The Sopranos - General Discussion

[Kel Varnsen]

21 hours ago, qtpye said:

It was almost like Chase did not want to do a Sopranos movie at all but the network forced him to include characters besides young Tony for the fan appeal.

So, we get these throwaway scenes and wonder "Who the Hell was that supposed to be?"

That's what it feels like. All of the promos were about the origin of Tony Soprano, but that seemed like maybe 15 minutes of the movie. Although even beyond that it seemed like 2 separate movies (a Dickie movie and a Harold movie). Either one would have made an interesting story, but giving each less than half a movie didn't really work.

[millennium]

David Chase has finally revealed Tony Soprano's fate

In the end, the guy in the Members' Only jacket and all the recurring dialogue about how you never hear the bullet that blows your brains out really did add up to something after all. 

I'm happy Chase finally went on record.  Tony was a great character but he got exactly what he had coming.   What truly satisfies me, though, is the thought that Carmela, Meadow and that little shit A.J.  got to see it happen up close and personal.

In some ways, they were worse than Tony.   Tony was a predator.  He knew it, he owned it.  But on some level Carmela, Meadow and A.J. all convinced themselves that even though they enjoyed the financial/lifestyle benefits of Tony's crimes as much -- or perhaps more -- than he did, their hands were unblemished.   Carmela engaged in a delusional balancing act between guilt and her desire for material possessions, acting like a chastened Lady Macbeth in one episode, then twirling around in a new fur coat or flashing diamond jewelry in the next.  Meadow knew early on where her father's source of income came from, but seemed to think that going to law school and doing pro bono work somehow redeemed her (psst, Mead, whose blood paid for that degree?)  A.J., always a poser, played the part of emo conscientious objector to the wealth around him, but in the end he succumbed to it as easily as his mother did.

The idea that Carmela, AJ and Meadow were shown in the most graphic way possible the bloody reality of their existence seems (to me, anyway) to be the true climax of The Sopranos.

Edited November 4, 2021 by millennium

[aghst]

But did Chase have this ending in mind when he wrote it or years later, he gets a do-over, since he has years of reactions from viewers.

[millennium]

8 minutes ago, aghst said:

But did Chase have this ending in mind when he wrote it or years later, he gets a do-over, since he has years of reactions from viewers.

He originally had a different ending in mind, which he discusses, but the final result was the same -- Tony dies.

Tony's fate was actually better than he deserved.   He may have experienced an instant of "this is it" but surely none of the terror and desperation that, say, Adriana endured in her final moments.

[Kel Varnsen]

The thing about Tony being killed though is it kind of makes that whole last season pointless. Like who cares if he doesn't have a therapist any more, or if his daughter told him why she's not going to be a doctor, or that all his closest friends are gone or that Paulie is super annoying or that his business is way down or that he is about to be indicted. None of that matters because he is dead, so what is the point. But if he is still alive all those things become a lot more interesting.

Also there is no way Chase would have said this if Gandolfini was still alive.

 

[MsTree]

7 hours ago, millennium said:

He originally had a different ending in mind, which he discusses, but the final result was the same -- Tony dies.

I'm not so sure about that. IOW, if Jim was still alive, we'd probably be talking about the sequel, rather than the prequel.

But of course Jim is no longer with us, so it makes perfect sense to put an end to Tony once and for all.

[millennium]

19 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

The thing about Tony being killed though is it kind of makes that whole last season pointless. Like who cares if he doesn't have a therapist any more, or if his daughter told him why she's not going to be a doctor, or that all his closest friends are gone or that Paulie is super annoying or that his business is way down or that he is about to be indicted. None of that matters because he is dead, so what is the point. But if he is still alive all those things become a lot more interesting.

Also there is no way Chase would have said this if Gandolfini was still alive.

 

I'm not sure Tony's death makes those things pointless.   Tony was a control freak and as you just pointed out, his control over the important things in his life was rapidly slipping through his fingers.   The loss of his own life could be seen as the final, natural conclusion of that process.

You're probably right that Chase would have stayed quiet if Gandolfini was alive.  He's a businessman and would have wanted to keep his options open.

[qtpye]

21 hours ago, millennium said:

David Chase has finally revealed Tony Soprano's fate

In the end, the guy in the Members' Only jacket and all the recurring dialogue about how you never hear the bullet that blows your brains out really did add up to something after all. 

I'm happy Chase finally went on record.  Tony was a great character but he got exactly what he had coming.   What truly satisfies me, though, is the thought that Carmela, Meadow and that little shit A.J.  got to see it happen up close and personal.

In some ways, they were worse than Tony.   Tony was a predator.  He knew it, he owned it.  But on some level Carmela, Meadow and A.J. all convinced themselves that even though they enjoyed the financial/lifestyle benefits of Tony's crimes as much -- or perhaps more -- than he did, their hands were unblemished.   Carmela engaged in a delusional balancing act between guilt and her desire for material possessions, acting like a chastened Lady Macbeth in one episode, then twirling around in a new fur coat or flashing diamond jewelry in the next.  Meadow knew early on where her father's source of income came from, but seemed to think that going to law school and doing pro bono work somehow redeemed her (psst, Mead, whose blood paid for that degree?)  A.J., always a poser, played the part of emo conscientious objector to the wealth around him, but in the end he succumbed to it as easily as his mother did.

The idea that Carmela, AJ and Meadow were shown in the most graphic way possible the bloody reality of their existence seems (to me, anyway) to be the true climax of The Sopranos.

 

21 hours ago, aghst said:

But did Chase have this ending in mind when he wrote it or years later, he gets a do-over, since he has years of reactions from viewers.

 

20 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

 

Also there is no way Chase would have said this if Gandolfini was still alive.

 

Yes, I actually read about how he wanted to continue movies with Gandolfini and that is probably the main reason he kept the ending ambiguous, though he might not admit that now.

I think it would have been cathartic to see Meadow, AJ, and Carmela adjust to life without Tony's money giving them such an easy path.  It would have also been nice to see Tony rot in jail while everything he built by hurting so many people crumbles into dust.

I imagine the lukewarm reception to the Many Saints movie (personally, I found it a little disappointing) has really made it clear how the franchise really begins and ends with its main actor.

Edited November 5, 2021 by qtpye

[millennium]

3 hours ago, qtpye said:

 

I imagine the lukewarm reception to the Many Saints movie (personally, I found it a little disappointing) has really made it clear how the franchise really begins and ends with its main actor.

 

I was very excited when I first heard they were making "Many Saints," especially with Jon Bernthal in the cast.   Then came the trailers with young Gandolfini and I thought, "Wow."   But soon there were warning signs in the media, like "it's not really about Tony," and the lukewarm reviews, and the Monday morning quarterbacking "it should have been a series not a movie," and Ray freaking Liotta (really?  are there only two or three actors in all of Hollywood who can do mob movies?), and little by little the wind left my sails.   I still haven't watched despite being an HBO Max subscriber.   Because I know once I do it will permanently alter my perception of the original series and I'm in no rush to do that.

Edited November 6, 2021 by millennium

[oakville]

5 hours ago, qtpye said:

 

 

Yes, I actually read about how he wanted to continue movies with Gandolfini and that is probably the main reason he kept the ending ambiguous, though he might not admit that now.

I think it would have been cathartic to see Meadow, AJ, and Carmela adjust to life without Tony's money giving them such an easy path.  It would have also been nice to see Tony rot in jail while everything he built by hurting so many people crumbles into dust.

I imagine the lukewarm reception to the Many Saints movie (personally, I found it a little disappointing) has really made it clear how the franchise really begins and ends with its main actor.

I wonder if David Chase had ever thought about doing a reunion movie with the original cast. They could explain Gandolfini's death by having a funeral scene for Tony Soprano. 

I could see Meadow running the family's "legitimate businesses".

Perhaps, Furio would return to NJ & marry Carmela !

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, millennium said:

I was very excited when I first heard they were making "Many Saints," especially with Jon Bernthal in the cast.   Then came the trailers with young Gandolfini and I thought, "Wow."   But soon there were warning signs in the media, like "it's not really about Tony," and the lukewarm reviews, and the Monday morning quarterbacking "it should have been a series not a movie," and Ray freaking Liotta (really?  are there only two or three actors in all of Hollywood who can do mob movies?), and little by little the wind left my sails.   I still haven't watched despite being an HBO Max subscriber.   Because I know once I do it will permanently alter my perception of the original series and I'm in no rush to do that.

The main actor is good and quite handsome(which never hurts). James G’s son is solid in his role as young Tony. 
However, the movie absolutely adds nothing to the Sopranos canon and in all honesty is not a Sopranos movie. The performances are mostly good but we learn nothing about Tony that we did not already figure out in the main series. You could almost take the character of Tony out of the movie and it would not make much of a difference.

[millennium]

23 minutes ago, qtpye said:

The main actor is good and quite handsome(which never hurts). James G’s son is solid in his role as young Tony. 
However, the movie absolutely adds nothing to the Sopranos canon and in all honesty is not a Sopranos movie. The performances are mostly good but we learn nothing about Tony that we did not already figure out in the main series. You could almost take the character of Tony out of the movie and it would not make much of a difference.

I think I would rather watch The Sopranos Diaries from upthread, lol.

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, oakville said:

could see Meadow running the family's "legitimate businesses".

Did Tony have much legitimate businesses at the end of the series? His stake in the garbage business was gone, and I think he was part owner of the Bing but that was basically a brothel. I guess he owned at least part of the pork store and the property that became the Jamba Juice where they were making mortgage payments to him.

7 hours ago, millennium said:

I'm not sure Tony's death makes those things pointless.   Tony was a control freak and as you just pointed out, his control over the important things in his life was rapidly slipping through his fingers.   The loss of his own life could be seen as the final, natural conclusion of that process.

Maybe not pointless but a lot less interesting for me at least. Like that whole last season was basically his downfall. So thinking of him having to live in tbe aftermath of that is actually pretty interesting after all the pain he brought to others. But thinking of him basically just being dead and not having to deal with anything is a let down by comparison.

[millennium]

1 hour ago, oakville said:

I wonder if David Chase had ever thought about doing a reunion movie with the original cast. They could explain Gandolfini's death by having a funeral scene for Tony Soprano. 

I could see Meadow running the family's "legitimate businesses".

Perhaps, Furio would return to NJ & marry Carmela !

Oakville?  They let you out of the Morning Joe forum?  😁

Not only have Furio return, but naybe the whole Italian side of the family could come to America, with Sofia Milos running the show, leaving the remaining Sopranos characters  trying to cope with the radical change in management style.

[oakville]

6 hours ago, millennium said:

Oakville?  They let you out of the Morning Joe forum?  😁

Not only have Furio return, but naybe the whole Italian side of the family could come to America, with Sofia Milos running the show, leaving the remaining Sopranos characters  trying to cope with the radical change in management style.

Ha! I do watch other shows but Joe & Mika have a similar relationship to Tony & Carmela.

I would love to see Furio & Sofia on screen again.

[iwantcookies]

On 6/29/2021 at 4:37 PM, Kyle said:

Tony was in high school in the 80s, according to The Sopranos Diaries.

 

I’d watch that! That’s hilarious 🤣

[iwantcookies]

I just watched the show for the first time. Even without chase revealing the true end...

it was obvious that Tony died. Am I alone in that I wanted AJ to die? He was such a whiny/spoiled brat.

This show was really really good. 
 

RIP James. 
 

Silvios bad wig made me laugh every time. 
 

 

There were quiet a few times that it was predicted that Tony would die because of his weight. Poor James really did die fairly young in real life. 

 

 

[txhorns79]

9 hours ago, iwantcookies said:

Am I alone in that I wanted AJ to die? He was such a whiny/spoiled brat.

I didn't want him to die, but I thought his parents were very indulgent, and accepted a lot of rude and/or obnoxious behavior from him that deserved a stronger reprimand.  I understood why they did that after his suicide attempt, but they tolerated a lot of awful behavior for years before he attempted anything.  I wouldn't be shocked if it took him another decade or so before he finally got his life together. 

[Kel Varnsen]

On 12/19/2021 at 11:22 PM, iwantcookies said:

just watched the show for the first time. Even without chase revealing the true end...

it was obvious that Tony died.

The other thing that bugs me about Chase killing Tony is why the mystery around it. Like for every other murder this was never that kind of show. For every other murder you generally knew why someone was being killed and who was doing it before it happened. No one knows who the hell that guy at the counter was and why he killed Tony. Which I find annoying. Especially since there is always the talk about Bobby's line about how when it is your time you never see it coming. But the audience absolutely saw Bobby's death coming and knew exactly why he was being killed.

 

[MsTree]

3 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

The other thing that bugs me about Chase killing Tony is why the mystery around it.

I believe Chase wanted to keep the door open to a possible sequel, but since James died, so did Tony. And instead of a sequel, we got the prequel. RIP Tony/James.

[txhorns79]

11 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

No one knows who the hell that guy at the counter was and why he killed Tony.

My presumption was that even though Phil's crew and people said they were okay with him being taken out, not everyone was and the death of a boss required retaliation of equal measure.     

[SunnyBeBe]

I’m revisiting some episodes. Does anyone know exactly what the deal was with the old friend of Christopher that Tony hooks up with in Vegas.  They sleep together and do peyote.  Tony mentions she’s a college student who dances.  Was that true?  She seemed much older than a college student and not very concerned about classes. Her condo….idk.  
 

Does anyone recall if actor playing Christopher wanted to leave the show?
 

 

[BetterButter]

 

[yellowjacket]

3 hours ago, BetterButter said:

 

So exciting!  Ok Meadow and AJ are alive and apparently dealt with the trauma and like going to Bahr's in Highlands NJ after hanging out in Sea Bright.

I am from there.  My brother, a local wag, who basically lives at Bahr's, it's his clubhouse, never watched the Sopranos but was at the restaurant for the shoot in January.  He had no idea what they were shooting  but they told him not to tell anyone about it.  Highlands/Sea Bright are at an elbow of NJ - no land north, no land east, so easy to keep quiet.

He told me nothing.  I am questioning our further relationship.

[millennium]

On 2/13/2022 at 11:57 AM, SunnyBeBe said:

I’m revisiting some episodes. Does anyone know exactly what the deal was with the old friend of Christopher that Tony hooks up with in Vegas.  They sleep together and do peyote.  Tony mentions she’s a college student who dances.  Was that true?  She seemed much older than a college student and not very concerned about classes. Her condo….idk.  

 

 

I always had the impression she was an escort.

[SunnyBeBe]

2 hours ago, millennium said:

I always had the impression she was an escort.

So did I.  I just couldn’t imagine an actual college student, even if dancing, taking to Tony that way.  
 

I couldn’t but help from laughing when I imagine A.J. In the military, like he suggested.  
A.J. was one of my least favorite characters.  

[MagnusHex]

The Sopranos Season 1 Lookback

Finally got around to watching the first season of The Sopranos, The Wire, and Breaking Bad for the first time this month (BB was a half-rewatch as I dropped it a while ago).

Sopranos still holds up quite well as peak television today. I really enjoyed that it took its time boiling that emotional keg until it all comes together by the end. However, as I've learned from AV Club, The Sopranos is famous for its anticlimaxes, not the explosive "Godfather trilogy" that's the final three episodes of season 1.

Therefore, it's probably going to be a slow-burn from here on, and I'm cool with that. I'm always on the hunt for revolutionary storytelling, and patient, contemplative, prolonged series of mini-episodes that explore "a life in the day of Tony Soprano" sounds fine to me. If anything, I welcome anticlimaxes. Too often, I'd remark on a TV show, "Of course he's gonna get arrested by the end of the series; this is a television show." So yeah, surprise me, David Chase.

On an unrelated side note: The Wire further breaks this mold, of course, being grounded a lot more in reality than Sopranos and BB. I'm expecting that there's no big hoorah where the cops pat each other on their back for a job well done on cleaning up the streets. I also heard that this might be the reason why season 5 of The Wire sucks, but more on that in The Wire's own page.

Livia is a great villain in Sopranos, but man, Nancy Marchand played her so well as that manipulative, cunning schemer you never see coming. Literally, I couldn't spot a moment near the end of season 1 when she let her poker face slipped ('cept maybe that smile at the end, which could be interpreted ambiguously in a number of ways anyway).

I love the exchanges between Tony and Livia, especially in that season finale. "Look at her face! She's got a f***ing smile on her face!" Sopranos is a surprisingly comedic show, so much so you could do a mash-up with Sopranos running a Friends or Seinfeld theme song and it fits (cue dumb laugh tracks). I had a lot of laughs throughout the season, and there have been a lot of iconic quotables you can take from it, much like the equally quotable Godfather films (which Silvio just loves to recite). Honestly, I have a feeling Silvio's an old-school Godfather guy, and Christopher's a more new-age modern Scarface fellow. "This is Scarface, final scene, f***ing bazookas under each arm!" Always with the scenarios, that guy (I was an aspiring screenwriter for a decade or so, so I could relate to Chris' pains).

I think there's something worth noting about the kind of dark comedy between Sopranos and Breaking Bad. Both set their protagonists down a dark road of no return and no remorse, but whereas Breaking Bad stopped laughing at the appropriately grim moments, Sopranos, at least as far as season 1 is concerned, consistently maintains that chipper outlook towards the nihilism that's Tony's life. Whereas Breaking Bad tells us with a straight face that this is not going to end well with Walter White, Sopranos tells us a similar message, but with a grin and a smug, maybe even a chuckle. It's definitely more subtle in its way of showing Tony's sins and the consequences that come with them, just a dad living an ordinary suburban life and he whacks people sometimes. There's a more somber poignance to it like you would see in a scenic oil painting of a tranquil river with a dead body floating up, as opposed to most conventional TV shows that just reveal the protagonist's comeuppance in a bombastic "Scarface, final scene" "SAY MY NAME!" kind of way. And much as I love Breaking Bad, I think that's where it's a weaker story than Sopranos, always trying to go for that cinematic "big event" scene whereas David Chase settled for the more mundane and tranquil.

Being the protagonist, it's also natural that a part of us wants to root for Tony and Walter and even the a-hole McNulty (though that last one's more of pseudo-protagonist in an ensemble cast), and I remember reading a comic, "Grimm Fairy Tales" where I learned how kids nowadays had idolize these characters, and I can kinda understand why, being someone who also suffers from social anxiety and an ill temper like Tony Soprano. It's the same reason why people prefer Tony Stark over boring "Mr. Perfect" Steve Rogers: they're relatable. But when you really dig down into it, Tony Soprano's kind of "relatability" just isn't worth emulating at all when you consider his murders and cheating. Poor Carmela; she gets screwed over so many times by Tony in spite of her best efforts to be a good wife. Of course, she's no saint herself (living large off Tony's sins and enabling him), but damn, Tony. Appreciate your wife a little.

Anyway, sorry for the word dump. A lot of rambling up there, but I just wanted to share some of my thoughts being a first-time viewer of The Sopranos. Looks like it's only going to get better from here, especially when the (supposedly) worst episode of season 1, "A Hit is a Hit", was still more engaging and interesting than your average TV series' worst episodes. Things can only go up from here, even that notorious season 6 I heard about.

[BetterButter]

Tony Sirico, famed "Sopranos" actor, dies at age 79

[Kel Varnsen]

20 minutes ago, BetterButter said:

Tony Sirico, famed "Sopranos" actor, dies at age 79

That's sad. Although how is it possible that he was only in his mid 50's when he started playing Paulie Walnuts? He looked like he was 70+ then.

[aghst]

Sirico was really in OC, went to prison for it.

I think he was in some documentary about former mobsters.

That may have helped him get cast for this role.

[DrSpaceman73]

I've been rewatching the series snd really enjoy it still. Lots of stuff I forgot about

I've always been a big fan of D girl. Alicia Witt is just amazing as Amy that episude. Still great. 

Season 4 watching right now and really f*** Johnny sac.  Tries to take money for doing nothing in a few real estate deals. One of them wasn't even a 'company' deal but just Tony selling a place he swindled his uncle out of.  Then he wants 40 percent for doing nothing on the Hud scam. 100 percent behind Tony on that one. 

Christopher in retrospect was always just so bad at his 'job'   high or trying to write a screenplay most of the time. So glad he died last season. 

Janice was a manipulative piece of  shit in her own way but inadvertently funny often. 

Paulie man he's lucky he didn't get whacked for blabbing to Johnny sac. 

Still 3 more seasons and loving it 20 years later. 

Also those mafia guys really are a petty and gossipy bunch.  They're like a sewing circle with lots of deli meats snd strippers. 

[DrSpaceman73]

On 12/21/2021 at 3:35 AM, MsTree said:

I believe Chase wanted to keep the door open to a possible sequel, but since James died, so did Tony. And instead of a sequel, we got the prequel. RIP Tony/James.

Yes I think this was the case as well. He wanted him to die but hbo/ someone didn't like it and wanted to leave the door open fir a movie/ sequel with him so he wrote it this way. 

Then poor James dies in real life and I think we all just accept now Tony died at the end. 

If any of you haven't seen it though Lillehammer is a superb series that acts as a sort of sequel.  Sans tony

[aghst]

I'm rewatching too.  Just watched Pine Barrens.

Good stuff.

Now he's having an affair with Gloria Trillo, the nutcase played by Annabella Sciorra.  I know that was a mess.

I'd forgotten that Carmela went to talk to a therapist, after trying a few couple sessions with Tony.

The therapist was blunt, telling Carmela she was taking blood money.  So very early on, Carmela made a deliberate choice.  She was in tears after that session but she doesn't go away and then she gets giddy when Tony gives her some expensive bling for Christmas.

Not only that, she goes and buys herself a matching piece and lets Tony know she'd like another piece to get the whole collection.

Ringer Prestige Podcast just discussed an episode from season 5.  Apparently that's the one where Tony and Adrianna sleep together, beginning of the end for her.

[DrSpaceman73]

12 hours ago, aghst said:

I'm rewatching too.  Just watched Pine Barrens.

Good stuff.

Now he's having an affair with Gloria Trillo, the nutcase played by Annabella Sciorra.  I know that was a mess.

I'd forgotten that Carmela went to talk to a therapist, after trying a few couple sessions with Tony.

The therapist was blunt, telling Carmela she was taking blood money.  So very early on, Carmela made a deliberate choice.  She was in tears after that session but she doesn't go away and then she gets giddy when Tony gives her some expensive bling for Christmas.

Not only that, she goes and buys herself a matching piece and lets Tony know she'd like another piece to get the whole collection.

Ringer Prestige Podcast just discussed an episode from season 5.  Apparently that's the one where Tony and Adrianna sleep together, beginning of the end for her.

Yes I remember her going to a therapist on her own and he was blunt no BS like the priest or others.  And she doesn't really listen. 

I'm on season five now and don't recall that about Tony and ade.  Guess it's coming up

Also forgot robert loggia made an appearance old guard mafia getting out of jail.  

[Kel Varnsen]

19 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Then poor James dies in real life and I think we all just accept now Tony died at the end. 

Not me. I don't care what Chase says now. He left the story open ended. And it works way better for me if Tony has to go on with his shitty life after all the suffering he caused other people. Because if he dies he never really has to face how much his life is going to start really sucking very shortly. I mean the scene where Meadow tells him she would be a doctor helping kids instead of being a lawyer with a mob guy husband if he hadn't been a mob boss was brutal. Not to mention how super fucking annoying Paulie is (there was a whole episode about that) and he is the only guy left in Tony's crew.

It especially works as a response to the number of people who idolized Tony and thought he was an awesome badass.

[aghst]

Yeah once Sopranos got a huge audience, it brought in people who looked at the characters on the show superficially.

They HATED Melfi and Carmela for trying to rein in Tony, crimping his style.

It drove Chase crazy, that a lot of fans embraced Tony's sociopathic behavior and they wanted the crew to solve a lot of problems, like they would take care of terrorists after 9/11, take care of any terrorist infiltration of the docks.

Whacking was what they lived for.

And what do you know, they tended to hate ALL the female characters.

But I don't think Chase saw Tony completely in a negative light either.  There are some tragic aspects to his life.

Tony felt anguish about having to kill Pussy for awhile because he was one of his best friends.  Meadow HATED him for his racist confrontation with Noah and Tony kept choosing bad goomahs like Irina and Gloria who were emotionally exhausting for him like his mother.

So even though Tony was at the top of his game, the big boss, the captain of industry or a leader/general as he liked to see himself, he had all kinds of personnel problems from Richie, Ralphie, etc.

As he tells Melfi, he had no choice but to go into this life, whereas he wanted both his kids to get as far away from his life as possible, by becoming successful in legit professions.

Little by little, he lost all those closest to him.  He killed some or had some killed because they'd been flipped.  

The fights with Carmela (I can't remember if it's season 4 or 5) when his infidelities came to a head were also wore him down.  He had seen the marital problems his parents had but couldn't avoid them himself, largely because of his doing.

So at the end of the series, the family is together and there's peace or at least they could still enjoy a dinner together.  Even if he didn't die nor get locked up, was he ever going to find lasting peace of mind?

But many fans wanted to see there be justice, either he gets locked up or killed for his deeds.  Of course this became more common with shows that followed The Sopranos with antiheroes as lead character.

People wanted to see Walt White die or else there was going to be a riot.  There's also similar momentum building with Barry, about how that show will end.  One the one hand, you don't want to see bad people or bad behavior go unpunished on these prestige TV shows.  On the other hand, are moralistic endings any more than fan service, maybe not the best storytelling?

[DrSpaceman73]

I never had a strong desire one way or another for Tony living or dying. 

His whole mafia family was dying due to a combination of things. Some got old and died. Some they killed themselves over pretty petty squabbles. The government flipped and jailed Some. By the end it was obvious the organization was on its last legs with no future.  Christopher was Tony's future plan and once he died the path forward for Tony was limited and there was no long term plan

Also the death of the mom and pop or local stores kills it.  Like they showed one episode you can't shake down a Starbucks or other corporate store. 

So whether he died in the restaurant at the end or later on, the organization was declining fast. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by DrSpaceman73

[qtpye]

6 hours ago, aghst said:

eah once Sopranos got a huge audience, it brought in people who looked at the characters on the show superficially.

They HATED Melfi and Carmela for trying to rein in Tony, crimping his style.

It drove Chase crazy, that a lot of fans embraced Tony's sociopathic behavior and they wanted the crew to solve a lot of problems, like they would take care of terrorists after 9/11, take care of any terrorist infiltration of the docks.

It was embracing toxic masculinity in the face of feminism. 

Men are given a lot of leeway in these circles as long as they "provide".

If a man provides some people feel the women in their lives should worship the ground they walk on.

I did have a problem with Carmella. I don't care how many masses she attends, she knows what her husband is and lives a life of ease due to his activities.

6 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

And it works way better for me if Tony has to go on with his shitty life after all the suffering he caused other people. Because if he dies he never really has to face how much his life is going to start really sucking very shortly. I mean the scene where Meadow tells him she would be a doctor helping kids instead of being a lawyer with a mob guy husband if he hadn't been a mob boss was brutal. Not to mention how super fucking annoying Paulie is (there was a whole episode about that) and he is the only guy left in Tony's crew.

I one hundred percent agree. It would have been a lot more satisfying to me if he had to see his world destroyed and him have to live with the consequences of his actions.

[Kel Varnsen]

15 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

So whether he died in the restaurant at the end or later on, the organization was declining fast. 

Right but I see it as if he is killed at the restaurant, he dies on top as the mob boss from Jersey who took on one of the 5 families and basically won, and he basically enjoys the last happy moment with his family. If he lives (and let me see if I can remember it all): he is stuck in a terrible marriage and having fights with his wife that are worse than the ones that led to their separation, even though he wanted both his kids away from mob life both are going to be actively involved, all his closest work confidants are dead or near death (Chris, Bobby, Sil), the only one left alive is Paulie who he hates to be around, his income is way down because Vito made him a ton of money through the ports, he will probably be supporting Janice for the rest of his life (along with Christopher's and Vito's wives). He no longer has Melfi to make him feel better about his terrible life choices and help with the panic attacks. And to top it off he is about to be indicted. It seems like they set it up so a super terrible life is just around the corner.

[DrSpaceman73]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Right but I see it as if he is killed at the restaurant, he dies on top as the mob boss from Jersey who took on one of the 5 families and basically won, and he basically enjoys the last happy moment with his family. If he lives (and let me see if I can remember it all): he is stuck in a terrible marriage and having fights with his wife that are worse than the ones that led to their separation, even though he wanted both his kids away from mob life both are going to be actively involved, all his closest work confidants are dead or near death (Chris, Bobby, Sil), the only one left alive is Paulie who he hates to be around, his income is way down because Vito made him a ton of money through the ports, he will probably be supporting Janice for the rest of his life (along with Christopher's and Vito's wives). He no longer has Melfi to make him feel better about his terrible life choices and help with the panic attacks. And to top it off he is about to be indicted. It seems like they set it up so a super terrible life is just around the corner.

I agree with everything you say except charactizing him as 'winning' if he died then. Yes he had fleeting moments of happiness with his family and here and there but Tony would never be happy for long and would always fall back into depression. And much of that had to do with his job and the life he was born into, his parents. He could fill his life with all the money, women, drugs, toys, etc but nine of it made him happy.  

Sure he could die happy at that moment but his life was one of turmoil, crisis and depression.  

I think we may be splitting hairs on this though and ultimately agree.  His future was Dim at best for all the reasons you mentioned. 

Much like the godfather, even scarface, while on a superficial level the mafia stories seem like a story of 'success' with immigrants gaining money and power after poor beginnings, albeit via illicit and illegal means, these stories are really about their downfall.  The life ruins them personally. 

This is how goodfellas is different and a strong contrast to the others.   He 'gets out' via witness protection and then is miserable living a mundane life.  He never wanted to leave the life or was made personally unhappy from being involved. Just the opposite, He loved it all

[Kel Varnsen]

6 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I agree with everything you say except charactizing him as 'winning' if he died then. Yes he had fleeting moments of happiness with his family and here and there but Tony would never be happy for long and would always fall back into depression. And much of that had to do with his job and the life he was born into, his parents. He could fill his life with all the money, women, drugs, toys, etc but nine of it made him happy.  

Ya maybe not actually winning from what we saw. But if Tony dies in the finale, the story of his life (told by guys in his crew and probably Carm and a certain percentage of the audience) is that he was the best boss the DiMeo family ever had, he faced off against a NYC family and won (and was never a rat). And then was killed, after a truce was negotiated by some punk who shot him while he was with his family (who are supposed to be off limits). So he dies being held up as a mob hero. 

But if he lives what is his outlook? Continued panic attacks with maybe one leading to his death, or possibly going to jail while waiting trial, or maybe killing himself. That's way more an interesting story.

[DrSpaceman73]

Johnny sac becomes more and more an arrogant prick as the show progresses.

Wants carmine taken out but doesn't want to do it himself so strikes a deal with Tony then gets mad when situation changes snd tiny won't do it. From then on he is insufferable. 

Long Term parking just finished it. So rough. Why did the fbi not have eyes on her the whole time?  When sil pulls off to the highway and slows a bit why doesn't she try to jump out?  It seemed like then she knew what was happening? 

Sil always seems the most level headed and likeable I guess you'd say of the crew but then moments like that remind you he is a ruthless MFer cold hearted just like the rest of them. A few other moments too fie him like that.

[DrSpaceman73]

For all the mafia talk of loyalty, the fbi was talking to like half their crew!  

Seriously they had at least half a dozen inside informants if not more throughout the show. 

[aghst]

3 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

For all the mafia talk of loyalty, the fbi was talking to like half their crew!  

Seriously they had at least half a dozen inside informants if not more throughout the show. 

During the first season they played up how Tony had a family and lived an upper middle class suburban life.

I think Chase was trying to show the mafia on its last legs.  No matter how close they were as friends, they would turn on each other to save their neck, like Pussy.

Tony couldn't get over Pussy's betrayal and having to kill him for awhile.  Kept having dreams about him and that singing fish reminded him of the dream he had in which he determined that Pussy was the informant because Pussy was a trout in the dream.

But they were under pressure to make scores, because they had to keep kicking up money, so Pussy dealt drugs, Richie was dealing drugs on the garbage route, Tony's crew was stealing construction supplies from the Esplanade where they had these lucrative no-show or no-work jobs.

Chrissy got into drugs, as did Adriana.  So even if they thought they believed in the omertà, there was always divergent interests and conflicts.  If they got in trouble, no way they were going to protect each other.  They also suspected that Tony had some of them whacked, because people were disappearing, supposedly going into Witness Protection.

Just watched the episode where Adriana is apprehended by the FBI and sees that the undercover FBI agent who befriended her was a cop.  She had the projectile vomiting in the FBI office.  They gaslit her with "up to 25 years" for possession with intent to distribute coke.  So she caved easily.

Point is there were always vulnerabilities, because they were always in conflict about the money.  Now and then they'd openly express resentment at having to kick up money to Tony, who didn't actually go out there and earn.

[DrSpaceman73]

25 minutes ago, aghst said:

During the first season they played up how Tony had a family and lived an upper middle class suburban life.

I think Chase was trying to show the mafia on its last legs.  No matter how close they were as friends, they would turn on each other to save their neck, like Pussy.

Tony couldn't get over Pussy's betrayal and having to kill him for awhile.  Kept having dreams about him and that singing fish reminded him of the dream he had in which he determined that Pussy was the informant because Pussy was a trout in the dream.

But they were under pressure to make scores, because they had to keep kicking up money, so Pussy dealt drugs, Richie was dealing drugs on the garbage route, Tony's crew was stealing construction supplies from the Esplanade where they had these lucrative no-show or no-work jobs.

Chrissy got into drugs, as did Adriana.  So even if they thought they believed in the omertà, there was always divergent interests and conflicts.  If they got in trouble, no way they were going to protect each other.  They also suspected that Tony had some of them whacked, because people were disappearing, supposedly going into Witness Protection.

Just watched the episode where Adriana is apprehended by the FBI and sees that the undercover FBI agent who befriended her was a cop.  She had the projectile vomiting in the FBI office.  They gaslit her with "up to 25 years" for possession with intent to distribute coke.  So she caved easily.

Point is there were always vulnerabilities, because they were always in conflict about the money.  Now and then they'd openly express resentment at having to kick up money to Tony, who didn't actually go out there and earn.

The fbi seemed to use the potential for drug charges on most of them to get  information. 

Which is why Tony likely told them not to sell the stuff but they would never listen. 

Makes me wonder if this is the real reason for many of our drug laws. Not to stop the trade or flow but so the fbi snd police can use it to manipulate felons to cooperate. 

I remember talking initially on twops way back in the day about ade and how easily she caved to them.  They didn't have much on her, seemed very much to be bluffing.  She wasnt selling or distributing. She used some but it was just in her club, but she wasnt masterminding it all. That vomiting scene was epic though. 

Edited August 10, 2022 by DrSpaceman73

[aghst]

I think the "intent to distribute" is automatically prosecuted if they had over a certain amount.

People who bought a lot at once was liable to such charges.

But a lot of users did deal, because it was a way to finance their habit.

[Kel Varnsen]

22 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

The fbi seemed to use the potential for drug charges on most of them to get  information. 

Which is why Tony likely told them not to sell the stuff but they would never listen. 

Makes me wonder if this is the real reason for many of our drug laws. Not to stop the trade or flow but so the fbi snd police can use it to manipulate felons to cooperate. 

I remember talking initially on twops way back in the day about ade and how easily she caved to them.  They didn't have much on her, seemed very much to be bluffing.  She wasnt selling or distributing. She used some but it was just in her club, but she wasnt masterminding it all. That vomiting scene was epic though. 

I think a big part of them doing drugs is that a lot of their other sources of income were drying up. Like how many people would go to Tony's casino above an auto shop or something when legal casinos are a lot more common. Why borrow money from Paulie when you can go to a payday loan place and not get killed. Plus you have places like Starbucks that aren't going to pay protection and other OC groups also trying to make money and all of the sudden you need to find a lot riskier ways to pay for that crappy, poorly decorated mansion.

[DrSpaceman73]

I actually felt bad for Anthony Jr when his gf dumps him and won't marry him. I mean I know why she did it and I don't blame her. But he did finally change and grow up stopped being an insufferable little teen/early twenties twat.  He generally cared for her and lost her over his family

[aghst]

Finished a rewatch.  Dang 20 years between viewings.

Still enjoyed it, wasn't a slog.  I held off on watching some good dramas available on various streaming services.

Not to go down a rabbit hole but looked like Chase was trying to tie up some loose strings.  Tony visits Junior, who may or may not be losing it, visits Sil at the hospital, who may or may not come out of the coma.

Seems to be at a good place with the his family -- Carmela, Meadow, AJ -- at least for the time being.

He gets Paulie to be the main captain -- Paulie is initially reluctant because previous captains who handled all the construction money had died.  Well slim pickings for the Soprano outfit.

Chase wanted to end the show, didn't care about the blank check HBO was willing to give him.  So there are an unusual amount of shots of other patrons in that diner before it cuts to black.  Many repeated shots of potential assassins.

But that isn't usually the way hits have been depicted on the show.  Hit men just go directly at them with the guns out and shooting on approach.  It would be different if the hit man came into the diner, dawdled a bit, waited until all 4 were at the table and maneuvered to kill Tony from the blind side.

That and the fact that Chase was cagey for years about whether Tony was killed suggests that he left himself room to do a movie years later.  He might have revisited Tony 10 or 20 years later if Gandalfini didn't die.

[DrSpaceman73]

I agree he left the ending vague to leave that opening and probably would have happened if Gandolfini lived

But in my mind still, when the actor died tony died at the end of the show. 

Still a great show.