Regina, the Evil Queen: The Only Happy Ending Will Be Hers

[HoodlumSheep]

How the heck is slicing a hand open an attempt at connecting with the character? There is no connection at all! Regina literally just walked up to her, said a couple of lines, sliced Lily's hand and poofed away.

[Camera One]

That is certainly an interesting way of looking at that scene.  That would not have entered my mind at all.

[KingOfHearts]

 

It completely takes away almost all of Regina's personhood and decision making.   It assumes that in any conflict with another person, Regina was the victim, and lays the blame for Regina's actions almost completely at the feet of Cora, Rumple, and Snow.  It makes her basically the puppet of everyone around her, and totally ignores that a great deal of Regina's pain was self-inflicted tantrumming.

The writers want the best of both worlds with Regina. They want her to be "resilient", strong, and independent, but also a victim who has no control over her life that should be pitied. It's an oxymoron. The dictator of the Enchanted Forest, Destroyer of Worlds, was sitting behind a door like a child crying because she lost her boyfriend after one week. The woman who massacred children and cursed a civilization should be sympathized with because no one likes her lasagna. They want her to be two different characters, which cheats us out of both.

 

Can Redeemed Regina be interesting? If they wrote it right, perhaps. Is the Evil Queen fun to watch? Not when she's portrayed as a misunderstood, helpless baby. Just look at Mayor Mills then look at S4 Regina. One is actually has a shot at possible redemption and good characterization. Here's a hint: it's not the latter.

 

In this scenario, the dichotomy just doesn't work.

Edited August 30, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Souris]

LOL! That's perfect. I love a good pun. Especially when they're true!

[KingOfHearts]

There was some mild discussion in the Spoilers thread about Regina being insensitive during dire situations and throwing snarky insults inappropriately.

 

I don't think this would bother me if a couple things occurred. Firstly, the other characters should be able to call her out on it while also being able to make snarky comments when Regina is in a desperate situation. It seems to me that whenever Regina insults a person it's considered "sassy", but whenever someone takes a crack at her it's portrayed as insensitive as kicking a sick puppy dog. Ursula and Cruella can makes jokes about her past, which warrants a whole subplot about Regina not wanting Henry to know about her history. Meanwhile, Regina can remind Snow and Charming that they hired Zelena as their nanny and it's comic relief. It might sound nitpicky, but there's a double standard there whether its entertaining or not.

 

Secondly, if we're to believe Regina's redeemed and developed relationships with people she supposedly cares about, we should see moments of empathy. I understand that sarcasm might be her way of coping with stress. I get that. But that should be a front we the audience should be able to see through in other scenes. Heck, if you want to sell us Outlaw Queen, show us her confessing how she really feels about people to Robin. Her walls shouldn't be coming down in some areas while staying up in others 24/7.

 

This is all assuming she's "redeemed", of course. Otherwise the other characters are dumb for letting a jerk bash them in times of need.

Edited September 24, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[CatMack]

Recently I keep thinking about Regina in comparison to Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Both snarky villains who ended up working with the heroes and being redeemed while still being a smartass, but with the exception of a few plot developments in season 6, I adored Spike, and with the exception of a few scenes here and there, I've grown to loathe Regina.

And I think for me the difference really does come down to how everyone around the character reacts to them. Nobody liked Spike or trusted him at all when he switched sides. They reacted appropriately and in character to his snarkiness and they gave just as much back to him. It took at least a season and a half for any character to really "like" him (Dawn midseason 5, for those who know the show - IMO anyway). Others eventually followed, to varying degrees. Some never liked him. He was always called out in his crap and bad actions lead to more consequences than someone saying his name in a scolding tone of voice. When he bitched about the character he was falling in love with not loving him back because she still saw him as a villain, the narrative didn't validate his sense of victimhood.

I think a lot of that is directly comparable to Regina, and it's not a favorable comparison. Regina's inappropriate comments are most often either not commented on at all or someone mildly rebukes her and that's as far as the reaction goes. Even putting aside whether she's adequately redeemed herself for her numerous past crimes, her being a massive asshole in the present day to almost everyone almost all of the time has no long term consequences in terms of people cheerleading for her. At this point pretty much every main character either talks her up constantly as a reformed hero now, or at worst is silently apathetic. Someone might snark back every now and then, but there's not really any main character willing to go "really? We're pretending the mass murderer is a trustworthy hero now" Main characters doubted Spike's intentions up until the very end on Buffy. He started working with the good guys mid season 4 and by season 7 still had a massive arc revolving around whether he should be killed for his past crimes. They didn't act like being better in the present meant he deserved happiness and all should be forgiven.

Having that balanced POV allows the audience to make up their own mind. Do I agree with character A or character B about this person? Have they earned this or not? It validates multiple views of a single character which IMO is pretty important when you're trying to ask your audience to consider the redemption of mass murderers.

Once doesn't give you the option. It beats you over the head that Regina is redeemed now dammit and if you don't think they actually earned that then too bad. And it stinks because I loved Regina for a long time. But these days she's so saintified 99% of the time that I have to fast forward her scenes for fear of harming my computer out of rage.

I've loved a lot of snarky villains and redeemed villains in my day. Hell, one of my favorite characters on Battlestar Galactica snaps a baby's neck in her first scene. I can handle villain redemption arcs and forgiving past (fictional) atrocities. IMO the writers are trying so hard to make Regina likeable and redeemed by having other characters talk about it, that they forget to just actually make her, you know, likeable and properly redeemed. It's a very familiar concept in scifi and fantasy, and compared to pretty much every other example I can think of Once's version of villain redemption is a shallow cliff notes version. (And for the record I have issues with Rumple and Hook as well, Regina is just the only one bad enough it's destroyed my enjoyment of the character)

Edited September 24, 2015 by CatMack

[KingOfHearts]

 

Once doesn't give you the option. It beats you over the head that Regina is redeemed now dammit and if you don't think they actually earned that then too bad.

Which is ironic because A&E are constantly saying, "The story is how you interpret it!" like it's some big ambiguous, thought-provoking masterpiece. This is almost never true. The writing is extremely definite and follows a strict set of standards. Especially with Regina, there is only one view explored on this show.

Edited September 24, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

Recently I keep thinking about Regina in comparison to Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Both snarky villains who ended up working with the heroes and being redeemed while still being a smartass, but with the exception of a few plot developments in season 6, I adored Spike, and with the exception of a few scenes here and there, I've grown to loathe Regina.

Yes.

I loved Spike. Evil Spike, less evil Spike, trying to be good Spike. I loved pretty much all the Spikes. And, yes, he had a pretty vicious and insulting tongue.

But when he was evil, his comments were antagonistic, and played that way. He was evil, he and everyone else knew it, and his goal was to push buttons and keep people reacting instead of thinking. By the time you hit seasons 4-6, he's being insulting from a place of weakness--it was bravado, to people who rightfully did not like or honor him, and was played that way. Plus, especially in the post-chip seasons, Spike was usually verbally punching in his own weight class, or above it, and everyone knew it.

One difference is that Regina is doing her verbal punching from a place of strength, to people who are supposed to be her close friends are allies, while they are often in pain or distress, frequently because of Regina's fault or to Regina's benefit.

That's not trying to intimidate or off-balance your enemies, and it's not bravado while you're trying to maintain a brave face. It's not affectionate or playful.

It's cruelty.

And a lot of her lines are repetitious, or nonsensical. Spike was clever, and well-read. (I can forgive a lot for a well--placed Shakespeare pun and reference. "We band of bugger'd." Especially if it's from my favorite passage.)

Edited September 24, 2015 by Mari

[Rumsy4]

It's not just her verbal insults that are inappropriate and insensitive. She still makes boastful comments about conquering realms, etc., that we're supposed to think are funny. I too used to enjoy Regina as a character up until Season 2. I even started to like her in 3A. But now, I dislike her and find her boring. She has become a Mary Sue character that brings other characters down as well. It has negatively affected the way I look at Snow and even Emma.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

There's snarky, and there's mean. Snarky can be fun. Mean is hitting below the belt. Like, oh, say snarking about a nine-months pregnant woman (who ended up going into labor later that day) being fat, in a situation in which that woman faces having her newborn taken away from her, after she's already had one newborn taken away from her, thanks to Regina. That's not snarky. That's not even insensitive. That's just mean and nasty, and why would anyone want to be friends with someone like that? It's not even clever. It's the most obvious, boring, lame "joke." "Ha, ha, fat people like ice cream, amIright? And you're pregnant, so you're fat! You've been eating ice cream!" A kindergartener could come up with something wittier than that, and their idea of cutting-edge humor is using the word "poop."

 

Add to that the complete lack of empathy, the inability to recognize anyone else's feelings but her own, and the only reason these people are such good friends with Regina is because the script says they have to be. Normal human beings with real emotions would react to her in a very different way. They might reluctantly ally with her to face a common foe, but they wouldn't be bending over backward to prove their friendship to her or willingly socializing with her.

[Mathius]

Spike actually did hit Regina levels of saintification in Season 7 of BTVS once he got a soul, to the point where a victim of his seeking justice is portrayed as wrong for it.  He was thankfully rewritten back to his old self when he appeared on Angel Season 5 afterward, though, whereas it's clearly too late for Regina to revert due to A&E's worship of her.

 

 

 

They didn't act like being better in the present meant he deserved happiness and all should be forgiven.

 

Um, yes they did, or at least Buffy did and that was all that mattered.  Season 7's biggest fault is that Buffy and Spike became Mary Sues who we're very clearly supposed to always agree with, sympathize with, and consider right, and every single character in opposition to them was portrayed as jerks or idiots.  Faith in particular got a raw deal due to this (she too is a better redemption case than Regina, BTW.)  Seasons 6 and 7 in general were filled with crappy writing.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Mathius

[Camera One]

Replying in OUAT and Other Shows thread.

[formerlyfreedom]

Yes, please, this is the Regina topic - let's not dissect BTVS or any another show in here please!

[KAOS Agent]

I think where Regina's characterization really got thrown off is that they want her to remain with the same sarcastic, antagonistic personality, but still want her to be all heroic and besties with her victims. That doesn't work. You have to see some sort of mellowing in her actions with these people. At the very least, we need to have scenes where we see that the sarcasm and awfulness is just a front. I actually don't see the friendly dynamic lasting the season through though because it's too boring when the main characters are all happy buddies. I expect something to happen to cause serious friction at some point.

 

On a totally different topic, Regina has the opportunity to become my favorite character this season (for at least a week) if she kills Zelena. You can do it, Regina! 

[Mathius]

On a totally different topic, Regina has the opportunity to become my favorite character this season (for at least a week) if she kills Zelena. You can do it, Regina!

Disagree completely. As annoying as Zelena is, Regina is much worse in terms of both the evil deeds she's committed and in terms of how the narrative treats her. Nobody in the show has whitewashed or coddled Zelena, in fact she's treated as worse than she actually is on some points (everyone says she killed Neal, ignoring that Neal killed himself through his own stupidity). I would rather Zelena kill Regina rather than the other way around, though ideally they should kill each other.

[Dianthus]

Going back, very briefly, to the Regina/Spike comparison:

Spike was a lot of things, but he was never a whiny-ass little titty baby like Reggie.

Mathius, Robin was wrong to betray Buffy's trust by putting his personal animosity ahead of the mission. Giles, too.

 

ETA: I can imagine Reggie as redeemable, but likable? Let's just say I have my doubts.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Dianthus

[KingOfHearts]

 

I would rather Zelena kill Regina rather than the other way around, though ideally they should kill each other.

The problem with Regina isn't the character necessarily. It's how other characters react to her. If Regina dies, that's not going to change. She'll be a martyr mentioned in every other episode for the rest of the series. But with Zelena, it's the direct opposite - her base personality is annoying. Everyone around her knows it and treats her as such. If she gets killed, everyone will move on and only mention her in passing at most.

 

To fix the issues with Regina, removing her from the equation or punishing her would be ineffective. The reality is the writing surrounding her is amateur and A&E will just find another character to be their Mary Sue.

Edited September 26, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

We know the writers' bias, from A&E to Jane to the underlings, so of all the characters, Regina will be the last one standing.  Rumple may go because of the actor, and Belle may follow.  Snow, Charming and Henry will continue to be pushed so far to the periphery that they may eventually disappear outright.  Which leaves Regina, Hook and Emma, which is what the show is essentially about now (and you can even argue that we won't even have Real Emma anymore in Season 5).

[KAOS Agent]

 

The problem with Regina isn't the character necessarily. It's how other characters react to her. If Regina dies, that's not going to change. She'll be a martyr mentioned in every other episode for the rest of the series. But with Zelena, it's the direct opposite - her base personality is annoying.

 

I often dislike how the others react to Regina and how the character is handled, but I can actually watch Regina scenes without having my ears bleed. Zelena makes me want to change the channel. I had to force myself to watch her seemingly endless sneering monologue in "Heart of Gold" because I thought something might be important. When Zelena's on for any length of time, I just can't deal with it. I hate her and I would drop the show in a heartbeat if Zelena's given the lead storyline. I think the character needs psychiatric help, but actual, real death is the only way for her to be forever removed from this show, so she's got to go. Whoever offs her gets my eternal gratitude, Regina included.

 

I know Regina's here to stay. She's going to be the BIG HERO! I can be pragmatic about things. Did Greg deserve to die while Regina got to smugly smirk over his death? Absolutely not. But I wanted Greg off my TV, so while Regina's delight in the death of her victim was abhorrent and sick, I was down with him dying if it meant I didn't have to watch him anymore.

[Camera One]

I agree about Regina vs. Zelena.  Despite the bias in the writers, I still find Regina surprisingly watchable most of the time.  But Zelena's long-winded monologues just put me to sleep.  She's a caricature with no grounding, and provides no entertainment value for me.  Even though I like the concept of having the Wicked Witch on the show and she could naturally have become a big bad if Regina had received a coherent redemption arc.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

With Regina, at least you can tell the writers are trying to write a full, drawn-out character. She's arguably one of the deepest on the show. Zelena, by contrast, is shallow. There's nothing else to explore with her because she's given no other dimensions.

[Shanna Marie]

I find Zelena to be moderately entertaining in small doses, especially when used as a contrast to Regina. I think I would actually find Regina somewhat entertaining (though I'd never actually like her) if the other characters responded to her differently. If they reacted to her like I do and treated her like a narcissistic sociopath with histrionic tendencies, it would be a lot of fun. Of course, they'd have to rewrite a lot of the plot lines. If the moment she brought up the idea that she was never allowed to have a happy ending because she was a villain and it was the book's fault, someone had said, "So one thing didn't go your way. Have you noticed that your life is better than that of most of the heroes you think have happy endings? How happy you are is entirely up to you," it would have killed 4B, but it would have been a lot more tolerable. Or if instead of groveling when Regina was whining about nobody ever having her back Emma had mentioned getting herself stuck in the Enchanted Forest because she saved Regina from the wraith, right after Regina tried to murder her. But the way the writing around Regina works now, it not only makes me dislike Regina, it makes me dislike the other characters.

[Katherine]

I used to find Regina watchable but that's quickly changing as I go through my season four rewatch.  I don't know if it's the writing or if part of it has to do with acting choices, but something about the character's portrayal seems really off to me.  I also find Zelena completely unwatchable, for the reasons mentioned above.

 

I'm just rewatching the scene where Regina apologizes to Marco.  There are some really good things about it, like Marco being allowed to point out that maybe Regina doesn't deserve a happy ending after having stolen everyone else's.  Plus, any time Regina apologizes, that's definitely progress.  But this quote from Regina during her apology pretty much sums up why I don't like the way her redemption arc has been handled:

 

"I was out of line.  It's just every time I seem to make progress towards my happy ending, I hit another dead end.  But I know I'll never find it if I revert to my old ways.  I'm sorry."

 

To me, Regina's redemption has been more about finding her happiness than actually empathizing with her victims and feeling remorse for the pain she's caused them.  It seems like the writers can't tell the difference between the two, but there's a big difference in my mind.  Heroes aren't heroes because they're being good for the sake of getting a happy ending; they're heroes because they're willing to make sacrifices for the sake of doing what's right.

[KingOfHearts]

 

To me, Regina's redemption has been more about finding her happiness than actually empathizing with her victims and feeling remorse for the pain she's caused them.  It seems like the writers can't tell the difference between the two, but there's a big difference in my mind.  Heroes aren't heroes because they're being good for the sake of getting a happy ending; they're heroes because they're willing to make sacrifices for the sake of doing what's right.

You hit the nail on the head. That's the problem with Regina's redemption in a nutshell. You can't both be selfish and a hero - it's contradictory. Villains are villains because they care only about their own happiness and they'll do whatever it takes to maintain it, even if it impedes on others'. The reason Regina always feels depressed is because she's still focused on her own happiness, only this time she can't just rip someone's heart out to get what she wants. The lack of empathy is what keeps her from being likable by viewers because it's alienating.

Edited September 28, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

To me, Regina's redemption has been more about finding her happiness than actually empathizing with her victims and feeling remorse for the pain she's caused them.

I was thinking about this while rewatching "Poor Unfortunate Soul." There's been so much talk on the show about how hard Regina has supposedly worked for her redemption, but all she's really done is stop being evil. We've yet to see any real sign that she feels ashamed of anything she once did. She's never tried to set right anything she did in the past. I'd think that if she were actually working hard to change, she'd be returning hearts from her vault, or finding good things she could do for people she'd wronged if she couldn't undo what she'd done. She certainly wouldn't be mayor, since she usurped Snow's position in the kingdom as one of her bad deeds. She should cede that role, or at least attempt to. Instead, she doesn't even seem to feel ashamed when her past comes up. She just gets irritated that anyone dare mention she was less than perfect.

[Rumsy4]

but all she's really done is stop being evil.

 

And even that is not consistent. She keeps backsliding (enslaving Sidney, taking Lilly's blood, etc.). The occasional step-back is probably inevitable, but everyone only acknowledges her so called "heroic" acts. Which anyone else would call behaving like a decent human being. And half the time, the mess is of her own making. That's what bothers me about Regina's redemption arc. They writers show one thing by the way Regina acts, but the dialogues plays out as though Regina is the biggest victim ever to have worked so hard for her deserved happy ending. I wouldn't even mind her mean spirited jibes disguised as snark, if the others were allowed to call her out on it. I also hate the fact that her victims are always groveling at her or singing her praises. 

Edited September 28, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Mathius]

You can't both be selfish and a hero - it's contradictory. 

Woah, you may wanna word that better.  That's sounding dangerously close to the morality the show preaches, where you can only be a hero if you're flawless and otherwise you're as bad as the villains.  Heroes can be selfish.  Emma, Snow, Charming, Henry, Hook, Belle...all of them have been selfish at some point or other. That doesn't make them not heroes. It's being a consistently selfish person in everything you do, like Regina is, that makes one not a hero.

 

And even that is not consistent. She keeps backsliding (enslaving Sidney, taking Lilly's blood, etc.).

And taking Belle's heart..which went completely unaddressed in 5x01 despite Belle being in the same vicinity as Regina the whole way through. Regina just never suffers consequences for any of her backslides, and it's ridiculous. 

Edited September 29, 2015 by Mathius

[Katherine]

I watched the premiere with my friend, who's a casual viewer. I think he was surprised by how annoyed I got with some of the Regina stuff. I told him from the beginning that I wasn't a fan of Regina, and while he actually agreed and said that he didn't particularly like her, he also said that he did feel sorry for her. I then went on to point out some of the reasons I don't find her remotely sympathetic, most of which he, as a casual viewer, hadn't considered. It always surprises me that Regina is so popular and that a lot of fans do actually see her as a victim (and a hero), but I guess it makes sense. The writers are constantly telling us (though not necessarily showing us) that she's a victim, so of course a lot of viewers take that at face value. Most of Regina's worst crimes occurred in the first couple of seasons, so they aren't fresh in the minds of viewers.

 

What I still don't understand, though, is how some fans will actually defend not only "reformed" Regina, but some of her past crimes as well, as though she were somehow justified in them. But I guess this is true of fans of other characters, too. One time on Twitter, I made a comment about Rumple and Milah's relationship, referring to Milah as Rumple's victim, and someone told me that she deserved to be murdered by Rumple, since she abandoned her family. That's the kind of fan response that I don't understand. Hook is my favorite character and I'm completely biased in his favor, but I would never defend him hitting Belle, for instance. I'm getting off-topic now; I just find it really interesting that there's such a trend toward not only rooting for the bad guys' redemption, but also defending/justifying their actions.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Katherine

[Camera One]

I agree with the casual viewer syndrome and Regina.  The friend I watch every episode with (marathon-style, later in season) likes Regina and went awww when she joined the Charmings for family dinners.  She remembers very little of what happened in previous seasons, so she just goes by the cues the writers provide.  So she is generally sympathetic of Regina while she thinks Snow is stupid and useless, since that's how the character has been portrayed lately.  It shows that how the writers present the characters have a large impact on casual viewers and their perceptions.

 

You raise an excellent point how the opposite situation occurs with hardcore defenders of Regina, Hook, etc. who have encyclopedic knowledge of past events and yet excuses their behavior to the ends of the Earth, though that's more a topic for the fandom thread.

[Shanna Marie]

Heroes can be selfish.  Emma, Snow, Charming, Henry, Hook, Belle...all of them have been selfish at some point or other. That doesn't make them not heroes. It's being a consistently selfish person in everything you do, like Regina is, that makes one not a hero.

I think the key is that not everything a hero does is necessarily "heroic," even if it's a good deed. They've made the term "hero" almost meaningless through overuse and by making it the equivalent of "not a villain," but to me it's more of a retrospective thing, looking back at the sum total of someone's life, or at least coming in the aftermath. You may do a few heroic things, but that doesn't make you a hero, in general.

 

The problem with Regina is that she got called a hero the moment she stopped doing something evil, when she gave in to Henry's urging not to do the spell that would kill anyone coming through the well. And then she got called a hero again for her willingness to sacrifice to stop the failsafe. But not doing the spell that was likely to kill Emma and Snow and that she started doing because she wanted Henry to herself isn't heroic. It's the bare minimum of being decent. With the failsafe, she didn't do that because she had a change of heart but because she got caught in it. As I recall, she didn't say anything about it and didn't even seem to have changed her plans until Hook warned them that Greg and Tamara were activating it. Even after Regina's plans were revealed, she didn't say it was wrong of her to have planned that in the first place. She tried to justify herself. If she hadn't been trapped, she probably would have gone through with it. That, to me, doesn't earn the "hero" label.

 

Then there's the expecting some kind of cosmic reward for doing the right thing. In the Bible, there's a lot of stuff about how if you seek or get rewards or credit for your good deeds on earth, you don't necessarily get credit for them in heaven, and I think that concept applies here. If you're doing good deeds because you want to be seen as a hero, it diminishes your hero points, or if you're doing them just because you want a better outcome for yourself. There's a fine line between wanting to do the right thing because it's the right thing and you've learned that doing the right thing will make you happier in the long term, and wanting to do the right thing because you think that will guarantee you the happy ending you've been seeking your whole life. Regina definitely seems to be the latter, with her "where is my happy ending, dammit!" attitude.

[mjgchick]

I liked Regina in the premiere. I know the show wants to shove her hero status down our throats but I'm just going to ignore that if we get less whiny Regina. Regina whining about how unfair her life is is so stupid because most of the problems with her life is her fault.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I liked Regina in the premiere. I know the show wants to shove her hero status down our throats but I'm just going to ignore that if we get less whiny Regina. Regina whining about how unfair her life is is so stupid because most of the problems with her life is her fault.

Me too. She was actually working with the team to save Emma and in that capacity she's a strong lead. Even in 3A, when she's allowed to be more of a leader and less a cry baby, I found her to be truer to her base character. If she can be the commander/magic guru with Hook to call her out on wrong decisions, it'll be an interesting 5A.

[Souris]

Regina is officially THE most annoying character on any show I've ever watched. That includes Scrappy Doo, Nellie Olsen, Piz & Janice from Friends. Combined.

[Dianthus]

So there's the scene in Spaceballs where the star destroyer is going past, and it keeps on going and going...It's funny at first, and then it's annoying, and then it's kinda funny again. I hope someday to reach that point with the absurdity that is Woegina.

[Shanna Marie]

So, now that we're a couple of episodes into the Dark Emma arc, I found myself wondering why, exactly, Emma had to "save" Regina from the Darkness. Why would it have been worse for Regina to be the Dark One? Is it that Emma had extra ability to hold it, where Regina wouldn't? Was it a lack of faith in Regina to be able to handle it? Because Regina as the Dark One might have made for an interesting arc. They could still have played woobie with her, because poor Regina isn't in control and can't be blamed, and we all must work together to rescue her, but at the same time, they could have written Regina the way they like to write her and still have it make sense and make it not be her fault. She could have been full-on sassy and snarky, even while she was in the "gray" phase like Emma is now in Camelot. We could have seen her struggling with Darkness. She's supposed to be good now, so she shouldn't have instantly gone full evil. And when she did, they could have let her be Evil Queen with no consequences. Restoring her to being "good" might have allowed for a redemption reset to go back and hit the notes they missed.

 

I think I might even have somewhat enjoyed that kind of arc. While it wouldn't have given them the chance to make Regina into the Savior, it would have made Regina the focus of attention, with everyone trying to help her.

[Camera One]

That wouldn't be new and shiny enough.  Dark Regina would probably have killed Merida in the first 10 min of the premiere... forget the 35 min dragout before Friends & Family landed in Camelot.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

Good Regina was saying how easily she could kill everyone in Camelot, Dark One Regina would have wiped everything out in a millisecond enjoying every bit of it. I do think Regina is headed for a big fall. I don't know whether she'll go full on evil, but Super!Saviour!Hero!Regina isn't interesting, so something's gotta give.

[Dianthus]

KAOS Agent, on 05 Oct 2015 - 8:11 PM, said:KAOS Agent, on 05 Oct 2015 - 8:11 PM, said:

Good Regina was saying how easily she could kill everyone in Camelot, Dark One Regina would have wiped everything out in a millisecond enjoying every bit of it. I do think Regina is headed for a big fall. I don't know whether she'll go full on evil, but Super!Saviour!Hero!Regina isn't interesting, so something's gotta give.

Please, oh, please let this be the case!

Edited October 6, 2015 by Dianthus

[YaddaYadda]

Good Regina was saying how easily she could kill everyone in Camelot, Dark One Regina would have wiped everything out in a millisecond enjoying every bit of it. I do think Regina is headed for a big fall. I don't know whether she'll go full on evil, but Super!Saviour!Hero!Regina isn't interesting, so something's gotta give.

It's probably gonna happen after Robin dies. I think he's a goner.

[Curio]

It's probably gonna happen after Robin dies. I think he's a goner.

 

Responding in the Robin thread.

[Mari]

I do think Regina is headed for a big fall. I don't know whether she'll go full on evil, but Super!Saviour!Hero!Regina isn't interesting, so something's gotta give.

I am desperately hoping that' she case. I wish I trusted the writing staff were on the same page we are.

[Shanna Marie]

Super!Saviour!Hero!Regina isn't interesting, so something's gotta give.

The least interesting path hasn't stopped them before. Regina's redemption should have been an interesting, complicated, painful process, but they waved their magic writer wands and declared her redeemed, and thus it was so (except when they want her to be snarky and sassy). Her first real love after Daniel and after she put everything else in her life aside, rejecting all other chances at love, to focus on getting revenge for Daniel should have been a difficult, emotional story, especially when she learned that she was the one responsible for the unhappiness her new love had suffered. But they waved their magic writer wands and gave her an instant, automatic soulmate without bothering to actually develop the relationship. They're so busy giving Regina all the shinies that they don't bother writing interesting material for her. So, yeah, Super!Saviour!Hero!Regina may be dull, but it's exactly the way they write her. Based on their previous writing choices and the way they talk about them, they're utterly oblivious to the fact that they seem to be setting her up for a fall. It also wouldn't be the first time they totally skip the payoff to the thing they've been seemingly setting up all season.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Based on their previous writing choices and the way they talk about them, they're utterly oblivious to the fact that they seem to be setting her up for a fall

Wouldn't it make total sense for Regina to backflip? She has no reason to be "good" except for rewards. If she stopped getting the treats and got kicked in the stomach, there would be nothing to stop her from doing whatever she feels like. She doesn't care about others' feelings, nor does she regret anything she's ever done, so what's the point of being a hero? If she could get everything she ever wanted by being evil and hurting others, she'd do it.

 

Sometimes that doesn't seem so possible because they show her giving affection to certain persons. But then a few scenes later, she's grinning psychotically with an enchanted dagger in her hand. Her status on the side of the angels just isn't possible when you consider human nature and even the writing's history itself. The sad part is that prior to 2B, her redemption was plausible and even organic. I'm not sure what changed the showrunners' minds and caused the nosedive. I thought her stuff in 2A actually made sense and worked well.

Edited October 6, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

 If she could get everything she ever wanted by being evil and hurting others, she'd do it.

Well, yes, that's the character they've written.  She's, as written, mostly a sociopathic narcissist.  

 

The problem is that while they've written a character whose almost completely void of empathy, who is completely self-centered and violent--verbally and physically, they don't seem to recognize that.

 

It's not that the character they've written wouldn't do that, it's that they don't seem to realize that she's that way.    

 

I mean, they pay so little attention to what their character is actually like, that they unintentionally made her a liar in this last episode about something as trivial as being able to dance.  They believed that was plausible.

 

They believe they've written a plausible redemption and moral change for Regina, too.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Mari

[KAOS Agent]

 

Her first real love after Daniel and after she put everything else in her life aside, rejecting all other chances at love, to focus on getting revenge for Daniel should have been a difficult, emotional story, especially when she learned that she was the one responsible for the unhappiness her new love had suffered. But they waved their magic writer wands and gave her an instant, automatic soulmate without bothering to actually develop the relationship.

 

I still remember Adam's after episode interview discussing Outlaw Queen after their first kiss. He said something like we've been waiting over sixty episodes for Regina to open her heart. Isn't it great? My first reaction was that's it? Really? She sees he has the tattoo, he's attractive and now she's in love? Where's the story in that? There was no struggle, no doubt, no nothing. Even outside of the Marian issue, this lack of struggle or build up is why a lot of people are pretty much luke warm to this romance. 

[Dianthus]

Honestly, "luke warm" is coming on a bit strong for me. I don't give a flying f*ck for OQ, and I was totally on Team Marian prior to the Zelarian reveal. OQ sucks ass. Regina isn't healthy enough to have a healthy relationship, and Robin is a non-entity.

[mjgchick]

Regina wouldn't be the Evil Queen though right? Wouldn't she be something else had she taken the darkness? Also I assumed the darkness would have killed Regina like it did the Apprentice and was doing to Rumple because she has a dark heart herself?

Either way the writers really screwed up this character mostly because they want us to feel awful for such a vile character. They had an episode called "The Price" assuming it be Regina who pays the price what do you know it's the woman whose been paying the price since the day she was born ended up paying the price.

Crazy how I can go from liking her in one episode to wanting nothing to do witb her the next. I still want to root for her but the writers really make it hard with the Mary Sueing and having us feel sorry for her while making her victims the bad guys. Look at how she made Snow feel during that dance lesson scene. It's Snows fault her dad didn't dance with the woman who tortured his daughter for so long?

[Camera One]

Look at how she made Snow feel during that dance lesson scene. It's Snows fault her dad didn't dance with the woman who tortured his daughter for so long?

Yeah, that line was really unnecessary and insensitive if you think about it from Snow's perspective.  Her father was murdered by this person, and she has to listen to the murderer complain about her father?  But of course the writers just have Snow standing there and taking it, and A&E have interviews saying how they love the Snow and Regina relationship.  Fine, Regina can lash out to hide her insecurities or whatever, but she could have said something less hurtful and less inappropriate.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

Going off from a discussion in the spoiler thread. This whole green baby storyline is really puzzling to me. I don't understand why Regina getting to parent three biologically unrelated children is part of her redemption arc. Regina is Henry's adoptive mother. She also a stand-in step-mother for Roland. And now, she is planning to raise her sister's child as well. And lbr, Zelena is probably going to die this season (for real) after giving birth to her baby. Regina and Robin will end up raising that child, and it will join Baby Snowflake in off-screenville. Regina may also end up being cured of her infertility so she can have a biological child with Robin. 

 

Now, this might be a controversial statement, but I don't think Robin automatically gets the parental rights to Zelena's child. What Zelena did to Robin was dreadful, and she herself is too unstable to be a good parent. But that doesn't mean Regina is going to make a wonderful mother for her sister's child. Going by Henry, green baby will probably be roped into Operation Mongoose #32 when he/she is 10 to find Regina's Latest Version of Happy Ending. 

Edited October 9, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

Now, this might be a controversial statement, but I don't think Robin automatically gets the parental rights to Zelena's child. What Zelena did to Robin was dreadful, and she herself is too unstable to be a good parent. But that doesn't mean Regina is going to make a wonderful mother for her sister's child.

Robin might have some say in the matter, but Regina really shouldn't have anything to do with the decision. She doesn't get to decide what happens to Zelena's child. If Robin chooses to get some kind of custody of his child he can choose to let Regina serve as a stepparent, but Regina has no grounds whatsoever to make any decisions about that child.

 

It really is rather gross that they're setting her up to be a potential adoptive/step mother to three different children whose biological mothers she's tried to kill. That's so warped.