supposed to have by yelling "Mom!" 

She's lowering the bar for Paige to keep her in no matter what. Even when she disciplines her it's taking away stuff that's already special. For instance, not letting Paige sleep at home when she's scared. Most agents wouldn't have that option anyway.

Honestly, I'm not even sure what Claudia would be expected to do in terms of "finishing" with Paige. She doesn't seem to be learning any new skills like we saw early on with Hans. She's already on the job. She's not even giving her the advice she gave obviously-up-to-the-job Tuan about not being alone.

[qtpye]

36 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Not only that but it's not even like Elizabeth's running Paige through the paces as hard as possible because she feels like she needs her to be ready so she won't die. On the contrary, she's hiding her mistakes--perhaps from herself as well as Paige. Even when she yells at her because she's upset that Paige ran into a scene where Elizabeth was looking like the psycho killer she was, she's still telling anybody who hasn't asked that Paige is really good at this stuff. 

For all she tells Paige that she put everyone's life in danger, she doesn't really seem to be motivated by that idea at all. If she was she would probably take her own line about how if anyone else did that they'd be gone more seriously. Instead she brushes off the concerns of the other team member who feels nervous about working with "Julie." Tells her she did a great job and there was nothing she could do about losing her ID while secretly murdering the guy to get it back. Doesn't tell her she got the guy's name wrong after getting a clear look at his nametag. Doesn't seem to have addressed Paige not just leaving her post but dropping whatever cover she was supposed to have by yelling "Mom!" 

She's lowering the bar for Paige to keep her in no matter what. Even when she disciplines her it's taking away stuff that's already special. For instance, not letting Paige sleep at home when she's scared. Most agents wouldn't have that option anyway.

Honestly, I'm not even sure what Claudia would be expected to do in terms of "finishing" with Paige. She doesn't seem to be learning any new skills like we saw early on with Hans. She's already on the job. She's not even giving her the advice she gave obviously-up-to-the-job Tuan about not being alone.

 E has accepted this delusion that Paige will become a superspy who will get a nice office job where she will never have to murder or honey trap. She conveniently ignores that Paige is timid, weakwilled, not quick on her feet, or savvy.  Any other trainee who ran into the park and screamed out E's identity would have been swiftly eliminated. Also, why is Paige's wig game so weak? E is a chameleon that no one ever recognizes, but Paige always looks like cute little Paige wearing a stupid hat and glasses.

[SlovakPrincess]

This whole Paige-the-spy plot is going off the rails even more than I thought possible. Why is she doing ANY wearing of wigs and surveillance work?   She should be trying to get an internship in some government agency and sweetly asking Stan for advice and possible recommendations.   Then biding her time and working her way up until she can get a job with security clearances.  

I mean, I guess it’s so Elizabeth can have scenes with Paige and for drama! but it’s kind of laughable how terrible the Centre’s whole plan is.  

[qtpye]

On 4/14/2018 at 1:13 PM, Bannon said:

If she does end up getting captured or killed, fer' the love of physics, I hope it happens when she tries to put the muscle on some 200 pound guy, like a former hockey player who is the father of one of Henry's teammates, and he just chuckles, and turns her lights out with one punch.

I actually hope the opposite. I fantasize about E being told to assassinate some amazing Russian ballerina who is trying to defect and then being surprised when this tiny lady puts up one hell of a fight (think about a girl the size of Paige but much more badass).

On 4/14/2018 at 12:04 PM, sistermagpie said:

Although what's ironic about that is that it's only because Paige is American that Elizabeth is able to control the Russian narrative so completely. If Paige was a Russian she'd be part of the younger generation and quite possibly be more like those kids Philip referred to. Even if she still devoted herself to being her mother's mini-me she still wouldn't be some blank slate where she saw a Russia that only existed in Elizabeth's childhood. Remember when Paige was 13 she used to have her own opinions and express them even when they disagreed with her mother's. Maybe it comes back to that clip they keep showing, where Philip says they deserve to have a life and Elizabeth says, "I can't." She doesn't have a life, so she's not really experiencing the passing of time as life. 

Yeah, I thought that was a great moment showing how much she's calcified. She has to make America as bad as possible due to her own bitterness. And she seems unaware that she can't really hate all things American without hating her previous life and her children--and not just all-American Henry.

Then there's the even sadder fact that even Elizabeth's longing for the old country is probably put on without her realizing it. I believe there's some real nostalgia, but even if Russia wasn't thinking of Pizza Hut she no longer has any family there. She's no longer 12. Everyone has nostalgia for their childhood,but that's not the same thing as wanting to live in the USSR. It would be the same if she was longing to live in 1960s USA in 1987. No place is the same. The country of her childhood doesn't exist and it's not because of Westernization or America winning the Cold War.

In some ways that's part of the problem, because Elizabeth never ever has a problem killing anybody. Watching stuff like that in movies always makes it look easy in just this way, but in real life so many things can go wrong. I remember reading that Son of Sam originally tried to stab a woman and it's harder than he thought. That was a first time experience, but even with experience realistically stuff should go wrong. With Elizabeth it never does. It can't ever really be a struggle because she usually ought to lose that struggle. 

 

20 hours ago, Bannon said:

The Mischa arc was really screwed up, and pointless, it appears, and how he so easily ended up getting so close to dad pretty ridiculous. If it could have been developed better, however, it may have provided some interesting conflict. Imagine if Mischa had ever met with P and E (although I don't know how it could have been written in a credible fashion), and Mischa, upon hearing Liz go on one of her rants, had said, "Honey, if you think everybody is in it together, back in the country you haven't seen since you were barely out of childhood, you are clearly out of your class-conscious mind! Wake up and smell the beef stew!"

My friend's father came to the United States as a college student in the seventies. He went to an ivy league school and married and brought her mother over. The country that they are from is very conservative. They loved the US for giving them an opportunity for a good life, but they raised their daughter very strictly and their view of the country was frozen in time from when they left. My friend's cousins in the old country wore mini skirts and got to date boys because their parents were desperate to make them more "western". They were shocked and disappointed with how lame and conservative their American cousin was in comparison. They expected her to show them the way to be "cool" like Americans, but her parents rarely let her do anything unless it had something to do with studying. She also was not allowed to wear shorts and dresses had to always be modest and had to fight to date guys even after she graduated from college.

Edited April 17, 2018 by qtpye

[Bannon]

On 4/15/2018 at 8:39 AM, SlovakPrincess said:

This whole Paige-the-spy plot is going off the rails even more than I thought possible. Why is she doing ANY wearing of wigs and surveillance work?   She should be trying to get an internship in some government agency and sweetly asking Stan for advice and possible recommendations.   Then biding her time and working her way up until she can get a job with security clearances.  

I mean, I guess it’s so Elizabeth can have scenes with Paige and for drama! but it’s kind of laughable how terrible the Centre’s whole plan is.  

When they first introduced the Paige recruitment arc, way back in season 2, I envisioned some real dramatic tension, with an intelligent teenager who turned out to be a lot more skeptical, and resistant to indoctrination, than what her parents, especially her mother, anticipated.

Man, was my optimism ever hugely misplaced.

[sistermagpie]

52 minutes ago, qtpye said:

The country that they are from is very conservative. They loved the US for giving them an opportunity for a good life, but they raised their daughter very strictly and their view of the country was frozen in time from when they left.

Yup, and I think that's common for immigrant cultures. There's times where the immigrant culture preserves things, even, that the main culture loses. Paige wasn't the type of first-gen kid who was raised with parents who tried to shield her from the culture of the new country. But she seems like she's well on her way to being the American tourist who shows up in a country for a week and thinks she's a local because she's Russian-American. As summed up in the European Vacation movie, where Chevy Chase looks out at the landscape with tears running down his face saying, "There it is, kids. My homeland." And the son says, "Dad, Grandma's from Cleveland."

Not that there can't be some connection, but sometimes they're just annoying. 

45 minutes ago, Bannon said:

When they first introduced the Paige recruitment arc, way back in season 2, I envisioned some real dramatic tension, with an intelligent teenager who turned out to be a lot more skeptical, and resistant to indoctrination, than what her parents, especially her mother, anticipated.

 

That's the Henry version, it seems. I don't think that's just wishful thinking. Henry is consistently shown as curious but skeptical and not afraid to ask challenging questions. With Paige when you look back you see that they made her somebody who could be recruited by just about anything. That really was the idea of the whole church story. Elizabeth was right. She really could substitute something right in there.

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yup, and I think that's common for immigrant cultures. There's times where the immigrant culture preserves things, even, that the main culture loses. Paige wasn't the type of first-gen kid who was raised with parents who tried to shield her from the culture of the new country. But she seems like she's well on her way to being the American tourist who shows up in a country for a week and thinks she's a local because she's Russian-American. As summed up in the European Vacation movie, where Chevy Chase looks out at the landscape with tears running down his face saying, "There it is, kids. My homeland." And the son says, "Dad, Grandma's from Cleveland."

Not that there can't be some connection, but sometimes they're just annoying. 

That's the Henry version, it seems. I don't think that's just wishful thinking. Henry is consistently shown as curious but skeptical and not afraid to ask challenging questions. With Paige when you look back you see that they made her somebody who could be recruited by just about anything. That really was the idea of the whole church story. Elizabeth was right. She really could substitute something right in there.

And that is a really dull story to tell. Watch her have, out of the blue, a sudden bolt of insight with regard to what she has been recruited for, in the last few episodes. Or after being nearly written out of the show for years, Henry suddenly becomes central to the resolution. Did the writers give this any thought?

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, Bannon said:

And that is a really dull story to tell. Watch her have, out of the blue, a sudden bolt of insight with regard to what she has been recruited for, in the last few episodes. Or after being nearly written out of the show for years, Henry suddenly becomes central to the resolution. Did the writers give this any thought?

It might be also interesting if Elizabeth finally admitted this was a bad idea. Then they could go back to just admitting that Paige's story is not a spy story. She's not some up-and-coming agent. Her story is the family story. She's trying to figure out who she is and she and Elizabeth need to figure out that she *isn't* Elizabeth and can still be her daughter without joining her quest, which Elizabeth's lying about already anyway. 

They have time to establish something with Henry, at least. I will be disappointed if he finds out the truth without being able to work through it at all with his family, as realistic as that could be. 

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It might be also interesting if Elizabeth finally admitted this was a bad idea. Then they could go back to just admitting that Paige's story is not a spy story. She's not some up-and-coming agent. Her story is the family story. She's trying to figure out who she is and she and Elizabeth need to figure out that she *isn't* Elizabeth and can still be her daughter without joining her quest, which Elizabeth's lying about already anyway. 

They have time to establish something with Henry, at least. I will be disappointed if he finds out the truth without being able to work through it at all with his family, as realistic as that could be. 

Having Elizabeth conclude that Paige is doomed to fail in this vocation, with resultant fallout with The Centre, is likely the best option. Let's hope for some competent storytelling.

[SusanSunflower]

yes, I've wondered how Paige would/will take it when she discovers that "quitting" is not really an option ... "what have you gotten me into?"  and (broken record) that Henry (still, for now) has the freedom to do whatever he wants.  I wonder if big sis is going to enlighten Henry out of spite ....