Regina, the Evil Queen: The Only Happy Ending Will Be Hers

[Aliasscape]

Personally, I'd hope Daniel would be disgusted with the person Regina has become and ask her why she never once thought about how he would have wanted her to treat his death. How he never would have wanted to be avenged or for her to become like her mother. That it just goes to show how much she didn't truly love him. Because honoring his memory would not have been living her life the way she has.

[Rockybeach]

I agree the finale was simplistic and pointless, but I have to disagree with you about the writers. Look at the time and attention they gave Regina's redemption arc. Compare that to the lack of development for the two male villains. Hook just changed sides to sleep with Emma. Any good act he did was because he wanted something in return from Emma. And Rumple's "redemption" was really more of a joke. He lied to his "true love" to get her to marry him and he continues to makes her look like a fool. Regina's change has been slow difficult and included set backs. I think it will include a few more. But it shows how she is changing not for anyone else, but for herself. I like your idea about brining Daniel back. That is one reunion I would have loved to see.

I still don't care much for the writers, but I can see your point. Both Rumple and Hook are almost comic relief at this point.  I am glad they care enough about the character of Regina to give her a believable storyline and to show both the good and bad of her redemption. I love seeing her work toward the person she used to be before Snow entered her life. I keep thinking Daniel would have been the better choice because of his connection to Regina and the way his death completely changed her. It was even mentioned in the last episode that she blames herself for his death. Even though it was Cora and Snow that actually caused it. I think seeing Regina now and seeing how much pain she both endured and inflicted would really rock Daniel. I think it would have been much more compelling than Marian.

[Rumsy4]

Personally, I'd hope Daniel would be disgusted with the person Regina has become and ask her why she never once thought about how he would have wanted her to treat his death. How he never would have wanted to be avenged or for her to become like her mother. That it just goes to show how much she didn't truly love him. Because honoring his memory would not have been living her life the way she has.

 

Taking this to the villains thread. 

[Souris]

I agree the finale was simplistic and pointless, but I have to disagree with you about the writers. Look at the time and attention they gave Regina's redemption arc. Compare that to the lack of development for the two male villains. Hook just changed sides to sleep with Emma. Any good act he did was because he wanted something in return from Emma. 

 

Taking my reply to the Hook thread.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Souris

[Camera One]

In "A Curious Thing", when Belle broke the news that Neal had died and Rumple was back, Regina's pointedly ignored the news about Neal and her only response was "Rumple is alive!" with glee in her eyes.  If Henry was supposedly the most important part of her life now, her first response should have been how devastated Henry would be if he ever found out.  So her mindset is still pretty much all about herself.

[Serena]

Regina probably doesn't even remember who Neal is.

[legaleagle53]

Of course not.  I still remember her reaction to finding out that Neal was Henry's birth father (hence Rumpel's grandson).  She was furious that Rumpel had never bothered to tell her that little bit of information, as though it directly impacted her rather than Henry.

[Rumsy4]

He's "that person" remember? ;-) I wonder how she would react if Neal had been alive and wanted yet another parental role in Henry's life. 

[stealinghome]

That's actually something I think the show really, really missed the boat on--Regina should have gone APESHIT over Neal and his family connections, but it could have been a really interesting, character-growth-inducing apeshit. (which is probably why we didn't get it.)

[legaleagle53]

Well, he actually did want another parental role in Henry's life.  He just wasn't all that bright as a parent (Henry did nearly manage to put one over on him when Henry tried to run away, and he would have succeeded if Emma hadn't clued Neal in).

[Camera One]

That's actually something I think the show really, really missed the boat on--Regina should have gone APESHIT over Neal and his family connections, but it could have been a really interesting, character-growth-inducing apeshit.

 

In many ways, 2B could have written itself with all the implications of "Manhattan"... I almost forgot about that conversation legaleagle53 mentioned because it was never followed up on.

[Rumsy4]

Well if they had treated Neal as a character and not a plot device, they would have had him interact with Regina over parenting Henry. Regina would have had no problems asking him the hard questions regarding his entitled attitude over Henry that Emma was never able to articulate. 

Edited July 7, 2014 by Rumsy4

[FavFable]

 

I love seeing her work toward the person she used to be before Snow entered her life.

 

I think this is a interesting idea, Rocky. How different Regina's life might have been had Snow not been there.  I think she still would have had a difficult time, but without Snow, Regina and Daniel might have had a chance to run away and start a life together.

 

I still think her life would have been difficult, because Rumple would have still tried to manipulate her to cast his pathetic curse, but if she had a life she loved and someone that loved her, I think Rumple might have failed. If the writers were interested in an AU story rather than that joke of a finale they should have shown the EF without Rumple's interference... No Dark One. No Evil Queen. No Curse. No Wicked Witch. Possibly no Evil Cora. That would have been interesting. Take away the cause of everyone's destruction and life  in the EF is completely different.

Edited July 7, 2014 by FavFable

[Mari]

I think this is a interesting idea, Rocky. How different Regina's life might have been had Snow not been there.  I think she still would have had a difficult time, but without Snow, Regina and Daniel might have had a chance to run away and start a life together.

Except for Cora, Regina's manipulative, murderous mother.    She might've had something to say about that.

 

Replying to the rest in the villain's thread.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Mari

[Guest]

I think this is a interesting idea, Rocky. How different Regina's life might have been had Snow not been there.  I think she still would have had a difficult time, but without Snow, Regina and Daniel might have had a chance to run away and start a life together.

 

I truly believe that if it weren't Snow it would have been someone else.  Some other princess. Or some random peasant. The ridiculousness of Regina thinking Snow's Mother being the "bad guy" because she tripped Cora or told her fiancée that Cora was pregnant with another man's and Regina's reaction to Emma bringing Marian back is enough to convince me of that.  Regina doesn't get to claim the butterfly effect of if only Snow hadn't been there and she doesn't get to scapegoat everything on Cora being her Mother either or Rumple's influence.

[Mari]

I truly believe that if it weren't Snow it would have been someone else.  Some other princess. Or some random peasant. The ridiculousness of Regina thinking Snow's Mother being the "bad guy" because she tripped Cora or told her fiancée that Cora was pregnant with another man's and Regina's reaction to Emma bringing Marian back is enough to convince me of that.  Regina doesn't get to claim the butterfly effect of if only Snow hadn't been there and she doesn't get to scapegoat everything on Cora being her Mother either or Rumple's influence.

Yes.  Regina so far seems mostly incapable of accepting that she--or her immediate family, apparently--did something wrong.

 

How would Regina react to other real world tragedy?  Because as romantic as running away with a groom sounds, he was a groom.   It wasn't exactly a high-paying job and he'd be leaving without references. 

 

On top of that, Regina was raised to be a princess, albeit one a long way from the throne.  She wasn't exactly swimming in real-world trade skills.

 

What would happen when they could no longer afford things?  Or if one of them got sick and they couldn't afford  a place to stay or medical care?

 

Because Regina isn't going to blame herself.  She doesn't do that.

[Rockybeach]

I think this is a interesting idea, Rocky. How different Regina's life might have been had Snow not been there.  I think she still would have had a difficult time, but without Snow, Regina and Daniel might have had a chance to run away and start a life together.

 

I still think her life would have been difficult, because Rumple would have still tried to manipulate her to cast his pathetic curse, but if she had a life she loved and someone that loved her, I think Rumple might have failed. If the writers were interested in an AU story rather than that joke of a finale they should have shown the EF without Rumple's interference... No Dark One. No Evil Queen. No Curse. No Wicked Witch. Possibly no Evil Cora. That would have been interesting. Take away the cause of everyone's destruction and life  in the EF is completely different.

It would be fun to see how things would have played out. They alluded to it a bit in It's Not Easy Being Green. Regina was a second choice for Rumple. He had a willing participant in Zelena and didn't need Regina at that point. It was only when Zelena fell in love with him that she became expendable. I do have to credit the show for not trying to redeem Rumple. They keep showing what a manipulative sleaze he was. I think it will be exposed even more next season with Elsa. It's cool that they pretty much left the 2 male villains as unredeemable. I think it was a good choice.

 

What did you think of the possible development with Regina and Zelena?

[Shanna Marie]

I don't think that removing Snow from the equation would have changed much at all. Wasn't it later implied that Cora already knew or suspected about Daniel? Even if she didn't, we saw that when Regina tried to run away after Daniel's death, Cora knew and caught her before she made it very far down the road. So even if Snow had never said a word to Cora, the only thing that might have changed was that Cora would have caught them a little later and Daniel would have been killed on the road instead of in the stable. Considering that Snow wasn't all that much to blame in the first place, would her having nothing to do with the situation other than being the mechanism Cora was using to put Regina in Leopold's path really have changed Regina's response all that much? If Snow hadn't been involved at all, it would have been some other person Cora used in her scheme to make Regina a queen who got between Regina and what Regina thought was her happiness, just by existing. A lot of Regina's problem has been that she could only imagine one kind of happiness, and she refused to let anything else make her happy. Chances are, even if she had escaped, life with Daniel might not have been what she imagined it would be, so instead of adapting and dealing with what she had, she would have been horribly unhappy from comparing her situation to what she wanted it to be.

[kili]

Wasn't it later implied that Cora already knew or suspected about Daniel? Even if she didn't, we saw that when Regina tried to run away after Daniel's death, Cora knew and caught her before she made it very far down the road. So even if Snow had never said a word to Cora, the only thing that might have changed was that Cora would have caught them a little later and Daniel would have been killed on the road instead of in the stable.

 

I have always suspected that Cora tricked Snow into telling her about Daniel (who she already knew all about) because she needed Regina to HATE Snow. Cora would want Snow to ultimately be killed so that her daugher or grandchild (both of whom Cora would control) would become the ruling power in the White kingdom (no way Cora was going to let Leopold live either...woman is nothing if she isn't vindictive).  Cora didn't want Regina forming an attachment to the child that would trheaten that plan and would be the rightful heir to the throne.

 

I agree that Cora's quick action in catching Regina when she ran away meant that there was no chance that Regina/Daniel were ever going to run away to get married.

 

Regina could never blame her mother for Daniel's death (because she was too powerful and held too much sway over Regina), so she focused the blame on Snow. I think Regina also feels that she is responsible for painting a target on Danielle's back knowing her own mother, but again, she focuses that guilt on Snow.

 

Would she be happy with Danielle if a miracle had occured and they had escaped? I doubt it. I'm not entirely sure whether she loved Danielle or she loved the idea of Danielle (an escape from and rebellion from her mother).  She was badly damaged psychologically by Cora and I'm not sure that other disappointments wouldn't have caused her to suffer the same mental break as Danielle's death.  But Snow or no Snow, Rumple had decided that Regina was necessary for the curse, so he would have meddled until she was ripe to cast it.

 

Regina has made some very bad choices, but Cora and Rumple definitely contributed to the final results.

[Mari]

I don't think that removing Snow from the equation would have changed much at all. Wasn't it later implied that Cora already knew or suspected about Daniel? Even if she didn't, we saw that when Regina tried to run away after Daniel's death, Cora knew and caught her before she made it very far down the road. So even if Snow had never said a word to Cora, the only thing that might have changed was that Cora would have caught them a little later and Daniel would have been killed on the road instead of in the stable. Considering that Snow wasn't all that much to blame in the first place, would her having nothing to do with the situation other than being the mechanism Cora was using to put Regina in Leopold's path really have changed Regina's response all that much? If Snow hadn't been involved at all, it would have been some other person Cora used in her scheme to make Regina a queen who got between Regina and what Regina thought was her happiness, just by existing. A lot of Regina's problem has been that she could only imagine one kind of happiness, and she refused to let anything else make her happy. Chances are, even if she had escaped, life with Daniel might not have been what she imagined it would be, so instead of adapting and dealing with what she had, she would have been horribly unhappy from comparing her situation to what she wanted it to be.

I think  you're right, and Snow is mostly irrelevant.  Cora was mostly onto Regina, and creepily tuned into what she was up to;  Regina was the focus of her become royal plans.  Even if Regina and Daniel had gotten away, she was going to track them down.

 

Regina truly loved Daniel, but that doesn't mean that life with that person would make you happy--take a look at Rumple and Belle.  Regina's mother was horrible, but she grew up with servants attending her, and few practical job skills.  Even if she and Daniel had gotten away, was Regina emotionally prepared for what life would be like away from her castle and manor?  Because you're right--Regina was stuck on  one specific vision of happiness, and life throws too many surprises at you for it to go the way you expected it to for long.

[Camera One]

I have always suspected that Cora tricked Snow into telling her about Daniel (who she already knew all about) because she needed Regina to HATE Snow. Cora would want Snow to ultimately be killed so that her daugher or grandchild (both of whom Cora would control) would become the ruling power in the White kingdom

 

Now that we know Cora's entire backstory, this is very likely to be true.  Cora chose Snow for a reason... she wanted to corrupt her.  She failed once already and I wouldn't doubt that she would have tried again.  The Daniel complication worked into Cora's plan perfectly... she would have killed him anyway, but this was a great way to turn Regina into the type of person Cora wanted her to be.  If Regina didn't hate Snow, then Cora would have found another way.  And if worse came to worse, Cora would have killed Snow and Leopold herself.  Cora wanted Regina on the throne, and she always planned to be around to "guide" Regina to that path.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Camera One

[FavFable]

 

Regina could never blame her mother for Daniel's death (because she was too powerful and held too much sway over Regina), so she focused the blame on Snow. I think Regina also feels that she is responsible for painting a target on Danielle's back knowing her own mother, but again, she focuses that guilt on Snow.

I hadn't really thought about it, but you are right. Regina never did blame Cora. Snow told Cora, so I understand Regina being disappointed with Snow, but it was Cora that killed Daniel. It was interesting that even in the finale, when Regina was telling Robin about Daniel she blamed herself. "He died because he loved me." And not her mother. I think it shows just how much power and influence Cora had with Regina. 

It would be fun to see how things would have played out. They alluded to it a bit in It's Not Easy Being Green. Regina was a second choice for Rumple. He had a willing participant in Zelena and didn't need Regina at that point. It was only when Zelena fell in love with him that she became expendable. I do have to credit the show for not trying to redeem Rumple. They keep showing what a manipulative sleaze he was. I think it will be exposed even more next season with Elsa. It's cool that they pretty much left the 2 male villains as unredeemable. I think it was a good choice.

 

What did you think of the possible development with Regina and Zelena?

Zelena was always a mystery to me. I didn't understand her hatred of Regina without even one conversation. It just seemed way too forced. I understand that the writers wanted to show that each would have been happier with the others life. Regina wanted a family and Zelena wanted power, but the hatred Zelena had just seemed over the top. She was an interesting character but I think they should have focused less on her hatred of Regina and more on her goal of going back and giving herself a better life. I think it would have been interesting if she had approached Regina as a sister and offered her a second chance, with her mother and her sister. It would have been interesting to see how Regina reacted.

Edited July 8, 2014 by FavFable

[Rockybeach]

 

I think it would have been interesting if she had approached Regina as a sister and offered her a second chance, with her mother and her sister. It would have been interesting to see how Regina reacted.

A new start with her mother and sister, but she has to give up the person she loves the most... Henry. That would have been really compelling. I don't think Regina would have done it. I think she would have stayed because no one is as important to her as Henry. But the question would have caused conflicting feelings for Regina. I think the second half of the season would have been better if they had picked a couple of main storylines and not tried to shove so much into the 11 episodes they had. I wish they had included more of the cast into the story as well. Belle, Tinkerbell and Grumpy are some characters I would like to see more of. Hook and Emma, I would have liked with less screen time. I am interested in seeing who they focus on in season 4.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Rockybeach

[FavFable]

Wondering if Henry is going to be involved with the Marian and Robin storyline. I think he might be the only one that Regina will still trust. I am interested to see how Regina handles this latest setback. I am hoping that both Henry and Snow will support her.

[Camera One]

As long as she doesn't blame people who shouldn't be blamed, then I wouldn't mind Henry trying to comfort her. But no Snow please. They need to increase Snow's scenes with Emma, not Regina, until Regina finally progresses to the point where she can make a proper apology to Snow for killing her father, for trying to kill her and separating Snow from her family via the Curse.

[Rumsy4]

I intensely disliked the "wiser than an adult" advise Henry was giving Emma about Walsh. I hope he will keep from interfering with the Regina/Robin/Marian love triangle. 

Edited July 18, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Rockybeach]

Wondering if Henry is going to be involved with the Marian and Robin storyline. I think he might be the only one that Regina will still trust. I am interested to see how Regina handles this latest setback. I am hoping that both Henry and Snow will support her.

I think Henry will be there to support Regina. He knows she and Robin were dating and that they were happy. I am curious about his reaction to Emma changing the timeline. I don't think he will be too happy about it. His mom was using light magic, defeated Zelena without killing her, saved Snow, her son and the town, and now Emma interference has damaged Robin and Regina's relationship.

[Camera One]

I'm not sure they will even go there with Henry. That would mean Emma would need to tell him that Regina planned to have Marion executed. I don't think the show is willing to spend time on Henry coming to terms with who Regina was as "The Evil Queen". They hardly even had Emma react to seeing Regina murder her mother, and she got over it in record time to tell Marion "Don't worry, Regina is changed now!". If Emma does explain to Henry that Marion would have been executed and she brought her to Storybrooke to save her life, what could Henry really say? Mr. "Heart of the Truest Believer" would have saved Marion himself in a heartbeat.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

I intensely disliked the "wiser than an adult" advise Henry was giving Emma about Walsh. I hope he will keep from interfering with the Regina/Robin/Marian love triangle.

 

Henry has had the "wiser than an adult" thing going since S1, and to me, it's even more annoying than Woegina. He smart-mouthed, disobeyed his parents, did idiotic things like give his heart to Pan, and he's still treated as the golden child. He's just always come off as a brat to me.

 

Although with the Love Triangle, I do hope he can help keep Regina off of it. Henry is one of the few people Regina actually listens to, plus she'll keep her good behavior in front of him. He's in no way responsible for Regina's happiness, but he'll want to spend time with her since they've been apart for a year. Emma will be busy anyway with Elsa and her pirate. Since Henry's older now, he can be a little more consenting about what he does.

Edited July 18, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

Although with the Love Triangle, I do hope he can help keep Regina off of it. Henry is one of the few people Regina actually listens to, plus she'll keep her good behavior in front of him. He's in no way responsible for Regina's happiness, but he'll want to spend time with her since they've been apart for a year.

At the same time, though, how much "support" is reasonable to expect a twelve-year-old to give?

 

Him noticing she's sad, and trying to do things to make her less sad, and acknowledging that she broke up with her boyfriend of four whole days, I'm in favor of. 

 

Him being her support and confidant?  Nope.  He's twelve. 

 

 

 

I am curious about his reaction to Emma changing the timeline. I don't think he will be too happy about it. His mom was using light magic, defeated Zelena without killing her, saved Snow, her son and the town, and now Emma interference has damaged Robin and Regina's relationship.

His mom was also the reason her new boyfriend was a widower, and his son was motherless.  Henry should probably not be happy about that, either. If he's going to e mad at Emma for altering the time line, it's only fair that he be angry at Regina for trying to murder Robin's wife.

 

 

 

As long as she doesn't blame people who shouldn't be blamed, then I wouldn't mind Henry trying to comfort her. But no Snow please. They need to increase Snow's scenes with Emma, not Regina, until Regina finally progresses to the point where she can make a proper apology to Snow for killing her father, for trying to kill her and separating Snow from her family via the Curse.

Yes.  I find the show's determination to make Snow be Regina's bestest friend ever, no matter how Regina treats Snow and her family--or what Regina blames them for--repulsive.

 

Regina shouldn't be kicked while she's down, but Snow should not have to listen to Regina's woes, while Regina is still blaming Snow (and Snow's daughter) for unhappiness mostly caused by Cora and Regina herself.f

[KingOfHearts]

 

Him being her support and confidant?  Nope.  He's twelve.

 

As long as Regina doesn't force it on him, I think he'll be alright. He knows Regina really well. He's seen the good parts and the bad parts, and he has set boundaries with her in the past, so I doubt he'll go full cheerleader like Snow. Maybe I'm just being an optimist.

 

If Regina goes codependent on him and tries to keep him for herself, that's a whole other ballpark. Emma would confidently step in before that would happen, though.

[Camera One]

so I doubt he'll go full cheerleader like Snow.

Unfortunately, he has already gone full cheerleader, multiple times. I hate how they ruined his character, mid-Season 2. For example, when the writers had him equate Snow/Charming/Emma after Cora died, with Regina. The "You used to be heroes!" speech. Arrrgh.

See, they never had Henry even find out about Cora tossing Johanna off the clock tower (and that's why I am doubtful he will be told or be affected by Marion's original fate). If they did have Henry find out about Johanna, we would actually have seen the true repercussions, and it would have been so much better than Regina's character development as well. It was Cora who did it, but Henry would have (rightly) been angry at Regina for her involvement, and Regina should have done a lot of reflecting after finding out Cora killed Snow's mother, giving her some conflicted and confused feelings.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

Unfortunately, he has already gone full cheerleader, multiple times. I hate how they ruined his character, mid-Season 2.

 

Kansas... I see what you mean. His character flip flops so much, that it may be possible he could go cheerleader or straight-talker, depending on what A&E want to do with him. He's just a plot device mainly, so consistency sadly doesn't come into play here. I guess if he does get his pom-poms, he could encourage her to keep being a good person even when things don't work out. That kind of encouragement is okay - encouraging without acknowledging wrongdoing is not.

 

Hook encourages Emma, but he also calls her out when she does something wrong. That is the kind of help Regina needs, but isn't getting, even from Robin. Robin and Snow just spewing out compliments without conviction does more harm than good.

 

Again it's not Henry's responsibility to supervise Regina. It's his choice whether to help her or not.

Edited July 18, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Guest]

I just re-watched Regina murder Graham and everything that led up to that.  So someone explain to me again like I'm a child how it is that Emma, Snow, and Charming have made Regina into a member of their extended family.  They can't prove it, but they know, right?  Henry said it out loud.

 

I'm feeling kind of brainwashed at the moment.  I thought I was wise to A&E's ways.  I wasn't buying this redemption crap.  But somehow I got turned around from Regina is pure Evil.  I'm squarely back to Regina is pure Evil now.

 

It points out to me that Emma returning from the past, after witnessing Regina try to burn Snow at the stake, and being concerned for Regina's feelings because her would be victim {Marian} doesn't know how Regina has changed is insane.  I feel like this show has robbed me of several IQ points because why am I just now realizing this?

 

Seriously, there is no coming back from what Regina did from Graham.

 

Plus the show was so much more interesting when Regina was Evil.

Edited July 18, 2014 by ParadoxLost

[Mari]

Kansas... I see what you mean. His character flip flops so much, that it may be possible he could go cheerleader or straight-talker, depending on what A&E want to do with him. He's just a plot device mainly, so consistency sadly doesn't come into play here. I guess if he does get his pom-poms, he could encourage her to keep being a good person even when things don't work out. That kind of encouragement is okay - encouraging without acknowledging wrongdoing is not.

 

Hook encourages Emma, but he also calls her out when she does something wrong. That is the kind of help Regina needs, but isn't getting, even from Robin. Robin and Snow just spewing out compliments without conviction does more harm than good.

 

Again it's not Henry's responsibility to supervise Regina. It's his choice whether to help her or not.

Yes.  One of the things that infuriates me about Regina--and by extension, the show--is that no one but Regina's feelings seem to matter. 

 

Regina just lost her boyfriend of four whole days.  She's not good at starting over (because her heart is not resilient.  It is anti-resilient.), so that has to hurt.

 

But at the same time, she also tried to kill Snow, Marian, and Emma.  Why is the show--and Regina--concerned only about Regina being upset because her boyfriend might go back to the wife that Regina was trying to kill?  Why are  we expecting everyone to be surrounding Regina with love and support, and be angry at Emma, and that's considered appropriate and acceptable, when Emma watched Regina burn Emma's mother--and Henry's grandmother--at the stake and that's not acknowledged?  At all?

 

I can understand the character of Regina being that self-centered.  But why does the show think that's acceptable?  Why do no one's feelings but Regina's matter?  Why do none of the other characters point out that's crazy?

 

(As for the Robin/Regina relationship?  They lost me when Robin acted like Regina mass murdering people was sexy.  That was just gross.)

Edited July 18, 2014 by Mari

[Camera One]

I'm feeling kind of brainwashed at the moment. I thought I was wise to A&E's ways. I wasn't buying this redemption crap. But somehow I got turned around from Regina is pure Evil.

I know... they are very good at the brainwashing, and I must admit while watching the show, I suddenly realize I am suddenly feeling sorry for Regina.

 

Why is the show--and Regina--concerned only about Regina being upset because her boyfriend might go back to the wife that Regina was trying to kill? Why are we expecting everyone to be surrounding Regina with love and support, and be angry at Emma, and that's considered appropriate and acceptable, when Emma watched Regina burn Emma's mother--and Henry's grandmother--at the stake and that's not acknowledged? At all?

Well said. It is very warped. I actually thought before this episode that maybe Regina was always unable to kill Snow because deep down, she couldn't even do it. But then they wrote her throwing a fireball right at Snow and then grinning like a bobcat. There is no way Emma wouldn't have been mentally scarred for half a day at the very least after witnessing that, but by nightfall, she was completely well-adjusted and looking like it was the happiest day of her life.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Camera One

[FavFable]

I think Henry will be there to support Regina. He knows she and Robin were dating and that they were happy. I am curious about his reaction to Emma changing the timeline. I don't think he will be too happy about it. His mom was using light magic, defeated Zelena without killing her, saved Snow, her son and the town, and now Emma interference has damaged Robin and Regina's relationship.

I agree with you that Henry will be the only one that Regina will trust, but I am not sure how involved he will be in the storyline. I think it is more likely that Regina shuts down and either tries to separate herself from everyone or she might consider a new curse. Either a sleeping curse or one that allows her to forget. Similar to the one she used when Henry was a baby, so she could be a better mother for him.

Snow is a mystery to me. I would like to think she would be supportive of Regina, similar to their relationship in Bleeding Through, but Snow would just be a constant reminder of the destruction Snow's family has had on Regina's family. I did like that they showed that neither of Snow's parents were blameless. Leo was a disgusting jerk and Eva was selfish.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I'm feeling kind of brainwashed at the moment.  I thought I was wise to A&E's ways.  I wasn't buying this redemption crap.  But somehow I got turned around from Regina is pure Evil.

Yep. Retcons will do that to you!

 

 

(As for the Robin/Regina relationship?  They lost me when Robin acted like Regina mass murdering people was sexy.  That was just gross.)

Robin seems like a weirdo to me. He knew full well how Regina was the Evil Queen. Heck, if he was on the Wanted posters next to Snow's, she was probably trying to kill him. If he's attracted to dictators, I wonder how many skeletons are in Marian's closet that would attract him...

 

When you think about it, Regina fell into the pit she dug for herself. She was too afraid to meet Dragon Tattoo guy, so he probably married Marian afterwards. She killed Marian, which let her fall in love with Robin while he thought she was dead, thus her heart got broken after she came back. It's really Regina's own fault. Could someone, anyone, call her on that? Anyone will do!

 

 

Well said. It is very warped. I actually thought before this episode that maybe Regina was always unable to kill Snow because deep down, she couldn't even do it.

 

It couldn't have been that difficult to kill Snow. Just get a locator spell, and bam you've got her. The fact she had to send assassins to do it for her showed she didn't want to do it herself. In my headcanon, Snow and Regina had a sisterly relationship before she went nuts. But then you have burning at the stake... what the heck? Is there really no limit to her evilness in EF? Do the writers just think because she's changed now, they can do whatever they want with her back in EF?

 

We had those awesome character-building moments in The Evil Queen when Regina was talking to Snow, then the writers killed it with village massacring. It's like they totally intend to keep Regina in character development hell.

Edited July 18, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Isn't it so strange? This makes me think that they don't see the village massacre as a writing mistake either. Because they are STILL shooting themselves in the foot in terms of how they handle Regina, in the most recent episode too.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

Eva was selfish.

Yeah, how dare Eva tell Leopold that Cora didn't love him (truth), was only marrying him to avoid shame and disgrace (truth), and that she was going to try to tell Leopold that her baby was his when it wasn't (also a truth). The next time I see one of my friends being tricked into marriage and being told a baby is theirs when it isn't, I'm totally going to stand by and let my friend be duped into a marriage under false pretenses and lied to about having fathered a child. Because that's the right thing to do, clearly.

 

(Those last two sentences were sarcasm, for the record.)

 

The fact she had to send assassins to do it for her showed she didn't want to do it herself. In my headcanon, Snow and Regina had a sisterly relationship before she went nuts. But then you have burning at the stake... what the heck? Is there really no limit to her evilness in EF? Do the writers just think because she's changed now, they can do whatever they want with her back in EF?

Yes. That is exactly, precisely what they think. I mean, they've given the game away now several times. Apparently Regina actually has multiple personalities, and Regina can't be held accountable for what The Evil Queen did. Apparently they are actually two different people.

 

Barf.

 

What frustrates me about Regina burning Snow at the stake is that it totally undoes a lot of the work that Lana and Ginny have done. One (maybe both?) of them gave an interview where she basically said "we sat down, talked about it a lot, and decided that because these women have had so many opportunities to kill each other and haven't, that means that deep down, under all the other crap, they must love each other." Only Regina frying Snow with a fireball totally undoes all the work that Ginny and Lana have done, both as individuals and with the Snow/Regina relationship, because it proves that Regina could, in fact, off Snow without a second thought. Just...talk about fucking frustrating. The writers are even undercutting their own actors at this point. I have to imagine that Ginny and Lana were not pleased when they saw that in the script.

[Rockybeach]

I agree with you that Henry will be the only one that Regina will trust, but I am not sure how involved he will be in the storyline. I think it is more likely that Regina shuts down and either tries to separate herself from everyone or she might consider a new curse. Either a sleeping curse or one that allows her to forget. Similar to the one she used when Henry was a baby, so she could be a better mother for him.

Snow is a mystery to me. I would like to think she would be supportive of Regina, similar to their relationship in Bleeding Through, but Snow would just be a constant reminder of the destruction Snow's family has had on Regina's family. I did like that they showed that neither of Snow's parents were blameless. Leo was a disgusting jerk and Eva was selfish.

Hey Fable, I agree  :) 

 

They have shown Regina to be suicidal in the past so I expect that she will turn her pain inward. I hope that she can stay on her path to redemption, but this will be a big test.

I also agree with you about Leopold. Given everything they have shown through 3 seasons, I'm not really mad at the Genie for killing him in season 1. He was really a horrible character.

It's interesting that most of the male characters, outside of Charming, are portrayed as selfish losers that love to use others.

[Mari]

They have shown Regina to be suicidal in the past so I expect that she will turn her pain inward.

Not arguing here--honestly do not remember.  When was Regina suicidal?

 

 

 

I also agree with you about Leopold. Given everything they have shown through 3 seasons, I'm not really mad at the Genie for killing him in season 1. He was really a horrible character.

It's interesting that most of the male characters, outside of Charming, are portrayed as selfish losers that love to use others.

Why was he a really horrible character?  I guess I'm missing something--he wasn't perfect, but I don't understand what he did that was horrible and selfish?

[KingOfHearts]

 

Not arguing here--honestly do not remember.  When was Regina suicidal?

The only time I've seen Regina remotely suicidal was when she tried to inflict the sleeping curse on herself. Other than that, her pain has always been pointed to others.

 

 

"we sat down, talked about it a lot, and decided that because these women have had so many opportunities to kill each other and haven't, that means that deep down, under all the other crap, they must love each other."

 

This saddens me considerably. I would absolutely love for Regina and Snow to have that kind of relationship, yet the writers just don't get it. Bleeding Through and The Evil Queen came so close to giving us that... but the writers couldn't pull the trigger. It makes me madder than it should.

 

If they wanted the "two sides to every story" kind of deal, they should have shown Regina and Snow both doing crappy things to each other - not Regina just getting mad at Snow for telling a secret. A true rivalry from both sides would have been perfect. In a show about twisting the original fairy tales, this area seems pretty cliche and not unlike a typical hero vs villain tale. It's sad, really.

[Camera One]

When was Regina suicidal?

Maybe this is referencing Regina wanting to put herself under a sleeping spell in "Witch Hunt" because she was in such pain over losing Henry Jr.

 

I also agree with you about Leopold. Given everything they have shown through 3 seasons, I'm not really mad at the Genie for killing him in season 1. He was really a horrible character.

I don't like how he is written, since he seems mainly there to be a scapegoat for the villains. But Leopold was kind to Cora, who was being discriminated against as a peasant. He was kind to the Genie, even giving up his wishes and wishing the Genie to be freed. He spent a lot of time touring the Kingdom and the citizens loved him. He refused to marry anyone who couldn't be kind to Snow, basically making her the priority. While he was totally clueless and a tad dense, he did not deserve to be bitten by poisonous snakes to death.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Camera One

[FavFable]

Hey Fable, I agree  :) 

 

They have shown Regina to be suicidal in the past so I expect that she will turn her pain inward. I hope that she can stay on her path to redemption, but this will be a big test.

I also agree with you about Leopold. Given everything they have shown through 3 seasons, I'm not really mad at the Genie for killing him in season 1. He was really a horrible character.

It's interesting that most of the male characters, outside of Charming, are portrayed as selfish losers that love to use others.

I had forgotten about that. They have shown her to be very self destructive and suicidal. It has been a theme for a while so I think you might be right about how Regina handles this latest loss. I would actually like that storyline. If Regina did take some type of potion to forget. It would be fun to see how her interactions with Henry and Robin change. Yeah, they have shown most of the parents on Once to be horrible. (Cora for Regina, Pan for Rumple, Leo for Snow, George for James) I think the only good parent was Charming's mother. I thought her death was pointless, but it was typical of the message Once likes to portray.

 

I think one person that might step up to help would be Archie. He has helped in the past.

[Rockybeach]

Archie would be a good choice. He was helping her in season 2, so it makes sense that he might reach out to her again.

 

Every main character seems to have had at least one evil parent, except Emma. Guess it is another theme. Especially since these parents had such an influence on their children. The one I would add to your list is Neal, since he was stuck with Rumple.I hated that Neal never even acknowledged Henry's mother, but given his history it wasn't too shocking. I wonder if Henry will find out that Emma kept Neal from seeing him one last time before he died?

Have to agree with you about Leopold. I actually hope they show him in season 4. Every time they bring him back he becomes more pathetic and disgusting. I think the more flashbacks they do, the worse he looks, especially his flashbacks with Cora.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Rockybeach

[myril]

Have to agree with you about Leopold. I actually hope they show him in season 4. Every time they bring him back he becomes more pathetic and disgusting. I think the more flashbacks they do, the worse he looks, especially his flashbacks with Cora.

 

Funny, to me Leo became more sympathetic over time and particular in Bleeding Through, even though the writers probably tried to make Cora look like some poor peasant betrayed by her fiance and some jealous princess. Still think that if Cora hadn't lied, were open about everything earlier, Leo might have reacted differently. I found Leo when we first meet him more of an oldfashioned though generous patriarch, benevolent as ruler but too ready to comply to tradition. With Cora he was a lot more open to break with tradition - maybe the experience with her though made him stick more to the rules.

 

Was Leo saying that he was looking for a new love in his life? No, he was looking for someone to be a mother for Snow. IMO he was a forgiving guy, seeing Regina's good qualities and not letting his negative experience with her mother get in the way. Right, he could have tried to get more background information about Regina before proposing, get a better idea of her own dreams and wishes, and later he could have been more sensitive, recognize Regina was unhappy from the beginning, and addressed it. Leo was disappointed and rightful angry to find out, that Regina seemed to love someone else (which was a setup by her!), but think his anger had more to do with her being dishonest with him and less with her not loving him - after all doubt he ever expected her to love him, just to respect him. From what they showed Leo cared to make Regina happy as his new queen, considering the marriage was for him not about true love but giving her all means to be a good influence in his daughters life (that was what he was hoping for, how wrong he was). I highly doubt that Regina was honest to him with her feelings. Why did Regina had to murder him anyway? Think she could have had a lot power just charming him. The only "reason" I see was to take revenge on Snow. I think even, if Leo would have been truly terrible to Regina, she would have not the least bit hesitated to rub it in.

 

Sorry, but I very much disagree with your views on Regina and even more so on Leo, @Rockybeach and @FavFable.

Edited July 18, 2014 by katusch

[Mari]

Funny, to me Leo became more sympathetic over time and particular in Bleeding Through, even though the writers probably tried to make Cora look like some poor peasant betrayed by her fiance and some jealous princess. Still think that if Cora hadn't lied, were open about everything earlier, Leo might have reacted differently. I found Leo when we first meet him more of an oldfashioned though generous patriarch, benevolent as ruler but too ready to comply to tradition. With Cora he was a lot more open to break with tradition - maybe the experience with her though made him stick more to the rules.

 

Was Leo saying that he was looking for a new love in his life? No, he was looking for someone to be a mother for Snow. IMO he was a forgiving guy, seeing Regina's good qualities and not letting his negative experience with her mother get in the way. Right, he could have tried to get more background information about Regina before proposing, get a better idea of her own dreams and wishes, and later he could have been more sensitive, recognize Regina was unhappy from the beginning, and addressed it. Leo was disappointed and rightful angry to find out, that Regina seemed to love someone else (which was a setup by her!), but think his anger had more to do with her being dishonest with him and less with her not loving him - after all doubt he ever expected her to love him, just to respect him. From what they showed Leo cared to make Regina happy as his new queen, considering the marriage was for him not about true love but giving her all means to be a good influence in his daughters life (that was what he was hoping for, how wrong he was). I highly doubt that Regina was honest to him with her feelings. Why did Regina had to murder him anyway? Think she could have had a lot power just charming him. The only "reason" I see was to take revenge on Snow. I think even, if Leo would have been truly terrible to Regina, she would have not the least bit hesitated to rub it in.

Responding in the relationships thread--my reply is not focused at all on Regina.

[FavFable]

Archie would be a good choice. He was helping her in season 2, so it makes sense that he might reach out to her again.

 

Every main character seems to have had at least one evil parent, except Emma. Guess it is another theme. Especially since these parents had such an influence on their children. The one I would add to your list is Neal, since he was stuck with Rumple.I hated that Neal never even acknowledged Henry's mother, but given his history it wasn't too shocking. I wonder if Henry will find out that Emma kept Neal from seeing him one last time before he died?

Have to agree with you about Leopold. I actually hope they show him in season 4. Every time they bring him back he becomes more pathetic and disgusting. I think the more flashbacks they do, the worse he looks, especially his flashbacks with Cora.

Hey Rocky I have to agree with you. I think they really showed how sad and useless Leo was, he probably will be back in Season 4. Do you think once the Marian issue is resolved the timeline change will be resolved as well? I hope it will. I think Regina will have some serious challenges at the beginning of season 4, but I hope she comes out of the drama stronger at the end.

[Rockybeach]

It was interesting that Snow even realized how gross her parents were. Bleeding Through had some disturbing moments and some really good character development. It was one of the better episodes from last year.

 

Do you think once the Marian issue is resolved the timeline change will be resolved as well? I hope it will. I think Regina will have some serious challenges at the beginning of season 4, but I hope she comes out of the drama stronger at the end.

 

I think the original timeline is probably lost, but I am curious about the development about Marian and how she really died. At the beginning of season 3 (second half) it was clear that Regina was not responsible for Marian's death, and then after Emma changed the timeline, Regina became her killer. The writer's comments over the summer lead me to believe there will be more development to that story.

 

Do you think they will ever clue Regina in that Rumple killed her sister? I am torn about whether or not I want her to get even with him. I would love to see Rumple actually be accountable for something, but not at the expense of Regina's redemption.