Regina, the Evil Queen: The Only Happy Ending Will Be Hers

[Curio]

Now that we know the writers always intended on bringing the Evil Queen back for the Season 5 finale, I'm even more baffled by their decision to not have Regina confront any of her victims in The Underworld. Wouldn't that have been a better set up for Regina's pity party epiphany in Neal's apartment? Wouldn't seeing Percival or Graham or Owen's Dad remind Regina that there's still unpaid karma from her past, which would finally be the turning point in realizing that she feels trapped by the inner Evil Queen inside her? And wouldn't that have been a much better motivation for Regina to want to split herself in two if she legitimately had some difficult confrontations in The Underworld where nice people brought up valid points about how terrible Regina used to be? Why would the writers actively avoid that and think that it was more important for Regina's character development to only interact with her family who automatically forgives her and give her a freaking horse redemption? I just don't get it.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Curio

[profdanglais]

Regina's characterisation is contradictory because she does whine about how she can't have nice things (happy endings, boyfriends) that she doesn't necessarily deserve, but also has some legitimate feelings about dealing with her worst traits. I can completely understand her when she says she doesn't like being good. It's unfortunately egregious in the case of the Evil Queen, because her badness is so very very bad, but when there's something about you that you feel is part of what makes you yourself and people are always telling you that you need to change it because it's not acceptable to them, that can be really upsetting and can make you resent what they want you to be.

I have a really bad temper, of the explosive sort. When I get angry I need to do something to express it, and that often upsets people. I feel that expressing anger is better than bottling it up and letting it fester until it becomes bitterness and resentment, but I am very much in the minority with that opinion and I consistently have trouble with both personal and work relationships because of it. When people judge me for expressing my temper it feels like they're judging me, the person I am, and honestly my first instinct is to tell them to go fuck themselves. This is who I am and I hate when people tell me I have to change in order to be acceptable to them. Rationally, intellectually, of course I understand that we have to have certain standards of behaviour in order for society to function but emotionally I hate being told that this flaw in my character is so unacceptable that I have to keep it in check at all times or I'm not fit to be with. Now granted, when I have a tantrum I mostly just yell and swear while Regina's tantrums end in torched villages, but adjusted for scale the principle is the same. She doesn't want to be good because the evil side is part of her and fuck everyone who won't accept her as she is, bad as well as good. It seems like although she understands that she needs to redeem herself in order to keep her friends and family, emotionally she resents what they require of her and wishes she doesn't have to do it. To me, that's understandable, and human. It's also what makes Regina's redemption different from Hook's. He seems genuinely to want to be a different person, to suppress his darker impulses and leave his past behind him. Part of that is spurred by Emma but a lot comes from him. If he lost Emma he would still be good, as we saw in Last Rites when he thought he'd never see her again but still put himself at risk to defeat Hades. Regina's redemption is motivated solely by what she feels she has to do to be accepted. She doesn't want to change herself, she just wants other people to love her. If they'd be willing to love the Evil Queen part of her, she wouldn't work so hard to suppress that part. Its hard work controlling negative character traits and understandable to just want them to be gone. If Jekyll Juice could take my temper away, not gonna lie I'd seriously consider it. So even though Regina is whiny and self-centred, her inner conflict is, for some of us at least, very relatable. 

[Curio]

That's an interesting take on Regina's viewpoint. Though the way you recognize your temper means you're leaps and bounds ahead of Regina in terms of self-actualization. Regina still lacks so much self-awareness that while she was complaining to Emma about her lot in life and how she'd "rather suffer than see that pain on the people I care about," she doesn't realize she already contradicted her statement numerous times in the same exact conversation. Did Regina not see Emma's massive eye roll when she doubted her hacking skills? Did Regina not see the look of pain on Emma's face when she mentioned wanting to murder Hook? Doesn't the fact that Regina's initial instinct to murder Hook—and to go into such visual imagery in her mind that she actually thought of ripping his throat out and seeing his inside organs—mean that she actually does want to see pain on the people she cares about? Perhaps Hook isn't someone she cares about, but Regina doesn't make the connection that an action like that would cause Emma pain as well. Regina is very narrow-minded when she talks about the consequences of her actions and only thinks about how bad things happen to her, which is rather ironic considering she's the one who yells at Snow and Emma for not thinking about the consequences of their actions.

[Rumsy4]

Curio, I definitely think Regina should have faced some of her victims in the Underworld. That would have made the "karma" remark more organic. Also, I disagree with Regina that she hated every minute of doing good. This mindset made sense for S4A Regina. There, she was actively struggling between  killing "Marian" and doing the right thing. However, in S5, she seemed so very caught up in how good she was being, which Zelena called her out on several times. So, having Regina say that she disliked doing the right thing was just BS put in to introduce the light vs dark struggle and the Jekyll/Hyde plot. Or maybe they were being subtle, and meant that Regina hates doing good when she doesn't have everything she deigns necessary for her happiness. 

[Camera One]

I thought the Regina/Emma convo was pretty good the first time, but I was reading the text since Adam posted it on Twitter:

"Many years ago -- I had a choice.  Snow White lied.  It started a series of events leading to the death of someone I loved dearly.  I could have chosen to forgive..."

Maybe it was the short staccato sentences.  Maybe it was where she began the story.  How did it start with Snow White lying?  Didn't it start with Snow White telling Regina's secret to Cora?  And look how her story does NOT mention Cora murdering Daniel, so she is still minimizing what her mother did, framing everything as a result of what Snow did.  Clearly, Cora would have killed Daniel regardless.  Not to mention Cora was the one who brought Snow into the picture so the little girl could be manipulated for the sole purpose of sticking it to Snow's mother.  CORA started the series of events.  Regina knows that now.  And yet she's still telling the same story.

Given how Regina is still placing the blame on Snow, I really don't see how Snow or Emma can even begin to be her friend.  

Edited May 19, 2016 by Camera One

[Mathius]

WOW. This is a new, novel concept for Season 6! I'm excited!

[KAOS Agent]

I was thinking that rather than retread the Evil Queen going after the Charmings and Storybrooke citizens for the 1952264th time, they should have had the Evil Queen take on another evil entity. Maybe the Black Fairy kidnaps/curses/harms Pistachio. Have her team up with Zelena in a revenge quest. Give Regina a dilemma about whether it's ever a good thing to be evil and let that play out. That way you get a different character pairing and a new avenue for character development with the Mills sisters. Why must this show continually recycle its storylines?

[Joanh23]

The more I think about how Regina faced the Evil Queen in this finale, the more I wish this story had been told in S4 - with Marion (a woman Regina killed in the past) "returning" and ruining her future with Robin, this was the perfect time to have Regina (and Robin) face her past as the Evil Queen.  Instead they completely ignored this story and had Regina focus on Operation Mongoose.  Now they want to tell this story in S6, and in order to get Regina upset enough that she could revert back to the EQ, they had to kill off Robin.   So they've had to manufacture new drama for Regina at the end of S5, when they had perfectly setup the same story for S4.

From the moment Operation Mongoose was announced most people knew that Regina would come to realize that the only person responsible for her happiness is herself, and I'm guessing that in S6 Regina will come to realize that she is made up of both the EQ and Regina, and that she'll have to reabsorb the EQ into herself.  I'm not even a Regina fan, but I do think the writers are doing a disservice to her character by setting up this conflict now, if they hadn't been in such a rush to show Regina and Robin are soul mates they could have had Regina deal with her past as the EQ, and then have her get together with Robin.  It just shows that A&E don't always think their story lines through...

[Curio]

6 minutes ago, Joanh23 said:

 It just shows that A&E don't always think their story lines through...

I almost wonder if they've over-thought this one. Regina is the character that has probably been inside Adam & Eddy's heads the longest, since they always talk about how the show was created because they wanted to see what would happen if the Evil Queen got her happy ending. Because of that, they probably had her entire character arc mapped out in their heads before they even filmed the Pilot episode. Everyone else in the cast seems to be a bit more flexible in terms of where their character could potentially end up when the series finale airs, but I think A&E have a very specific ending for Regina, which is why her characterization doesn't seem as organic as everyone else's. Captain Hook's redemption from villain to hero is much more natural and realistic because he wasn't introduced until Season 2, so in a way, the writers were forced to not be so attached to him and couldn't think in terms of firm timelines for his character. But with Regina, I think they knew exactly how she would act in Season 1 and know exactly how they want her to end the series. It's that rigidness that gives us these repetitive and inorganic middle seasons with her character. If they allowed themselves to shift their final plan for her character, I think she wouldn't be given these terribly predictable story lines like Operation Mongoose and now her Evil Queen alter ego. But they're probably being stubborn about their final vision, so they need to keep coming up with contrived ways of keeping Regina in neutral until ABC announces the final season end date. The same thing seems to be happening with Rumple as well.

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Joanh23 said:

The more I think about how Regina faced the Evil Queen in this finale, the more I wish this story had been told in S4 - with Marion (a woman Regina killed in the past) "returning" and ruining her future with Robin, this was the perfect time to have Regina (and Robin) face her past as the Evil Queen.  Instead they completely ignored this story and had Regina focus on Operation Mongoose.  Now they want to tell this story in S6, and in order to get Regina upset enough that she could revert back to the EQ, they had to kill off Robin.   So they've had to manufacture new drama for Regina at the end of S5, when they had perfectly setup the same story for S4.

It's basically a repeat of the dreadful S4, but with the addition of the Evil Queen to S4 Woegina. I agree that they didn't want Regina to face her past when it came to her actual victim Marian. That would've raised questions on what on earth Robin saw in her. So, now they're basically regressing Regina to tell their "cool" story in a way that separates Regina from the consequences of her evil actions. 

[Mathius]

Quote

The same thing seems to be happening with Rumple as well.

Yeah, it seems they had a five-year plan for Rumple, and it was progressing just fine until the actual fifth year happened and it must have become clear to them that Rumple was going to have to stay on longer.  So we had a natural evolution between Rumple's whole arc of the first three seasons that revolved heavily around his son, his son's death that pushed him over the edge into pure villainy (since the Blue Fairy said in Season 1 that Baelfire was the only thing keeping Rumple's humanity in tact), being the pure villain of Season 4, ending with the Darkness removed from him, and then the big fake-out redemption arc of 5A before he reclaimed the Darkness in a way that made him darker and more powerful than ever.  At this point, there is literally nothing to do with him but take him down.  But instead, we've gotten this fresh new Rumbelle angst and baby drama that is continuing into next season, and it very much feels like a rehashing of old Rumbelle angst and his drama with Baelifre just to stall for time, and they won't actually allow Rumple to be defeated once and for all until they know for sure it's the last season. 

Quote

But with Regina, I think they knew exactly how she would act in Season 1 and know exactly how they want her to end the series. It's that rigidness that gives us these repetitive and inorganic middle seasons with her character. If they allowed themselves to shift their final plan for her character, I think she wouldn't be given these terribly predictable story lines like Operation Mongoose and now her Evil Queen alter ego.

Again, I suspect it was a five-year plan: have her be the villain, then have her get redeemed and integrated with the heroes and Charming family, then have the final conflict regarding her and her internal struggle.  But unlike with Rumple, where it was going smoothly until just recently, the plan for Regina fell apart in the second season, where they decided they couldn't wait to jump-start her redemption arc, and then again in the third season, where 3B rushed at break-neck speed to give her all sorts of rewards.  They'd reached this point too soon, and so they stalled with Operation Mongoose, then with go-nowhere "Savior" arcs in Season 5, and now they're finally reaching the final conflict but still have to stall AGAIN by having the Evil Queen come out of her and have her face her externally for a while before inevitably reabsorbing her and then actually moving on to the real final conflict. I dread what will happen if we actually get a Season 7 now, because that would mean even more stalling!

Edited May 19, 2016 by Mathius

[Camera One]

I agree A&E have an endpoint in place for Regina, but I'm not sure they knew any of the details either.  If they did some long-range planning, they wouldn't have written Regina doing a 180 flip-flop by mid-Season 2.  That set a record for how fast a character could be ruined.  

If they weren't planning to write for Robin Hood anyway, why not have him choose Marian over Regina and reject her when he found out what she did to his wife and the villages in the Enchanted Forest?  That would have left Regina devastated and she could have made the same speech about how her suffering is so intense.

[Rumsy4]

The writers have ignored two obvious set-ups for Regina's redemption to take place organically. The biggest was Marian's return. Robin ought to have had some conflicted feelings about dating the woman who had paraded his wife around, and would have executed her. In original timeline, Regina did kill Marian, and separated her from her family. Which outcome did not change even with Emma's meddling. (Jessica Jones handled a slightly similar plot really well.)

The second biggest was the Underworld arc. If Regina can't confront her past without throwing a pity party about being a bigger victim than her victims, it only makes her look like a petulant child. Another idea would have been to have Robin break-up with Regina over conflict regarding Pistachio. That could have been a very interesting way to challenge Regina's redemption. She would be torn over giving Zelena a second chance, or standing by Robin's decisions. Robin and Zelena would share custody over Pistachio, and Robin would continue living in the forest. Then, they can either patch up Outlaw Queen, or just relegate him to forgotten character island. But I think that was too much of a bold storytelling choice for A&E. 

[Mathius]

They also could have had her betray Cora.  Or make the connection between Zelena's irrational hatred of her and her irrational hatred of Snow. 

But no, they somehow ignored each and every obvious set-up, because that would have been too much work or something.  They are clearly not interested in giving her any self-awareness, or empathy, or redemptive acts directly related to her crimes.  They just want the whole cast to forgive her, call her a hero, and be done with it.  It is a mind-boggling waste of potential interesting material for the character to work with.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Mathius

[Mari]

Do they not want to, or do they just not see the need.  I agree with what you're saying, but based on interviews they've given, and the reaction of some Regina fans, I wonder if they think they've already amply demonstrated all that.

[KingOfHearts]

I don't buy Regina hating doing good. That's just not how she's been portrayed in 5B. The show completely ignores the satisfaction of doing the right thing. Regina is acting like she got whatever she wanted when she was evil, which wasn't the case. She was even more miserable than she is now. I'm so tired of her claiming the universe is against her after concluding she is in charge of her own happiness. I wanted Emma to say, "Crap happens to everyone, Regina." Her reasoning for remaining on the side of the angels is that she'll lose her friends and family if she reverts. But it's not that she cares about them, rather she doesn't want to lose her moral support. If she loved others, she wouldn't be so tempted to do bad things to them.

Granted, she is still a recovering psychopath. But that element was forgotten for nearly 3 seasons, only to conveniently come up again in the S5 finale because the plot needed it. The writers have gone out of their way to convince us she's a hero and 110% redeemed. Now they've turned a 180 and said the Evil Queen is still alive and well. While that makes sense, where was that logic before? Her characterization, especially in regards to her redemption, is incredibly inconsistent. Some days she's the bringer of light, and others she's a crazed lunatic about to burst. Her emotions are a plot device, not an organic sense of character.

Edited May 20, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

31 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

The Evil Queen was an actual character way back when. Despite being a psychopath, she had real emotions and human desires. There wasn't a difference between "Regina", "Mayor Mills" or "The Evil Queen". They were all spun from the same wool. That's why the split in this episode was so cheapening. The Evil Queen is no longer a full person - she's a sub-personality of Regina's. All she represents is a dark thread. The concept of the cliffhanger saps away Regina's dynamism and leaves her in a black or white state. As a fan of all her personas, I hate that. I've been invested in her as a whole, not in separate ways.

That's what makes no sense.  How the Evil Queen acted was a result of her insecurities and her use of anger and scapegoating to avoid facing the truth.  So separating out the Evil Queen just makes her feel like a cardboard cut-out, like a mascot at Disneyland Park.  Wouldn't she also have Regina's childhood memories and experienced all the events that shaped Regina?

Someone asked if Regina's first instincts are that of the Evil Queen, and Adam said they would explore that next season. How can you explore a completely simplified version of a character?  What part stays and what part is part of "The Evil Queen"?  Does Regina not experience anger anymore now?  If viewers can't buy or believe the premise, the whole arc can't work (see: The Author arc).

Edited May 22, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

On May 22, 2016 at 10:57 PM, Camera One said:

Someone asked if Regina's first instincts are that of the Evil Queen, and Adam said they would explore that next season. How can you explore a completely simplified version of a character?

I think this kind of goes along with something I was responding to in the finale episode thread:

Quote

Regina doesn't actually want to murder Hook.

I think, or at least what I'm hoping the writers are shooting for here, is that the Evil Queen is like Regina's id. If you break Regina's character up into the id, ego, and superego, the Evil Queen is Regina's id, and her "normal" personality is the ego and superego. (Her superego is still a work in progress.) But by removing her id with the Jekyll Juice, she's taken away her basic instincts. So I have to disagree, I think a part of Regina wants to murder Hook, but it's her id that is driving that instinct. Just because she has an ego and superego to override that natural instinct doesn't mean the initial thought of murdering him doesn't exist or matter. "Normal" Regina next season should technically be really boring because stripping away the id means getting rid of her basic aggression and sexual instincts, which are basically the two defining characteristics of her character. If the writers explain the Evil Queen as Regina's id, it would also help explain to the audience that it's necessary for Regina to keep that part of her personality because everyone has an id, hers just happens to be way worse than everyone else.

[Camera One]

Can't wait for 6B and the arrival of Freud and the Land of Psychoanalysis.

[Curio]

Not going to lie, a villainous Freud would be so much fun.

[Shanna Marie]

Stemming from a discussion in the speculation thread ... I'm trying to figure out how this whole Regina vs. the Evil Queen thing should work.

As much as they like to say that she's not that person anymore, the Evil Queen was Regina. It wasn't like Emma as the Dark One, where she was essentially possessed with another entity that brought darkness with it, and removing that entity brought her back to normal. It was Good Regina -- the wide-eyed innocent who liked horseback riding, loved a stableboy, and rescued a princess -- who made the string of decisions that turned her into the Evil Queen. Granted, a lot of it happened because of Rumple manipulating her and drawing upon her darker nature, but it still involved aspects of her personality that already existed or the manipulation wouldn't work (again, a comparison to Emma, who managed to resist Rumple's attempts at manipulating her into darkness). So removing the Evil Queen as a separate entity means removing something that naturally existed within Regina. JekyllGina should be very different from even the moderately good Regina we've seen over the past few seasons. She should have absolutely no darker impulses, no anger, no temper, no crazy eyes, no snarling, no urge toward revenge, no jealousy.

But then that brings up the emotional impact on her. If she's lost the part of her that made all those bad choices that turned her into the Evil Queen and she's 100 percent good now, how does she live with the guilt of what she's done? A truly good person would take responsibility rather than scapegoating her evil side and absolving herself of all evil (though I think that's what the show is going to indicate is happening). But she should still have those memories of doing all those things, and wouldn't remembering ripping out hearts and crushing them, burning villages, and murdering her father utterly horrify someone who has no dark impulses? One of the issues in Regina's so-called redemption is that she's shown no signs of guilt for her past actions, and yet her actions are so immense that anyone who did let herself feel guilt would be utterly paralyzed by it. How does someone who's seen the light cope with having committed mass murder? And that's regular reformed Regina. How would a totally good person with no dark impulses deal with the memory of mass murder? I bet you the show doesn't go there at all.

That then brings up the question of what good they thought they were doing for Regina in urging her to take the potion. I guess they were removing her dark urges and her temptation to be evil, but they don't seem to have considered that guilt part. They seem to think that in taking away the Evil Queen, they're taking away the guilt and the feeling of being cursed, but I'd think it would make matters even worse. Jekyll is moderately functional because he wasn't a bad person to begin with. He was a good man who was horrified by even his slight dark impulses and wanted to get rid of them. He didn't start doing awful things until he separated the darkness without his good side and became Hyde. Giving the same treatment to an actually evil person brings up all sorts of interesting possibilities that I doubt this show will delve into.

[Curio]

7 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

If she's lost the part of her that made all those bad choices that turned her into the Evil Queen and she's 100 percent good now, how does she live with the guilt of what she's done? A truly good person would take responsibility rather than scapegoating her evil side and absolving herself of all evil (though I think that's what the show is going to indicate is happening).

Maybe this will be the arc where Regina finally apologizes to the Charming family for everything that she's done, and she'll finally confess to Emma that she killed Graham, and she'll be the one who apologizes to Emma for not being a good enough friend.

Ha, yeah... I know. Never going to happen.

I still don't understand the reasoning behind Emma and Snow pushing Regina to take the Jekyll Juice. Also, wouldn't Hook be against the principle of it? He's a villain who's done a lot of shitty things like Regina, but he lives with those choices and tries to atone for them. Wouldn't he be kind of offended at a fellow villain taking the easy route out? (Hm, this sounds depressingly similar to Operation Mongoose...) Did Emma run this plan by him? Wouldn't a conversation between Hook and Emma about Jekyllina sway Emma away from supporting Regina's decision to do this? I could maybe see Snow having rose-tinted glasses about the Jekyll Juice, but Emma should not have been on board with it.

I think it would have been a lot more in character if Rumple or Jekyll convinced Regina to take the Jekyll Juice with the intention of using Evil Regina as a means to an end. Rumple could have set Regina up and made her believe that by crushing the Evil Queen's heart she'd be rid of that dark side of her forever, but really, he was just manipulating her because he wanted to work with the Evil Queen again secretly, and he knew that it would take more than crushing a heart to destroy her. So for the first half of the arc, Rumple and the Evil Queen would secretly be off together doing evil schemes, and then Regina and the Charming Clan would be oblivious to it because they'd all believe the Evil Queen was gone for good. Then the end of the arc would be the heroes realizing the Evil Queen is in fact still alive, and the finale would be the inevitable "It was Rumple's plan all along!" reveal.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Curio

[Camera One]

Snow and Emma pushed the Jekyll Juice because they were concerned friends who found it difficult to watch Regina suffering.  They wanted the best for Regina.  Plus don't forget Snow is partly responsible for Regina becoming The Evil Queen in the first place, so she has an obligation to help; and Emma knew how hard it was to fight Dark Swan and Regina has it so much worse.  It was a touching moment of female empowerment with these three bosom friends.

*Above = the correct response if you are ever interviewed for a writing job on "Once Upon a Time"

Edited May 27, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

It is actually in-character for Snow to suggest Regina to split herself and kill the "evil" half, if we take into consideration the eggnapping nonsense. It's not like any of these "heroes" ever learn from their mistakes. It's weird for Emma to go along with it, but then, she was gung-ho about "Operation Stupid" when she found out about it. When it comes to Regina, the REC makes everyone around her act like idiots.

[Camera One]

The eggnapping reason was a bit more immediate and dire, though, so I don't buy it even for Snow, whose motivational speeches are all about just waiting and things will get better, and don't forget, there's an easy way and a hard way.  There was no immediate danger to leaving Regina as is.

[justmythoughts]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

It is actually in-character for Snow to suggest Regina to split herself and kill the "evil" half, if we take into consideration the eggnapping nonsense. It's not like any of these "heroes" ever learn from their mistakes. It's weird for Emma to go along with it, but then, she was gung-ho about "Operation Stupid" when she found out about it. When it comes to Regina, the REC makes everyone around her act like idiots.

If we take into consideration that potion Snow drank to forget Charming, back in S2, I guess,she should have learnt that you cant kill ou hide any part of you without losing some significant amount of who you really are.

But her memory is as good as the writters. Which means that bringing EQ back was something they wanted and they would do anything for that. These Regina split does not sound good for me, as many have said: I cant see how you can rip off part of you, your personality, instincts and not become a different person... Even a memory (as Regins discovered in "Sisters" ) can change all your perspective on life.

[YaddaYadda]

I think it would be a cop-out if without the Evil Queen, Regina still has the same mean sass, and the same personality that she gained post becoming the Evil Queen. I'm expecting to see Regina like she was before Daniel's death (obviously not as naive), but with some edge. I find that in a lot of ways, even though Regina changed, the Evil Queen persona gave her a lot of confidence because that's what people were scared of, that she would go batshit on them. And she used that a lot in season 5 whenever she and Zelena had a fight. Are people going to be scared of her like they were before?

I'd like to see a scene like we got in 4A when the town lost power, and Leroy, Granny and Happy pretty much demanding Mary Margaret fix it. 

I've been wondering about the magic side of things. Now that the EQ is "gone", is Regina's magic all light (please no)? I don't expect to see her be able to conjure up fire balls since that according to her was all the EQ. Is there something that falls between dark magic and light magic? 

[Shanna Marie]

16 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

I think it would be a cop-out if without the Evil Queen, Regina still has the same mean sass, and the same personality that she gained post becoming the Evil Queen. I'm expecting to see Regina like she was before Daniel's death (obviously not as naive), but with some edge.

She should probably have less edge than pre-Daniel's death now that all of her dark impulses and the entire bad side of her personality have all been removed. The girl she was at Daniel's death was the one who was fantasizing about murdering Snow, who sent her mother into Wonderland, who chose to marry the king even though her mother was gone so that she'd have a better chance of getting revenge on Snow, and who was susceptible to Rumple's tempting her with magic. That "good" person was the one who made all the decisions that created the Evil Queen. She may not have had the confidence and sass, but if she hadn't had a fair amount of darkness in her, she wouldn't have made those choices. Jekyllina may still have some confidence and be less naive, but she shouldn't be making "sassy" cutting remarks. I'd hope she'd be less narcissistic. Then again, is narcissism "dark"? Could she be lacking in anger and meanness while still being so self-absorbed that she totally lacks empathy? She may not want to rip out throats because she's having a bad day, but she still might not be able to grasp that other people feel the same kind of pain she feels. Yeah, I know the writers don't see her that way, but that's how they write her, like she believes she's the only person to suffer and never realizing that other people have gone through the same kinds of things (usually because of her).

We're already in iffy territory, since the supposedly 100 percent good Regina was willing to rip out and crush a heart, isn't curled up in a fetal position from guilt, and hasn't apologized to anyone, unless that's what was happening on the trip back to Storybrooke.

[Camera One]

Quote

The girl she was at Daniel's death was the one who was fantasizing about murdering Snow, who sent her mother into Wonderland, who chose to marry the king even though her mother was gone so that she'd have a better chance of getting revenge on Snow, and who was susceptible to Rumple's tempting her with magic. That "good" person was the one who made all the decisions that created the Evil Queen.

I thought she chose to continue magic with Rumple and marry the king because she became obsessed with the idea of using magic to resurrect Daniel.  At that point, was her obsession with revenge on Snow as strong?  Though I haven't rewatched Season 1-2 for years, so I don't remember exactly.  The pre-Daniel death Regina did risk her own life to save Snow, and was rightly just fed up with Cora's poor treatment of her but clearly unable to stand up to her, so I think she was a good person at that point.  Though strangely, she did not blame Cora for Daniel's death, even to this day.  The characterization is a complete mess.  And we're talking about the Writers' favorite character, so how can we expect more for the others?

Edited May 28, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

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At that point, was her obsession with revenge on Snow as strong? 

The scene in question is in 2x02, just days before Regina's wedding to Leopold. Regina fantasizes about strangling Snow after she finds the ring Daniel proposed to her with. But she dismisses it and shakes it off. However, in 1x18, she says, "I should have let her die on that horse." The murderous intent was there, but wasn't fully realized until after Daniel couldn't be resurrected. 

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I thought she chose to continue magic with Rumple and marry the king because she became obsessed with the idea of using magic to resurrect Daniel.

I'm not sure why she decided to marry the king, though. Rumple wasn't forcing her to do that. (That we know of.) If she changed her mind it must have been a snap decision. She complained about not wanting to marry Leopold a lot.

Edited May 28, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Daniel's death created the psychotic break, then.  Though I've always thought they went overboard with the "opposite" characterization of Regina pre-Daniel.  Look at 5B's childhood fantasy; Young Regina could have been Young Snow.  

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

The scene in question is in 2x02, just days before Regina's wedding to Leopold. Regina fantasizes about strangling Snow after she finds the ring Daniel proposed to her with. But she dismisses it and shakes it off. However, in 1x18, she says, "I should have let her die on that horse." The murderous intent was there, but wasn't fully realized until after Daniel couldn't be resurrected. 

I'm not sure why she decided to marry the king, though. Rumple wasn't forcing her to do that. (That we know of.) If she changed her mind it must have been a snap decision. She complained about not wanting to marry Leopold a lot.

Neither am I. With her mother gone, Regina could have done anything she wanted at that point.  

[Dianthus]

Honestly, after listening to her piss and moan for all that time, I probably would've injected her with the Jekyll Juice myself, just to shut her ass up! She's such a whiny little diaper baby, I just can't even.

Hook was betrayed by his father, exploited as child labor (under difficult/dangerous conditions), watched - helpless to act - as his beloved brother died, watched - again, helpless to act - as his lover died, just before he was maimed by her killer. He's taken a ton of abuse, had Darkness forced on him against his express wishes, and had to say good-bye to Emma for a second time when she left him in Underbrooke. Despite all that, he was just glad to be alive again, glad to see Emma again, and then sad for the loss of Robin. It's like night and day with these two.

[justmythoughts]

I guess some people simpathize with Regina because it is the easiest path. You say one good word, do one good deed, and voila: happily ever after.

Killian and Emma seem legit to me because they know happiness is a path you walk everyday. And sometimes you miss the mark. It is life.

Even Snow and Charming annoyed me sometimes with the whole: lets be heroes, always 110% good... And the writters seem to understand that it is boring, so they created some grey moments (although most of them were a total failure - black hearted Snow, eggnapping nonsense...)

But with Regina they dont get it! Apparently the out persona is A&E great idea and how they really think: she is pure evil and pure good, thetefore lets separate it. No freaking one is like that. 

Ps: sorry for the grammar mistakes, typing on the cellphone is a nightmare and english is my second language.

[Camera One]

9 hours ago, Curio said:

 The writers are too afraid to bring up Percival/The Fury again because they don't want to tarnish their poor Regina's reputation, but they can't run away from Regina's past in an arc that's going to be all about exploring that past part of her. It just makes no sense to me. At all.

They are very good at "exploring" Regina's past without her blaming herself.  Her pity party speech to Emma implied that the Evil Queen impulse was some misfortune she has to suffer through constantly.  The 5B premiere featured The Evil Queen, but it was more Henry Sr. accepting his part in failing Regina, while Regina gleefully trying to kill Snow (again) was just a side dish.  The Regina/Zelena/Cora episode was all about how Cora ruined Regina's life.  The Evil Queen made an appearance in the Young Snow/Hercules episode... yeah, present-day Regina gave Snow a pep-talk but she didn't reflect on or feel any regret over or take responsibility for her plan to get the citizens of the kingdom to turn on Young Snow.  Even in that Percival episode, which was actually a milestone at the time with Regina finally admitting that *something* was her fault, the Writers had Charming kill Percival off as if he was a cardboard cutout that no one needed to angst over.  Shouldn't Charming be crying in bed over the dark spot on his heart?  That made it seem like Regina's crime against Percival was not a big deal.

[Rumsy4]

Killing Cora got Snow the title of murderer (Bleeding Through), while Charming got to be heroic by killing Percival. REC.

[KingOfHearts]

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Regina needs to put on her big girl panties and deal with her issues! Unfortunately, that would mean de-woobie-fying her, and the writers clearly aren't willing to do that.

I don't think the problem is Regina herself, but the writing surrounding her. She has dealt with her issues when presented the opportunity a handful of times. (With Geppetto in 4B, her father in 5B, etc.) What breaks her characterization is that no one cares about what she has done to them. If someone has a beef with her, either they change their mind or they die. No one is allowed to be angry with her for more than five minutes. 

So with the Evil Queen in S6, it's expected she is going to do some evil things like ripping out hearts. But no one is going to blame Regina because she's separate, even though in reality they're the same. It's an identical philosophy to what the show has believed for a long time now, just presented more literally. If the final conclusion is that EQ needs to be rejoined, isn't that saying that having a mass murderer inside you is how things should be? Isn't it unsettling (yet obvious) that the Evil Queen has been inside a "redeemed" Regina this whole time? It makes her goodness look phony, like a mask in front of her inner darkness.

If the writers really want the Evil Queen back, couldn't they have selected a more creative way to do it that doesn't undermine all of Regina's development? Wipe her post-curse memories or something? I could see her creating a potion to forget Robin existed, then something going wrong. Have the Olympian Crystal interfere like it did with the portal.

Edited June 9, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

10 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I could see her creating a potion to forget Robin existed, then something going wrong.

Since they love recycling, there's even precedent, with Snow using the forgetting potion to get over not being able to be with Charming, but what happened was that she forgot all about love. Snow White with no memory of love was kind of hilarious because they used it to spoof the Disney version. But imagine Regina with no memory of love, with hate being all that's left.

I think one of the other writing problems with Regina, aside from no one being allowed to be mad at her for what she's done, is that they frame her pain in a very selfish way, and I'm not sure they realize that this is what they're doing. With Daniel, the way she talked about wanting revenge on Snow, it was because Snow ruined her life and caused her pain. She hardly even talks about Daniel. It's not about getting justice for him or avenging him. She even destroys one of the last things she has of his in order to do what she thinks will make her happy. When she thought she'd lost Robin the first time, when his wife came back, she accused Emma of ruining her life. There was no thought as to how this affected Robin and Roland. She doesn't seem to have allowed herself a moment of joy on their behalf, even though she'd just heard Robin talk about how painful it was to lose Marian. Her response, in spite of claiming to love Robin, was all about how it affected her. Now with Robin's death, it's again all about her, that the pain is a curse on her, and maybe even it's punishment for her evil, without a thought about Robin being the one who actually died, no mention of how his orphaned son might be affected.

I suspect that this really comes down to the writers only caring about her, while Daniel, Robin, and Roland are little more than cardboard cutouts supporting her, but the result is that it makes her look incredibly self-centered. She doesn't seem to even consider the feelings of people she supposedly cares about.

[justmythoughts]

Exactly as said above, Snow drank a potion back in S1 I guess to forget Charming but it also made her being kind of mercyless, she was going to kill EQ. They could have tried something different to show that Regina has a soft side now, she is a mother, she has love and friends... But if she loses this perspective she could easily fall into being the EQ again. This separation thing bothers me deeply!

I like Regina and the EQ, but the way she is written... It is just too much. She rarely acknowledges all the things she has done not in a general way, she does not shows much remorse for separating baby Emma from her parents for 28years, for ripping almost all EF people out and giving them fake and unhappy lives... Few moments she was able to be selfless and usually it was when she barely had a choice. 

This me me me, poor me, my pain, my feelings style is getting tiring. So... Yay S6 seems sooo much fun! (Sarcasm all over the place!)

[KingOfHearts]

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Exactly as said above, Snow drank a potion back in S1 I guess to forget Charming but it also made her being kind of mercyless, she was going to kill EQ. They could have tried something different to show that Regina has a soft side now, she is a mother, she has love and friends... But if she loses this perspective she could easily fall into being the EQ again. This separation thing bothers me deeply!

When Snow drank the potion, she appeared more like her Disney counterpart. I always thought it would be funny if memoryless Regina acted like a kind, innocent Disney Princess. That would be pretty hilarious.

Edited June 9, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[profdanglais]

Whenever I imagine Regina vs the Evil Queen, I can't help thinking about this:

http://assets.amuniversal.com/73fab83025d1012ea5cb00163e41dd5b

[Dianthus]

I still miss Calvin & Hobbes to this very day...sigh.

Obviously, the problem(s) with Regina stem from crappy writing, but, seriously, can you hear Hook whining like a sleep-deprived toddler over the unfairness of life? I'm thinking he would tell her (politely but firmly, in no uncertain terms) to suck it up and deal. Suffering is as much a part of life for good people as bad people, and Regina could see that if she'd just pull her head out of her ass.

[Camera One]

5 minutes ago, Curio said:

This just made me realize how many times in the past year Regina has been used as the character to "remind someone of who they really are." They used Regina as the person to talk Emma down from shooting Lily. They used Regina to talk Dark Hook down and remind him about his father. They used Regina to remind Mary Margaret about Snow White. Why is Regina somehow the magical therapy person who reminds people of their better selves when she doesn't even want to deal with her own dark demons?

I think it's because Regina is supposed to be able to say the truth that people aren't able to face or admit.  With Emma, she was using her sage experience of being on the Dark Side (though apparently she hates doing good).  With Hook, I'm seriously confused how Regina's knowledge of what happened to Hook's father had any weight on Dark Hook changing his mind.  With the Hercules flashback, I guess Regina did Young Snow a favor by making her face a difficult situation and grow from it.  

[Curio]

2 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I guess Regina did Young Snow a favor by making her face a difficult situation and grow from it.  

I'm guessing this is how the writers justify Regina being a "good mom" to Henry, too. Henry had to learn to grow from the gas lighting and became a stronger person because of it, so really, Regina was just doing him a favor. Same explanation will be said about the Dark Curse.

[Mari]

35 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I think it's because Regina is supposed to be able to say the truth that people aren't able to face or admit.  

Which would be interesting, if the writers had purposely framed the story so that the least self-aware character was dispensing all this "wisdom," and the other characters were allowed to react appropriately.

Unfortunately, I think we are supposed to see her as wise, insightful, and concerned about the people in her life.  (Hah.  Hahahahah.)

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Curio said:

Was it logical for Regina to blame Emma for temporarily breaking her and Robin up by saving Marian from being killed by Regina, even though Emma was actually doing Regina a favor by changing history and making it so that Robin's wife wasn't murdered by his current girlfriend? 

It would have been a favor if Robin had actually cared about that little detail. It never came up in conversation. It was never mentioned as a reason as to why Robin was breaking up with Regina. Instead he went on and on about his "code", and sneaking out to have crypt sex with Regina while his "wife" was lying frozen two feet away, I'll never get why the writers made Marian one of Regina's victims, when they never dealt with that aspect.

On 7/1/2016 at 3:55 PM, Mari said:

Which would be interesting, if the writers had purposely framed the story so that the least self-aware character was dispensing all this "wisdom," and the other characters were allowed to react appropriately.

Unfortunately, I think we are supposed to see her as wise, insightful, and concerned about the people in her life.  (Hah.  Hahahahah.)

Regina is the kind of person who is obsessed with the speck in another person's eye while she ignores the plank in her own. :-p

[KingOfHearts]

On July 1, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Mari said:

Which would be interesting, if the writers had purposely framed the story so that the least self-aware character was dispensing all this "wisdom," and the other characters were allowed to react appropriately.

Unfortunately, I think we are supposed to see her as wise, insightful, and concerned about the people in her life.  (Hah.  Hahahahah.)

The Witch from Into the Woods was able to call the heroes out on their wonky moral uprightness, but she was self-aware. The Witch was concerned with what needed to be done and not so much with how to do it. Regina fell into this role in 3A, which kept her as a useful team member to some degree. That's not to say she was helpful or cooperative, but at least willing to get crap done. After she got light magic in 3B, she started becoming holier-than-thou.

Edited July 4, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I keep feeling like they're trying to write Regina as the "Cordelia" of the group (as in Buffy) -- the one who's slightly bitchy in the sense that she's unashamedly self-absorbed in a way that's supposed to be funny and she's so totally unfiltered that she speaks her mind and speaks the truth, even when it's ugly and uncomfortable.

But they've missed the boat in so many ways with that. The rest of the gang didn't cater to Cordelia's every whim and need. They barely tolerated her. They didn't really even consider her a friend. She was someone who just happened to usually be caught up in whatever they were dealing with, and she was capable of getting over her self-absorption to help them. We were supposed to see her as ridiculously self-absorbed rather than as some kind of longsuffering saint. Her lack of filter was consistent and absolute. If she thought something, she said it, so there were no hidden agendas, no pretending to be nice while really holding on to resentments. You wouldn't need to do a spell on her or split off her dark side to get her to admit that she still held a grudge about something another character had done. In fact, they did a rather amusing and insightful bit in the episode in which Buffy could hear other people's thoughts. With everyone else, she'd hear them think something, and then they'd say something very different, revealing that they were presenting false fronts to the world, usually hiding fears and lack of confidence. With Cordelia, Buffy would hear her think something, and then she'd say the exact same thing. And when they turned her into a real heroine instead of just a frenemy, they really humbled her first -- she lost the boyfriend she kind of thought was beneath her to the nerdy girl she'd always mocked, nearly got killed in the aftermath of learning about it, lost all her money, had to take a job she thought was demeaning, couldn't even afford to buy a prom dress, and then she went off to LA to try to be an actress and utterly failed at it.

With Regina, it's like they're trying to do too many things that contradict. She's bitchy and self-absorbed, but she's also a saint, and she's the one who speaks the truth others don't want to hear but can't deal with any criticism or snark aimed at her. She expects others to get over all the things she did in the past when she was an entirely different person, but doesn't let go of things she feels they did to her. She's never really lost all that much or been truly humbled. She didn't have that hitting bottom moment before she was rebuilt into a heroine. Plus, no one is allowed to react to her like any human being would react to something that bitchy who constantly belittles and insults them. Who would keep bending over backward to help a person who fat shamed her and made snarky remarks about eating too much ice cream on the day she went into labor? Regina is a "why let that kind of negativity into your life?" kind of person most people would only tolerate if they absolutely had to, and the relationships are so one-sided that there's no real upside to being friends with her, other than in dire confrontations with magical villains, maybe. They're all friends with Regina and want to help her because the scripts say so, not because of anything organic in the way the characters behave and react to things.

[Curio]

6 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

She's never really lost all that much or been truly humbled. She didn't have that hitting bottom moment before she was rebuilt into a heroine.

The issue is the writers believe Regina has already hit rock bottom(s), but she has never truly had that huge my-life-is-utterly-terrible-and-I-lost-my-friends-and-my-fortune moment compared to some of the other rock bottoms other characters have gone through. I think they attempted a half-assed version of this when she and Robin broke up in Season 4 and she wasn't mayor for a week or two, but if that's the definition of "rock bottom," I should probably update my dictionary. The writers have tried to make it seem like her rock bottoms were losing Daniel and Robin, but she's still had magic, power, or wealth to fall back on. They had a great opportunity to explore a humbling experience where Regina could have lived a day in the life of Robin in the woods without her fancy mansion and wealth, but I have a feeling the writers wouldn't want to humble her or embarrass her in any way, so they'd just write her as this perfect rich person who isn't afraid to get down and dirty and could easily live without her fancy amenities. 

Edited July 5, 2016 by Curio

[Camera One]

I definitely agree with the writers seeing Regina as the Cordelia of the group.  And now Zelena pretty much has the same purpose.

The issue is the writers believe Regina has already hit rock bottom(s), but she has never truly had that huge my-life-is-utterly-terrible-and-I-lost-my-friends-and-my-fortune moment compared to some of the other rock bottoms other characters have gone through.

It doesn't help that they write other characters comforting Regina while ignoring that those characters should themselves have been hitting rock bottom.  One example was making it seem like Regina losing Henry was the biggest deal ever in 3B, and then having Snow comfort her while completely ignoring that Snow herself lost Emma AND Henry.  Or having Emma comfort Regina in the 5B finale, with Regina responding that Emma has no idea what she is going through, even though Regina wouldn't have known Hook was alive.  Or having Regina dismiss Emma's pain as the Dark One because Emma was good so it's easier to resist temptation.