Castle - General Discussion

[Featherhat]

On 7/27/2023 at 9:33 AM, BellyLaughter said:

I have television series PTSD from those days… it’s the only time I was hoping for a cancellation of a TV show I loved… it was just a conspiracy ridden mess by the end. And from what I read about potential S9 plans it would appear to cancel it was a merciful act even if that did mean putting many wonderful, talented people out of work for a time.

I've hoped for other shows I loved to be cancelled or "final seasoned" really before and since because I wanted them to finish with a plan/whilst they were still good rather than descend into what so often happens for a show's last couple of seasons but I definitely was with Castle. 

Fandom chaos was not helped by alleged insiders popping up here and everywhere else with contradicting versions of events either.

Funny thing is until then I'd always thought of Castle as a rather vocal but mild fandom, although I wasn't 100% involved after S3. There was only one real relationship and whilst people took sides between Castle vs Beckett and NF vs SK (which happens in most fandoms) and it sometimes got heated, it wasn't as bad as other versions of that I've experienced in which there was utter hatred of the "other" character/actor in the ship and if you liked both you were an outlier. There were no real tin hat theories about secret lives or babies - only what might have happened to make the leads fall out etc. And only a few people seemed to take that to insane extremes, at least here and other places I visited. Most people liked most of the supporting cast and wanted more screentime for them, there was no obsessive fans counting minutes every regular got and bragging when "their" actor got more than actors B and C this week. 

But S8 and the potential S9 changed all that. Now the final drama is all that I tend to remember about the Castle fandom. Kinda sad. 

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, Featherhat said:

Now the final drama is all that I tend to remember about the Castle fandom. Kinda sad. 

I am really enjoying watching now much more than when it was on and everyone on the boards (TVWoP I think?) were going on about how the 2 leads couldn't stand each other. I do not see that at all now and didn't then either. 

[CheshireCat]

I caught reruns of S5 E3-6 last night. (Well, I skipped E5. While I think it's well-written and well-acted, I didn't feel like it last night).

To this day, I absolutely dislike how they treated the Castle-Gates relationship in E3. Did Castle really have to smash Gates' doll? There seemed no point to it other than to embarrass the character/make him look bad again. From what I read, Fillion said that he liked this sort of thing (which, I think, says a lot about his confidence in himself which, in turn, is not surprising since he's an artist and artists often have a lot of self-doubt but that's a different subject) but I don't.

E4 is still one of my favorites. Not because of the plot but because I think it's almost a whole episode of great/memorable lines and it's acted so, so well!

I never noticed it before but I think Beckett was kind of mean to Castle at the end of E6. Yes, he made fun of the show but she admitted that he did have a point and he did concede to her point as well. He also made a really huge concession by agreeing to watch a Nebula-9 marathon with her and not making fun of the show while doing it, so I think it was really unfair of her to then come out in that ugly mask costume. I wouldn't have minded if she'd come out in something he wasn't looking for but it would have been nice of her to then maybe tell him how easy it is to get it off or something.

[Featherhat]

7 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I am really enjoying watching now much more than when it was on and everyone on the boards (TVWoP I think?) were going on about how the 2 leads couldn't stand each other. I do not see that at all now and didn't then either. 

Yeah, I was pretty active on the old TWOP for a while and the rumour that they couldn't stand each other started even when they were still doing amicable interview together. But I still don't see it on screen either. They had "it" for a long time, even if things were rocky BTS, which often happens on popular long running shows. 

I'm in the process of moving and  semi working from home and Castle on Disney+ in the UK is ideal background noise for right now. 

Edited July 29, 2023 by Featherhat

[shapeshifter]

10 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

I caught reruns of S5 E3-6 last night. (Well, I skipped E5. While I think it's well-written and well-acted, I didn't feel like it last night).

To this day, I absolutely dislike how they treated the Castle-Gates relationship in E3. Did Castle really have to smash Gates' doll? There seemed no point to it other than to embarrass the character/make him look bad again. From what I read, Fillion said that he liked this sort of thing (which, I think, says a lot about his confidence in himself which, in turn, is not surprising since he's an artist and artists often have a lot of self-doubt but that's a different subject) but I don't.

E4 is still one of my favorites. Not because of the plot but because I think it's almost a whole episode of great/memorable lines and it's acted so, so well!

I never noticed it before but I think Beckett was kind of mean to Castle at the end of E6. Yes, he made fun of the show but she admitted that he did have a point and he did concede to her point as well. He also made a really huge concession by agreeing to watch a Nebula-9 marathon with her and not making fun of the show while doing it, so I think it was really unfair of her to then come out in that ugly mask costume. I wouldn't have minded if she'd come out in something he wasn't looking for but it would have been nice of her to then maybe tell him how easy it is to get it off or something.

I just (mostly) saw these too, and agree with almost all of the above, except I didn't see Beckett's costume joke as mean. Castle likes pranks, right? And Beckett knows that, right? I didn't pick up on the scene intending to show Beckett as being mean to Castle.

Anyway, I had to look up blurbs about those episodes to refresh my memory, and thought I'd share:
google.com/search?q=Castle+(TV+series)+Season+5

S5 E3 · Secret's Safe With Me — Oct 8, 2012
When a young woman is mysteriously murdered, Beckett and Castle discover her death may be linked to a repossessed storage unit up for auction.

S5 E4 · Murder, He Wrote 
Castle and Beckett's plans for a romantic weekend in the Hamptons are interrupted when a dying man stumbles into Castle's backyard, collapsing into his pool.

S5 E5 · Probable Cause
The investigation into a ritualistic murder turns up evidence linking Castle to the crime, leading Beckett to wonder how well she really knows him.

S5 E6 · The Final Frontier — Nov 5, 2012
As Beckett and Castle investigate a murder at a sci-fi convention, they encounter avid fans in costume, egotistical celebrities and a lot of drama.

[Bort]

The only way one can tell things were rocky between the leads is how they don’t quite share scenes as much in the later seasons. Castle in his PI office, Beckett working a case. They’d often be doing their own thing for much of an episode and have like two scenes together, but I could never see it in the scenes they did share. Because they’re good actors.

[andromeda331]

On 7/28/2023 at 8:39 PM, CheshireCat said:

I caught reruns of S5 E3-6 last night. (Well, I skipped E5. While I think it's well-written and well-acted, I didn't feel like it last night).

To this day, I absolutely dislike how they treated the Castle-Gates relationship in E3. Did Castle really have to smash Gates' doll? There seemed no point to it other than to embarrass the character/make him look bad again. From what I read, Fillion said that he liked this sort of thing (which, I think, says a lot about his confidence in himself which, in turn, is not surprising since he's an artist and artists often have a lot of self-doubt but that's a different subject) but I don't.

It's not the smashing of the doll that bugs me it's that Castle doesn't replace it. That felt really out of character for Castle. He saw how much the dolls meant to Gates. He would have replaced them.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

It's not the smashing of the doll that bugs me it's that Castle doesn't replace it. That felt really out of character for Castle. He saw how much the dolls meant to Gates. He would have replaced them.

Doesn’t Castle replace the smashed collectibles in a later episode?  
Or is that only in my head?

[CheshireCat]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

Doesn’t Castle replace the smashed collectibles in a later episode?  
Or is that only in my head?

I don't remember that. Maybe you're thinking about the fact that he's actually smashing the doll Gates brought from home and not the one that was in the storage locker?

 

2 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

It's not the smashing of the doll that bugs me it's that Castle doesn't replace it. That felt really out of character for Castle. He saw how much the dolls meant to Gates. He would have replaced them.

That is a good point and you're right. It's not out of character for him to smash the doll. It's out of character for him to not replace the doll or, at least, try finding it and then come up with something else should he be unable to.

 

On 7/29/2023 at 9:38 AM, shapeshifter said:

I just (mostly) saw these too, and agree with almost all of the above, except I didn't see Beckett's costume joke as mean. Castle likes pranks, right? And Beckett knows that, right? I didn't pick up on the scene intending to show Beckett as being mean to Castle.

I agree, I don't think it was intended to show Beckett as being mean and it was not my intention to say that. I think it was intended as the joke being on Castle.

What I meant was that I didn't think that Beckett was being fair because it was very clear why Castle asked her to wear the costume. Whether he likes pranks or not, I think there's a time and place for everything and this was not the time for pranks. And given how Beckett was shown, I'm sure she knew that. Yet, despite all of his concessions, she still chose to prank him anyway. (Only to sulk just episodes later when Castle doesn't pay her enough attention and then kiss another guy and get mad at Castle when he gets jealous. The show was way above average when it comes to character development and growth (S7&8 excluded) but some decisions TPTB made were weird).

[andromeda331]

I liked it because Castle had been complaining all episode about how terrible the show that Beckett loved was. My only complaint for that episode is Castle acting bummed to be doing a book signing at comic con. That seems like something he would love.

Beckett was mean at the end of Swan Song when she locks the cameraman in storage room after they help her out by not showing Gates their recording of a moment between her and Castle. That was crappy of her. 

[LizzieE]

Anyone have any idea what residuals the Castle crew receive for the many episodes constantly airing on Lifetime or the episode sales on the streaming services?  Hope it's not the pennies detailed by some of those on the picket lines.  Between Castle and Rizzoli and Isles reruns, 2 full days of Lifetime programming are covered.  Just started rewatching Castle since the trauma of season 8 and whole cancellation mess has finally faded.  Surprised how engaging the story lines were (and are) especially when I'm no longer invested in Caskett.  

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, LizzieE said:

Anyone have any idea what residuals the Castle crew receive for the many episodes constantly airing on Lifetime or the episode sales on the streaming services?  Hope it's not the pennies detailed by some of those on the picket lines.  Between Castle and Rizzoli and Isles reruns, 2 full days of Lifetime programming are covered.  Just started rewatching Castle since the trauma of season 8 and whole cancellation mess has finally faded.  Surprised how engaging the story lines were (and are) especially when I'm no longer invested in Caskett.  

I have read that - for linear [broadcast] TV, residual amounts decrease amounts depending on how many cycles the show goes through. (So, I imagine, as an example, many of the L&O actors and actors from the spinoffs, likely make pennies to the dollar as the shows have been run for ages. But with all the channels that do, I imagine those pennies still would add up.) When a series begins syndication, I think that is when the bigger royalties come into play, then become less the more the show cycles through.

The stickler here - and why the SAG-AFTRA and WGA strikes are happening - is because there are no residuals if a series is streamed. This is one of the changes the guilds want. I did see a video where an actor showed their 3-cent check (yes!), but the way he was talking, I wasn't sure if this was something from streaming (how, I don't know as there is nothing for residuals or so I've been reading!), or if it is from broadcast.

Either way, despite thoughts otherwise, it seems many of these actors and crew are NOT rolling in the dough.

[shapeshifter]

8 hours ago, LizzieE said:

Anyone have any idea what residuals the Castle crew receive for the many episodes constantly airing on Lifetime or the episode sales on the streaming services?  Hope it's not the pennies detailed by some of those on the picket lines.  Between Castle and Rizzoli and Isles reruns, 2 full days of Lifetime programming are covered

In addition to the information @WendyCR72 has boiled down for us here:

7 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I have read that - for linear [broadcast] TV, residual amounts decrease amounts depending on how many cycles the show goes through. (So, I imagine, as an example, many of the L&O actors and actors from the spinoffs, likely make pennies to the dollar as the shows have been run for ages. But with all the channels that do, I imagine those pennies still would add up.) When a series begins syndication, I think that is when the bigger royalties come into play, then become less the more the show cycles through.

The stickler here - and why the SAG-AFTRA and WGA strikes are happening - is because there are no residuals if a series is streamed. This is one of the changes the guilds want. I did see a video where an actor showed their 3-cent check (yes!), but the way he was talking, I wasn't sure if this was something from streaming (how, I don't know as there is nothing for residuals or so I've been reading!), or if it is from broadcast.

Either way, despite thoughts otherwise, it seems many of these actors and crew are NOT rolling in the dough.

This blog seems to cover everything if you have the patience to read it all: wrapbook.com/blog/essential-guide-sag-rates

[WendyCR72]

There is plenty of chatter on TwitX due to Dick Van Dyke actually showing up in a short-term role on Days of Our Lives at 97-years-young!

Great, you say! But what does this have to do with Castle, you ask?

Well, someone on TwitX apparently involved in a "spec episode" (guessing this is an episode plan of sorts) of Castle mentioned having planned an episode with Tim Conway and...Dick Van Dyke, but Channing Dungrey vetoed the idea because those actors were "too old" for the desired demographic.

This person posted a script excerpt of the unfilmed/not-done episode, if you're curious! The thread before said script starts here if you want to follow the whole discussion!

At least Peacock/Days knows Dick Van Dyke's worth!

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, WendyCR72 said:

There is plenty of chatter on TwitX due to Dick Van Dyke actually showing up in a short-term role on Days of Our Lives at 97-years-young!

Great, you say! But what does this have to do with Castle, you ask?

Well, someone on TwitX apparently involved in a "spec episode" (guessing this is an episode plan of sorts) of Castle mentioned having planned an episode with Tim Conway and...Dick Van Dyke, but Channing Dungrey vetoed the idea because those actors were "too old" for the desired demographic.

This person posted a script excerpt of the unfilmed/not-done episode, if you're curious! The thread before said script starts here if you want to follow the whole discussion!

At least Peacock/Days knows Dick Van Dyke's worth!

That would have been great to see!

[Simba122504]

I just started watching the series for the very first time. 

[andromeda331]

22 hours ago, Simba122504 said:

I just started watching the series for the very first time. 

I hope you like it. It's a really great show. The main cast is great and so are Martha and Alexis.

[Simba122504]

On 9/13/2023 at 12:02 AM, andromeda331 said:

I hope you like it. It's a really great show. The main cast is great and so are Martha and Alexis.

I've been enjoying it. I'm at the end of S2. I love Martha already. 

[WendyCR72]

Deadline has posted an article [with an '80s-era photo of Ms. Sullivan from her Falcon Crest days, oddly enough!] saying Susan Sullivan is recovering from lung cancer surgery.

Best of luck to her!

[Paperclips]

I was thinking about this, Castle had a great run and the producers ended it on one of the worst ending in time.

I know the leads didn't get along, but that is on the Producers.

Even if the Leads hated each other it didn't show on Camera.

Castle deserved a better ending.  I can't imagine working on that show and that was the finale.  

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Paperclips said:

Even if the Leads hated each other it didn't show on Camera.

I have never read or heard anything outside of message boards to support the idea that Nathan Fillion and Stana Katic didn't get along. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[KaveDweller]

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I have never read or heard anything outside of message boards to support the idea that Nathan Fillion and Stana Katic didn't get along. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I mean, there are tons of tabloid articles about it. I don't think either of them is going to come out and admit it, so I don't think it's possible to have proof.

But it didn't really show on camera either way. Nathan and Stana were great actors.

[CheshireCat]

I may have said so before but I'm much more interested in what was going on with the showrunners than Katic and Fillion. If I understand correctly, Castle was Miller's and Marlowe's pitch and project and yet, they stepped down as showrunners after 6 seasons. Given the turn the show took (the wedding-that-never-was, Castle's abduction/the new "big mystery"), I strongly suspect that ABC wanted the show to go where Miller and Marlowe didn't want to take it. Season 7 still works and still is a better fit than season 8.

S7 looked like someone got cold feet with regards to where the show was headed and thought they needed to go back to S1 with regards to building a new mystery and maybe back to S5 with regards to the Castle/Beckett relationship instead of simply moving forward.
S8 looked like someone thought the show needed to reinvent itself.

Both seldomly work this late into a show and is the reason why the brass should never involve themselves in the creative process (unless they're involved from the beginning, of course).

 

[WendyCR72]

Well, if we are to look at S8, it could be argued the drastic change happened because the two leads wanted reduced time together.

So much happened back then [including the fallout when Stana Katic and Tamala Jones were announced to be out] to make me think the rumors of discord between the leads had some sort of validity.

NOT blaming either, but enough was inferred that it could be gleaned that S8 was a matter of circumstance. If I recall, Katic's negotiations were fraught that last time. So, I still think - right or wrong - the leads should have just sucked it up for the good of the show. But their rumored issues were too great, and S8 was the sad result.

[Paperclips]

Whatever way it had just it's course.  It was the End.  Most people can't even stay Married for 8 years.

[Paperclips]

I can't find an edit button so I'll do another post

It was just a very bad ending to a show that went on for years.  

If I was the Producer, I couldn't even imagine ending it that way,

I don't understand why shows that go on for years end so badly.

[shapeshifter]

18 minutes ago, Paperclips said:

I can't find an edit button so I'll do another post

In the top right of your post, click the 3 dots (ellipsis) to be able to click on Edit. 
(I don't know why they hid it.)

 

++++++++

 

20 minutes ago, Paperclips said:

It was just a very bad ending to a show that went on for years.  

If I was the Producer, I couldn't even imagine ending it that way,

I don't understand why shows that go on for years end so badly.

I didn't watch Castle regularly when it was on (I worked 2-3 nights a week then) so I was fine with the ending.
But I religiously watched OG Roswell and was an ultra fan, so I felt equally unhappy about that show's similar ending — even though I recognize now that Castle was a much better show..

[Bort]

The alternative was them leaving it on a cliffhanger with the expectation of renewal only to get cancelled. I’ll happily accept the tacked on epilogue.

[statsgirl]

22 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

But it didn't really show on camera either way. Nathan and Stana were great actors.

They were. Even when the rumours about them fighting were rife, they still had amazing chemistry on screen.

18 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

So much happened back then [including the fallout when Stana Katic and Tamala Jones were announced to be out] to make me think the rumors of discord between the leads had some sort of validity.

That's what it seemed like to me. The ridiculous reason for keeping Castle and Beckett apart in season 8 and Castle desperate to win Beckett's love back which made her seem like a witch (why didn't she just explain to Castle why she was keeping her distance?); Jon Huertas and Seamus Dever publicly thanking Fillion for fighting to keep them on the show while Stana Katic and Tamala Jones were being dropped. The reasoning that the decisions were being made for cost cutting made even less sense when you consider that they were going to keep the new character of Hayley. (Nothing against the actress but they might as well have put in a cardboard cutout for all the interest the character brought. She was basically just a prop for Castle to run his own PI agency.)

Season 8 is the season I try to wipe from my mind.  They took away the initial premise of the show, which is that Beckett was the smart tough cop and Castle the fanciful writer who solved the cases by imagining a story around the facts, and isolate Becket while turning Castle into a PI with Hayley and Alexis as his sidekicks. Alexis crossed the line from cute precocious kid to a Mary Sue, one episode taking over the ESL class (which you need specialized training for) and the next being a computer hacking wiz. The relationship between Hayley and Alexis also made me somewhat uncomfortable, why would a 40 year old former spy spend all her free time with a 21 year old?

Alexi Hawley and Terrence Winters were the show runners for season 8. They had been with the show since the first season I think but when I watch their early episodes, even back then they seemed to be just following the signposts and missing the heart of the show.

[shapeshifter]

30 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

19 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

So much happened back then [including the fallout when Stana Katic and Tamala Jones were announced to be out] to make me think the rumors of discord between the leads had some sort of validity.

That's what it seemed like to me. The ridiculous reason for keeping Castle and Beckett apart in season 8 and Castle desperate to win Beckett's love back which made her seem like a witch (why didn't she just explain to Castle why she was keeping her distance?); Jon Huertas and Seamus Dever publicly thanking Fillion for fighting to keep them on the show while Stana Katic and Tamala Jones were being dropped. The reasoning that the decisions were being made for cost cutting made even less sense when you consider that they were going to keep the new character of Hayley. (Nothing against the actress but they might as well have put in a cardboard cutout for all the interest the character brought. She was basically just a prop for Castle to run his own PI agency.)

I was not aware of any of this, but reading this👆 sure sounds like it was yet another example of women not getting equal pay, with Toks Olagundoye (Hayley) probably being even more poorly paid.

[Bort]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

The relationship between Hayley and Alexis also made me somewhat uncomfortable, why would a 40 year old former spy spend all her free time with a 21 year old?

Given that Alexis had always been like a 40 year old in a kid suit, it’s not that far fetched.

[Guest]

15 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Season 8 is the season I try to wipe from my mind.  They took away the initial premise of the show, which is that Beckett was the smart tough cop and Castle the fanciful writer who solved the cases by imagining a story around the facts, and isolate Becket while turning Castle into a PI with Hayley and Alexis as his sidekicks. Alexis crossed the line from cute precocious kid to a Mary Sue, one episode taking over the ESL class (which you need specialized training for) and the next being a computer hacking wiz. The relationship between Hayley and Alexis also made me somewhat uncomfortable, why would a 40 year old former spy spend all her free time with a 21 year old?

 

I think I mostly have.  I have vague memories of certain things like the bad guy breaking into their apartment and then the epilogue that gave no explanation for their survival, but I couldn't tell you a single other plot point other than PI agency (and I couldn't tell you why he started a PI agency) and couldn't even tell you who Hayley is or what she looked like.

My guess is I hated it enough that I've never watched an episode in a repeat the way I've occasionally done other seasons.

The series didn't need a big bad or an overarching mystery. It got much worse when it started focusing on that instead of "case of the week."

[shapeshifter]

27 minutes ago, deaja said:

The series didn't need a big bad or an overarching mystery. It got much worse when it started focusing on that instead of "case of the week."

Totally agree, and not just Castle, but so many series of that time (like The Mentalist) that already had an interesting premise and didn’t need season-long plot arcs with a nemesis that TPTB believed would boost ratings.

In my experience, long plot arcs can discourage viewers who have busy lives.

But I don’t know how the use of plot arcs has changed in the last decade.

[Guest]

They also, to try to keep the whole big mystery going, kept making it more and more unrealistic with more and more twists.

Another show I watched around the same time (Scandal) had the same problem - they added a big overarching thing that totally changed the show and took an interesting premise and completely changed it. That's what Castle did, in my opinion.

[KaveDweller]

On 11/2/2023 at 12:27 AM, WendyCR72 said:

NOT blaming either, but enough was inferred that it could be gleaned that S8 was a matter of circumstance. If I recall, Katic's negotiations were fraught that last time. So, I still think - right or wrong - the leads should have just sucked it up for the good of the show. But their rumored issues were too great, and S8 was the sad result.

I read that Katic and Fillion both made $500,000 an episode by the end (they rightfully had the same salary by then), so yeah, I agree they should have sucked it up for the good of the show. But alas, at least we got 7 good years.

I do think there was some behind the scenes stuff influencing season 8. The writers were not perfect, but they were not dumb enough to think separating Castle and Beckett and giving them new scene partners was the best plan.

And as for the ending....they didn't know if they were going to be renewed or not when they filmed it. At least they made that epilogue just in case so it didn't end with Castle and Beckett bleeding out on the ground! Shows always wrap up best when they know they are ending and have time to do it properly.

[shapeshifter]

32 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

I do think there was some behind the scenes stuff influencing season 8. The writers were not perfect, but they were not dumb enough to think separating Castle and Beckett and giving them new scene partners was the best plan.

Watching that season recently and knowing nothing about the gossip at the time, I thought they must've done the separating of the characters to try to rekindle the audience's "will they or won't they?" excitement about perceived sexual tension between the characters.
Not that it worked or was particularly well done. 

[schnauzergirl]

I haven't watched Season 8 since the show went off the air and cannot remember if Castle had given up writing altogether and was focusing on being a PI.  

[andromeda331]

On 11/1/2023 at 7:27 PM, CheshireCat said:

I may have said so before but I'm much more interested in what was going on with the showrunners than Katic and Fillion. If I understand correctly, Castle was Miller's and Marlowe's pitch and project and yet, they stepped down as showrunners after 6 seasons. Given the turn the show took (the wedding-that-never-was, Castle's abduction/the new "big mystery"), I strongly suspect that ABC wanted the show to go where Miller and Marlowe didn't want to take it. Season 7 still works and still is a better fit than season 8.

S7 looked like someone got cold feet with regards to where the show was headed and thought they needed to go back to S1 with regards to building a new mystery and maybe back to S5 with regards to the Castle/Beckett relationship instead of simply moving forward.
S8 looked like someone thought the show needed to reinvent itself.

Both seldomly work this late into a show and is the reason why the brass should never involve themselves in the creative process (unless they're involved from the beginning, of course).

 

That's what I want to know. Something changed I point more to season eight. It was really off the rails. It's like they suddenly wanted a grittier show. We got stuck with Hayley who I hated and had no purpose except to be a bitch to Castle and show how great she was, Alexis who was suddenly an expert PI and better then Castle (and what happen her going to college), the stupid Lokset and splitting up Beckett and Castle. I rarely watch season eight because I hate it so much. But sometimes I wonder if they set Beckett on purpose to be hated so it would be easier to fire her.  She's the one who decided to leave Castle and not tell him why and make it think it was all his fault, and let their friends think it was all his fault and never tells them it wasn't. There was no way Beckett would do that after everything they had been through by that point. There was no reason except to make her look terrible. 

[KaveDweller]

20 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

But sometimes I wonder if they set Beckett on purpose to be hated so it would be easier to fire her.  She's the one who decided to leave Castle and not tell him why and make it think it was all his fault, and let their friends think it was all his fault and never tells them it wasn't. There was no way Beckett would do that after everything they had been through by that point. There was no reason except to make her look terrible. 

There was also that scene when they were pretending to date other people, and Ryan was telling Beckett how upset he was about their split, and Castle and Beckett showed not a single sign of remorse about it. It did not fit with either of their characters.

On 11/3/2023 at 8:51 PM, shapeshifter said:

Watching that season recently and knowing nothing about the gossip at the time, I thought they must've done the separating of the characters to try to rekindle the audience's "will they or won't they?" excitement about perceived sexual tension between the characters.
Not that it worked or was particularly well done. 

I could have bought that if they broke them up, but then still forced them together all the time. The reduction in screen time makes me believe something behind the scenes was forcing their hand. Maybe that was just availability though. Sometimes actors negotiate time off in later seasons. 

[shapeshifter]

On 11/2/2023 at 12:27 AM, WendyCR72 said:

So much happened back then [including the fallout when Stana Katic and Tamala Jones were announced to be out]

On 11/2/2023 at 7:31 PM, shapeshifter said:

sure sounds like it was yet another example of women not getting equal pay, with Toks Olagundoye (Hayley) probably being even more poorly paid.

On 11/3/2023 at 8:17 PM, KaveDweller said:

read that Katic and Fillion both made $500,000 an episode by the end (they rightfully had the same salary by then),

But if Stana Katic was going to get cut from the show, that’s a lot fewer millions in total for the run of the show for the female lead than the male. 
Of course, it all sounds like more money than anyone needs to me, but I still see a lack of pay equity based on gender. It just seems like it would have been done in a sneaky manner.

Edited November 5, 2023 by shapeshifter

[andromeda331]

8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

But if Stana Katic was going to get cut from the show, that’s a lot fewer millions in total for the run of the show for the female lead than the male. 
Of course, it all sounds like more money than anyone needs to me, but I still see a lack of pay equity based on gender. It just seems like it would have been done in a sneaky manner.

It was done in a sneaky manner. We only found out that Stana was out because it was leaked and it became very clear that Stana wasn't choosing to leave the show. Nope, they thought they could get rid of her and fans wouldn't object. They seemed very shocked that fans objected and they had no choice but to end the show. It's also very convenient when deciding who to cut they cut Beckett and Lanie. Amazing how two women got the cut.

[shapeshifter]

13 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

But if Stana Katic was going to get cut from the show, that’s a lot fewer millions in total for the run of the show for the female lead than the male. 
Of course, it all sounds like more money than anyone needs to me, but I still see a lack of pay equity based on gender. It just seems like it would have been done in a sneaky manner.

5 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

It was done in a sneaky manner. We only found out that Stana was out because it was leaked and it became very clear that Stana wasn't choosing to leave the show. Nope, they thought they could get rid of her and fans wouldn't object. They seemed very shocked that fans objected and they had no choice but to end the show. It's also very convenient when deciding who to cut they cut Beckett and Lanie. Amazing how two women got the cut.

This finally all fits together for me now, including the later season plot arcs. 

— Especially since I had the experience of

Spoiler

being one of about half a dozen only-mature, only-female employees who were "offered" a so-called "optional" Early Retirement Benefit that we could not refuse (because the alternative was the job being axed, and we were not offered positions elsewhere). Eventually someone hired a lawyer and threatened a lawsuit. I'm not sure if they stopped "offering" the deal after that, but it seems like it.

But Stana had plenty of $$$ and plenty of opportunities after the end of Castle.
She's continued to do some work: imdb.com/name/nm1065664

As has Tamala Jones: imdb.com/name/nm0005067 
— albeit not as a lead.😟

Edited November 5, 2023 by shapeshifter

[tessaray]

On 11/4/2023 at 12:26 AM, andromeda331 said:

Something changed I point more to season eight. It was really off the rails. It's like they suddenly wanted a grittier show. We got stuck with Hayley who I hated and had no purpose except to be a bitch to Castle and show how great she was, Alexis who was suddenly an expert PI and better then Castle (and what happen her going to college), the stupid Lokset and splitting up Beckett and Castle. I rarely watch season eight because I hate it so much.

While I think some of it started earlier than S8, I agree.

Also, I kept expecting them to reveal that Hayley's father was super spy James Brolin. 🙂  (When someone really makes no sense as a character, you come up with your own explanations.)  No offense to Toks, who is very attractive and a competent actor but after a few episodes I wished Kelly Nieman was still lurking out there. 

[Bort]

12 minutes ago, tessaray said:

I kept expecting them to reveal that Hayley's father was super spy James Brolin. 🙂  (When someone really makes no sense as a character, you come up with your own explanations.)  No offense to Toks, who is very attractive and a competent actor but after a few episodes I wished Kelly Nieman was still lurking out there. 

Too bad Beckett had gutted Nieman from stem to stern. 

[CheshireCat]

On 11/3/2023 at 10:51 AM, deaja said:

I think I mostly have.  I have vague memories of certain things like the bad guy breaking into their apartment and then the epilogue that gave no explanation for their survival, but I couldn't tell you a single other plot point other than PI agency (and I couldn't tell you why he started a PI agency) and couldn't even tell you who Hayley is or what she looked like.

I'm largely the same. I still have some memory of what Hayley looked like and that she had a British accent (why did they cast an actress with a British accent anyway? What was the purpose of that?) but when I read your post I was like: Hayley? Her name was Hayley? 😛

I remember there was a plot on a cruise ship and Castle showed up in the precinct for their anniversary but that's about it.

 

Quote

The series didn't need a big bad or an overarching mystery. It got much worse when it started focusing on that instead of "case of the week."

I think it was okay for a while but they could have ended it around S4. There really was no need to drag it out. They did do a fairly decent job of continuing that arc but it just wasn't necessary. While I love Beckett's acting in The Belly of the Beast, it's at the same time one of my least favorite episodes.
I think what made the show was how well all characters played off of each other, so whenever there was a focus on one of them, it just wasn't the same.

On 11/3/2023 at 11:27 AM, shapeshifter said:

In my experience, long plot arcs can discourage viewers who have busy lives.

This is one factor but I think long plot arcs only work when they have been thought through from the beginning. I remember reading that the showrunner of The Mentalist had no idea who Red John was and, at one point, was told by the network to figure it out. Reading something like that always makes my jaw drop. These people get paid the big bucks and what do they do? Act like they're writing fanfiction. I find the above completely unprofessional and I wish every network would ask a creator/showrunner to lay out the long arc for them when the creator/showrunner pitches the show.

I'm not sure if Miller and Marlowe had a long arc planned from the beginning but The Mentalist definitely had. And Miller and Marlowe could have been asked by the network as soon as they introduced Beckett's mother's murder. And I honestly don't understand why networks don't ask about it because so often shows take a turn like Castle when the arc is dragged out, so networks should have an interest in having a thought-out arc as well. Depending on how the show goes, they could then ask the showrunner create another arc or end the show once that first arc is finished.

 

On 11/4/2023 at 1:26 AM, andromeda331 said:

That's what I want to know. Something changed I point more to season eight. It was really off the rails. It's like they suddenly wanted a grittier show.

Exactly. The show's tone changed entirely. It's not like they needed any of the PI business to split up Castle and Beckett. There would have been plenty of stories to tell, like give Beckett a promotion (just not Captain, maybe, since that was so unrealistic, too) and have Castle pair with Ryan and/or Esposito more often because of it. Or have Beckett be approached by a political consultant and have her explore a candidacy for city council or something. That way, she could have had a story separate of the precinct while Castle would have stuck with police work and it would have made more sense than the PI thing.

 

Quote

We got stuck with Hayley who I hated and had no purpose except to be a bitch to Castle and show how great she was, Alexis who was suddenly an expert PI and better then Castle (and what happen her going to college),

Not only that but she was suddenly much more immature than she was while she was still a teenager.

This and the above are the reasons why I think that the plot had little to do with the need to split them up and was largely about reinventing the show in the hopes of increasing viewership again. It looked like they wanted to launch a new show without launching it so that they could keep all the syndication benefits and S8 was supposed to be the transition after which they would have gotten rid of Beckett and Lanie who they didn't need for that new version of the show anymore and then we probably would have gotten a Castle PI in S9 with Ryan and Espo assisting every now and then.

 

 

On 11/4/2023 at 9:32 PM, KaveDweller said:

There was also that scene when they were pretending to date other people, and Ryan was telling Beckett how upset he was about their split, and Castle and Beckett showed not a single sign of remorse about it. It did not fit with either of their characters.

I think there was a lot in S8 that didn't fit with the characters and/or erased the growth and development the characters had gone through, Beckett especially. She suddenly was a S3/S4 lone wolf again even though she had changed in S5 and 6.

Although, I think, some of that character change already happened in S7. I mean, after everything that Castle had done for Beckett, the many times that he stuck with her when no one else would and the many ways that he showed her how much she meant to him, she suspects he orchestrated his kidnapping and has to choose to trust him? That never sat right with me and didn't seem to fit what they had previously established.

 

Quote

I could have bought that if they broke them up, but then still forced them together all the time. The reduction in screen time makes me believe something behind the scenes was forcing their hand. Maybe that was just availability though. Sometimes actors negotiate time off in later seasons. 

I think it's very likely that it had to do with availability/pay. Same pay but reduced screen time means a pay increase for the actors but no increase for the studios as new actors are always cheaper.

[shapeshifter]

11 minutes ago, CheshireCat said:

I think it's very likely that it had to do with availability/pay. Same pay but reduced screen time means a pay increase for the actors but no increase for the studios as new actors are always cheaper.

Good point

[freeser]

1 hour ago, CheshireCat said:

Something changed I point more to season eight. It was really off the rails. It's like they suddenly wanted a grittier show.

I can't believe the powers that be didn't know that we tuned in to Castle because it was NOT a gritty show.  We want the Castle who says "I am ruggedly handsome", the Castle who plays cards with fellow writers, the one who dresses as Elvis in Atlantic City and the one who wears a bullet proof vest that says WRITER.  

If we wanted grittier, we would change channels to Law and Order.

[shapeshifter]

9 hours ago, freeser said:

I can't believe the powers that be didn't know that we tuned in to Castle because it was NOT a gritty show.  We want the Castle who says "I am ruggedly handsome", the Castle who plays cards with fellow writers, the one who dresses as Elvis in Atlantic City and the one who wears a bullet proof vest that says WRITER.  

If we wanted grittier, we would change channels to Law and Order.

For sure!
But likely someone tasked with recommending how to increase ratings for an older show took the total number of all gritty show viewers at the time and put them up against the stats of shows labeled Dramedy
— which is not only like comparing:
     oranges🍊🍊with apples 🍎🍎,  

— but the Drama 🍊🍊 category would include some miss-labled Dramedies 🍏🍏  

— so the stats for the Numbers Of Shows With High Ratings would include:

• Drama🍊🍊🍊🍏🍏 
• Dramedy 🍎🍎[Castle]

Edited November 12, 2023 by shapeshifter

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

For sure!
But likely someone tasked with recommending how to increase ratings for an older show took the total number of all gritty show viewers at the time and put them up against the stats of shows labeled Dramedy
— which is not only like comparing:
     🍊🍊with apples 🍎🍎,  

— but the Drama 🍊🍊 category would include some miss-labled Dramedies 🍏🍏  

— so the stats for the Numbers Of Shows With High Ratings would include:

• Drama🍊🍊🍊🍏🍏 
• Dramedy 🍎🍎[Castle]

It's either that or they just wanted to make it a gritter show. A lot of idiots decide to change what their show is about because it's what they want or want to direct/produce/write and get shocked when it's canceled.

[WendyCR72]

16 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

I remember reading that the showrunner of The Mentalist had no idea who Red John was and, at one point, was told by the network to figure it out.

Comparatively, I recall reading that TPTB of Bones also wanted to stretch the mystery of Brennan's mother (yes, big similarities!) over a season, but Fox allegedly nixed it. So it was told all in the S1 finale, "The Woman In Limbo", and I think the show was better for it.

Especially since - later on - the show did have a series of "big bads" with diminishing returns the more it was used. (For instance, the Gravedigger arc was very good, but then there was "Gorgomon" [which was completely derailed by the 2008 Writers' Strike], then the dude that killed poor Vincent Nigel-Murray [and said Gravedigger!], and then, the absolute worst, Christopher Pelant.)

I only wish the network had stepped in post Gravedigger.

The point being, whether Castle, Bones, or The Mentalist, so many shows fall into the "big bad" trap - and usually have no plan or way to dig the shows out from under them.