S05.E18-19: Chapter Ninety-Nine/Chapter One Hundred

[CooperTV]

3 hours ago, smartymarty said:

He managed a hotel (much more interesting when Petra was managing) and liked working out? No personality there. Just hot guy.

His mother left him when he was a child, his father was emotionally abusive, his sister is addict that put him through hell (there's actually an episode in season 1 where Raf is so done with Luisa's behavior the only way the person who'd lived with an addict whole their lives would be), he has abandonment issues which colored his life for many many years, because he was convinced no one would love him the way he is (so he has to be successful, to have money to provide to his family, to prove himself in some way). Hell, even his work-out routine is explained by his post-cancer attempt to control his own body that had failed him already. He went to prison to became a better father for his kids, even if it cost him psychologically (Zen!Raf was damaged). His struggles to find his own path, to find a family, to be a better version of himself is what's half the show is about.

I mean, he's a male lead of the show, a complex, flawed, beautiful character that had beautiful journey.

[HeatLifer]

4 hours ago, smartymarty said:

S5 just had Raf acting pissy about Jane. I would have loved him had he been mature and trusting about Micheal returning, telling Jane he was confident about her love for him. But no, they had him sulk, a weird tangent into antidepressants, sell real estate no go back to hotel management.... ach! Nothing to like there except his abs.

It seemed like they always knew that in the end, Raf’s character arc would end with Jane being the breadwinner and he’s some stay-at-home dad who gave up his career for his ~family~ I just don’t think they did a good job with it, lol. It looks like a good idea —albeit generic story—on paper, but they missed so many beats in-between to actually SHOW us who Raf IS...not tell us. And they didn’t tell us much either. 

As far as S5, it would have been better not to revert him back to his angry, “kicking Jane out of the house in front of their son” self just so Jane had to “win him back.” Or even bring Michael back just so Raf could “win” over him. None of that would have been necessary if they again, truly SHOWED, not TOLD us, that Raf was always, from the first episode, “The Love Interest.” Especially in the face of trying to claim how Michael and Michael/Jane were so unimportant and just a road block. The fact that Raf needed further coddling about his relationship with Jane in the final season wasn’t just some telenovela back-from-the-dead idea. They clearly screwed up along the way. Should have spent more time actually showing us Jane and Raf. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[smartymarty]

51 minutes ago, HeatLifer said:

Especially in the face of trying to claim how Michael and Michael/Jane were so unimportant and just a road block.

Jane chose Micheal over Rafael and never seemed to regret that choice. Their relationship while it lasted never seemed wrong. So how were the viewers to see that -- at the time -- as an impediment to her and Raf getting together? I understand that in hindsight (and with Michael's personality changed to that of Jason) that that marriage was for who Jane was at that time while S5 Jane was ready to be with Raf, but it wasn't wrong at the time J&M married, so I never saw it as a road block. The J&M relationship was presented as so perfect that one would not think that they were headed for divorce. THAT would have made the relationship a road block: an immature Jane, say, choosing the wrong partner. But in the end I only accepted Jane being with Rafael because Michael was, first, dead, and then no longer Michael.

[smartymarty]

2 hours ago, CooperTV said:

I mean, he's a male lead of the show, a complex, flawed, beautiful character that had beautiful journey.

I was referring more to whether he was an interesting person, someone you'd want to date or be friends with. Flawed and with abandonment issues, seeking value through making money and muscles, is not very attractive. Funny guy, working for a safe community, likes animals and children, does impressions, outdoorsy -- that would likely get more interest on a dating app.

[HeatLifer]

24 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

so I never saw it as a road block.

Oh, I didn’t either; agree with your post. I do think Jennie is trying to backpedal and sell the idea that basically “we all should have known all along that Michael wasn’t IT; Michael and Jane weren’t IT” and that’s fine. She’s the writer, obviously. I’m just not sure I buy what she’s selling and I don’t even think on a certain level that SHE buys it. Which is 1) Why Michael was killed off initially, and 2) Why he wasn’t truly “Michael” when he came back. Like I said, I think the writers made a mistake in how Michael/Jane were portrayed if they wanted Jane/Raf at the end of the story. The way S5 panned out was attempting to fix their mistake.

Side note: I also feel like young Jane when she went to a romance novel book reading with a list of questions for the author about how the ending should have been better. 🤓

[funnygirl]

5 hours ago, smartymarty said:

Jane chose Micheal over Rafael and never seemed to regret that choice. 

Yet she was jealous as all hell when Rafael dated her cousin while married to said choice. 

In any case, part of Jane's growth throughout the series was learning to follow her heart and not be stuck on concrete plans, and that lead her to her passions - which includes Rafael, who she chose over Michael and doesn't regret. 

In fact, when she had the freedom to choose Michael again, even after saying bye to him in Montana and being turned down by Rafael, Michael wasn't an option for her because she no longer wanted him. She signed up for online dating instead. 

Edited August 19, 2019 by funnygirl

[CooperTV]

[CooperTV]

12 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

Which is 1) Why Michael was killed off initially, and 2) Why he wasn’t truly “Michael” when he came back. Like I said, I think the writers made a mistake in how Michael/Jane were portrayed if they wanted Jane/Raf at the end of the story. The way S5 panned out was attempting to fix their mistake.

They never made a mistake, they wanted Michael dead for a telenovela trope (back from the dead/has amnesia combo, like in The Passions of Santos plot, that is played out on screen on this very show). I think by killing him off the EP did Jane as a character a huge favor, as otherwise Jane would be forced (by the writers, of course) to cheat on her "perfect" man she thought was her "soulmate".

The fact that Michael was shot on their wedding day, the fact that Jane was more invested in Rafael's love life in general and in particular while being married to Michael, the fact that Michael/Jane first sex was terrible (even though they did bunch of stuff before that), the fact that Michael and Jane had petty financial squabbles all the way to his "death", the fact that Michael lied to Jane about his job, the fact he was jealous of Rafael while happily married to Jane and being his first sexual partner...

All of that was on screen for a long, long time. Everyone just refused to see what;s in front of them, and were pretending Michael was there to stay and was there to be a viable option for Jane and also thought this relationship was in any way or form "perfect". It wasn't. The writers  knew that, Jane in the end knew that.

Jafael was inevitable and was never going to go away.

[HeatLifer]

7 hours ago, CooperTV said:

All of that was on screen for a long, long time. Everyone just refused to see what;s in front of them, and were pretending Michael was there to stay and was there to be a viable option for Jane and also thought this relationship was in any way or form "perfect". It wasn't. The writers  knew that, Jane in the end knew that.

I don’t believe anyone claimed any relationship was perfect, not Michael and Jane, and certainly not Jane/Raf either. All relationships on TV will have a list of squabbles or detriments to it. 

As I said, IMO, I think they should have spent more time SHOWING us Jane/Raf than Michael/Jane if that was always “inevitable.” There was way too much time spent on flashbacks, their history, their present, hopes for the future, for example, for a couple that was never “viable” and a character that was “unimportant” and a “road block to Jane/Raf.” 

[cardigirl]

8 hours ago, CooperTV said:

They never made a mistake, they wanted Michael dead for a telenovela trope (back from the dead/has amnesia combo, like in The Passions of Santos plot, that is played out on screen on this very show). I think by killing him off the EP did Jane as a character a huge favor, as otherwise Jane would be forced (by the writers, of course) to cheat on her "perfect" man she thought was her "soulmate".

The fact that Michael was shot on their wedding day, the fact that Jane was more invested in Rafael's love life in general and in particular while being married to Michael, the fact that Michael/Jane first sex was terrible (even though they did bunch of stuff before that), the fact that Michael and Jane had petty financial squabbles all the way to his "death", the fact that Michael lied to Jane about his job, the fact he was jealous of Rafael while happily married to Jane and being his first sexual partner...

All of that was on screen for a long, long time. Everyone just refused to see what;s in front of them, and were pretending Michael was there to stay and was there to be a viable option for Jane and also thought this relationship was in any way or form "perfect". It wasn't. The writers  knew that, Jane in the end knew that.

Jafael was inevitable and was never going to go away.

Everybody's first sex is 'awful' or disappointing.  C'mon. I think it was somewhat realistic, after all the buildup for Jane's loss of virginity, to have it be disappointing a little.  And petty financial squabbles?  Jane was always fighting with Rafael about money, before he lost the Marbella and his source of income, and even when he was dipping into, or trying to dip into the kids' trust funds. Jane and Rafael FOUGHT ALL THE TIME ABOUT EVERYTHING. They were exhausting. And don't tell me that was passion.  It was just stupidity on their parts. 

As far as her being 'jealous' over Catalina and Rafael, that was more Jane not being able to keep her nose out of anything ever. Like Petra said this season, "since when?" when Jane told her she didn't want to get involved.  

I don't know that Michael was jealous of Rafael, he was 'concerned' about him, in that he had ties to a criminal syndicate, and shared a child with the woman he loved, so they were linked for life.  He was suspicious of him for a long while.  

Michael and Jane were clearly written and acted in a way that made a large number of viewers adore that love story more than the Rafael and Jane story.  Whether that was a mistake on the part of the writers or not, I don't know. 

Edited August 20, 2019 by cardigirl

[HeatLifer]

1 hour ago, cardigirl said:

Whether that was a mistake on the part of the writers or not, I don't know. 

Personally, the reason I think it’s a mistake is mainly seeing how Jennie has responded to her own work. And the “surprise” reaction she’s having to some feedback. Like, hun, if you put all the seasons together as a whole, Jane/Raf were apart longer than they actually dated! As a viewer, I don’t think that was a good idea if the main message was that they were OTP. I wasn’t sold because I didn’t get to see it.

[natyxg]

10 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

As I said, IMO, I think they should have spent more time SHOWING us Jane/Raf than Michael/Jane if that was always “inevitable.” There was way too much time spent on flashbacks, their history, their present, hopes for the future, for example, for a couple that was never “viable” and a character that was “unimportant” and a “road block to Jane/Raf.” 

I think there's truth in here. I don't think Jane and Michael were treated in a subpar way, on the contrary. I think, if memory serves me right, that while Rafael was always the endgame, they did do a very thorough love story with Jane and Michael. There was a lot of romance, a lot of "destiny" stuff, a lot of flashbacks to their beginnings, a lot of compatibility and Jane genuinely wanting to spend the rest of her life with him. While her thing with Rafael seemed to be some old crush that got heightened when she got pregnant with his child (at the time). Jane had her own life with Michael before the Rafael detour, and she went back to it fully. The idea was, I think, that they both had to grow before they were ready for each other (which was fine).

Then Michael died and Jane was devastated and mourned DEEPLY. For literal years. Michael was never the endgame, but they really did go there, in my opinion. Which I think worked fine and they should have left it alone. It was bringing Michael back to destroy him and his past with Jane that ruined it all, and wasn't needed at all. One after the other would've been fine.

[natyxg]

10 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Jane and Rafael FOUGHT ALL THE TIME ABOUT EVERYTHING. They were exhausting. And don't tell me that was passion.  It was just stupidity on their parts. 

Yeah, if we go by that then Rafael's reaction to Michael's return and his zero support and understanding of Jane during the first half of season five (and his tantrums) is enough to say that the writers were telling us that they were not meant to be.

For me, I always knew they were meant to be because of how the show was set up. They were the two protagonists. I think Michael could've been a good match for Jane, but they weren't gonna have Rafael end with some random. He was too important. Him and Jane were the two pillars of the show. But I don't think their story had a lot of pow, as a love story. I can't remember anything remarkable about it. They should've used season five for that, now that they were finally together, instead of wasting time destroying Michael and making Rafael a whiny douche who sulked and didn't support Jane through a pretty huge thing that happened to her and instead broke up with her and she ended up almost begging to be taken back. Even then it was odd to see Michael being supportive and only wanting her to be happy, while Rafael was acting like that.

Edited August 21, 2019 by natyxg

[HeatLifer]

2 hours ago, natyxg said:

It was bringing Michael back to destroy him and his past with Jane that ruined it all, and wasn't needed at all. 

What’s sad is the only motivation for Jennie, it seems, was to make sure it was known that Raf wasn’t “second best.” Raf even had a line at one point (I think mid-S4) that went something like: “I feel like second best...even though I know we can’t prove it!” Then boom: Michael’s back so Jennie can “prove it.” Again, no need for that if it was something she had already written clearly....

2 hours ago, natyxg said:

They should've used season five for that, now that they were finally together, instead of wasting time destroying Michael and making Rafael a whiny douche who sulked and didn't support Jane through a pretty huge thing that happened to her and instead broke up with her and she ended up almost begging to be taken back. Even then it was odd to see Michael being supportive and only wanting her to be happy, while Rafael was acting like that.

It was also odd that Jennie believed  that Jane needed to prove herself to Raf, as if she owed it to him for ever choosing Michael to begin with. All of S5 seemed like it was a way for Jennie to “course-correct” her plot. The article on the last page said it best, it was Raf’s wish fulfillment. 

[CooperTV]

15 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

Like, hun, if you put all the seasons together as a whole, Jane/Raf were apart longer than they actually dated!

To be fair, Michael and Jane were together for two years, and she dumped him for his bad behavior and immediately got together with that guy she kissed once five years ago. And after that they were on and off, got married, then Michael was in hospital, then they had a couple months all to themselves (while they were fighting and Jane obviously was hang up on Rafael dating other women, while repressing that like crazy), and then Michael died. 

I think fans were always way over-invested in Jane/Michael when the show itself never was, that's why where all of those

1) "Rafael is just hot muscular guy, also he's boring" (this is super subjective, and building any theories of one pairing being better than the other on that alone will lead nowhere)

2) "Jane and Rafael are not built enough/badly". (That's called confirmation bias, and by default is subjective). Jafael has the strongest support in-the show and in the BHS interviews alike. It was called the definite endgame in season 3 scripts.

3) "But Jane and Rafael always fight!" (compared to Michael being Jane's doormat and lying to her about his feelings) opinions I keep on seeing.

All of that reminds me a lot of any fandom ship war, when fans are trying to spin a narrative by blatantly erasing events and connections between couple they don't like. It works better in movies/tv shows where there's a up-in-the-air love triangle, though (like Damon vs Stefan, Pacey vs Dawson, Jack vs Sawyer). When any engdame is obvious from the start (like Ron/Hermione, Jane/Rafael, Jane/Rochester, Elizabeth/Darcy, etc), then it gets complicated for opposing shippers.

I also don't think I want to recap all five seasons of the show to prove the endgame ship's legitimacy that was obvious from the first episode. I'd rather watch it for my enjoyment. Mostly because I don't have to prove anything, Jane (female lead) and Rafael (male lead) are married and endgame.

[cardigirl]

3 hours ago, CooperTV said:

To be fair, Michael and Jane were together for two years, and she dumped him for his bad behavior and immediately got together with that guy she kissed once five years ago. And after that they were on and off, got married, then Michael was in hospital, then they had a couple months all to themselves (while they were fighting and Jane obviously was hang up on Rafael dating other women, while repressing that like crazy), and then Michael died. 

I think fans were always way over-invested in Jane/Michael when the show itself never was, that's why where all of those

1) "Rafael is just hot muscular guy, also he's boring" (this is super subjective, and building any theories of one pairing being better than the other on that alone will lead nowhere)

2) "Jane and Rafael are not built enough/badly". (That's called confirmation bias, and by default is subjective). Jafael has the strongest support in-the show and in the BHS interviews alike. It was called the definite endgame in season 3 scripts.

3) "But Jane and Rafael always fight!" (compared to Michael being Jane's doormat and lying to her about his feelings) opinions I keep on seeing.

All of that reminds me a lot of any fandom ship war, when fans are trying to spin a narrative by blatantly erasing events and connections between couple they don't like. It works better in movies/tv shows where there's a up-in-the-air love triangle, though (like Damon vs Stefan, Pacey vs Dawson, Jack vs Sawyer). When any engdame is obvious from the start (like Ron/Hermione, Jane/Rafael, Jane/Rochester, Elizabeth/Darcy, etc), then it gets complicated for opposing shippers.

I also don't think I want to recap all five seasons of the show to prove the endgame ship's legitimacy that was obvious from the first episode. I'd rather watch it for my enjoyment. Mostly because I don't have to prove anything, Jane (female lead) and Rafael (male lead) are married and endgame.

Yeah, yeah, and for all that endgame talk, I never was emotionally drawn to Rafael's story. So somewhere along the line, his abs and lack of emotional beats with Jane failed to create a compelling love story for me to root for.  

The show was definitely invested in the Michael/Jane relationship, else why such a perfect wedding?  Why such perfect moments between them?  The most perfect kiss, the most romantic night of her life? Etc.?  Do not tell me there was no investment in that relationship because that is not true.  There had to be or it would not have engendered such strong fandoms. 

As I've said elsewhere, by the end of season 4, I was rooting for Jane and Rafael.  They had organically come together after Michael had been gotten out of the way, Jane had mourned Michael and moved on, and Rafael had grown up a bit.  They were starting to want the same things. There really was no need to break them apart again, and certainly no need to tell a large part of the fandom, one that Jenny and other cast members had claimed to care about, that the love story they had enjoyed, was false and silly and we are going to shred it.  Doing so actually had the opposite effect of making me want Jane to choose Rafael over Michael, it made me really not care anymore. It made me dislike Rafael a great deal. Which was a mistake, because that was not the result they were going for. 

It's too bad too.  I wanted to be swept up in the finale.  But instead, it was merely a gentle close.  

[wonderwoman]

a couple of final observations: 

was so pleased to see the writers acknowlede that while telenovelas and daytime soaps share many characteristics, telenovelas end with a hapily-ever-after, and soaps continue day-after-day, for decades.  

two things from earlier seasons have stayed with me: i think it was the first season when rogelio gave jane a car. at that point, he was so over-the-top that an escalade, or some other crazy expensive car would have been the obvious choice. but, the fact that it was a mini cooper, and that he had noticed how much time she spent waiting for the bus, revealed a great deal about his character. 

the revelation that alba had encouraged xo to have an abortion, revealed an unexpected, and for me, most welcome, aspect of her character.

that’s all. really going to miss these characters

Edited August 21, 2019 by wonderwoman

[natyxg]

11 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

What’s sad is the only motivation for Jennie, it seems, was to make sure it was known that Raf wasn’t “second best.” Raf even had a line at one point (I think mid-S4) that went something like: “I feel like second best...even though I know we can’t prove it!” Then boom: Michael’s back so Jennie can “prove it.” Again, no need for that if it was something she had already written clearly....

It was also odd that Jennie believed  that Jane needed to prove herself to Raf, as if she owed it to him for ever choosing Michael to begin with. All of S5 seemed like it was a way for Jennie to “course-correct” her plot. The article on the last page said it best, it was Raf’s wish fulfillment. 

And even those things were done so badly.  There was no lingering doubt in the show anymore that Jane still wanted Michael or Rafael was second best. So, there was no need to bring it up and no way to do it properly. It was a story that could only work if it was "needed" because then that could serve as a guide for the story itself. Instead, it was a story that had no logic or true north, it wasn't fulfilling anything or answering a question. That meant that Jane's confusion felt hollow and then her "choice" felt even more hollow... What was it about Rafael that made him the one over Michael? No reason, he just is because she's in love with him now, which we all knew by the end of season four. If Jane had been still on the fence about Rafael at the end of season four and Michael returned, then at least her "choosing" him over Michael could've been the moment when she truly made sense of her feelings and realized that he really was the one she wanted and loved, because of "x" reasons. But no, none of that.  I don't know if I'm explaining myself, but anyway...

To make matters even worse, when you think about it Jane didn't really "choose" Rafael over Michael, because JasonMichael was a weird hybrid who had lost most of the stuff that made Michael, Michael. So it was really more like she chose Rafael over a long lost twin of Michael's. They didn't even "go" where they really needed to go if they wanted this story to work. The amnesia bit was okay-ish in the sense that it protected Michael, because Michael could never fake his death and leave Jane mourning and all that. But when he got his memory back, he should've been himself, which is what actually happens in telenovelas, by the way.

[HeatLifer]

24 minutes ago, natyxg said:

To make matters even worse, when you think about it Jane didn't really "choose" Rafael over Michael, because JasonMichael was a weird hybrid who had lost most of the stuff that made Michael, Michael. So it was really more like she chose Rafael over a long lost twin of Michael's. They didn't even "go" where they really needed to go if they wanted this story to work. The amnesia bit was okay-ish in the sense that it protected Michael, because Michael could never fake his death and leave Jane mourning and all that. But when he got his memory back, he should've been himself, which is what actually happens in telenovelas, by the way.

What’s funny is the amnesia storyline is something that happens between the MAIN couple. And they reunite when he or she remembers, lol. Like, this story should have been Jane & Raf’s. And now that I think about it, Jane and Raf never had these huge life or death moments that are a standard in this genre. Michael and Jane did.

The whole story was handled shoddily, and it only had Raf in mind, not even their main character in Jane. Michael lost everything, his life, his memories, for years and Jane only reflected on this because it affected her current engagement and relationship. Why was Raf the only character that was important in this storyline to Jennie? Clearly her endgame wasn’t solid enough that she took a hammer to Jane, Michael, and Michael/Jane to solidify it. 

(And, you are right, ultimately Real Michael was gone, anyway, although MichaelJason was still a better man than Raf. Jennie screwed that up, too).

[natyxg]

3 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

And now that I think about it, Jane and Raf never had these huge life or death moments that are a standard in this genre.

Life or death moments, or true obstacles. Like I always say, my memory sucks (and I'm not going to watch it again, lol), but from what I remember their only "obstacle" was Michael and he was out in early season three. And you could argue that he was more an obstacle to Rafael, since Jane wanted to be with him at the time. Then after that nothing stopped them from getting together. After the jump it was all about how they were best friends. Then there was some light stuff when Jane's heart glowed again, but he was with Petra, but that lasted nothing. They got together when they wanted to. There was nothing organic that could create "epicness" because they had no real obstacles. It was just very mundane life stuff. I think this is why I never remember any Rafael and Jane moments.

[HeatLifer]

2 hours ago, natyxg said:

They got together when they wanted to. There was nothing organic that could create "epicness" because they had no real obstacles. It was just very mundane life stuff. I think this is why I never remember any Rafael and Jane moments.

It almost seemed like their only obstacle was waiting for “Raf to choose family over career” and “Jane to see that Raf has chosen family over career.” They didn’t really go through much else. Not even a typical telenovela “X gets hurt and Y is at their bedside.” Again, Michael and Jane had these moments. It’s weird.

Edited August 21, 2019 by HeatLifer

[CooperTV]

Link

[Simba122504]

On 8/19/2019 at 11:26 AM, CooperTV said:

His mother left him when he was a child, his father was emotionally abusive, his sister is addict that put him through hell (there's actually an episode in season 1 where Raf is so done with Luisa's behavior the only way the person who'd lived with an addict whole their lives would be), he has abandonment issues which colored his life for many many years, because he was convinced no one would love him the way he is (so he has to be successful, to have money to provide to his family, to prove himself in some way). Hell, even his work-out routine is explained by his post-cancer attempt to control his own body that had failed him already. He went to prison to became a better father for his kids, even if it cost him psychologically (Zen!Raf was damaged). His struggles to find his own path, to find a family, to be a better version of himself is what's half the show is about.

I mean, he's a male lead of the show, a complex, flawed, beautiful character that had beautiful journey.

Yeah, Michael had no backstory on this show. His brother disappeared mid season one and his juvenile delinquent past disappeared with him. Even his own parents exist to serve Jane not Michael the individual. All the other characters relationships with their parents is about their relationship history, not Jane.  They have scenes Jane is not in. Jane, Xo & Rogelio. Xo, Alba & Mateo Sr. Rafeal, Emilio & Elena. Rogelio, Rita & his dad. Petra & Magda. Luisa, Emilio & her late mentally ill mother (who never actually showed up but we know some things about her.) There's a lot of backstory among those parents and children. Anyone who claims Michael got even what Petra got isn’t being honest. Even Petra’s exes showed up and had history with her. Michael’s ex again existed to serve Jane not Michael and then she went to the same place Michael’s brother went to. Andie, I think her name was. Lachlan and Milos were colorful and were real characters. Michael was the only character who could die and it wouldn't affect the series. His death affects Jane but not the series as a whole.  Jane of course can never die while the series is still on the air. But killing off Xo, Alba, Rafeal, Rogelio or Petra would change things. From the pilot to the series finale. We seen years of J/R relationship play out. That's the longest relationship Jane has ever had with a man. None of her other romances lasted that long. He is the male lead in her story since JTV is her story first.  *Yep, Jane was jealous of Rafael being with Catalina. Even the creator said so*

Edited August 23, 2019 by Simba122504
Added something

[Simba122504]

On 8/19/2019 at 1:54 PM, smartymarty said:

I was referring more to whether he was an interesting person, someone you'd want to date or be friends with. Flawed and with abandonment issues, seeking value through making money and muscles, is not very attractive. Funny guy, working for a safe community, likes animals and children, does impressions, outdoorsy -- that would likely get more interest on a dating app.

Rafael actually would since he supports your dreams hardcore, he’s very good looking and rich among other things. The more money you have the more access you have. Even in the show’s universe, Rafael got laid more than Michael did which is why he was labeled a playboy. He’s been to way more places than Michael has. Put both on a dating app and Rafael would win no competition even though everyone isn’t the same and likes different things but Rafael has the realistic advantage. He would win on looks alone which is superficial but realistic. 

Edited August 23, 2019 by Simba122504

[cardigirl]

 

 

 

1

3 hours ago, Simba122504 said:

Rafael actually would since he supports your dreams hardcore, he’s very good looking and rich among other things. The more money you have the more access you have. Even in the show’s universe, Rafael got laid more than Michael did which is why he was labeled a playboy. He’s been to way more places than Michael has. Put both on a dating app and Rafael would win no competition even though everyone isn’t the same and likes different things but Rafael has the realistic advantage. He would win on looks alone which is superficial but realistic. 

Ha ha ha ha hooo ha ha ha, hoooo boy.  Based on your opinion, of course. So, Rafael wins because he has money (oh sorry, that's gone) and he's good looking.  AND GOT LAID MORE??  Hmmm. I see now what drives Team Rafael.

And yes, he supports your dreams, but not your beliefs, or your need to figure out your emotions or anything that might take away from your worship of him.  

[CooperTV]

On 8/19/2019 at 9:54 PM, smartymarty said:

Flawed and with abandonment issues, seeking value through making money and muscles, is not very attractive. Funny guy, working for a safe community, likes animals and children, does impressions, outdoorsy -- that would likely get more interest on a dating app.

Rafael, a handsome and charming man, a caring father, a friend to women (figuratively and literally), who supports women's shelters, who knows what he wants in life, with stable job and career perspectives, wouldn't ever be a popular viable option to anyone on any dating app. Now I've heard everything.

I don't think people with psychological problems, such as depression and abandonment issues, don't deserve to seek and find happiness and family. But your post seems to imply that, albeit unintentionally (for the sake of a fictional shipping rival argument).

Edited August 23, 2019 by CooperTV

[funnygirl]

Rafael absolutely supports Jane's beliefs. Just because he's not religious doesn't mean he doesn't respect that Jane and her family is. Sure, there are compromises to be had when it comes to THEIR child(ren), but even in episode 2 of this season when Jane said she was pulling Mateo out of CCD, Rafael says how Jane's religious beliefs have been a source for good in her life. 

And him removing himself from a relationship while the woman he loves needs to "figure out" her emotions because her not-dead husband came back is not a terrible thing. Far be it for anyone to put themselves first! He took himself out of the equation, and rightfully so, when he saw Jane waffling because he knew she needed to explore things with Michael. And, yes, he's allowed to be hurt and mad about that because they were on track to getting engaged and married and building a life and future together. But judging by their past experience, he had no way of trusting that Jane was going to want to stay on that path. Maybe Michael would've blindly accepted Jane putting him on the back burner because his only point of existing was to be Jane's lapdog - and let's not forget all of the gaslighting he did to Jane in season 1! - but Rafael actually has some self respect. 

Edited August 23, 2019 by funnygirl

[HeatLifer]

5 hours ago, cardigirl said:

 or your need to figure out your emotions or anything that might take away from your worship of him.  

I’m laughing bc they literally had to dig up Michael’s whole grave to make Raf feel good about his place in his relationship. Why is The True Love Interest threatened by such an irrelevant character who didn’t affect the canvas? 🤓

[funnygirl]

3 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

I’m laughing bc they literally had to dig up Michael’s whole grave to make Raf feel good about his place in his relationship. Why is The True Love Interest threatened by such an irrelevant character who didn’t affect the canvas? 🤓

Probably because Jane, in her resistance to grow up and let go of the "idea" of how things should be and instead allow herself to follow her heart, wouldn't STFU about Michael. 

[HeatLifer]

I can’t believe Jane wouldn’t stop talking about some random undeveloped dude with no abs. 

[funnygirl]

The best part is, after she started following her heart and let her self love and be loved by Rafael: her life had passion, her writing was better, and she was so happy and in love there was singing. ☺️

[Simba122504]

23 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Ha ha ha ha hooo ha ha ha, hoooo boy.  Based on your opinion, of course. So, Rafael wins because he has money (oh sorry, that's gone) and he's good looking.  AND GOT LAID MORE??  Hmmm. I see now what drives Team Rafael.

And yes, he supports your dreams, but not your beliefs, or your need to figure out your emotions or anything that might take away from your worship of him.  

OP mentioned past tense things. And since she/he brought up the dating app comparison. Realistically, Rafael would win and he would still rich if we’re going off both men being single. He only left the project with Chase because of Jane. He wanted her to have more free time to write.  Rafael is the reason Jane even starting writing. Without him, “Snow Falling” or the book that is the show doesn’t happen. Why? Because Jane was too afraid to put herself out there and he’s the only one who called her writer and truly believed in her.

Edited August 24, 2019 by Simba122504

[HeatLifer]

Michael supported Jane’s writing and believed in her. Like, huh? That quality is not exclusive to Raf.

And, oh, Jane the Virgin is actually Jane’s book? Damn, she spent all that time on Michael, wow. Bold choice.

[Simba122504]

22 minutes ago, HeatLifer said:

Michael supported Jane’s writing and believed in her. Like, huh? That quality is not exclusive to Raf.

And, oh, Jane the Virgin is actually Jane’s book? Damn, she spent all that time on Michael, wow. Bold choice.

Nobody supported her writing like Rafeal did. Nobody is more connected to her writing than Rafeal. Nobody. The series is Jane's book since each episode is a chapter and we seen her write the book that is the show. So Rafeal is pretty much the reason the series exist. Because his sister put his sample in Jane, Jane gave birth to Mateo (who is the reason the series exist) and Rafael is the only character who's tied to Jane's writing. So yeah he's the reason Michael even got a book. The reason Jane's life wasn't basic. So the rich pretty boy wins again. 

[HeatLifer]

24 minutes ago, Simba122504 said:

Nobody supported her writing like Rafeal did. Nobody is more connected to her writing than Rafeal. Nobody. The series is Jane's book since each episode is a chapter and we seen her write the book that is the show. So Rafeal is pretty much the reason the series exist. Because his sister put his sample in Jane, Jane gave birth to Mateo (who is the reason the series exist) and Rafael is the only character who's tied to Jane's writing. So yeah he's the reason Michael even got a book. The reason Jane's life wasn't basic. So the rich pretty boy wins again. 

Damn, and she only really started dating Raf until the end of the series! She didn’t write about it too much. Rich abs boy must have bored her that she spent more time on her love story and backstory with that skinny dude. Love it.

[Simba122504]

9 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

Damn, and she only really started dating Raf until the end of the series! She didn’t write about it too much. Rich abs boy must have bored her that she spent more time on her love story and backstory with that skinny dude. Love it.

Because he's endgame. Rafeal is first male character introduced in her story, so we know which guy is more important to the story.  The guy who was called her muse, romantic hero, true love interest. The guy who's one of her passions. The guy told her to write. The guy who was there for many major milestones in her life. The guy who was there when she got news about Michael's "death."  It could have been any character, but it was him. Her graduation, obviously the birth of Mateo, her parents wedding, her grandma's citizenship, her first book release, Michael's faux death, Michael's return, her grandma's second marriage, obviously anything involving Mateo, her friendship with Petra who was also Rafael's ex wife, the birth of her half sister, her breakthrough book, her first fling (which sounds weird), her father finally bringing the PoS to an American audience, etc. So she definitely spent more time on him than any other love interest. The pilot started with him as the male lead in her life and the series finale ended with him being the male lead in her life. Before she walked in the church to marry Michael, J/R get another "meant to be" scene and he even mentions her writing. Again, no other character is more connected to her writing than him. His words even help her write the speech for her parents wedding. Oh, and he was the one who told her to write anything which became her first book. Even got Michael's mom to read it after she told Jane to get lost. Jane's would have went in a totally different direction if faith didn't bring her and Rafeal back together. Yes, Rafeal is that dude. And he's so pretty too. Love it.

[HeatLifer]

Michael is so ugly! And poor. Do people like ugly and poor people? Weird and gross!

On a serious note, I think it’s unforunate that some don’t credit Jane’s writing to herself. Raf doesn’t get credit for her talent. He supported her like A LOT of characters did. It’s 2019. We don’t need to give the man the success of a woman’s work.

Edited August 24, 2019 by HeatLifer

[nilyank]

Jane always wanted to be a writer but decided to become a teacher as safe choice. The first time she met Rafael, he encouraged her to go for her dreams of being a writer but he wasn't the first or last person to recognize her dream and encourage her writing. She was writing since she was little girl with Alba and Xiomara being her first true fans. Any success that she has as a writer were due to her talent and her determination and passion for writing. I cannot recall a single person that loved her who told her to find another career option.

[CooperTV]

12 hours ago, nilyank said:

The first time she met Rafael, he encouraged her to go for her dreams of being a writer but he wasn't the first or last person to recognize her dream and encourage her writing.

In the show? Rafael is the one who Jane said directly, for the first time ever, that she sees herself as a writer. It's right there, in the pilot:

Quote

Well, it depends. Am I being practical or brave?

Practical.

I'm a teacher.

Brave.

I'm a writer? I have never said that out loud before.

Be brave.

This, right there, is why Raf is the one who supports and encourages her to be a writer, not supports her writing (which is a different thing). That's why. It is in the text. I've no idea why try to dispute the fact that it was constructed that way in the show that Rafael is the biggest Jane's supporter for being a writer.

Edited August 25, 2019 by CooperTV

[smartymarty]

On 8/23/2019 at 3:05 AM, Simba122504 said:

Rafael actually would since he supports your dreams hardcore, he’s very good looking and rich among other things. 

I was referring to personality. Being rich or handsome is not a personality attribute. Any life partner should support their partner's aspirations.

[Bouffe]

I don't know if this is the right place to post this... But I've been re-watching the series, and I am at S4E9 - the episode where Petra is starting to write her book, and Jane suffers from writer's block - and there is a not so subtle hint at who the narrator is! I can't believe I've never noticed before.

[LisaM]

Finally watched the finale and the cast episode. Teared up through most of it. Loved seeing all of the characters get happy endings. Particularly loved the Jane and Petra relationship. I was thrilled to see so many returning guest stars so that all of the people who played such key roles in Jane's life (except Michael) were at the ceremony. Adored the family photos with the giant extended family. 

I will miss this show and its terrific cast.