Regina, the Evil Queen: The Only Happy Ending Will Be Hers

[Wandering1]

No one knows since it didn't happen. The point I made earlier was that Emma wasn't needed to break the curse. That was made clear in S3B.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Wandering1

[MDKNIGHT]

You know what's funny?  Fairytale villains really did have rediculous reasons for thier evil but then again they weren't redeemed either.  Classic Evil Queen was just jealous of Snow's beauty and Maleficient just wasn't invited to a christening, so she puts a magical hit on a baby to take place on her 16th birthday.  This is where the show went wrong.  They had the moronic reason for doing evil with Regina's blaming of a 10 year old BUT wanting to have the more modern redemption track that is usually an option with a layered, complex and multifaceted villain.  The writers of the Malificent movie did it right in that they gave Malificent a good reason for going evil.   I think we wouldn't have such a big problem with Regina if they'd revealed a better reason for her going nuts AND made it clear she was suffering from some sort of PTSD.  Then her slowly getting redeemed would have been believable. 

 

You know who they believeably moved from being really evil and murderous to being loyal and a good guy?  Cara Mason on Legend of the Seeker.  She went from innocent child  literally tortured into being a heartless sadistic murderer, back to being the best friend of the main character willing to die for him and those he loved.   And that was cool because the audience did see how she was duped and manipulated and tortured into doing what she did AND you could see how some villager would still hate her for  having killed one of their loved ones but it all made perfect sense. You clearly saw that she was sorry and accepted that the people she apologized to had no reason to forgive her and accepted that.   It is too bad the writers didn't think things through when they wrote season 1 of this show. 

[Rumsy4]

No one knows since it didn't happen. The point I made earlier was that Emma wasn't needed to break the curse. That was made clear in S3B.

Why do you think Zelena's Memory Curse was the same as Regina's Original Recipe Dark Curse? Why did Rumple bother writing-in a True Love clause to break it then?

[Dani-Ellie]

The curse in 3B was created under different circumstances. Regina destroyed the scroll with the original curse at the end of 3A. Emma being the savior was a "safety valve" written into the original curse by Rumple placing a drop of the True Love magic he'd created with strands of Snow's and Charming's hair on the parchment of the original scroll.

 

Dark Curse 1.0 could only be broken by Emma because that was the way Rumple created it. That is fact, and that is what was said all throughout the first season. Dark Curse 2.0 didn't have all the trappings of Dark Curse 1.0, because it was created differently. The scroll that made Emma the savior was destroyed, so Emma didn't have to break Dark Curse 2.0, but that doesn't retroactively mean she wasn't needed to break Dark Curse 1.0. She was, and she did.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Wandering1]

The curse in 3B was created under different circumstances. Regina destroyed the scroll with the original curse at the end of 3A. Emma being the savior was a "safety valve" written into the original curse by Rumple placing a drop of the True Love magic he'd created with strands of Snow's and Charming's hair on the parchment of the original scroll.

 

Dark Curse 1.0 could only be broken by Emma because that was the way Rumple created it. That is fact, and that is what was said all throughout the first season. Dark Curse 2.0 didn't have all the trappings of Dark Curse 1.0, because it was created differently. The scroll that made Emma the savior was destroyed, so Emma didn't have to break Dark Curse 2.0, but that doesn't retroactively mean she wasn't needed to break Dark Curse 1.0. She was, and she did.

I just want to make sure I understand your point. Your saying Emma was the only person that could break the first curse? No matter what the circumstances where? And that Rumple had no control in choosing who broke his curse?

Edited July 2, 2014 by Wandering1

[Rumsy4]

Well yes--Emma was the only one who could break Dark Curse 1. Rumple wrote her in as the savior. Dark Curse 2 did not need breaking. Regina's True Love's kiss only broke Zelena's Memory Curse.

[Dani-Ellie]

Yes. The way the first curse was written, only Emma could have broken it. Rumple worked her in as the savior because she was the product of True Love.

 

ETA: Jinx, Rumsy4! ;)

Edited July 2, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Wandering1]

Yes. The way the first curse was written, only Emma could have broken it. Rumple worked her in as the savior because she was the product of True Love.

 

ETA: Jinx, Rumsy4! ;)

So if Zelena had cast the curse like Rumple originally wanted they would have been cursed forever? Why would Rumple agree to that when the whole point of the curse was to get him to his son's land?

Edited July 2, 2014 by Wandering1

[Camera One]

So if Zelena had cast the curse like Rumple originally wanted they would have been curse forever? Why would Rumple agree that when the whole point of the curse was to get him to his son's land?

 

It had nothing to do with whether Zelena or Regina cast the Curse.  Rumple was using them to cast the Curse.  But Rumple also needed someone to break the Curse, and only the product of True Love could do that.  That was why he wrote Emma into the first Curse.  Rumple used Emma's name to allow him to regain his memories in Storybrooke (before that, he also had the Cursed personality).  After the Curse was broken by Emma (a requirement of the first Curse), he could then bring magic back and go to find Neal.  It's so hard to remember all the little details, so that's why summer is a great time to rewatch some of the old episodes in Season 1 and 2 which explained all this.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

Taking further discussion about the Curse to the All Season's Thread. 

[Wandering1]

It had nothing to do with whether Zelena or Regina cast the Curse.  Rumple was using them to cast the Curse.  But Rumple also needed someone to break the Curse, and only the product of True Love could do that.  That was why he wrote Emma into the first Curse.  Rumple used Emma's name to allow him to regain his memories in Storybrooke (before that, he also had the Cursed personality).  After the Curse was broken by Emma (a requirement of the first Curse), he could then bring magic back and go to find Neal.  It's so hard to remember all the little details, so that's why summer is a great time to rewatch some of the old episodes in Season 1 and 2 which explained all this.

And how exactly is Emma, who isn't born when Zelena wants to cast the curse, going to break it?

[Rumsy4]

 

And how exactly is Emma, who isn't born when Zelena wants to cast the curse, going to break it?

 

Responding in the All Season's Thread. 

[KAOS Agent]

I don't understand why there is an argument about canon here. Emma was the Saviour. It was built in by Rumpel when he created the curse. When Regina learned that, she set out to kill the baby. Canon fact. Here is the exact dialogue:

 

"A Land Without Magic"

Mr. Gold: Of course. True love, Miss Swan—the only magic strong enough to transcend realms and break any curse. Luckily for you, I happen to have bottled some.
Regina: You did?
Mr. Gold: Oh yes. From strands of your parents' hair, I made the most powerful potion in all the realms. So powerful, that when I created the Dark Curse, I placed a single drop on the parchment. Just a little safety valve.
Emma: That's why I'm the savior, that's why I can break the curse.

Mr. Gold: Now you're getting it.

 

From "Queen of Hearts"

Emma: You created the curse, Gold. You made me the saviour. So everything I’ve ever done… It’s exactly what you wanted me to do.

Mr. Gold: I created the curse, dearie, but I didn’t make you. I merely took advantage of what you are – the product of true love. That’s why you’re powerful. 

 

From "Save Henry"

Rumplestiltskin: And yet, here you are. Feeling the need to gloat. Something's missing, isn't it, dearie?
Evil Queen: Not at all. I have everything I want. Nothing can stop me now.
Rumplestiltskin: (Giggles hysterically) Not quite.
Evil Queen: What does that mean?
Rumplestiltskin: The savior, the child of Snow White and Prince Charming. (The Evil Queen scoffs.)
Rumplestiltskin: She can stop you. She can break the curse.
Evil Queen: Well, looks like getting rid of a baby made my to-do list.

[Wandering1]

There is a discussion because in S3, Rumple had no problem letting Zelena cast the curse (also cannon), and in that case Emma would not be the savior. So the idea that Emma was the "only one" that could break the curse is false.

 

And as you pointed out, "It was built in by Rumpel", so obviously Rumple could have chosen someone else to break his curse.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Wandering1

[Dani-Ellie]

Moving my response to All Seasons.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[KingOfHearts]

 

And I still don't get why Snow isn't yet referred to as queen.

Regina is technically still queen, I think. After Leopold was killed, and before Regina went publicly evil queen, the question was never raised on whether Snow was queen now. In New York Serenade, they claim Regina usurped it, but Regina comes back and says she married into it. Snow getting the throne through succession never came up in the show, so I'm going to guess Regina still has it legally.

Edited July 2, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Serena]

Regina is technically still queen, I think. After Leopold was killed, and before Regina went publicly evil queen, the question was never raised on whether Snow was queen now. In New York Serenade, they claim Regina usurped it, but Regina comes back and says she married into it. Snow getting the throne through succession never came up in the show, so I'm going to guess Regina still has it legally.

Regina is still queen, she's just dowager queen. Even when Leopold was alive, she was never a ruling queen, she was queen consort. She was Anne Boleyn, not Elizabeth I (since we were talking about Henry VIII earlier!). When Leopold died, depending on the rules/Snow's age, she would either have been dowager queen or queen (step)mother, or queen regent (like Cersei Lannister) until Snow came of age.

[KingOfHearts]

The legal system is obviously very different in the Enchanted Forest from reality. The writers really haven't laid out anything in bold print about it. I don't even know if Snow was old enough to be crowned when Leopold died. It's doubtful Regina just played by the books on it, though.

[Shanna Marie]

Regina is technically still queen, I think. After Leopold was killed, and before Regina went publicly evil queen, the question was never raised on whether Snow was queen now. In New York Serenade, they claim Regina usurped it, but Regina comes back and says she married into it.

But that's not how it works. She would still have the title of queen as the consort of the late king (assuming she wasn't brought to justice and stripped of all titles for being the one to murder the king), but she wouldn't be the actual ruling queen. Snow should have become the queen if Regina hadn't usurped and outlawed/exiled her. It was like when King George died, his daughter Elizabeth became queen and her mother became the queen mother. Note that although the Queen Mother was also Elizabeth, she wasn't Elizabeth II because she wasn't the actual ruling queen. Regina even commented in the finale about Snow being "stupid" enough to lose her palace. Regina was kind of acting like a queen mother in the lost year, but they're still not calling Snow queen. Which kind of bugs me because that should be part of Regina's reformation -- stepping down from the things she took unjustly. There's something wrong with the supposedly reformed villains continuing to live better lives and be in authority over their former victims. Nothing has really changed about Regina's life since she supposedly stopped being evil.

[KingOfHearts]

But that's not how it works.

 

Again, those are real life rules - not the Enchanted Forest's. The problem is the lack of details from the writers. We don't know the legal system of the Enchanted Forest. The queen might get the full throne by default for all we know. It could go either way, we just don't know. I'm only guessing by what the show has given us.

 

Regina basically usurped the throne, whether she could have attained it legally or not. She claimed it through conquest. My point is she is still the current reigning queen. 

Edited July 2, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Serena]

Regina basically usurped the throne, whether she could have attained it legally or by her own conquest. My point, she is still the current reigning queen. 

She's not, even if we assume, for the sake of the argument, that she ever was legally; Snow and Charming took her throne in S2 and exiled her. Snow should have had the title by birthright, but even if she had been a random and not the King's daughter, she would have won by title by right of conquest.

Regina was in exile when she cast the curse, and when everyone got back to the EF I guess Snow and Charming 'pardoned' her and she wasn't exiled anymore, but she still had lost the title.

[KingOfHearts]

She's not, even if we assume, for the sake of the argument, that she ever was legally; Snow and Charming took her throne in S2 and exiled her. 

 

She is still reigning as Queen during the Missing Year, though, along with Snowing.

 

(Any real world legality got thrown out the window by that point.)

Edited July 2, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Serena]

She is still reigning as Queen during the Missing Year, though, along with Snowing.

 

(Any real world legality got thrown out the window by that point.)

I don't think we have any actual instance of her reigning in the missing year. She's there with Snowing, and it's all a bunch of Snow being like "we're doing this, I don't care if you don't like it!" and Regina going along. She doesn't command any guards or give any orders, as far as I remember.

[stealinghome]

Yeah, to me in the Missing Year it seemed like Charming and Snow were King and Queen, and Regina was acting more like a Dowager Queen. She was a trusted adviser (and she's always going to be imperious), but I definitely got the sense that Charming and Snow were calling the shots.

[Shanna Marie]

Any real world legality got thrown out the window by that point.

Any real world legality and she'd be in the dungeon, at the very least, for conspiring to murder the last king. Even if they're going with the idea of an absolute monarch who has every right to slaughter all of her people if she wants to, regicide is generally frowned upon. Once you've killed a king, you either hold the throne, or you die.

[KingOfHearts]

With all the usurping, conquest, kingdom merging, and the changing of hands outside of any legality, I think the ruler is who you make it. It's a point the writers have left purposely ambiguous. They never mentioned, during the Missing Year, the words "king" or "queen" in regards to who was ruling. Adam and Eddie have thrown specifics, morals and rules under the bus so many times intentionally, that absolutely everything on the show is up to interpretation. They omit important information on the show (like how magic works) so they don't have to play by any rule book.

 

If Regina is your cup of tea, you can believe she's the queen if you want. If you want Snow and Charming to be victorious, you can believe that too. Neither is completely negated - because there is no legal system presented to the audience to speak of. 

 

I may believe Regina is queen, but that's just my opinion. Sorry if I stated it like a fact, because nothing is set in stone on this show. :)

Edited July 2, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Aliasscape]

Again, those are real life rules - not the Enchanted Forest's. The problem is the lack of details from the writers. We don't know the legal system of the Enchanted Forest. The queen might get the full throne by default for all we know. It could go either way, we just don't know. I'm only guessing by what the show has given us.

 

Regina basically usurped the throne, whether she could have attained it legally or not. She claimed it through conquest. My point is she is still the current reigning queen. 

Regina like King George (Once's, not Englands) both lost their thrones via conquest as well. She was going to be executed, and then they exiled her instead. In my opinion, that's a strong part of the motivation of WHY Regina enacted the curse to begin with and why she was whining and crying in her exiled castle to her father about how she was nothing now, how all she'd worked for and built was gone, how her power was going to disappear. (1x02) 

 

If Regina had still been ruling Leopold's kingdom, then she wouldn't have had as strong a motive to enact the curse (something which gave her absolute power). She'd still have had plenty of power so if you look at her as still being the ruling queen after her exile, why was she so concerned that she was losing all she'd built/worked for and her power?

[Mari]

Any real world legality and she'd be in the dungeon, at the very least, for conspiring to murder the last king. Even if they're going with the idea of an absolute monarch who has every right to slaughter all of her people if she wants to, regicide is generally frowned upon. Once you've killed a king, you either hold the throne, or you die.

 

 

 

Regina like King George (Once's, not Englands) both lost their thrones via conquest as well. She was going to be executed, and then they exiled her instead. In my opinion, that's a strong part of the motivation of WHY Regina enacted the curse to begin with and why she was whining and crying in her exiled castle to her father about how she was nothing now, how all she'd worked for and built was gone, how her power was going to disappear. (1x02) 

 

If Regina had still been ruling Leopold's kingdom, then she wouldn't have had as strong a motive to enact the curse (something which gave her absolute power). She'd still have had plenty of power so if you look at her as still being the ruling queen after her exile, why was she so concerned that she was losing all she'd built/worked for and her power?

 

I actually think they left  it unstated and a little ambiguous on purpose.  It allows them to go back and play with the timeline and claim that's how it was all along. 

 

But, from what we've been told so far--precurse, it looked like David and Snow had retaken Snow's kingdom.  I had assumed that their official, fancy wedding was a wedding/coronation combo, but I'm less sure of that since David is apparently still calling himself a prince in 3B. (Or is he still calling himself a prince because he's not actually the king, but a prince-consort?)

 

Regina seemed to be completely deposed, but then Snow had an overwhelming attack of conscience, and Regina regained at least some of her previous power.

 

They left it a little foggy in the mystery year, but in the fairybacks we saw, Snow seemed to be more in charge than Regina.  However, that could've been because Regina was having a Henry meltdown and wasn't up to ruling.

 

However, the "usurped from Snow" conversation David and Regina had soon after they got back--where they talking about the kingdom, or the castle?  Because I had interpreted the conversation as about the castle, since they were talking about where they were going to live now that they were back in the Enchanted Forest.

 

It wouldn't matter if Regina was the Queen Mother, or the actual Queen.  As long as she was considered a member of the family--and Snow wasn't having anything else, even if legally it should've been otherwise--a nondungeoned Regina would have right of household.  That particular castle could easily have been the one that was designated Regina's home if something should happen to Leopold, unless the Enchanted Forest  rules are different than ours, and Regina was still officially and legally the in-charge queen.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Mari

[Camera One]

They left it a little foggy in the mystery year, but in the fairybacks we saw, Snow seemed to be more in charge than Regina.

 

Snow and Charming were the rulers and Regina was that creepy advisor you have on staff to scare the people into submission.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

Regina is Rasputin. I like it.

 

If you consider that the entire kingdom had been ripped from their homes and had their identities stolen by the Evil Queen, I'm not sure you wouldn't have a peasant revolt if Regina was placed in power again. These people have been living in a democratic society, know the history of the "real world" and understand quite well how to form a government of the people, one where they're not stuck suffering at the whims of some woman who murders an entire village because she's pissed at something a child did ten years ago. John Q Public couldn't care less that Regina loves her son. They care that about a week before the curse was reversed, Regina was planning to kill them all with the fail safe diamond. Down with Regina! says the peasantry.

[ShadowFacts]

Regina is Rasputin. I like it.

 

If you consider that the entire kingdom had been ripped from their homes and had their identities stolen by the Evil Queen, I'm not sure you wouldn't have a peasant revolt if Regina was placed in power again. These people have been living in a democratic society, know the history of the "real world" and understand quite well how to form a government of the people, one where they're not stuck suffering at the whims of some woman who murders an entire village because she's pissed at something a child did ten years ago. John Q Public couldn't care less that Regina loves her son. They care that about a week before the curse was reversed, Regina was planning to kill them all with the fail safe diamond. Down with Regina! says the peasantry.

 

One hopes.  And since there hasn't been an uprising to date, just the odd snarky comment or some yelling at a town meeting, there needs to be a rabble rouser from the outside, or someone in the peasantry who we haven't seen before.  Maybe this will be part of the Frozen package.  But whatever the source, it has been my fondest wish that redemption or no, Regina is tossed out on her ass. I guess I don't have a very resilient heart where Rasputin, I mean Regina, is concerned.

[FavFable]

I don't see how Regina would be placed in power again unless the town voted her back as Mayor. Their choice.

 

Love Regina's season 3 redemption story and I can't wait to see it continue in Season 4.

[KingOfHearts]

Honestly, the townspeople couldn't care less who's mayor. They only take orders from Snow and Charming, so Regina can't just come in and pull rank on them. The only reason they would submit to her at all is because they fear her. As long as Regina has magic, she'll be in power to some degree. She's a very intimidating person.

 

Sane Regina, in my personal opinion, would make a great ruler or mayor. Snow just isn't leader material, and Charming is more of a fighter than a politician. When Regina is at her best, she gets crap done better than anyone else.

Edited July 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Serena]

Related to that, though, do we really even know Regina wants to rule a (semi)-democratic town where she'd be accountable for everything she does? Would she have the patience to go to town meetings and listen to the town explain that their neighbour has the music on too loud? Would she be able to come up with a solution that didn't involve threats or murder?

 

Though I agree that Snow would be awful at it too. She would probably put them both in timeout.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Serena

[stealinghome]

I actually think that, of all people, Charming and Regina would make the best "running the place" duo. Regina would handle the paperwork side, David would handle the "talking to people without wanting to strangle them but also not putting up with any BS" side, and neither of them would be half as dumb as Snow.

Snow should be, like, the representative they send to stuff to smile and be likable. Keep her in the public eye, but don't ask her to make any decisions.

[Rumsy4]

Regina was horrible as a Mayor--intimidating and self-serving. I think Storybrooke needs to hold elections and vote for the best candidate. There are so many ex-royals in Storybrooke who might suit the role.

[Shanna Marie]

Picking up a discussion from "The Stable Boy" thread that gets into longer-term issues:

 

I think it would have made Snow's guilt more understandable, as well as part of Regina's anger. Snow would have still just been a child who just did something selfish like every child does, and who deserved nothing of what Regina put her through, but at the same time Regina being angry at her would have been more justified because she did try to break her and Daniel up on purpose.

That's why I'm rather baffled by this episode. If they had wanted to go the route of "there are two sides to every story, and there's no such thing as black or white, only shades of gray," they had plenty of opportunities to write it that way. They could have had Snow break up Regina and Daniel on purpose for selfish reasons. They could have had Regina not fall for her mother's manipulation so that it looked like Snow was ridiculously naive to fall for it. Instead, they seemed to have gone out of their way to dot every i and cross every t to make it 100 percent clear that it was absolutely insane to blame Snow for Daniel's death and for ruining Regina's life. And yet that's not the way it seems to have been dealt with since then.

 

Snow/Mary Margaret has apologized multiple times and she seems to be carrying the blame for this. I don't think anyone has ever told her that it wasn't her fault and that she shouldn't blame herself. In fact, the show seems to have reinforced this guilt by making Eva just as "bad" and establishing a pattern of the women from Snow's family ruining the lives of the women in Regina's family by telling secrets. Regina has been "redeemed" without ever acknowledging that she blamed the wrong person or overreacted. There was that conversation in which she grudgingly admitted to Mary Margaret that things were "complicated" about Mary Margaret having killed Cora, since Cora murdered her mother, with no mention whatsoever that Cora was the one who manipulated Snow, Cora was the one who set up the situation in the first place, and Cora killed Daniel -- that Cora, and not Snow, was to blame for ruining Regina's life (or at least setting in motion the things that Regina reacted to in such a way that it ruined her life).

 

So, the "origin story" for all this was written as though to leave no doubt whatsoever about Snow's guilt, but just about every episode since then has treated the situation as though it's one of those "two sides to every story, evil isn't born, it's made, there's no black or white, just shades of gray" thing where Regina has a reason to hate Snow and has no need to apologize for the actions she took against her.

[FavFable]

Honestly, the townspeople couldn't care less who's mayor. They only take orders from Snow and Charming, so Regina can't just come in and pull rank on them. The only reason they would submit to her at all is because they fear her. As long as Regina has magic, she'll be in power to some degree. She's a very intimidating person.

 

Sane Regina, in my personal opinion, would make a great ruler or mayor. Snow just isn't leader material, and Charming is more of a fighter than a politician. When Regina is at her best, she gets crap done better than anyone else.

I agree with you about Sane Regina being a good mayor. I don't think she will be interested in continuing as mayor. Especially if she gets Robin back.

[Rockybeach]

I don't see how Regina would be placed in power again unless the town voted her back as Mayor. Their choice.

 

Love Regina's season 3 redemption story and I can't wait to see it continue in Season 4.

I like the redemption storyline too. When do you think it started? When she apologized to Henry in season 2?

[stealinghome]

Instead, they seemed to have gone out of their way to dot every i and cross every t to make it 100 percent clear that it was absolutely insane to blame Snow for Daniel's death and for ruining Regina's life.

I think they had to do this, though, because that's the tragedy of Snow and Regina's relationship. (And on some level, the relationship that could have been but didn't really is tragic for both of them.) Because if Snow had broken Regina and Daniel up at all selfishly, it would mean that Regina was fundamentally right about what happened. And while obviously Regina's "revenge" would still be massively, ridiculously wrong and disproportionate, it wouldn't be rooted in a fundamental misunderstanding and misdirected rage. And insofar as I see Regina as a tragic character (as opposed to a crazy mass murderer--but it's clear Adam and Eddie think she's the Tragicest Hero of All Time), I think that's where the tragedy comes in. That Regina built this whole grudge, this whole psychological reality, her life on something that's not true. That she ruined her own life for something that's just a figment of her imagination.

 

(Also, the writers of course had to start the lifelong pattern of kicking Snow in the teeth whenever she tries to do something good.)

 

With that said, however, I do think that the writers have let Regina's point of view overwhelm the show over the last two seasons (SHOCKING, I know). But given that the writers still like to pretend that putting Cora down was some TERRIBLE AWFUL DEED instead of a public service, I have no hope of balance being restored anytime soon. Though I would pay dearly for Emma or Charming, just once, to look at Regina and say "Did Snow actually kill Daniel?" and for Regina to have to be like "......" and them to say "Oh, you mean your mother--the same mother that you ALLIED WITH and with whom you TRIED TO KILL US--did that? Yeah, then shut the fuck up about it already, because a) Snow didn't kill Daniel and b) if you allied with Cora after seeing her again for a hot 10 minutes, you CLEARLY didn't love Daniel THAT MUCH anyway."

Edited July 5, 2014 by stealinghome

[Serena]

I think they had to do this, though, because that's the tragedy of Snow and Regina's relationship. (And on some level, the relationship that could have been but didn't really is tragic for both of them.) Because if Snow had broken Regina and Daniel up at all selfishly, it would mean that Regina was fundamentally right about what happened. And while obviously Regina's "revenge" would still be massively, ridiculously wrong and disproportionate, it wouldn't be rooted in a fundamental misunderstanding and misdirected rage. And insofar as I see Regina as a tragic character (as opposed to a crazy mass murderer--but it's clear Adam and Eddie think she's the Tragicest Hero of All Time), I think that's where the tragedy comes in. That Regina built this whole grudge, this whole psychological reality, her life on something that's not true. That she ruined her own life for something that's just a figment of her imagination.

 

(Also, the writers of course had to start the lifelong pattern of kicking Snow in the teeth whenever she tries to do something good.)

 

With that said, however, I do think that the writers have let Regina's point of view overwhelm the show over the last two seasons (SHOCKING, I know). But given that the writers still like to pretend that putting Cora down was some TERRIBLE AWFUL DEED instead of a public service, I have no hope of balance being restored anytime soon. Though I would pay dearly for Emma or Charming, just once, to look at Regina and say "Did Snow actually kill Daniel?" and for Regina to have to be like "......" and them to say "Oh, you mean your mother--the same mother that you ALLIED WITH and with whom you TRIED TO KILL US--did that? Yeah, then shut the fuck up about it already, because a) Snow didn't kill Daniel and b) if you allied with Cora after seeing her again for a hot 10 minutes, you CLEARLY didn't love Daniel THAT MUCH anyway."

Yeah, I think they started with option #1 - Regina builds this massive revenge scheme over something that happened only in her head - and then changed their mind and decided that it was instead #2 - Regina was right to be pissed at Snow because she ruined her life, even though she overreacted a tiny bit. So since we're now stuck with #2, it would have made more sense if Snow had done it on purpose.

[FavFable]

I like the redemption storyline too. When do you think it started? When she apologized to Henry in season 2?

I think it started in season 2 and continued when she saved Snow and Emma at the well. I think she took several steps back when she sided with Cora. I get why she did it. This was the one person that should have offered her unconditional love and was willing to help her. I think Regina would always give her mother another chance. I really wonder what their relationship would have been like if Cora had kept her heart.

 

I think the actual redemption storyline moved forward at the end of season 2 when Regina was willing to sacrifice her life to save the town. Loved that line "Let me die as Regina."

[ShadowFacts]

 

Though I would pay dearly for Emma or Charming, just once, to look at Regina and say "Did Snow actually kill Daniel?" and for Regina to have to be like "......" and them to say "Oh, you mean your mother--the same mother that you ALLIED WITH and with whom you TRIED TO KILL US--did that? Yeah, then shut the fuck up about it already, because a) Snow didn't kill Daniel and b) if you allied with Cora after seeing her again for a hot 10 minutes, you CLEARLY didn't love Daniel THAT MUCH anyway."

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes, and I want somebody to say the same to Snow.  And have it sink in.

[KingOfHearts]

I saw Regina's kickoff point for her redemption arc in 2x02, when she apologized to Henry and agreed to change. She took several steps back all through S2, but 2x02 was the first episode I saw where she wanted to change.

 

Back on Snow vs Regina, it would have made more sense if Snow took offensive hits toward Regina too. But they couldn't do that because of Snow's iconic innocence, unfortunately. If they wanted Regina to be misunderstood, there were many other ways that could have been accomplished. The fact Regina has absolutely no regret makes her look like a total psychopath. It's apparent the writers don't want to her to be, but they've set it up that way because of their inconsistent writing. Regina's true redemption starts at mending her rivalry with Snow.

 

The writers have an agenda to keep her from true redemption. I'm fully convinced.

Edited July 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FavFable]

I think you might be right about the writers not giving Regina total redemption. I think the things see did in season 3 were true.

As a fan of Regina. I don't need to see the Charming's, who got everything, forgive Regina. I really don't care about them. They got their happy endings. I am much more interested in the characters like Ruby, TInkerbell, and Regina. Characters still searching for some type of happy ending.

Edited July 5, 2014 by FavFable

[Serena]

What have the Charmings got more than Regina? A stable romantic relationship, I guess, but then Regina got to raise her son all his life and the Charmings didn't get to do it. And unlike Regina, who still could have a romantic relationship in the future, they aren't ever getting that back.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Serena

[KingOfHearts]

As a fan of Regina. I don't need to see the Charming's, who got everything, forgive Regina.

 

The Charmings forgave Regina a long time ago, mostly Snow. In order for someone to repent, they need to realize what they did was wrong. Regina hasn't made that step yet. Apologizing to Snow symbolizes she regrets the awful things she's done to her.

 

I'm a fan of Regina too. I really want her redeemed badly.

Edited July 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

This is where I feel like Once would be so helped if ABC would just decide that the show isn't going more than 5 seasons and tell Adam and Eddie this. Then we wouldn't have to love with Regina in this perma-limbo, they could start plotting a steady, coherent redemption arc.

[FavFable]

 

The Charmings forgave Regina a long time ago, mostly Snow. In order for someone to repent, they need to realize what they did was wrong. Regina hasn't made that step yet. Apologizing to Snow symbolizes she regrets the awful things she's done to her.

 

I disagree. She saved Snow twice, more importantly she saved Snow's son. I don't think Regina has to say anything. I think her actions speak louder than words. Look at Rumple. He says all the right things and then completely acts like a jerk. Not only does he look bad, but Belle looks like an idiot for trusting him. I would much rather Regina follow through with the correct behavior, which she has.

 

My hope for Regina going forward is some distance from the Charming's. I doubt it will happen because of Henry, but I think some distance would help her.

Edited July 5, 2014 by FavFable

[Mari]

My hope for Regina going forward is some distance from the Charming's. I doubt it will happen because of Henry, but I think some distance would help her.

What benefit do you think Regina would have from distancing herself from the Charmings?  In what ways do you think it would help her?