Regina, the Evil Queen: The Only Happy Ending Will Be Hers

[Mari]

If I'm misremembering, I'm sorry--but during the "Common Fairy" episode, didn't Regina make comments that indicated she had refused to go on their tour of the country?

 

And you don't marry someone, intending her to be a mother figure to your daughter, and then cut her out of your daughter's life.

 

You aren't maybe knocking on the door adjoining your new queen's bedroom on a regular basis, but you don't send her off to the dowager castle;  how can she mother your daughter from across the country?

Edited August 6, 2014 by Mari

[Camera One]

You aren't maybe knocking on the door adjoining your new queen's bedroom on a regular basis, but you don't send her off to the dowager castle;  how can she mother your daughter from across the country.

 

If anything, the fact that Leopold did NOT force Regina to go along on the tour of the Kingdom with them, meant that he let her make her own decisions and did not strong-arm her on that issue.  As you said, how could Regina be a mother to Snow if she was never with Snow?  

 

but during the "Common Fairy" episode, didn't Regina make comments that indicated she had refused to go on their tour of the country?

 

I don't think she said outright she refused to go.  She just said Leopold and Snow are always gone.

 

REGINA: [snow] sort of ricochets through life, telling people's secrets. She had my fiance killed.

TINKERBELLE: No!

REGINA: The only way I can get through it is that she and the king are gone all the time.

[KingOfHearts]

It's my understanding that both Regina and Leopold were at fault for their unhappy marriage. Neither one of them tried to connect.

[FavFable]

Its my understanding that Leo was a disgusting old man marrying someone that was young enough to be his daughter,someone that didn't love or want to marry him. But hey, as long as he got what he wanted, right.

Edited August 6, 2014 by FavFable

[KAOS Agent]

I think Leo is to Regina what Milah is to Rumpel in that neither Rumpel or Regina are reliable narrators of their respective spouses' motivations, actions or feelings. Unless we saw it onscreen, it's hard to accurately judge the truthfulness of any statements made by Regina about her husband. I wouldn't trust Snow's view of her father's marriage either. It's always going to come through the lens of the individual character's bias and with regards to Regina, it also comes when she is trying to manipulate someone into killing her husband, so it's very suspect.

[FavFable]

What about Cora's view? You know, her memory of the King falling in love with her and wanting to marry her. Years before Regina was even born.

 

Not sure of your other point. Are you implying that Regina wanted to marry the King after she saw her true love murdered by her mother? That she wanted to marry a man she had never met?

Edited August 6, 2014 by FavFable

[KingOfHearts]

We did see Leopold's side of it though in Fruit of the Poisonous Tree, and it was pretty coherent with Regina's story. From what we were shown, there is nothing to suggest that Regina wasn't neglected. I'm sure Regina embellished her sorrow and relished in her pitifulness, but I wouldn't say she was outright lying.

 

Of course when she manipulated the genie, that's another matter entirely. I'm mostly talking about the first half of Fruit of the Poisonous Tree, the end of The Stable Boy, and Quite a Common Fairy. In regard to the Milah comparison, I'd say Regina was closer to Milah in that her husband wanted things to stay the same when she herself wanted freedom.

Edited August 6, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

What about Cora's view? You know, her memory of the King falling in love with her and wanting to marry her. Years before Regina was even born.

 

Not sure of your other point. Are you implying that Regina wanted to marry the King after she saw her lover murdered by her mother? A man she had never met?

Cora's view is actually in mostly in Leopold's favor.  Is it squicky that he was willing to marry someone who was the daughter of his ex-fiancé?  Yes.  Blech.

 

But, the Leopold in those flashbacks was kind and fair.  Even when Cora was proven to be conning him and stealing from him, he did not arrest her--he broke up with her.  He didn't even really yell at her or call her names.

 

If Regina didn't willingly marry Leopold, who coerced her?  Cora was mirrored before the wedding, and a man who simply breaks up with the woman who was conning him and stealing from him isn't going to be upset if Regina simply says "My mother's missing and a close friend died.  I'm too overwhelmed with grief and worry to marry."

 

Apart from Leopold not being portrayed as someone who would force a marriage, Regina was related to the royal family of another kingdom.  She wasn't in his "jurisdiction" to order around.

 

And I think after Daniel died, Regina wasn't someone who thought love would happen again.  The Regina who was expecting to run away with Daniel and be in love?  No, she wouldn't marry someone for power or status.

 

The Regina that came after Daniel died?  She might.  She figured love was gone, and her mother had taught Regina by example that the more power you have, the better chance you get what you want.

[KingOfHearts]

 

If Regina didn't willingly marry Leopold, who coerced her?

 

I think Rumple had to do with her marrying Leopold. She planned on running away from the king after mirroring her mother, but she was stopped by Rumple, who wanted to begin tutoring her. He had to manipulate her to want to be queen so that her beef with Snow would reach a breaking point. If she had run away, his psycho he needed to cast the curse would be gone. It was when Regina gave into dark magic that she became power hungry.

 

Not saying in any way that Rumple forced her to marry him, but if he didn't intervene, she probably wouldn't have.

Edited August 6, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

Yeah, I agree that Leopold wins no prizes for Husband of the Year, but until Fruit of the Poisonous Tree and the potential affair, I see no evidence that Regina was a prisoner; she snuck out way, way too often to be any sort of real prisoner. Any prison she was in was much more of her own making.

Not saying in any way that Rumple forced her to marry him, but if he didn't intervene, she probably wouldn't have.

I agree, but if Regina's dumb enough to fall for it, that's on her. Edited August 6, 2014 by stealinghome

[Shanna Marie]

The age difference between Leopold and Regina doesn't seem any worse than Rumple and Belle. What I find odd is that Leopold thought that the daughter of the woman who lied to him about being pregnant with another man's child while he was planning to marry her and who stole from him was ideal mother material for his daughter. He knew Cora was a social-climbing schemer, but he wasn't at all suspicious of her daughter? As for the relationship between Leopold and Regina, we don't see enough of it first-hand in the early days to know which started first -- did Regina freeze him out when he tried to form a relationship so that he eventually gave up and became distant, or was he always distant so she felt frozen out? Considering that she married him mostly so she'd be in a position to get vengeance on his daughter, I can see where she might not have been giving off warm, fuzzy vibes that were conducive to building a healthy relationship. In fact, a healthy relationship was entirely off the table from the start because it's impossible to have a healthy relationship with a man while plotting to destroy his daughter (and while secretly training to be a sorceress so you can destroy his daughter).

 

We only saw the genie/Leopold's murder stuff from the genie's point of view. The impression I got was that Regina was writing fake diary entries and then "accidentally" leaving her diary open so Leopold couldn't help seeing it because that was all part of the setup. I'm not convinced he really was holding her prisoner. It was all part of the scheme to con the genie into doing her dirty work.

[Rumsy4]

 

Considering that she married him mostly so she'd be in a position to get vengeance on his daughter

 

I don't remember the details very well, but her plan to take revenge on Snow White took a while to be fully realized, with the aid of several proddings and nudgings from Rumple. So, I don't think that when she married Leopold, she only did that to take revenge on Snow.

 

I think both Leopold and Regina are culpable for the failure of their marriage. Just because Leo was upfront about why he was marrying Regina doesn't make it a kind, or even reasonable offer. He even admits to the Genie that he had neglected Regina. He was practically an idiot to marry the daughter of a conniving schemer. He also must have heard about Cora acquiring magic. (Out of story, that was a bad retcon by the writers).

 

Yeah--Regina totally played Leo and the Genie over the diary entries, and I absolutely do not condone her getting Leopold murdered. But based on what we were shown on-screen, I find it hard to believe that the marriage was a failure solely because of Regina. 

Edited August 6, 2014 by Rumsy4

[ShadowFacts]

I see it as a marriage of convenience, love and companionship not necessary (but would be nice of course if it became loving and companionable).  Regina didn't want it and was fleeing it, but changed her mind with help from Rumple.  That she didn't want the marriage and Leopold made an odd choice considering his history with Cora, pretty much made it a set-up for unhappiness.  But what we know for sure -- Leopold didn't do to Regina what Regina later did to Graham.  He came to the same end, though. 

[Dani-Ellie]

Yeah--Regina totally played Leo and the Genie over the diary entries, and I absolutely do not condone her getting Leopold murdered. But based on what we were shown on-screen, I find it hard to believe that the marriage was a failure solely because of Regina.

 

I don't think anyone was suggesting Regina was solely at fault, but I also think it's clear that Regina had her own issues and did her own deceptive things here as well. Neither one of them behaved the way a husband or wife should, and no matter their problems, like you said, Leopold didn't deserve to die. I'm not laying the blame squarely at Regina's feet, but I'm not comfortable with Leopold being vilified because he was upfront about what he was offering and how he thought was doing the right thing for his daughter, either.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Camera One]

I do agree that Leopold did not put his all into the marriage with Regina, but in some ways, it's consistent with what we saw with his marriage to Eva even though he presumably did love her (even though again, he married her also for practical reasons; in this case, being a marriage arranged by his parents).  

 

Leopold's priority seemed always to be trying to be a good King of the people.  He wasn't even around when Eva was deathly ill and when his wife and daughter needed him.  After Eva died, Leopold then even took Snow on his journeys around the Kingdom (which was when the horse incident took place).  So Regina wasn't the first wife to be "neglected".

 

Overall, I do agree Leopold was a horribly written character and from what we saw, seemingly contradictory though usually downright gullible and idiotic.  But when it comes down to it, Leopold wasn't intentionally trying to ruin Regina's life and having an unhappy marriage doesn't excuse conspiracy to commit murder, especially when it was clear Regina did have some freedom but chose not to take responsibility for her own happiness.  

 

I do feel sympathy for Younger Regina in some ways and I do think it's despicable that Rumple took advantage of her vulnerability and convinced her to turn back and follow through with the marriage.  Though frankly, I don't believe that she would have given what we saw.  When Regina was getting ready to run away, Rumple was tempting Regina with magic by asking her, "did it feel good?"  So was it supposed to be the beginnings of the addiction that made her turn back?  But she would have been able to learn magic without being married to Leopold anyway, so why did she have to go through with the marriage?  

Edited August 6, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

Just because Leo was upfront about why he was marrying Regina doesn't make it a kind, or even reasonable offer.

Still one she could have refused.

 

That said, I agree that both Leopold and Regina are at fault for the disintegration of their marriage. It seems to me that neither of them tried particularly hard at it.

[Rumsy4]

 

Still one she could have refused.

 

Not at first though, because Cora was forcing her to accept the king's offer. Leopold could have spoken to Regina privately and asked her if she agreed. But that kind of sensitivity was probably beyond him. He would assume that anyone might jump at the chance of being Queen. 

 

Once Daniel had died, Regina did try to escape, but Rumple stopped her. She was in an emotionally vulnerable place at that time, so I cannot entirely blame her for not being able to resist him. By the time Regina had pushed Cora into Wonderland, she thought she might as well go through with it, and enjoy being queen. Of course, one thing led to another, and soon she was committing mass murder and rape as though it was second nature, and she is wholly responsible for every evil act she committed. 

[Shanna Marie]

Having Leopold have been previously involved with Cora was one of the dumbest retcons they've tried, since it made him look both creepy and stupid to propose marriage to the daughter of the woman he dumped for lying to him and stealing from the palace so his daughter could have a mother. The only way that makes any sense is if Cora somehow put the whammy on him to make him propose to Regina. And it turned out to be pointless to the plot, so it was purely about furthering their agenda to victimize Regina and vilify Snow and her family by showing that Snow's family has been "wronging" Regina's family for generations, since that backstory didn't seem to matter to Zelena at all. She just cared that Regina got the life she wanted. I suppose the only reason the identity of the prince Cora didn't get to marry mattered was that undoing the past would mean that if Snow wasn't born, Emma wouldn't be born and Henry wouldn't be born, so Regina's motivation for stopping Zelena was slightly less selfish than if it had just been about making sure she wasn't wiped out of existence. Otherwise, the only thing that mattered to the plot was that Cora got knocked up and abandoned the baby because it interfered with her schemes.

 

By the time Regina had pushed Cora into Wonderland, she thought she might as well go through with it, and enjoy being queen.

But that's where she went into a marriage for the wrong reasons. Yeah, Rumple manipulated her and reminded her of the power she'd have, but if she was trying to run before she got rid of Cora, why couldn't she still run afterward? Or even just enjoy getting to stay where she was with her father without Cora to bully them instead of going into a marriage she knew she didn't want that would make her be stepmother to someone she resented and blamed for her unhappiness? At just about every single decision point in her life after she got rid of Cora, she chose the option guaranteed to make her less happy. Maybe that's where the fate thing with Robin comes in -- if she hadn't married Leopold, then maybe one day she'd have been riding in the forest and had a meet-cute with Robin and found happiness, or she might have met him before he turned outlaw (since we don't know his backstory -- in some of the legends he's a nobleman who has his lands and title stripped from him. If that's the case, then who did that to him?). Instead, she chose to do something she knew would make her unhappy and every decision she made after that just took her further and further away from happiness.

[Rumsy4]

 

But that's where she went into a marriage for the wrong reasons. Yeah, Rumple manipulated her and reminded her of the power she'd have, but if she was trying to run before she got rid of Cora, why couldn't she still run afterward?

 

I'm the last person to buy into Woegina's tears, but it seems too much to expect from a young woman in her position to know that she was entering into marriage for the wrong reasons. After all, what examples did she have? Her parents's marriage was horrible. Her paternal grandfather was a power hungry king. Her maternal grandfather was a drunk loser. And she never seems to have had the chance to acquire any wisdom from outside her family either. Once she did get married, she let herself become slowly seduced by evil and power. I think getting married to Leopold was a mistake, but not an egregious one in itself. It seems like setting too high standards to say otherwise. 

[KingOfHearts]

Regina's Evil Queen problems didn't start until after she got married. I'd say The Doctor was her cracking point after Daniel's failed resurrection. Before that, she was pretty impressionable, and frankly gullible. Marrying Leopold was a mistake absolutely, but I have no reason to believe she had nefarious purposes for it. Her and Snow were on sisterly terms before she got married to her dad - she even avoided dispelling Daniel's true fate to spare Snow's feelings. Her path to psycho began after she got married, and especially when she started practicing dark magic. 

Edited August 6, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Her path to psycho began after she got married, and especially when she started practicing dark magic.

I wonder if dark magic has some kind of corrupting effect on a person. Rumple seemed to have been a decent, if weak, man, but using dark power has made him into a callous bully. Regina may have resented Snow for what happened to Daniel, but she didn't go full-on psycho vengeance freak until she started using dark magic. Is that where the "dark heart" comes from? I wonder if Regina might actually start to get better over time if she really did give up magic. Then again, living for 28 years with no magic in a world without magic didn't cure her, but I'm not sure Storybrooke counts because it was a static environment and an artificial magical construct.

[kili]

Marrying Leopold was a mistake absolutely, but I have no reason to believe she had nefarious purposes for it. Her and Snow were on sisterly terms before she got married to her dad - she even avoided dispelling Daniel's true fate to spare Snow's feelings. Her path to psycho began after she got married, and especially when she started practicing dark magic.

 

Regina day-dreamed about murdering Snow before she married Leopold.  While it may not have been a happy marriage, she didn't commit to it either (

as the deleted scene "Father of the Bride" shows, she neither loved nor ever planned on loving Leopold. This occured before the wedding (she was getting fitted for her dress) and after her mother got shoved through the looking glass (she uses the past tense)

). The death of Danielle was the original catalyst for her turning evil and Rumple's manipulation regarding Danielle's resurrection pushed her the rest of the way.

 

Regina may have been in a headspace that was too warped after Danielle's death, but I wonder why her father never intervened. I have trouble feeling sorry for Henry Sr.'s death because at so many points, he failed to intervene or act when he could have helped Regina (and played an active role in some of her evil deeds like killing Leopold).  He was royalty. After Cora went through the looking glass, why didn't Henry Sr. go have a chat explaining to Leopold the situation? At least ask him to postpone the marriage for a few months for Regina to work through her grief. A decent father would have at least tried.

[stealinghome]

Regina may have resented Snow for what happened to Daniel, but she didn't go full-on psycho vengeance freak until she started using dark magic.

Actually, that's not quite true. In one of the pre-wedding episodes--I think 2x02?--Regina's already fantasizing about murdering Young Snow. She just still has enough of a moral compass at that point to be horrified with herself for having those fantasies.

 

Is that where the "dark heart" comes from? I wonder if Regina might actually start to get better over time if she really did give up magic.

It can't be, because 3x20 basically made it canon that the color of the magic you use comes from your own internal state. Regina was feeling True Love or whatever, therefore her magic is light. So when her magic (and Rumpel's magic) is dark, it's because they're psychopaths using magic to make their psychopathy easier.

 

As far as I'm concerned, 3x20 made it canon that magic doesn't affect a person's moral status. Rather, a person's moral status determines the nature of their magic.

 

I'm the last person to buy into Woegina's tears, but it seems too much to expect from a young woman in her position to know that she was entering into marriage for the wrong reasons.... I think getting married to Leopold was a mistake, but not an egregious one in itself. It seems like setting too high standards to say otherwise.

I agree with this, mostly, but while I can understand Young Regina making the mistake of marrying Leopold, I think she was self-aware enough to know it was a mistake and did it anyway. She was on that horse escaping to freedom until Rumpel interfered--and while I do empathize with the fact that she was in a very manipulable state, I'm gonna throw out that running away from a marriage means that someone recognizes that the marriage is a big f'ing mistake and something they decidedly do not want to do. Regina knew it was a mistake and let herself be talked into it anyway because she let Rumpel convince her that what the marriage offered outweighed its drawbacks.

 

(but this is also where I feel like the constant retconning harms the fabric of the story, because if Regina was so dead-set on not marrying Leopold, the fact that it took Rumpel .5 seconds to change her mind just makes the story incoherent and makes Regina looked weak-willed.)

 

I have trouble feeling sorry for Henry Sr.'s death because at so many points, he failed to intervene or act when he could have helped Regina (and played an active role in some of her evil deeds like killing Leopold).

The problem with Henry Sr. is the same as the problem with Leopold--they're not characters, they're ciphers who do whatever the plot requires at any given moment.

 

That said, while I think Henry Sr. was a major FAIL as a parent and I agree that he aided and abetted Regina in most of her crimes--no one deserved to die the way he did. Ugh. (ngl, Regina pretty much became irredeemable to me in 1x02, when she took her father's heart. To me, killing a parent is something you don't come back from. It's the same as Rumpel in 2x04--that was the moment he became irredeemable in my eyes, because killing your ex-spouse? Yeah, you don't come back from that.)

Edited August 6, 2014 by stealinghome

[Rumsy4]

Regina day-dreamed about murdering Snow before she married Leopold. While it may not have been a happy marriage, she didn't commit to it either (

as the deleted scene "Father of the Bride" shows, she neither loved nor ever planned on loving Leopold. This occured before the wedding (she was getting fitted for her dress) and after her mother got shoved through the looking glass (she uses the past tense)

). The death of Danielle was the original catalyst for her turning evil and Rumple's manipulation regarding Danielle's resurrection pushed her the rest of the way.

Anyone can be tempted by evil. It's what they choose to do with the temptation that counts. Regina's dark fantasy about strangling Snow was the beginnings of temptation, but she let Rumple fan the flame into something worse.

Also that deleted scene seems a very natural response to the loss of a first love. I remember feeling that I could never love anyone after my first romance went kaput. ;-) But that feeling didn't last forever. Regina's problem was that she never let herself get over her grief. She even preserved Daniel's body, for crying out loud! (Resilient heart, my foot!)

If people don't blame Leo for asking Regina to marry him in a marriage of convenience, why can't Regina decide to marry Leo and not plan to love him? They both entered into marriage for the wrong reasons.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Rumsy4

[stealinghome]

If people don't blame Leo for asking Regina to marry him in a marriage of convenience, why can't Regina decide to marry Leo and not plan to love him? They both entered into marriage for the wrong reasons.

While I agree that both Leopold and Regina were to blame for what happened with their marriage, and both got into it for the wrong reasons, I guess for me there's a difference between acknowledging that it's a marriage of convenience but seemingly being willing to make a go of it and have a companionable marriage, and acknowledging that it's a marriage of convenience but stewing and being determined to be miserable/only saying yes for the power. I suppose I consider one a "good faith" marriage of convenience and the other not so much.

 

Mostly, though, I have to say that what I take away from all the Enchanted Forest: The Older Generation stuff is that Snow inherited her terminal stupidity from her father. (Thank God Eva and Charming are there to balance out Leo and Snow's utter STUPID.)

[kili]

She even preserved Daniel's body, for crying out loud! (Resilient heart, my foot!)

 

I've always been puzzled how she managed to do that. She had no magic when Daniel was killed and it takes only a few days before the body is nothing more than a bloated mess. She specifically says when Henry loses his heart that she only has so long to perserve him and it will only last so long. 

[FavFable]

Yeah Snow's father was pretty vile. Hope he isn't in season 4, he becomes more repulsive every time they bring him back.

 

Yes I think TInkerbell knew Regina was in a bad place and she wanted to help her. The problem started when Regina didn't act immediately on Tinkerbell's reveal of her soul mate. To be fair, Regina couldn't just walk away from the King, he would have killed her.

 

I liked Regina's comment to Snow. It was obvious, but sometimes Snow doesn't clue into the obvious. I am glad Regina make things clear.

Based on their interactions in season 3, Tinkerbell tries to support Regina but the minute Regina doesn't do what she wants, Tinkerbell gets upset and walks.

What do you think Tinkerbell's reaction will be when she finds out about Marian?

Do you have any expectations of season 4? What do you want to happen with Regina's storyline?

[Camera One]

because if Regina was so dead-set on not marrying Leopold, the fact that it took Rumpel .5 seconds to change her mind just makes the story incoherent and makes Regina looked weak-willed.)

 

I agree.  In light of the events of "The Doctor", I think in that 0.5 seconds, in Regina's mind, she latched onto the idea that maybe if she learned magic, she could bring Daniel back from the dead.  That to me seemed to be only reason she was learning magic in the first place.  She almost acted like it was a chore.

 

I've always been puzzled how she managed to do that. She had no magic when Daniel was killed and it takes only a few days before the body is nothing more than a bloated mess. She specifically says when Henry loses his heart that she only has so long to perserve him and it will only last so long.

 

This is another example of a plot point that wasn't properly thought through.  Essentially, Regina preserved Daniel so we could have Zombie Daniel.  Since we need to draw in as many "The Walking Dead" fans as we can.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

While I agree that both Leopold and Regina were to blame for what happened with their marriage, and both got into it for the wrong reasons, I guess for me there's a difference between acknowledging that it's a marriage of convenience but seemingly being willing to make a go of it and have a companionable marriage, and acknowledging that it's a marriage of convenience but stewing and being determined to be miserable/only saying yes for the power. I suppose I consider one a "good faith" marriage of convenience and the other not so much.

 

I guess I give less credit to Leo than that. haha We have no evidence that he was willing to make a go of it and have a companionable marriage. What we do know is that he wanted a mother for his child, but we were shown nothing beyond that. 

 

Mostly, though, I have to say that what I take away from all the Enchanted Forest: The Older Generation stuff is that Snow inherited her terminal stupidity from her father.

 

That I do agree with! 

Edited August 7, 2014 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

Snow and Leopold - there is a difference between kindness and being naive. So glad Emma didn't inherit that.

Leopold was ignorant just for trying to marry Cora, imo. It doesn't seem like they were even together that long. He was probably looking for a quick escape route from his arranged marriage, but he didn't do much of a background check.

(I just realized Leopold is Emma's grandfather. Obvious I know, but I hadn't thought about it before.)

Edited August 7, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rockybeach]

Based on their interactions in season 3, Tinkerbell tries to support Regina but the minute Regina doesn't do what she wants, Tinkerbell gets upset and walks.

What do you think Tinkerbell's reaction will be when she finds out about Marian?

Do you have any expectations of season 4? What do you want to happen with Regina's storyline?

I would hope Tinkerbell will be supportive of Regina, but her character is very up and down, so it is difficult to say.

My expectations of season 4 is that Regina is going to back slide. She made all the right choices in season 3 and yet again gets slammed by a Charming. So she will be angry, hurt and disillusioned. Eventually I want her to move on. I want her to find happiness in her life. With or without Robin. I don't think Marian is going to be an issue for too long. She will either win Robin and they both leave, or she will die. Either way I think that storyline will be resolved during the first part of the season.

[KingOfHearts]

 

My expectations of season 4 is that Regina is going to back slide.

Ditto. This may be giving A&E too much credit, and possibly too optimistic, but my theory is Regina's redemption in 3B was a misdirect. Her TLK and light magic were only temporary bursts of love, and they were not legitimate signs of a changed heart. The fact she did it without a heart has been criticized fervently, but it may actually be telling that her acts weren't true. She was only able to do them because she didn't have her heart - because her darkness wasn't inside her. Now that she has her heart back, we welcome you to 4x01's real title, The Return of Mayor Mills.

 

(I actually want Mayor Mills again. She's far more entertaining than St. Regina.)

Edited August 8, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

I have to confess I would hate a backslide. I agree that Our Lady Regina of Woobification sucks, but the show already pissed away one season on what was (I guess) supposed to be a redemption arc for Regina. I have less than no interest in another season being sacrificed on the altar of Regina. (Plus, it would be just infuriating from a storyline coherency pov. Even people who like Regina pretty much agreed after S2 that there needed to be no more flip-flopping from her.)

[KingOfHearts]

She could go either way, really. Her character is messed up for all eternity as it is. Her redemption arc itself is a major coherency problem, since she's claimed to be redeemed in the show yet she still does things to prove she's not. I would hate to have a mild flipflop backslide like in 2B, but to S1 Regina would fit her original character. I just want her to choose a side and stick with it.

 

If she goes complete hero, then the show has too many heroes. If she goes evil, then many viewers will be cheated. She's the Catch 22 of the show. The writers can't win with her, no matter what they do. I personally prefer Evil Regina because Lana does better acting as the villain, and Regina is far less annoying when she actually owns her darkness instead of denying it with tears.

 

After seeing her TLK and use light magic... I'm pretty burnt out on her "redemption". Where else does it have to go, really? The obvious thing would be her recognizing other peoples' feelings and taking responsibility, but we all know that's taboo in the writer's room.

Edited August 8, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

The backslide would have been fine if they didn't give her the ability to produce light magic and reward her with Henry already in S3.  

 

I'm sick of her targeting Snow and her family but maybe if she goes after Marion and it blows up in her face and Henry sees her for who she really is/was, and everyone condemns her, then maybe that might be worth it.  By the end of the season, Regina and Rumple in pillories on Main Street with tomatoes for all!  

Edited August 8, 2014 by Camera One

[FavFable]

I would hope Tinkerbell will be supportive of Regina, but her character is very up and down, so it is difficult to say.

My expectations of season 4 is that Regina is going to back slide. She made all the right choices in season 3 and yet again gets slammed by a Charming. So she will be angry, hurt and disillusioned. Eventually I want her to move on. I want her to find happiness in her life. With or without Robin. I don't think Marian is going to be an issue for too long. She will either win Robin and they both leave, or she will die. Either way I think that storyline will be resolved during the first part of the season.

I disagree. I don't think Regina is going to backslide. I think she is going to consider going back to her old ways, but she will decide to move forward. She has her son and she will focus on being a mother and being happy with him back in her life.

 

I do agree with you about Marian. I do not think she will be around very long. I am curious. Why do you think she will die?

She could go either way, really. Her character is messed up for all eternity as it is. Her redemption arc itself is a major coherency problem, since she's claimed to be redeemed in the show yet she still does things to prove she's not. I would hate to have a mild flipflop backslide like in 2B, but to S1 Regina would fit her original character. I just want her to choose a side and stick with it.

 

If she goes complete hero, then the show has too many heroes. If she goes evil, then many viewers will be cheated. She's the Catch 22 of the show. The writers can't win with her, no matter what they do. I personally prefer Evil Regina because Lana does better acting as the villain, and Regina is far less annoying when she actually owns her darkness instead of denying it with tears.

 

After seeing her TLK and use light magic... I'm pretty burnt out on her "redemption". Where else does it have to go, really? The obvious thing would be her recognizing other peoples' feelings and taking responsibility, but we all know that's taboo in the writer's room.

I am curious. Why have you decided she hasn't taken any responsibility or doesn't consider other people's feelings?

Edited August 9, 2014 by FavFable

[KingOfHearts]

 

I am curious. Why have you decided she hasn't taken any responsibility or doesn't consider other people's feelings?

 

I should have been more clear when I said taking responsibility, but what I meant is she hasn't taken responsibility for her own actions. She hasn't admitted in the clear that what she did in her past was wrong. I haven't seen her not blame others for the things she herself had done yet. If I see her do something meaningful like apologize to Snow, then I would see that as a big leap in the right direction.

 

(Note to everyone: I'm still spinning my wheels on what Regina might do in S4. Right now I think which way she'll choose is debatable. Please bear with me and my over-analyzing.)

Edited August 9, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FavFable]

So in episode 3.11 when she says that Pan's curse is her fault because she created Storybrooke, that isn't taking responsibility? Or when she was willing to die with the trigger because she created it.

 

Or in season 2 when she apologized to Henry for her behavior because she was wrong. Those don't apply?

[KingOfHearts]

 

 

So in episode 3.11 when she says that Pan's curse is her fault because she created Storybrooke, that isn't taking responsibility? Or when she was willing to die with the trigger because she created it.

Or in season 2 when she apologized to Henry for her behavior because she was wrong. Those don't apply?

 

It does apply, but it doesn't touch on her core issues. It's not what really digs deep into her character. The acts that are meaningful are the ones that spark a change of heart. They are turn-around points that counteract the current route she's taken. Apologizing to Henry was a major step for her, but all that was reversed in 2B when Cora came to town and Regina tried to kill the whole town with a failsafe. That brought us back to square one.

 

3A got her back on track with her helping the Charmings rescue Henry, however, most of her good deeds in S3 were self-serving in some way. The one act that stands out is in Going Home, but she immediately reverted to victimization in Witch Hunt when she tried to sleeping-curse herself. So yes she does good acts, but they don't resonate, and their effects disappear just episodes later.

 

What she needs to work on is her relationship with Snow first, then apologize to every single citizen of Storybrooke. She needs to realize she was wrong in order to move forward. Until I see that, her good deeds are fluff. It's what's in the heart that matters.

Edited August 9, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FavFable]

 

3A got her back on track with her helping the Charmings rescue Henry, however, most of her good deeds in S3 were self-serving in some way.

Really so giving Emma her happy memories of raising Henry helped Regina? How?

Stopping Zelena and saving the Charming's baby was selfish? Or when she split Snow's heart to save both Snow and Charming, how did that benefit Regina?

Regina stood between her mother and Snow to protect Snow. That was selfish? I just don't see it.

Since Rumple created the curse and manipulated Regina to cast it, do you expect him to "apologize to every citizen? Or is that just Regina's job?

Edited August 9, 2014 by FavFable

[KingOfHearts]

 

 

Really so giving Emma her happy memories of raising Henry helped Regina? How?

I'm sorry I didn't write the sentence after that very well. That particular act wasn't self-serving. But it didn't cost her anything, either.

 

 

Stopping Zelena and saving the Charming's baby was selfish?

I don't think she was there to save the baby, necessarily. She was there to stop Zelena from erasing her from history, plus keep her newly-found "hero" image intact.

 

 

Or when she split Snow's heart to save both Snow and Charming, how did that benefit Regina?

I don't know if I really consider that a "good deed". If anything, her hesitation because it would endanger Snow and her baby was the right part.

 

 

Since Rumple created the curse and manipulated Regina to cast it, do you expect him to "apologize to every citizen? Or is that just Regina's job?

You don't even need the curse for Rumple to have to do that. He caused problems with most of the citizens himself before the curse was even cast.

Edited August 9, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

I was just reading an essay on the "Severus Snape Syndrome", and Regina fits the bill perfectly: where a villain doesn’t actually have any legitimate regrets or redemption, but the circumstances around their death/almost death somehow transform them into a valued and trusted hero above all other heroes ever.

 

Regina gets more credit for things normal decent people would have done, without having caused the problem in the first place. It's nice that Regina made some amends for her past wrongs, but she should be doing that anyway. Half the time when she is saving the day, it's to keep Henry from being left alone in the Real World because of something she set up in the first place (the Dark Curse, the Trigger, etc). The other half, she's helping the Charmings defeat Zelena so she won't destroy everyone, including herself and Henry. It's really hard for me to buy into Regina being a hero, when the writers make her flip flop from one extreme to the other every half-season. Rumple being a bigger villain than Regina (though that may be debatable) doesn't have anything to do with Regina's redemptive arc. They all have to carry individual responsibility for what they have done.

[Mari]

Really so giving Emma her happy memories of raising Henry helped Regina? How?

 

 

I'm sorry I didn't write the sentence after that very well. That particular act wasn't self-serving. But it didn't cost her anything, either.

If Regina truly loves Henry, that wasn't selfless. 

 

In one way it is something for her mental health;  Emma and Henry's memories were going to change.  Henry's memories were going away completely.  Giving Emma and Henry memories of each other ensured that Henry would have stability.

 

It could be interpreted as a gift Regina was giving herself;  the peace of mind of knowing someone was taking loving care of her child.

 

It was peace of mind Charming and Snow didn't have, when they had to be separated from their child--and her reaction after they got back to the Enchanted Forest makes me think she still hasn't figured that out.

[FavFable]

 

I don't think she was there to save the baby, necessarily. She was there to stop Zelena from erasing her from history, plus keep her newly-found "hero" image intact.

So basically for people who dislike the character.  Any positive action she makes is for her image and any negative behavior is her 'true' self? Right?

Edited August 9, 2014 by FavFable

[Mari]

So basically for people who dislike the character.  Any positive action she makes is for her image and any negative behavior is her 'true' self? Right?

 

Part of the problem is that the show has reinforced repeatedly that Regina's remorse is not serious, and that she does not take seriously the pain she's caused.

 

Since she doesn't feel remorse and doesn't take others' pain seriously--or even seem to realize that, well, their pain is pain, too, and not just there for her enjoyment?

 

As a result, it's difficult to see her good actions as purely good;  if she's doing it, it's likely there's a motive in there for her satisfaction.

 

Do I think she's grown? 

Yes.  Season 1 and part of season 2 Regina was not really capable of considering even Henry's pain as real.  I can believe that things she's done for Henry recently are reasonably selfless.

 

But the rest of the world isn't Henry, and Regina's amply demonstrated that, unless it's her or Henry, she mostly doesn't care.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Mari

[KingOfHearts]

So basically for people who dislike the character.  Any positive action she makes is for her image and any negative behavior is her 'true' self? Right?

Regina has done selfless things before, don't get me wrong. She protected Snow from her mother's ghost, for one. I didn't see any evidence particularly in Kansas that said she was there to save the baby. We did, however, see how alarmed she was in Bleeding Through when she found out Zelena was going to erase her from history.

 

Like Mari said, she's grown considerably from the way she used to be. Underneath the drama, I see changes in her overall character, it's just subtle at times. I just tend to appreciate sincere words and gestures more than hero deeds.

 

I'm one of Regina's fans, by the way! :)

Edited August 9, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Regina has done some pretty horrific things in her life including child abuse, rape, mass murder, mass brainwashing, Cursing of entire realms, separating parents from children, sending children to be killed, etc.. All of this was based on a misplaced vendetta against Snow. Even if she changed in the present, and completely regretted her actions, that does not mean that everyone will be okay with her, or even forgive her. When such a person says they don't even regret their actions because it brought them what they wanted, I don't feel obligated to see the best in her as a viewer. I sympathise much more with her victims.

 

This is not to say that she never does anything good. I was all set to like her by the end of Going Home. But 3B ended up being more of the victim-blaming stuff OUAT pulls. They stacked the deck unnaturally in her favor with True Love's Kiss, and White Magic, and Robin Hood, all when she was not in possession of her heart, making her the "specialist snowflake ever", only to pull the rug from under her feet by having Marian come back, and make her the "biggest victim ever" again. People break up with their boyfriends or lovers all the time. She was dating Robin for three days. I just want to shake her say, "Grow up!" I have no time for her tears. 

Edited August 9, 2014 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

 

They stacked the deck unnaturally in her favor with True Love's Kiss, and White Magic, and Robin Hood, all when she was not in possession of her heart, making her the "specialist snowflake ever", only to pull the rug from under her feet by having Marian come back, and make her the "biggest victim ever". People break up with their boyfriends and lovers all the time. She was dating Robin for three days. I just want to shake her say, "Grow up!" I have no time for her tears.

OQ and Marian appears to be more of a storytelling issue than Regina herself to me. If Regina's redemption track in 3B was legitimate, I'd predict Marian wouldn't be that big of an issue. But I'm convinced the writers wrote that knee jerk reaction from her for the controversy and drama factor to finish the season off with. They twisted her character to keep what she'll do next ambiguous. If we were going by normal character logic, Robin would choose Marian and Regina would be over it in two episodes. Nothing about this Marian twist is going to be that natural though, because we have A&E at the helm. Nothing about Outlaw Queen is natural!

 

Regina really should be busy mending her relationships with Henry and Snow instead of blasting people over her boyfriend problems.

Edited August 9, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

But I'm convinced the writers wrote that knee jerk reaction from her for the controversy and drama factor to finish the season off with. They twisted her character to keep what she'll do next ambiguous. 

 

I completely agree. They wrote the shocking twist of Marian coming back, and then worked back to it. They did an "emotional reset" of Regina as they called it, for the sake of drama. They really do love keeping Regina flip flopping so much! :-p

[kitticup]

I agree that Regina did selfless thing when she willingly gave up Henry to Emma and gave them both happy memories.  But, for me, that is only a first step along a very long road to redemption.  Just like Rumple did when he faced down Pan.  The thing is going out in a blaze of glory when it really is your only good option is a little bit of a cheat (Regina was going to lose Henry no matter what; he would have been alone like Emma and like Bae and probably had a bad life; Rumple understood that Bae, Belle and likely himself were going to end up dead under Pan's rule so it was a no brainer to sacrifice himself since he was essentially a dead man walking). Unless you are sociopath, it's much harder to have to face everyone knowing that you have done them wrong and trying to live your life everyday trying to make for what you have done.  At the end of season 3A, both Rumple and Regina made a sacrifice that made redemption a realistic possibility for me as a viewer, but they have to earn it now by admitting they were wrong and trying to make it up to their victims.  In some cases, they will never be able to atone for example nothing Regina does now could ever atone to what she did to Owen.  She destroyed his life.  She can't make that up to him.  

 

While I don't think Regina has to be perfect or grovel for forgiveness, Regina needs to admit her quest for vengenance was completely wrong and utterly baseless.  She needs to understand that her unhappiness is complete on her fault and that she is not entitled to everyone's forgiveness.