Regina, the Evil Queen: The Only Happy Ending Will Be Hers

[Serena]

The real world equivalent (and I believe it actually happened on Veronica Mars once) would be someone putting roofies in two people's drinks, and then putting them in a room together. The people non-consensually have sex with each other, but it's not either of their faults. It's the fault of the person who roofied them and put them in the room together. Roofie=magic brainwashing.

[Rumsy4]

I completely agree, Serena. They were all roofied into having sex with people they never would have of their own free will. It's good for Snow and Charming that they got over it real fast. But what about others? I bet there would be a ton of people who weren't able to "get over" their cursed lives and cursed spouses as easily as the Charmings seem to have done. It's a shame that the Show decided not to explore those kind of issues for more than a heartbeat. 

Edited August 1, 2014 by Rumsy4

[stealinghome]

Well, and that's part of what makes the "we are both" thing such a load of phooey, right? If everyone actually is both, you have to delve into those kinds of issues. You don't just get to handwave away the parts that are inconvenient for you!

[Rumsy4]

Exactly. The writers actually had Ruby tell Whale that Regina had given them the "gift" of starting over. I do think that human beings are resilient, and people can build something good out of a horrible or tragic situation. But it makes no sense to praise the person who put them in the bad situation in the first place. I mean, Ruby still had eaten her boyfriend. And Whale still had lost his brother. It's not like the Dark Curse had erased those events. The only good thing was the improved plumbing and iPhones. ;-)

[Camera One]

The writers actually had Ruby tell Whale that Regina had given them the "gift" of starting over.

 

It shows again the writers are warped.  They weren't "starting over" with full free will in Storybrooke.  I mean, Ruby was forced to wear demeaning clothing and constantly argue with her grandmother while being trapped and never being able to live out her dream.  How is that giving someone a "gift" of starting over.  If she meant the Curse being broken, and them being able to start over from then on out, then why is Regina being given credit for that?  Plus what you said about the sources of Red and Whale's pain still being there in the past.

[Rockybeach]

It was a brutal scene, but I am surprised it is one of your favorites. Why do you like it so much?

 

That scene where Regina apologized to Henry was really good. I think it was the first time Regina stops thinking of herself and starts thinking of someone else. It was good to see.

 

I have a few favorites, but the one that stands out was in Broken. That scene at the end when Henry tells her that he doesn't want to see her anymore. Her response was so interesting to me. She reacted not as a parent, but just as a person. She was upset and confused. It was an interesting power shift between Henry and Regina.  This isn't a season 2 moment, but another thing that I love is that Regina is so cool that even people that hate her can't stop talking about her. She inspires conversation, which I find awesome. I never see a ton of conversation about Charming or Snow, because they are perfect. What is there to discuss? They are never wrong and never bad. Just....boring.

It's one of my favorite scenes because it shows Regina's strength. She could have lied to Greg told him his father left town, but she didn't. She told him the brutal truth. She took away his power. She knew that he would kill her once she told him and she still looked him straight in the eyes and told him. It is just such a potent scene.

 

A similar scene was when Regina was tied to the tree in Neverland. She was straightforward.  She had no regrets, she couldn't. Haters like to spin that scene, but it was really the most honest thing Regina could have said.

I agree with you about Charming and Snow, I would also add Emma to the list. There is no mystery or even compelling story left for them. IMO of course. They are all going to get their happy ending, they are all going to be perceived as "right' or "just" no matter what they do.  They will always win, so really, who cares?

 

You mentioned you had a few other favorite moments. Care to share??

Edited August 2, 2014 by Rockybeach

[Rumsy4]

 

A similar scene was when Regina was tied to the tree in Neverland. She was straightforward.  She had no regrets, she couldn't. Haters like to spin that scene, but it was really the most honest thing Regina could have said.

 

There is no spin about it. I have a problem with that scene precisely because Regina has no regrets, and there was no proper follow-up (typical of OUAT). And after all that Regina put Emma and the Charmings through in the beginning and middle, I dare say they deserve their Happy Endings.  

[Mari]

I agree with you about Charming and Snow, I would also add Emma to the list. There is no mystery or even compelling story left for them. IMO of course. They are all going to get their happy ending, they are all going to be perceived and "right' or "just" no matter what they do.  They will always win, so really, who cares?

Replying in the all seasons thread.

[legaleagle53]

Speaking of happy endings, Lana Parrilla got hers the other day -- she and her fiancé, Fred DiBlasio, got married in a small, private ceremony.

 

Anyone besides me wondering whether Regina might sport a baby bump at some point if Lana gets pregnant in real life?

[FurryFury]

Oh god please no. Considering the lengths she's willing to go for and her general possessiveness of Henry. can you imagine her reaction to getting a biological child?

[Camera One]

This would be the worst potential storyline ever.  Even worse, what if it's Robin Hood's child.  Yikes, a visit to Soap Opera Realm might be necessary for that one.

[kili]

if you apply that logic, Leopold raped Regina every time they had sex together (and let's not pretend it didn't happen; that marriage had to have been consummated at some point!),

 

Regina chose to marry Leopold. In his proposal to her, he makes it clear that his primary criteria for marrying is to find a mother for Snow. He's very upfront about his motivation. Regina chose to go through with that marriage even after she pushed her mother through the looking glass and left the castle. From the way Leopold treated Cora (no retribution for her planning on tricking him into thinking he is the father of her child, stealing or lying - just losing trust and not wanting to marry any more), there is no indication he would have hunted her down and forced the matter. Or forced her into having sex. If they did have sex, she likely did it to maintain her cover so she could get revenge on Snow.

 

So if anybody is kind of getting raped in this case, it's more likely it was Leopold. He was the one getting used by the person planning on killing his daughter (and eventually him). No way mushpot Leo ever pressed the issue and if you are lying all the time to him about how you feel about it (so you can kill his daughter), he cannot be faulted for it. He's clearly not a mind reader.

[legaleagle53]

Oh god please no. Considering the lengths she's willing to go for and her general possessiveness of Henry. can you imagine her reaction to getting a biological child?

 

Hell, I was just thinking of what a nightmare a hormonal Regina would be.  If you think she cries a lot now... .

[FavFable]

It's one of my favorite scenes because it shows Regina's strength. She could have lied to Greg told him his father left town, but she didn't. She told him the brutal truth. She took away his power. She knew that he would kill her once she told him and she still looked him straight in the eyes and told him. It is just such a potent scene.

 

A similar scene was when Regina was tied to the tree in Neverland. She was straightforward.  She had no regrets, she couldn't. Haters like to spin that scene, but it was really the most honest thing Regina could have said.

I agree with you about Charming and Snow, I would also add Emma to the list. There is no mystery or even compelling story left for them. IMO of course. They are all going to get their happy ending, they are all going to be perceived as "right' or "just" no matter what they do.  They will always win, so really, who cares?

 

You mentioned you had a few other favorite moments. Care to share??

Sure. When Cora returns and Regina realizes that Cora was the one that framed her. She wanted to go tell "Henry, Emma and the two idiots." Loved that line. I also loved that Regina's first instinct was to turn Cora in. She knew her mother didn't have her best interest at heart. It surprised me how much power Cora still had over Regina, even thirty years later.

 

My top moment of season two has to be in the final episode. When Regina can't stop the trigger and they all realize they are going to die. In that moment, Henry wanted to be with his family, his mother, Regina. It was so nice to see how much Henry loves her.

Edited August 2, 2014 by FavFable

[ShadowFacts]

 

My top moment of season two has to be in the final episode. When Regina can't stop the trigger and they all realize they are going to die. In that moment, Henry wanted to be with his family, his mother, Regina. It was so nice to see how much Henry loves her.

 And really kind of puzzling, and generous of him, seeing as how she was quite abusive and did not have his best interests at heart.  Kid has a much better heart than his heartless mother.

[Rockybeach]

 

My top moment of season two has to be in the final episode. When Regina can't stop the trigger and they all realize they are going to die. In that moment, Henry wanted to be with his family, his mother, Regina. It was so nice to see how much Henry loves her.

That was a powerful moment. When Henry had to choose, he picked his mom. I loved that the writers stayed true to the characters.  I am actually very impressed they carried that theme over into season 3. What did you think of season 3?

 

Outside of Regina, who is your favorite character?

[KingOfHearts]

This is just an observation, but it seems Regina is the most interesting character to dissect and discuss because of her complexity in nature and the variety of problems with her. I have this urge to "fix" her issues for some reason. Maybe it's because the solutions are so obvious.

I admit, at one point, I drank the Regina koolaid. I was mad when people weren't eating her lasagna, and I was cheering on her redemption arc. It's easy to do when you take what Adam and Eddie give you without thinking. It wasn't until I stepped back and looked at the whole picture did I begin to show a truly wary eye to Regina's redemption.

Regina isn't redeemed - I repeat, Regina isn't redeemed. She's got a vault full of hearts, a man in an asylum, grudges toward Snow and Emma, Zelena's pendant, and crazy eyes. She's still making death threats and blaming everyone for her own problems. We had all that "redemption" in S3, and she's still got skeletons in her closet.

I can't, with a sound mind, validate her redemption arc thus far. There are too many red flags to see her herohood as legitimate. As much as I root for people turning good, redeeming Regina is a breeding ground for major balancing issues. This show has enough heroes as it is.

Edited August 3, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FavFable]

That was a powerful moment. When Henry had to choose, he picked his mom. I loved that the writers stayed true to the characters.  I am actually very impressed they carried that theme over into season 3. What did you think of season 3?

 

Outside of Regina, who is your favorite character?

I found it interesting that of all the "villains" Regina is the only one that didn't kill anyone in season 3.

I didn't really care much for the Neverland Arc, I thought it was boring.

The second half of season 3 was really good. I like that the writers are taking their time with Regina's redemption arc. It has been fun to watch.

Normally "grey" characters are my favorite, but Regina is the only one of the 3 that is interesting enough to watch and root for.  Rumple isn't interested in Redemption and Hook's "redemption" will only last while he is dating / sleeping with Emma.

I thought that moment toward the end of season 3, when Regina had to decide between killing Zelena and letting her live, she gave her a second chance. Nice moment and it showed a lot of growth for Regina.

 

Favorite character outside of Regina?? Probably Charming and Robin.

[FavFable]

 

Regina isn't redeemed - I repeat, Regina isn't redeemed.

I don't know any Regina fan that thinks she is. It's a journey.

[Dani-Ellie]

I don't know any Regina fan that thinks she is. It's a journey.

 

I agree that it's a journey, but my problem with it is they keep swinging her too far one way or the other. One minute she's promising her son she's going to try to be a better person and the next minute she's trying to kill his entire family. They take pains to show us all the atrocities she's committed as the Evil Queen and then expect us to cheer for her when she says she doesn't regret any of them. The only thing that got her to recognize that life was worth living in the missing year was having someone to destroy and then she gave Henry True Love's Kiss and performed white magic all without a heart. She defeated Zelena while everyone else in that barn stood around and did nothing. How much more of a white hat could they have given her at that moment? But they wanted to end the season on a tense note so they had her blaming Emma for Marian, comparing it to her blame of Snow for Daniel, the implication being that now Regina's going to go after Emma the way she did Snow. Every time they give her even the tiniest bit of growth, they reverse it, and all that does is make it look like Regina hasn't grown at all.

[kili]

I found it interesting that of all the "villains" Regina is the only one that didn't kill anyone in season 3.

 

Not from lack of trying.

 

In flashbacks -

Attempts to Vader strangle Grumpy with intent to kill - stopped by Snow

Comes very close to killing Snow (Snow saved herself by turning herself into a bug, Ariel also saved Snow once by stabbing Regina with a dinglehopper)

Decides to kill Snow's baby (we know she is eventually saved by Charming)

Sentences Emma and Marian to death (Emma breaks them free from her prison hours before their execution)

Kills three trolls for bringing her bad news

 

In the present

Turns a mermaid to wood (never found out what happened to her)

Turned a flying monkey into a stuffed animal (and we've never figured out if the flying monkey/people she fireballed in the boathouse survived or died)

Planned on killing Zelena (failed and later changed her mind)

Bonus: ripped the heart out of a Lost Boy (never found out what happened to him)

 

Season 3 Successful Murders: 3 (trolls)

Season 3 Murder Attempts: 7 (Grumpy, 2xSnow, 2xEmma, Marian, Zelena)

Season 3 Possible Killings in Self Defense: Flying Monkeys, Mermaids

[KingOfHearts]

I don't know any Regina fan that thinks she is. It's a journey.

I say she isn't because some of the characters on the show have called her a "hero" and "changed", which I don't exactly agree with at this point.

If Regina legitimately tries to redeem herself, I'll cheer her on. I just want her to go one way or the other, and stop making 180 turns, like Dani-Elle said.

Edited August 3, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FavFable]

I disagree. True redemption is going to be a process of success and failures. I expect Regina to fall down and have set backs, any true path to change will.

 

Allowing Regina to help people doesn't suddenly make her the "hero", even the dialogue proved it. Her comment to being called a hero... "I am today." Which is accurate. She stepped up and helped people that needed it. She saved the Charming's kid. So for that day she made a difference. Doesn't change what she did before, but it is progress. I understand that people that hate the character can't really accept any positive progress, but the show was clear it was a triumph for that day.

Edited August 3, 2014 by FavFable

[Camera One]

People don't necessarily "hate" Regina.  They hate the way her storyline is being written.  I'm sure most viewers want to see Regina progressively redeem herself, but in a more gradual and believable way with occasional rewards and breakthroughs which are earned from some internal recognition of the wrong she has done, such as apologizing to Snow properly for killing her father.  The whole Regina is Mother Teresa Today, and Voldemort tomorrow and in the flashbacks is counterproductive and damaging to the character.

[Dani-Ellie]

People don't necessarily "hate" Regina.  They hate the way her storyline is being written.

 

Exactly. Despite how it sounds, I don't actually hate Regina. She's funny and there have been scenes with her where I've been all, "Aww." At this point for me, it's character weariness. I'm tired of her. I don't care about Round 74343 of Regina vs. Snow. I don't care about how she doesn't understand that killing people makes people mad at her. I don't care that she can't comprehend that killing her son's entire family is not going to make him love her. I don't care that she's gaining all these little steps and bits of happiness because I know the show's just going to take it from her to make her the Evil Queen again.

 

I'm just over it. Either redeem her or don't, but stop playing this back-and-forth game. Like Camera One said, a more gradual redemption would have been preferable to me over this constant giving and taking, is she good today or is she going to throw someone out a window for sneezing near her, nonsense. Show me that she's actually trying and that she's not going to revert back to Evil Queen mode the second she suffers a setback. Because if she's going to keep reverting, what's the point in believing in or caring about her redemption?

 

If we're going to focus this much attention on a character, especially at the expense of others, I want to feel like the attention is warranted. I've long stopped believing the attention on Regina is warranted because the writers want to have their cake and eat it, too. They want to make her happy but they want to keep her the Evil Queen, so they rip that happiness away so she has "reason" to be miserable. There's no forward momentum because they keep resetting her, which then in turn means I stop giving a shit and would rather the story attention focus on characters who might actually be allowed to grow.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[FavFable]

 

such as apologizing to Snow properly for killing her father.

I am sure she would, had she actually killed Snow's father. She didn't.

Edited August 3, 2014 by FavFable

[Mathius]

I think the entitlement all the Charming's have will continue throughout the series. It seems to be the point of OUAT. How the world owes them a 'happy ending', they are the perpetual victims.

They are owed a happy ending because they ARE the perpetual victims and yet still continue to strive to do GOOD in spite of it, instead of whining and doing evil, using their victimization as an excuse. Their happy endings aren't a case of entitlement, it's a case of them having EARNED them.

 

Yes she's had a lot of harm inflicted on her... from her own doing! It's not like she was walking along and someone threw a rock at her just to be mean.

If Kitsis had said "she's the character who has caused the most harm to others, but has also caused the most harm to herself", THAT would be agreeable. As it stands, the line makes no sense.

 

Normally "grey" characters are my favorite, but Regina is the only one of the 3 that is interesting enough to watch and root for. Rumple isn't interested in Redemption and Hook's "redemption" will only last while he is dating / sleeping with Emma.

You're right about Rumple, but Hook? "The Jolly Roger" showed that he feels remorse for bad things he's done and wants to change and make amends when Emma has nothing to do with it. And more to the point, the season 3 finale showed that he will always be willing to help Emma even if she ISN'T dating / sleeping with him. His "I'd go to the ends of the Earth for her" line happened BEFORE she decided to get into a relationship with him. If she breaks up with him, he's not going to go back to evil, he'll still love her and fight to help her no matter what.

I think it's really nonsensical that you put redemption in quotations for Hook, as if to say it's not valid, when you continue to ignore everyone's points about the fallacy of Regina's "redemption" and how, unlike Hook, we HAVEN'T gotten any evidence that she'd still do good and help out if things didn't go the way she wants them to...in fact, we have evidence to the contrary with the recent S4 sneak-peek.

 

I thought that moment toward the end of season 3, when Regina had to decide between killing Zelena and letting her live, she gave her a second chance. Nice moment and it showed a lot of growth for Regina.

And then that "growth" was undermined when she threatened to crush Zelena's heart and kill her if she dared to stray from that second chance even once, which is unfair and hypocritical given that Regina has strayed DOZENS of times, to the point that saying Regina got a "second chance" is laughable, since it's more like her seventh or eighth chance.

 

I am sure she would, had she actually killed Snow's father. She didn't.

Well by THAT logic, Snow didn't kill Cora. Regina did. Yet Snow is still blamed for the "murder" (Regina even says "you have a less damaging relationship with my mother than I did, and you killed her!") and made to apologize. So why isn't Regina held to that same standard?

She manipulated the Genie into killing Leo and gave him the murder weapon. She is just as responsible as Snow is for manipulating her into killing Cora. Really, Snow should have LESS reason to apologize since she was delivering karmic retribution to Regina for killing Leo, and unlike Leo, Cora was a dangerous murderer who needed to die.

[Mari]

I am sure she would, had she actually killed Snow's father. She didn't.

No, she didn't physically kill him.  But she did deliberately set in motion events that she expected to lead to his death.

 

However, I can see why some think she shouldn't have to apologize for that.  Regina could, however, apologize for repeatedly trying to kill Snow and Emma, for repeatedly cursing Snow, for cursing . . .

 

I don't hate Regina.  I am, however, like Dani-Ellie said, tired of her, and like CameraOne said, hate the way her story is written.

 

If the show would stop trying to make me feel like Regina is really, truly the victim in this situation, and quit whiplashing between Evil Regina and St. Regina the Underappreciated Wonder, I would actually enjoy her.

 

If the show would start taking the pain Regina has caused a fraction as seriously as the pain Regina has had, I could take her seriously.

 

If the show would actually stop trying to make a moral equivalent between people like Snow and Emma trying to help people, but not being omniscient and accidentally causing harm, and Regina, who  gleefuly, sadistically stomped all over people for her pleasure?

 

Those aren't the same thing.  The show needs to acknowledge that, if I'm going to take Regina and her pain seriously.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Mari

[KingOfHearts]

To Regina's disservice as well as us viewers, every time they build her up, they immediately knock her down. It's hard to buy progress that disappears from a simple circumstance. It makes her emotions and redemption look frail and shallow. She's happy one second, then wants to kill people the next.

How can I root for a character that's just going to revert any given moment? I know we all mess up sometimes, but you can't be both Maleficent and Aurora.

The Regina/Sidney sneak peek makes me wonder if her 3B enlightenment was all for naught.

I've been a Regina fan from the start, by the way. She's funny and I like her demeanor. It's really only her writing that bugs me. I greatly enjoy her concept, it's just the execution that doesn't do her justice.

Edited August 3, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FavFable]

Your not required to like her. I cheer on her progress and I am disappointed in her setbacks, but she is still a character I enjoy following. You root for the characters you like and enjoy watching. If you don't like Regina or her storyline, that's cool, there are plenty of other characters.

Edited August 3, 2014 by FavFable

[Rockybeach]

 

I didn't really care much for the Neverland Arc, I thought it was boring.

The second half of season 3 was really good. I like that the writers are taking their time with Regina's redemption arc. It has been fun to watch.

 

The Neverland Arc was odd. They had some great moments, Charming saving Emma, Regina taunting Snow and the truce between Regina and Emma. I knew they were going to bring back Neal and I thought that was kind of a waste, especially since they just killed him later on in the season. While Regina wasn't really the focus for Neverland, I thought she had some good moments. Her moments with Henry and her scenes with Tinkerbell were really good. When Regina pulled out her heart and offered it to Tinkerbell, I thought it continued some of the themes from season 2. Regina's willingness to die, and her complete devotion to those she loves. She was willing to do anything to save Henry.

[ShadowFacts]

 

Regina's willingness to die, and her complete devotion to those she loves. She was willing to do anything to save Henry.

 

Well, except not complete devotion to her father.  Saving Henry, baseline human parental behavior, but yeah, good thing for Henry.  How did the kid get in that position in the first place?  In part because Greg/Owen was motivated by Regina killing his father.  Another one of those pesky kinds of blowback that bite you in the ass when you murder people because you don't get what you want.  When it finally dawns on her that there is a price to pay for offing people, then I'll give her a pat on the back.  And maybe like her. 

[Shanna Marie]

I think the writers have done Regina a disservice in stacking the deck so far in her favor, and in doing so, they're doing the show a disservice. The characters I love most are the ones who have to work for it -- they may start in a bad place, but then they realize where they went wrong, have some self-awareness of their issues even if they retain a few blind spots, then have to work to show the other characters that they've changed, and sometimes that acceptance is grudgingly given over time. I'm more likely to become fiercely supportive of a character if there's a lag between the change in behavior and the reaction of others to that change.

 

But with Regina, they've made all the Mary Sue writing mistakes that come from having absolutely no objectivity about the character and wanting her to have all the things (even if those things include suffering to score martyr/victim points). So she's the underdog who wins at just about everything, the totally changed and redeemed villain who hasn't actually changed that much. As with typical Mary Sues, the other characters aren't allowed to have normal human reactions to her, and if they do, they're demonized for doing so -- it's bad of them not to trust her instantly after her decades of torment, even though she's never actually said anything about being done trying to destroy them (at least Rumple and Hook called an explicit truce. Regina has never said anything to Snow about being done with trying to destroy her, so how can Snow trust her at all?). And yet she's allowed to react (and overreact) to every tiny slight done to her, and she's allowed to play the victim about the things she herself did or tried to do -- weeping at the grave of the father she murdered, weeping over the supposed dead body of the mother she sent someone to murder, grieving insanely enough to want vengeance when someone else killed the mother she'd tried to murder, weeping because the kid whose father she captured and imprisoned didn't want to stay and be her son.

 

I would like her a lot more if she'd had to earn the hero position she currently holds -- if she'd pulled a Hook and realized that getting her vengeance didn't make everything better so she was done with that and ready to move on, if she'd apologized at all or even shown the tiniest sign that she knew she hadn't been right, if the others had been allowed to be wary or angry about the Evil Queen who'd slaughtered villages and cursed them all, if she'd lost any social status due to her actions and had to rebuild her life, if her "heroic" acts hadn't just been her stopping the evil she actually set in motion, if her "suffering" hadn't been the consequences of her own behavior, or if she'd shown even the slightest empathy about the harm she'd done to other people and wept for them rather than for herself.

[Dani-Ellie]

Towards the end of 2B, I remember thinking that Regina at that point was a lost cause. She was a sociopath at the very least. Henry had at least been able to reason with her (which, we won't even get into how terrible it is to allow an eleven-year-old to be your moral compass, but whatever), but he was quickly losing even that ability. By the end of the season, she was so into her revenge fantasy that when her son, whom she claims to love, is telling her that he'll never love her if she kills his entire family, and she deals with it not by taking his wishes into consideration but by wiping his memory. I'm sorry, but in my opinion, that's not okay.

 

The writing has thankfully backed off from that and made her a little less psycho but, like everything else on this show, it was never dealt with. Does Regina feel bad that she wiped her kid's memory? Does she feel terrible that she was going to kill his entire family even though he very clearly did not want her to? "No regrets" would suggest not, which is highly problematic in terms of redemption.

[Camera One]

By the end of the season, she was so into her revenge fantasy that when her son, whom she claims to love, is telling her that he'll never love her if she kills his entire family, and she deals with it not by taking his wishes into consideration but by wiping his memory. I'm sorry, but in my opinion, that's not okay.

 

That was pretty much unforgivable, and they've never mentioned it again.  Regina got off scot-free from that.  And now the ship has sort of sailed from bringing it up again.  There are so many little loose ends that the villains have gotten away with.  Another minor one is what happened to Gaston.  Is Belle ever going to find out about that?  

[Rumsy4]

That was pretty much unforgivable, and they've never mentioned it again.  Regina got off scot-free from that.  And now the ship has sort of sailed from bringing it up again.  There are so many little loose ends that the villains have gotten away with.  Another minor one is what happened to Gaston.  Is Belle ever going to find out about that?  

 

Replying in the Villains thread. 

[FavFable]

The Neverland Arc was odd. They had some great moments, Charming saving Emma, Regina taunting Snow and the truce between Regina and Emma. I knew they were going to bring back Neal and I thought that was kind of a waste, especially since they just killed him later on in the season. While Regina wasn't really the focus for Neverland, I thought she had some good moments. Her moments with Henry and her scenes with Tinkerbell were really good. When Regina pulled out her heart and offered it to Tinkerbell, I thought it continued some of the themes from season 2. Regina's willingness to die, and her complete devotion to those she loves. She was willing to do anything to save Henry.

Loved Charming saving Emma too, that was a great scene. I can't decide what I think of Tinkerbell. One minute she was trying to help Regina, the next she seems to hate her. Regina wasn't in a place to really start a new Romance, especially being trapped in a marriage to that disgusting old man.

Do you think Tinkerbell showed Regina, Robin to give her hope? What did you think of Regina's comment to Snow after she took the lost boy's heart?

[Rockybeach]

Yeah Snow's father was pretty vile. Hope he isn't in season 4, he becomes more repulsive every time they bring him back.

 

Yes I think TInkerbell knew Regina was in a bad place and she wanted to help her. The problem started when Regina didn't act immediately on Tinkerbell's reveal of her soul mate. To be fair, Regina couldn't just walk away from the King, he would have killed her.

 

I liked Regina's comment to Snow. It was obvious, but sometimes Snow doesn't clue into the obvious. I am glad Regina make things clear.

[Mari]

Yeah Snow's father was pretty vile. Hope he isn't in season 4, he becomes more repulsive every time they bring him back.

I'm  confused.  What made Leopold vile?  What did he do that was so wrong, or terrible?  He was not told that Regina did not want to marry him, and treated Cora more than fairly.  Not everybody is going to like him or be attracted to him--tastes differ--but what makes him vile and repulsive?

 

 

 

Yes I think TInkerbell knew Regina was in a bad place and she wanted to help her. The problem started when Regina didn't act immediately on Tinkerbell's reveal of her soul mate. To be fair, Regina couldn't just walk away from the King, he would have killed her.

 Leopold seems to have treated everyone very kindly, and there are no stories about his idea of justice being that harsh, so I had a completely different impression of Leopold. 

 

In the scenes where Regina and Tink discuss the marriage and Regina finding love elsewhere, I don't remember vengeance being one of Regina's concerns.  She wasn't enjoying her marriage, but it was pretty clear that she wasn't afraid of Leopold, and that while he might not have been doting on her, he wasn't abusive.  Plus, in the scene where Regina decides whether or not to meet Robin, Leopold isn't mentioned as a factor.

 

Regina didn't meet Robin not because of Leopold, but because she wanted to be angry more than she wanted to be happy--or at least, that's the way I remember the dialogue.

[Rumsy4]

I'm  confused.  What made Leopold vile?  What did he do that was so wrong, or terrible?  He was not told that Regina did not want to marry him, and treated Cora more than fairly.  Not everybody is going to like him or be attracted to him--tastes differ--but what makes him vile and repulsive?

 

He did lock up Regina when read her secret diary and thought she was in love with someone else. Yeah--Regina played him, but he still did imprison her. Leopold is a very poorly developed character. He seemed a good and kind King and father, but acted like an idiot in "Bleeding Through". And to actually marry the daughter of Cora! That man was nuts!

 

It looks like both he and Regina never tried when it came to their marriage--he wanted a mother for Snow, and she was too bitter and angry over Daniel. I agree that she didn't want to take the chance about Robin because she was too afraid and angry to take the chance. 

[Mari]

He did lock up Regina when read her secret diary and thought she was in love with someone else. Yeah--Regina played him, but he still did imprison her.

Thanks--I'd forgotten about that.

 

And, yeah, she played him--but he didn't have to fall for it.

[Dani-Ellie]

He did lock up Regina when read her secret diary and thought she was in love with someone else.

 

I forget ... is there any point which Leopold says he's locked Regina up? Because I remember Regina's father telling the Genie she was locked up and Regina repeating the same story, but those two can't be trusted as far as I can throw them. (Regina's father could have been just as played as the Genie, I suppose, but still, is there confirmation not from Regina's side of the story that Leopold locked her away?)

[KingOfHearts]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but in Quite a Common Fairy, isn't Regina not allowed to leave the palace? I know she left with Tinkerbell, but she may have just sneaked out.

[Rumsy4]

I forget ... is there any point which Leopold says he's locked Regina up? Because I remember Regina's father telling the Genie she was locked up and Regina repeating the same story, but those two can't be trusted as far as I can throw them. (Regina's father could have been just as played as the Genie, I suppose, but still, is there confirmation not from Regina's side of the story that Leopold locked her away?)

 

No, but they didn't show us that Regina was lying about the "locked up" part. So, I'm going to go with what they showed us. The writers are bad with showing and telling though. So who knows... Leo also read her personal diary, and told the genie that she had betrayed him. So, it doesn't look like he was a total saint. I mean, the man only married her so she would be a mother to Snow. 

Edited August 6, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but in Quite a Common Fairy, isn't Regina not allowed to leave the palace? I know she left with Tinkerbell, but she may have just sneaked out.

 

I don't think there was a rule that forbid her from leaving the palace.  Regina told Rumple, "I'm the queen, but I'm practically a prisoner with a husband whose heart is still with his dead wife, and his insipid daughter.  It's intolerable.  I have nothing to do and nowhere to go."   It seemed to me it was self-imposed seclusion and she was just whining to Rumple.  She could have gone on the tour of the kingdom along with Leopold and Snow, but she didn't want to and she hated spending time with them.  She could have developed a hobby or a new project if she didn't want to leave the castle.  So clearly, she had no interest in seeing the Kingdom and mixing with the people.  One would think that could have been a distraction, if anything.

 

She was always sneaking off to have lessons with Rumple anyway, and Leopold was never suspicious, so I think it was a hyperbole that she was a prisoner.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Camera One

[Dani-Ellie]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but in Quite a Common Fairy, isn't Regina not allowed to leave the palace? I know she left with Tinkerbell, but she may have just sneaked out.

 

She was free enough to disappear for her lessons with Rumple. He tracks her down at the castle because she didn't show up for her lessons. (The "roast swan" scene.) She goes off with Tink, and she says the king and Snow are gone a lot. No, it's not the life she wanted and yes, it was lonely, but it hardly screams of "you are trapped within these walls, never to leave" to me. It makes me wonder how much of it was Leopold and Snow and how much of it was Regina keeping herself miserable, as she is wont to do.

 

So who knows... Leo also read her personal diary, and told that genie that she had betrayed him. So, it doesn't look like he was a total saint. I mean, the man only married her so she would be a mother to Snow.

 

I agree that he's not a saint and that he was neglectful but as far as he knew, he thought Regina was okay with their arrangement. He led his proposal as the sole purpose of the marriage was to give Snow a mother. It's not like it was a bait and switch.

[Rumsy4]

 

He led his proposal as the sole purpose of the marriage was to give Snow a mother. It's not like it was a bait and switch.

 

No, but then he was also a King, and it might have been rude or even offensive to reject the Kings' offer. He also never tried to ascertain her feelings by talking to her. No matter what, it was unfair of him to marry a very young woman, and just expect her to act as surrogate mother to his child. 

[KingOfHearts]

Leopold also said himself he knew Regina was miserable and that he could never love her like he did his first wife. He didn't do squat to help Regina be happy, and it wasn't because he was naive. But when he finds out she has another lover, he gets defensive, probably just to avoid a scandal. It's not like he was trying to be protective of his wife because he loved her or anything.

Edited August 6, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

No, but then he was also a King, and it might have been rude or even offensive to reject the Kings' offer. He also never tried to ascertain her feelings by talking to her. No matter what, it was unfair of him to marry a very young woman, and just expect her to act as surrogate mother to his child. 

Possibly, but until the episode with the Genie, there is no evidence that Regina is worried about that--and given his reaction when Cora tried to con him, it is highly unlikely that he would have had a problem with Regina saying no.

 

All Regina would have had to say is "A close friend recently died, and my mother is missing.  At this time, I am too overcome with worry and grief to marry you."  He'd've probably given her some sort of parting gift and sent her on his way.

 

I side-eye the age difference, and being involved with her mother, because, well, eewww, but if there's only Regina's anecdotal evidence that he locked her up, I don't think we can trust it.

 

And if he was comfortable with Regina saying "no", how is it unfair?  He was upfront about what he expected, it's not like he tried to trick her into it.

 

 

 

Leopold also said himself he knew Regina was miserable and that he could never love her like he did his first wife. He didn't do squat to help Regina be happy, and it wasn't because he was naive. But when he finds out she has another lover, he gets defensive, probably just to avoid a scandal. It's not like he was trying to be protective of his wife because he loved her or anything.

But he did try to include Regina in his and Snow's life; Regina says so herself.  It's not Leopold's fault that she rejected it.

 

Was he a super doting, and loving husband?  No.  Absolutely not.  No husband prizes for Leopold.  But I'm not sure it's fair to condemn him for delivering to Regina the marriage he was pretty upfront about expecting.

 

In that episode, was Regina pretending she would run away with Sidney, or just have an affair?  Because leaving Leopold is one thing, but staying in the marriage, having an affair, and possibly presenting the king of a hereditary monarchy with another person's child is treason;  the child could inherit, and therefore "steal" the country.

 

Most medievalish hereditary monarchies kill you for that.

[KingOfHearts]

 

But he did try to include Regina in his and Snow's life; Regina says so herself.

 

When did she say that? Just curious.