Regina, the Evil Queen: The Only Happy Ending Will Be Hers

[kitticup]

I actually think she did a good job first season.  There was lot of subtlety in her acting.  But I think that she sees Regina/EQ the same way A&E.  she's drunk the coolaid and it affects her acting choices.  She is giving A&E exactly what they want. 

[Camera One]

Despite my quibbles with the character, I do think Lana is a good actress.  She brings a great gravitas to The Evil Queen role, she delivers the zingers well, and she also does a good job with sadface.  To me, it's the constant see-saw in the characterization which has made the character a walking contradiction.   I agree she has drunk A&E's koolaid with regards to Regina's redemption but when the insensitive (uh, I mean sassy) comments to her victims are right in the script, there's not much she can do.  Yes, she adds crazy-eyes when she probably shouldn't, but I also think that's what A&E wants whenever they do an Evil Queen flashback.  It is up to the director and Writers to indicate clearly when that's not appropriate.  I don't buy any of the Regina/Snow or Regina/Emma scenes (nor the Regina/Henry scenes), not because I don't feel the acting is not genuine.  To me, it's that the plot has given me nothing to believe that Snow or Emma would see Regina as a friend.  An ally who is trying hard to be a better person, yes.  But a friend, no.  Writing for episodes like "Mother", "Breaking Glass" or "Bleeding Through" feel completely manipulative, so they don't ring true.  The Writers don't see this, but by fully destroying Snow & Henry (and by damaging Emma, though to a much lesser extent, since they tend to show her weakness in SQ episodes vs. Snow and Henry, who are character-assassinated pretty much all the time), they actually destroy the complexity in their favorite character Regina.  Regina is basically interacting with collapsible paper dolls whenever she has conversations with Snow, Henry or Emma, and that's just not interesting.

Edited December 4, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Lana has had a few good moments here and there since S1. I thought her scene apologizing to Henry Sr. in the Underworld was very well acted, and her initial reactions to Robin's death were poignant. I was worried she lost the EQ spark after the lackluster Shattered Sight performance. But, to be honest, she's been killing it in S6. It's not the same villain from S1, but it's still a worthy incarnation imo.

[Katherine]

I always cringe in scenes when Regina is being "good" (i.e.,when she's bonding with Snow or Emma or Henry), but I can't tell how much of that is the acting vs. the writing. I think my own dislike for the character probably colors my view quite a bit. I also suspect a big part of the problem is that Regina's "redemption" always felt rushed and unnatural to me, so now any scene featuring "redeemed" Regina feels forced and unnatural. I'm not sure if Lana could do much to change that. In general, I tend to think she's a pretty good actress, but sometimes she goes a little too far over the top. Based on interviews I've heard, she seems to view Regina in a very different light than I do. Since I don't agree with her interpretation of the character, it's entirely possible that this also influences how I view her portrayal. 

In the last couple of seasons, I've felt like there's been a drop in the quality of acting for many of the characters, but that may be due to the writing. Or perhaps I'm just more critical than ever since I really don't care for the direction the show has taken. Then again, maybe some of the actors are feeling the same way...

[kitticup]

1 hour ago, Katherine said:

In the last couple of seasons, I've felt like there's been a drop in the quality of acting for many of the characters, but that may be due to the writing. Or perhaps I'm just more critical than ever since I really don't care for the direction the show has taken. Then again, maybe some of the actors are feeling the same way...

I think it is primarily the writing.  Look at Emilie, I generally consider her a weak actresss but she's finally getting material that let's her show range and she's good.  However, I think that sometimes the actors phone it in when the plot and their character makes no sense.

[Rumsy4]

The so-called good Regina has proven to be the same as her normal self--unforgiving, holding grudges, hypocritical, murderous, with a hero complex. Her heart is still black. So, literally what is the point of this arc? To prove that this is what Regina is at her core? Then why waste seasons on Regina's redemption, only to show it was all superficial?

Or are we supposed to think she is still a hero because she doesn't want to murder her friends or her "fake" son? It's hard for me to even come to that conclusion because I can't be sure if she actually likes Emma and Snow, or if this is part of her hero-complex. 

Add to that, her "evil" half wants to torture and kill all of Regina's friends, and have sex slaves. Are these impulses Regina removed from herself, and can they grow back? 

This whole season is about Regina, and I'm not clear what the message is supposed to be. I'm afraid it will be resolved with a 2 sentences at the end of the season, and we'll all be left scratching our heads. 

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

The so-called good Regina has proven to be the same as her normal self--unforgiving, holding grudges, hypocritical, murderous, with a hero complex. Her heart is still black. So, literally what is the point of this arc? To prove that this is what Regina is at her core? Then why waste seasons on Regina's redemption, only to show it was all superficial?

Holy smokes! You mean Regina was... Regina this whole time?! Talk about a plot twist!

Quote

Or are we supposed to think she is still a hero because she doesn't want to murder her friends or her "fake" son? It's hard for me to even come to that conclusion because I can't be sure if she actually likes Emma and Snow, or if this is part of her hero-complex. 

To me, it doesn't make any difference whether or not she's actually murdering people in broad daylight. Her heart is still dark and she does not possess love for others. (Unless it's superficial emotional love.) Her self-righteousness is just another form of the same piousness that made her a villain in the first place. She thinks she deserves everything. Her demons will always be right at the front door because her attitude has not changed.

She doesn't want to murder, but that's because it would ruin her reputation. She has created this self-image of a "hero", and like Belle, if she gives into her impulses, that will put a crack in the mirror. 

Quote

Add to that, her "evil" half wants to torture and kill all of Regina's friends, and have sex slaves. Are these impulses Regina removed from herself, and can they grow back? 

Everyone has dark impulses, but to different extremes. Most people are not tempted to murder their family and friends out of boredom. I can totally believe Regina has strong sexual desires, but bloodlust? That's not something a hero who doesn't kill would have dancing in their head.

Quote

This whole season is about Regina, and I'm not clear what the message is supposed to be. I'm afraid it will be resolved with a 2 sentences at the end of the season, and we'll all be left scratching our heads. 

Wasn't S4 supposed to deal with all this crap? Why do we need another 22 episodes to come to the same exact conclusion again?

Edited December 7, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

On 1/12/2015 at 2:50 PM, FabulousTater said:

Though Regina isn't popular around these boards, I think this is unpopular: I want Regina to die. I want her killed dead dead, muerta, morte, morta, tot, <insert your language of choice here>. I hate her character so much it has completely, totally, and irrevocably ruined the show for me. I. Hate. Her.

 

I want her whacked, axed, executed, exterminated, and scrubbed from the face of fictional existence. She's crossed the moral event horizon so many times with no remorse, no regrets, no concept of contrition, nor any feelings of remorse, nor an measly iota of guilt, that I want to UPS her ass to the fiery other side -- to her rightful place in Beelzebub's domain. I want her gone.

 

I want her eradicated like the CDC wants Ebola gone. She opens her mouth and it's like the harrowing screams of a banshee coming to assail it's victims (because that's what happens when Regina speaks -- another character loses it's life). I want to order an aerial drone strike to Storybooke to take Regina out and then keep on bombing for another 2 days just in case she comes back as some sort of ectoplasmic parasite, and then send a squad of ninja assassins to go down there and make sure the only thing left of her are microscopic bone chips, which the ninjas can collect and seal in a canister of the holiest holy water that has ever been (to contain the blackhole of self-entitled, character assassinating, narcissistic plague, mouldering BS which infects and kills every character that comes near her) and launch that jar of festering pestilence of Regina's remains into space in a direct course towards the most powerful nuclear reactor in our solar system -- The Sun. If it were possible to also eliminate the resultant atomic particles remaining I would do that too, but that could start a whole destruction of the universal space time and Regina has done enough damage as it is.

 

Basically, Show, I want Regina dead. I need Regina dead. And I'm. Not. Sorry. 

 

On 1/12/2015 at 3:22 PM, FabulousTater said:

Heh!

I mean, right, it's so hard to be clear. Maybe I should write up a manifesto. I feel it's only appropriate that if you're going to have a fictional cult whose mission is the eradication of a fictional character then you should at least have a virtual manifesto. If I have time and can work my loathing into a more manageable simmering contempt, just long enough to clear the fog of war from my eyes and put together a cogent document, I may create one. And oh, I could get a mascot. I think Alien Vampire Bunnies may be the mascot. Yes, I like this. Then we could end each meeting with a yell of "Release THE HOUNDS ALIEN VAMPIRE BUNNIES!

(Though hounds are good. There's nothing wrong with a classic war cry of "Release THE HOUNDS".)

 

ETA:

 

I think that's what the worst part is for me. In season 1 I loved to hate Regina. I thought she was a great villain. But now after all the BS of season 3B and 4A? Do. NOT. Want. Die, Regina, die. The character is a murdering, soul-sucking parasite and a pestilence upon the fictional landscape of this show.

These are old posts by @FabulousTater, but I figured they were worth bringing forward and to the Regina thread, considering some of the venom directed at Regina recently.

There've been some spectacular rants dedicated to Regina, but these were some of the most vehement and memorable.

[KingOfHearts]

I remember disagreeing with a lot of those rants, once upon a time. Nowadays, while I don't list all the ways for Regina to die, I still would dance on her grave. The Evil Queen can stay, though.

[KingOfHearts]

There's this notion out there that Regina didn't need to apologize verbally because she did so with her actions. While I do believe sometimes actions speak louder than words, I don't think she even did that much. Her heroic deeds have never been framed as atonement until long after she did them. Wanting to be a hero figure and wanting to find redemption from her former victims are two different things. If you take the times she saved the day at face value, then she seems changed. But, if you dig a little deeper, you'll see it's out of glory, not redress. (Ulterior motives for good deeds are a trend on this show.)

I won't say there's never moments where I think there may be a sliver of remorse. But for every one of those, there's another that contradicts it entirely. For example, Regina tearfully reconciled with her dad, but later disowned her sister for something she didn't even do. That's not grayness, that's inorganic storytelling. She's had 4.5 seasons to redeem herself, and she has gotten nowhere. Zelena is further along and she's only had half a season to change.

Edited January 5, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

It's different if they had Regina struggling to put a lid on her feelings of blaming Zelena, or express that she understands it's illogical but she still feels them, but she doesn't.  She just flat out blamed Zelena, which seems to show complete lack of self-awareness.

As the audience, we seem pretty awed every time she seems to be apologetic, because it was so rare for much of the series.  So when she has in the 5B finale to Emma and in 6A, expressed how she has ruined lives, it seems like a big step.  But then the Writers have Snow mention her parents and then have Regina go as far as admitting she was a horrible stepmother.  If you murdered someone's father, admitting you were a bad stepmother doesn't even scrape the surface!

[Shanna Marie]

20 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

There's this notion out there that Regina didn't need to apologize verbally because she did so with her actions. While I do believe sometimes actions speak louder than words, I don't think she even did that much. Her heroic deeds have never been framed as atonement until long after she did them. Wanting to be a hero figure and wanting to find redemption from her former victims are two different things. If you take the times she saved the day at face value, then she seems changed. But, if you dig a little deeper, you'll see it's out of glory, not redress. (Ulterior motives for good deeds are a trend on this show.)

What's annoying is that they take her to the brink of going beyond selfish motivations, only to pull back. I'm not sure why the writers are allergic to her showing true remorse. It wouldn't change anything about the show, just make the relationships make a lot more sense. What they've done so far:

• She realizes that she's treating Henry the way Cora treated her, and she tries to change, but it seems like she just wants to change so Henry will like her. She doesn't go so far as to see that treating Henry the way Cora treated her is wrong, that Cora was the one who really wronged her and therefore her whole vengeance scheme against Snow was wrong. And it's funny how she went through that whole "I won't use magic" phase only to ditch that as soon as Cora came back, and it's been completely forgotten since then. It was a real dilemma whether she should use magic to save Henry from Zombie Daniel, since she promised Henry, and now she uses magic left and right.
• She wants the townspeople and the Charmings to like her and accept her, but she's making them be the one to do the heavy lifting. She just brings lasagna. No apologies at all, but she resents when they don't immediately accept her.
• She learns that Cora not only killed Daniel to force her to marry Leopold, but set up the whole thing from the start, murdering Snow's mother so Leopold would need a new wife and making Snow's horse bolt to set up Regina coming to the rescue. Then she watches Cora kill Johanna. This doesn't change Regina's views on Snow or her actions to Snow. She still feels justified in killing everyone.
• She saves the town from the failsafe not because she has a change of heart and realizes that killing everyone and destroying the town is wrong, but because she got caught in her own trap, and if the failsafe works, Henry will be orphaned and stuck alone in the world. When she learns that the bad guys have taken the failsafe, she's still justifying having it because "you were all going to leave me." She never actually admits to any wrongdoing in a plan to kill everyone.
• She undid the curse to save everyone, but that included herself. Giving Emma pleasant memories was a nice gesture, but does it make up for trying to murder her multiple times (the poison apple tart and the failsafe)? Not to mention, Pan was able to get his hands on the curse, setting up the need for the curse reverse, because Regina refused to listen to Emma in her concerns about Henry and insisted that Emma was just jealous over Henry wanting to stay with her. If she hadn't been so selfish about Henry, maybe the curse reverse wouldn't have been necessary.

I guess the thing that really blows my mind is that all these people she spent so much time trying to murder are okay hanging out with them when she's never actually said she's no longer trying to murder them. She's only told Emma that she doesn't want to kill her. She's never told Snow that she's done trying to get revenge on her or that she was wrong to try to get revenge on her, and it doesn't seem like she does think she was wrong, since the evil part of her that was just split apart still wants revenge. I would think that if she really had changed her mind, even the dark part of her would have moved on to other things to be dark about. She might blame Hook and Emma for the trip to the Underworld that allowed Hades to come out and kill Robin. She might blame Rumple for being Rumple. She might blame Zelena for Robin's death. But if she had truly changed and no longer held any grudge against Snow, even her dark self wouldn't be so focused on that.

Before I'm ready to accept that Regina has changed and shows any remorse, I need her to outright say that her quest for revenge against Snow was misguided, that she regrets those actions, and she's sorry.

[MsWausau]

I think Lana is fabulous. It's been her and Robert that have made the show what it is today. I'm just thankful that they're finding ways to make her evil again. This nice-nice crap makes me want to vomit. There has to be villains in life or it's just as dull as dishwater.

Lana is smooth, seductive and wonderful to watch. I think if they turn her completely to the good the show will die. Even Lana, in interviews, wishes the Evil Queen could revert to evil full time. I agree with her.

 

So far in this season when she and Rumple kiss, oo la la, I loved it. This 'winter break' nonsense, I hope when they come back in March they've devised a way in which to make her full on evil again.

And... I'm hoping for a future plot line they make Henry turn evil. Now that would be fantastic!

Edited January 10, 2017 by MsWausau

[Mathius]

On 1/10/2017 at 2:35 PM, MsWausau said:

And... I'm hoping for a future plot line they make Henry turn evil. Now that would be fantastic!

Jared Gilmore playing Pan in Henry's body was one of his better performances, so an evil Henry might be cool.

[Hecate7]

On 12/2/2016 at 1:04 PM, TheGreenKnight said:

But that wasn't what I was arguing at all. My point is that many--like myself--do not agree with the judgment that the above scenes make her abusive. She was a mother who was overly cold and who could've done better with Henry, but at the same time I would not designate her an abusive mother by any means. There are many parents who are distant, harsh or selfish and could've done much more than they did for their children--that doesn't make them abusive.

Well, except for the parts where Rose didn't physically restrain her daughter and kill her fiancé to keep her from leaving the life that Rose was forcing on her.

Gaslighting is the worst kind of mental and emotional abuse. Killing a pet is abuse, so I'm pretty sure killing your child's favorite teacher qualifies too. Killing the whole town, or even just threatening to, is in a class by itself.

[KAOS Agent]

I was thinking about the Regina focus in 6A and was trying to decide what exactly it accomplished with her character. When they have an arc that focuses on a character, it usually results in something changing for them. 3B gave Regina a new love interest where she "opened her heart", True Love's Kiss with Henry and defeated Zelena. She had her big hero moment. 4B had her pursuing her happy ending via author only to realize that she didn't need the author because she had what she wanted. 5B had her making peace with both parents, saying goodbye to Daniel (again), bonding with her sister and losing Robin. All of this resulted in something happening for Regina. She changed and learned and grew as a person. I know the show likes to reset the characters constantly, but at least the arcs meant something for the character when you examine the arc on its own. 6A didn't do that. What did Regina learn? How did Regina change? If anything, 6A showed she hadn't changed or learned a damn thing due to her horrific monologue to Zelena about how she's a special snowflake and Zelena isn't and doesn't deserve forgiveness. What was the purpose of the Regina focus if there is absolutely zero change in the character? 

[Camera One]

Because it's a full season structure, this means she won't learn anything until the Season 6 finale.  Her lesson learned is that she needs to embrace both the dark and the light in her, and accept herself the way she is, since she is perfectly perfect in every way.  This will be reinforced by Alt Robin Hood, by The Evil Queen before she's finally reabsorbed, by her BFFs and her son, and by her sister after a tearful reconciliation.  If she dies, then it can re-start the cycle in Season 7.  Fun!

Edited March 8, 2017 by Camera One

[TheGreenKnight]

On ‎2‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 4:46 PM, Hecate7 said:

Gaslighting is the worst kind of mental and emotional abuse.

Yeah, sorry, I still don't see Regina's treatment of Henry in S1 as abuse.

[InsertWordHere]

10 minutes ago, orza said:

Graham was a plot device minor character who died in episode 1-7. The other characters got a plausible explanation of his death that they accepted and he stopped being relevant in the following episode. His dramatic purpose was to raise the stakes and show viewers it would not be all fluffy romance. There's no need to revisit Graham's death. That chapter was closed 5 years ago. Emma knew Graham for, what, all of two weeks. He wasn't her boyfriend or any kind of romantic partner. He just gave her a job.

While I actually agree that Graham as a character wasn't very important. It was still murder. Still relevant. 

For 25 years, Charming had a plausible explanation of his father's death by cart. It still seemed relevant when he discovered his father was actually murdered. Funnily enough it was brought to his attention by Graham's murderer who still seemed to think Robert's death was relevant. If Regina herself seems to think an unsolved murder is important, who am I to argue against her? 

[Shanna Marie]

51 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

While I actually agree that Graham as a character wasn't very important. It was still murder. Still relevant. 

And regardless of how far along whatever relationship he had with Emma was, it did have a big impact on her. She cited his death as one of the reasons she was afraid to get into a new relationship. Also, Regina killed him because of Emma. She was trying to keep him from getting together with Emma, in part because she didn't want to lose control of him, in part to keep him away from Emma and hurt Emma, and in part to keep Emma from learning anything more about the curse through him, since he was getting his memories back.

But the thing that's really important is that Regina has behaved as though she's friends with Emma, has accepted Emma's apologies and attempts at friendship knowing what she did and without coming clean at all. Emma devoted an entire story arc to helping Regina as her way of making up for ruining Regina's relationship with Robin, with Regina blaming Emma for this, all while Regina knew she'd murdered Graham to keep him away from Emma, and she said not a word, didn't come clean.

Now it looks like we're going to get an arc in which it's going to be considered a big deal that about 60 years ago (David's lifetime, plus the curse), Hook killed a random person that he's just now learned was David's father, which makes it weird that Regina's murder just a couple of years ago during the present-day part of the story, targeting Emma that affected Emma, that Regina has known about all along, has been dropped entirely and doesn't seem to matter. That's why we say there's a Regina Exception Clause.

[Camera One]

I was thinking of spinoffs back in the era of Season 3, and in addition to a Hook spinoff, a Regina spinoff would have been good to get her off the parent show.  Maybe Regina, Cruella, Maleficent and Ursula (or maybe Zelena instead of Ursula) could have been stranded in the World Without Magic as their punishment and it would be a Sex In The City like vibe.  They could gain redemption for finding their former victims and giving them a happy ending.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

A spinoff with Regina is really the only way they could have truly explored that "the world where the evil queen gets her happy ending" concept, given the way they've set up that universe and her character. Send her to the world without magic, where she either ends up in New York in corporate America or DC in politics, and there she finds out that she really isn't the worst evil out there. She can be as evil as she wants to be and still be the lesser of all the other evils, so she looks like a hero. She finally gets everything she wants -- she's adored by all, in power, living in luxury, and not having to hold back her impulses. Her snark makes her a popular guest on political talk shows. It could have been a dark satire. She could occasionally pop back to Storybrooke to find some magical item in her vault (since magical items seem to retain their magic in the world without magic), and she could run into others who've been banished, like Cruella and Ursula. She'd be kind of an anti-hero, in that we know she's the villain, but she's our villain, helping us against even worse villains. Regina is never going to look like a hero compared to other heroes, especially while she's basically unrepentant, but she would look like a hero in a different setting.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Send her to the world without magic, where she either ends up in New York in corporate America or DC in politics

House of Apples?

[Camera One]

If she becomes a lawyer: The Good Apple

[Curio]

Wouldn't "The Bad Apple" be more appropriate, though?

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, Curio said:

Wouldn't "The Bad Apple" be more appropriate, though?

If she moves to New York, "The Big Apple"?

[Curio]

The Big Bad Apple?

[Rumsy4]

The Dark/Bad/Rotten Apple

Edited March 16, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

This is perfect so they can re-use the same poster again.

[Curio]

2 minutes ago, Camera One said:

This is perfect so they can re-use the same poster again.

You mean re-reuse. This year's poster is an exact replica of the poster from Season 2.

[Camera One]

I actually meant re-re-re-re-re-re-reuse.  Apparently, all you need to do is to make the apple a different color and then put whatever character in the background.  Wouldn't this poster look great with an apple in it?  I'm not positive but they might be wearing the apple.  Instead of "Get Nasty", Regina's tagline would be "Get Evil".

[KingOfHearts]

51 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I actually meant re-re-re-re-re-re-reuse.  Apparently, all you need to do is to make the apple a different color and then put whatever character in the background.  Wouldn't this poster look great with an apple in it?  I'm not positive but they might be wearing the apple.  Instead of "Get Nasty", Regina's tagline would be "Get Evil".

Zelena joins the cast as a main character in S2, and the tagline is "Get Wicked... City"

Quote

A spinoff with Regina is really the only way they could have truly explored that "the world where the evil queen gets her happy ending" concept, given the way they've set up that universe and her character. Send her to the world without magic, where she either ends up in New York in corporate America or DC in politics, and there she finds out that she really isn't the worst evil out there. She can be as evil as she wants to be and still be the lesser of all the other evils, so she looks like a hero. She finally gets everything she wants -- she's adored by all, in power, living in luxury, and not having to hold back her impulses. Her snark makes her a popular guest on political talk shows. It could have been a dark satire. She could occasionally pop back to Storybrooke to find some magical item in her vault (since magical items seem to retain their magic in the world without magic), and she could run into others who've been banished, like Cruella and Ursula. She'd be kind of an anti-hero, in that we know she's the villain, but she's our villain, helping us against even worse villains. Regina is never going to look like a hero compared to other heroes, especially while she's basically unrepentant, but she would look like a hero in a different setting.

I would be lying if I said I wouldn't watch this. As much as I hate Regina right now, this setup would suit her character much better. The black and white morality has destroyed her entertainment value, but in a land with shades of gray, she could flourish. Mayor Mills was more dynamic in S1 because she was playing against the law to some degree. It wasn't just some wonky "heroes don't kill" standard the writers made up. 

Edited March 17, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I'm tired of The Evil Queen outfit.  

If we must see her, I want her to wear something more similar to what The Evil Queen wore in the Snow White animated movie complete with the wimple.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

32 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

The overall Regina screentime gap from 6A is still growing in 6B and it's set to expand massively in the next episode. Regina has the Evil Queen/Outlaw Queen story all on her own. 

The Show has truly become Once Upon a Regina. Ooh, I just thought of the perfect parallel for this, and am going to post it in the writing thread. :-p

[KingOfHearts]

The writers have forgotten that Regina was miserable from her own revenge for 28 years. She won for nearly three decades, realized how miserable it made her, and in the present it's like it never happened. She was still framing Mary Margaret for murder to avenge Daniel. In 3x09, we saw that she put Henry before the Curse by removing her memories of knowing Emma was the Savior. Why did that never stick? The show did explore Regina's thinking, like with the "rotten apple" dream and her *retconned* love for Henry, but that only ever mattered when the writers needed us to feel bad for her. Whenever they needed her to be the villain, it was all about how Snow White took her boyfriend away and she needs to kill everyone to be happy. Which is it?

Regina could be a very interesting individual if the Curse years changed her. But, like with the fake personalities, there were no lasting consequences. Mayor Mills and the Evil Queen are the same wolf, just wearing different sheep's clothing. If this show is supposed to be exploring how the Evil Queen could get a happy ending in the real world, there needs to be an actual reason for leaving EF. Whether in Storybrooke or back her land, her destiny is the same.

Edited April 15, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Definitely.  Since she was the same person, there's no reason why she wouldn't have murdered Snow and Charming in Storybrooke, or treated them worse.  As we've suggested before, I think it would have worked better if she did have a Cursed personality and didn't remember she was The Evil Queen for 28 years.  When Emma comes to town, she would remember, but realized she couldn't get herself to be as ruthless as she was back in the Enchanted Forest.  Also, cut the village massacre crap from Season 2.  Burning down the villages, or sending everyone to work camps would have been bad enough.  They wanted to create a complex and nuanced character, but their own writing made that impossible to buy, and they kept adding atrocities which made Regina less and less sympathetic and redeemable. Finally, make Regina work hard for the redemption and cut the ridiculous BFF relationships.  

Having said that, I'm sure A&E are actually proudest of the BFF relationships/Henry loves two moms equally, and the big bad Evil Queen moments, so they still don't see where it all went wrong.  Which means this show would always have played out like this.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Why was Regina a total idiot as a ruler? Wouldn't she have gotten some sort of training from Cora? Even dictators have to be cunning. They can't just go around murdering people for no reason and expect adoration. Even Rumple pointed that out to her. Speaking of him, he was really the only reason she was able to stay in power. He was protecting her interests the whole way, as well as cleaning up her messes.

I'm surprised all the villagers protected Snow at the expense of their families. It's not like she was doing anything to save them. She was just a nice bandit. It wasn't until after she married Charming that she started any sort of rebellion. 

Edited April 27, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

The villagers protected Snow because of loyalty.  Her father was constantly touring the kingdom and was clearly loved.  Not everyone protected Snow, though (the man in "Heartless" was willing to turn her in for money), and clearly there wasn't enough people for an organized rebellion to overthrow the tyranny of the queen (since she seemed to be the only person able to do magic).

What's idiotic is how Regina (and Zelena) kept bemoaning how they don't have "the love of the people" when it was obvious why.  How stupid can they be?  If they really wanted the love of the people, they could do it with the flick of their hand, bestowing them with gifts and fortune, along with not randomly terrorizing them.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

You know, it's funny. I never thought Regina got the short-end of the stick until the last episode of S6. Up to that point, she was the unfortunate soul without a happy ending. Blah blah blah. But now she has what was intended to be a happy ending and... it's lackluster, even for someone who hates her character. I get it. She wanted to be loved by those around her. But how was getting QUEEN on the door any different from where she's been the past couple of seasons? She's even worse off now than she was because Robin is dead. 

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

You know, it's funny. I never thought Regina got the short-end of the stick until the last episode of S6. Up to that point, she was the unfortunate soul without a happy ending. Blah blah blah. But now she has what was intended to be a happy ending and... it's lackluster, even for someone who hates her character.

When you think about it, she's worse off at the end of season six than she was during season one. The only real improvement in her life is Henry not hating her. Otherwise, she's having to be nice to the person she devoted her life to destroying -- in season one during the curse, Mary Margaret had to be nice to her, but she didn't have to be nice in return. She's living in the same place and has the same job, but she's no longer in total control. People can do what they want to do, even if she doesn't like it. She had a boyfriend and lost him. She's learned that her mother had a daughter before her, and that daughter was Rumple's favorite, most powerful pupil. She was miserable enough with being good that she split her bad side off, but then she reabsorbed parts of it, so is she still somewhat miserable?

Not that she's in a bad place, but you could make a case for her life now being worse than it was at the beginning of the series. So I guess maybe she suffered at least a teensy bit for being a horrible villain?

[KAOS Agent]

She seems to be on good terms with her sister.  At least until she decides to be mad at her again for whatever reason. And she has a niece who happens to be the child of her dead lover, so that's a plus. 

Personally, I don't think Regina can ever be happy. She's always looking for something more. It's one of her main character traits. She wins in the Pilot and gets everything she ever wanted, but is quickly bored and starts looking towards Owen to entertain her. This goes on throughout the series. She gains something good and what she said would make her happy, but it's not enough or it's not perfect and so she's not completely happy. It's why she's always so frustrated with Snow because Snow's life sucks and yet she somehow manages to be happy despite the bad things. It's that stupid "hope" thing at work. While Snow is unbelievably good at ignoring the bad, Regina is equally bad at focusing on the positives.

[Shanna Marie]

11 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Personally, I don't think Regina can ever be happy. She's always looking for something more. It's one of her main character traits.

The show would have had a lot more depth if they'd actually used that instead of making it out as though she really was an underdog who always got the short end of the stick, so that the other characters were rushing around trying to help her find happiness. Her big season 4 epiphany that she was her own worst enemy lasted about five seconds and she was back to feeling sorry for herself. I don't think they ever really delved into the fact that she was always looking for something more, or else so busy looking back on what she lost that she couldn't see what she current had and didn't do anything to gain anything else in the future. That's the big difference between her and Snow. Snow suffered losses and moved on, focusing on other people, and as a result, she got new people in her life. Regina couldn't think about anything other than what she lost, first with Daniel, then with Robin. Most people whose married boyfriend went back to his wife would have moved on and looked for someone more available to date (Nottingham! Which would have been a nice rebound from Robin). Regina decided that she was being supernaturally prevented from having a happy ending and wanted to change the rules of the universe.

[Camera One]

That lesson would have been a lot more palatable than the lesson she was given in Season 6 - to love all of herself, even the dark parts.  This woman had relished her evilness for years... being ashamed of that side of herself was growth... it wasn't a problem to overcome.  The idiocy that The Evil Queen split apart also had good in her was contradicted by that "solution" she gave Regina to end the Sleeping Curse which didn't work!  Yet it wasn't mentioned again and The Evil Queen got to be a martyr for all in the finale.  The Writers have serious blinders on.

[KingOfHearts]

Regina is the textbook example of a narcissist. Yeah, on the surface she seems charming with her quips, political power, and extravagant wardrobe, but underneath, she's just a bitch. There's this notion that narcissists are secretly insecure and just use the bravado to hide their true feelings. 6x14's whole message about Regina learning to love herself really pushed that. But that's not really true. Regina has always been confident about herself. She has never doubted herself, rather she has always played victim to those around her. She sees herself being crucified on an apple tree because everyone else is so terrible. I don't buy that she ever hated herself. The only reason she rejected the Evil Queen image was in order to appeal to the people who had what she wanted. 

Another notable trait is her ability to manipulate others into doing what she wants, then dropping them the minute she no longer needs them. We saw this over and over again in S1 with Sidney, Graham, Hansel/Gretel, Jefferson, etc. Later, it continues with her family members. She'll only "support" Emma until she gets in the way of a goal. Emma spends too much time with Henry? Better get rid of her. Emma saves her boyfriend's wife's life? Time to ostracize and bully. Narcissists take advantage of others' compassion and empathy. That's exactly what she did in Breaking Glass with Emma groveling. All her other cheerleaders like Henry and Snow only feed into her self-centeredness. 

The greatest sign of all is her gaslighting Henry. Narcissists want everyone to believe they're normal, and everything else is abnormal. They are their own standard. She made her son doubt himself so she could not only preserve the curse, but maintain control. If he ever doubted her, she could use his "delusions" as an excuse.

As someone who has dealt with Regina-types in my own life, I find her behavior particularly revolting. Yet, it's also consistent and fits perfectly in line with the malignant narcissistic lifestyle.

Edited July 22, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I think Regina's other major narcissistic trait is a complete lack of empathy. She's physically incapable of seeing any perspective other than her own or recognizing that other people have feelings. Her feelings are the only ones that matter, and that makes her able to justify anything she does -- if it makes her feel better, then it's okay, regardless of how it harms others. That's pretty much all of season one -- she doesn't seem to care about how Henry feels, as long as she wins against Emma. She'd rather murder Graham than risk losing him to Emma. She wants Hansel and Gretel to stay with her and doesn't seem to grasp that they might have their own preferences and would prefer to be with their father. She's so intent on keeping David and Mary Margaret apart that she's willing to hurt Kathryn by dragging her into the whole mess, and later willing to murder her when she's willing to let David and Mary Margaret be together. She can only think about what she'd do with the magic beans, and so she destroys them all rather than let anyone else have a say in where they want to be. When the curse is reversed, all she can think of is her own grief at being separated from Henry. It doesn't seem to occur to her that David and Snow are also missing Henry and Emma or that her curse separated them from their daughter. She heard Robin talk about what pain he went through when he lost Marian, but all she can think about when Marian is saved is how her life is ruined. She doesn't seem to give a single thought to what it means for him, doesn't feel a moment of grief about the fact that she caused him this pain. She never connects the dots between her affair with Robin and what happened with David and Snow while she was forcing them apart. She doesn't feel bad in retrospect about having led the slut shaming of Snow, doesn't have any empathy with the situation she put Snow into. Her only reaction to Hook being brought back to life is to throw one of her "I hate being good/villains don't get happy endings" fits. She doesn't feel happy for her supposed friend's happiness.

And yeah, I've worked for a few "Reginas" in my time. That's why it's hard to watch the treatment she's given. I would have been okay with a redemption if it had been a real redemption, if we'd seen her recognizing where she went wrong, really repenting, and truly changing -- not just not doing evil, but having empathy and compassion, recognizing that when she did evil, she hurt people.

[KingOfHearts]

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And yeah, I've worked for a few "Reginas" in my time. That's why it's hard to watch the treatment she's given. I would have been okay with a redemption if it had been a real redemption, if we'd seen her recognizing where she went wrong, really repenting, and truly changing -- not just not doing evil, but having empathy and compassion, recognizing that when she did evil, she hurt people.

Unfortunately, people like Regina rarely change. To fix a problem, they have to see there's a problem in the first place.

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I think Regina's other major narcissistic trait is a complete lack of empathy.

This is my biggest turnoff. She's meant to be a hero, yet she lacks the drive to help others. When she does do something seemingly heroic, it's always for her benefit. She doesn't love her close ones as real people. Rather, she sees them as possessions or pawns. That's been fairly obvious as far as Henry or her boyfriends have been concerned. 

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She's physically incapable of seeing any perspective other than her own or recognizing that other people have feelings. 

This all comes to a head in 6x09. Regina was completely oblivious to the fact Zelena lost her boyfriend as well. And not only did he die, but he also betrayed her. She was forced to kill him. He didn't die a valiant hero like Robin. Wouldn't Zelena be equally traumatized? Why does Regina get 9 episodes of mourning, while in the premiere Zelena is happily stacking boxes?

Edited July 22, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Further evidence of the narcissism: Most of Regina's "everything happens to me" complaining is actually about bad things that happen to other people. Regina hasn't had a lot of bad things happen directly to her, and just about any bad thing that has happened to her has been a direct consequence of something evil she did -- Rumple sent the wraith after her because she imprisoned Belle and lied about it (and even there, it was Snow and Emma who suffered), Greg and Tamara kidnapped and tortured her because she murdered his father. Otherwise, her "I can't get a happy ending, my life is ruined" complaining centers around bad stuff happening to other people -- Daniel was murdered, but all she ever talked about was how her life was ruined, not about getting justice for Daniel. It's about the life she didn't get to have, not the life Daniel didn't get to have. Robin's wife was murdered and he was raped by her murderer, who's pregnant with his baby, and it's Regina who's the real victim. Robin is killed, leaving his child an orphan, but it's all about Regina. Emma's not even allowed to be happy about Hook being alive because Regina is sad.

Then there's the way she "fought" for Henry in season one. She's worried that Emma will take him away from her. But she fights by trying to destroy Emma and trying to "win" against her. It doesn't seem to cross her mind to fight for Henry by actually being a good mother to Henry and being nice to him. She's doing things she knows will hurt him so she can beat Emma. The one thing she does is give him the videogame, but that's to distract him from the book she doesn't want him to have. She doesn't spend time with him (because she's too busy with her scheming). She shows absolutely not evidence of caring for him that he can see. She just acts cold and angry and critical. Then she has the nerve to tell him early in season 2 after taking him prisoner that she's not good at loving, and this is supposed to cover for the gaslighting and trying to destroy things he loves.

I'd say it's brilliant characterization because it's so consistent and remains even when she's not actively evil, but I don't think, based on their interviews, that they see the narcissism. They really do think she's a victim and an underdog and that she's a true hero. If it weren't for the way the writers talk about her and for the way all the other characters react to her, she'd have been one of the best villains and gray heroes ever because she's got such serious personality flaws that aren't overcome by her turn to the good.

[KingOfHearts]

It actually makes complete sense that Regina would be written as a narcissist, because in the source material, vanity was the Evil Queen's defining characteristic. Regina expands that into something slightly less cartoonish and broad. It isn't just that Snow is prettier than her, but that the kingdom adored Snow for her kindness and generosity. Regina also isn't simply jealous of her, but of everyone who gets something she wants. Regina is ultimately, for better or worse, a great adaptation of the original character.

[KingOfHearts]

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Their messaging is always contradictory.  She let 40 years of her life be consumed with revenge because of the loss of a man. If that isn't being defined by a man, I don't know what is.

It's funny to watch the scene from 4x20, where even Zelena points it out that Regina's happy ending was defined by a man. And of course, Regina says, "My happy ending is not Robin Hood. He just happens to be in it." Then after he left the picture, she was in danger of reverting to the Evil Queen. It was a total repeat of the Marian debacle, and not to mention Daniel. She tried killing Sheriff of Nottingham for pretending to be Robin, and later she killed Graham for betraying her. Her motives for murder and evil tend to revolve around the men in her life, including Henry Jr. 

Edited September 1, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I would love to see Colin and Lana both in something else as well

I think Lana might be typecast. She hasn't been in much else. Regina has been by far her biggest and most iconic role. It's really hard for me to picture her playing anything else. Even as Roni or Redeemed!Regina, she wasn't all that different. Of course, I'm not sure how much of that is at fault with the writers or directors. (IMO, Colin has done better with the nuances of playing a slightly different persona. Roni never came off as the Hot Topic cashier she was meant to be.)

Edited January 2, 2018 by KingOfHearts