S05.E18: Godspeed

[adora721]

20 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

But what I don't get is if as you pointed out, that Barry raises his voice when he's upset to EVERYONE

Actually, I don't believe Barry has yelled or raised his voice in anger at everyone. Specifically, he hasn't done so to Cecile or Caitlin.  Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Examples of valid opportunities for him to raise his voice in anger at Caity, but he didn't, are below:

Spoiler

1.       Watch Barry not get angry or yell at Caitlin when he finds out she kept part of the Philosopher’s Stone: https://youtu.be/7eXewWWk2RU

2.       Watch Barry not get angry or yell at Caitlin when she throws his mother’s death in his face: https://youtu.be/iCZ-9sR9ybI

3.       Watch Barry not get angry or yell at Caitlin when trying to egg her on to kill him: https://youtu.be/yh4nqakjE-g

4.       Watch Barry not get angry or yell at future KF/Caitlin when she confesses to working with Savitar to help murder Iris: https://youtu.be/VmVSjSHP8Ko

5.       Watch Barry raise his voice (but not in anger) to tell her “This isn’t you”, when KF stabs him a second time in the leg: https://youtu.be/98PqD_LFhLc

6.       Watch Barry yell for her to “Stop”, but not be angry, when KF tries to murder him, Julian, Cisco, and HR: https://youtu.be/r-eIhPphfnA

7.       Watch Barry not get angry or yell at Caitlin after Wally gets sucked into the speed force, which devastates Joe and Iris, but he’s totally OK with Caitlin being culpable for it: https://youtu.be/Yjrp013bGwM

8.       Watch Barry almost raise his voice a little, but not in anger, when Caitlin was about to tell EoWells that Barry knows the truth about him: https://youtu.be/rvlkmNmGqco

9. Watch Barry not yell or get angry when Caitlin spoils their plan to defeat DeVoe, which almost gets Cynthia killed: https://youtu.be/eFhe2M6F8iQ

Edited April 20, 2019 by adora721

[phoenics]

6 hours ago, adora721 said:

Actually, I don't believe Barry has yelled or raised his voice in anger at everyone. Specifically, he hasn't done so to Cecile or Caitlin.  Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Examples of valid opportunities for him to raise his voice in anger at Caity, but didn't, are below:

  Reveal spoiler

1.       Watch Barry not get angry or yell at Caitlin when he finds out she kept part of the Philosopher’s Stone: https://youtu.be/7eXewWWk2RU

2.       Watch Barry not get angry or yell at Caitlin when she throws his mother’s death in his face: https://youtu.be/iCZ-9sR9ybI

3.       Watch Barry not get angry or yell at Caitlin when trying egg her on to kill him: https://youtu.be/yh4nqakjE-g

4.       Watch Barry not get angry or yell at future KF/Caitlin when she confesses to working with Savitar to help murder Iris: https://youtu.be/VmVSjSHP8Ko

5.       Watch Barry raise his voice (but not in anger) to tell her “This isn’t you”, when KF stabs him a second time in the leg: https://youtu.be/98PqD_LFhLc

6.       Watch Barry yell for her to “Stop”, but not be angry, when KF tries to murder him, Julian, Cisco, and HR: https://youtu.be/r-eIhPphfnA

7.       Watch Barry not get angry or yell at Caitlin after Wally gets sucked into the speed force, which devastates Joe and Iris, but he’s totally OK with Caitlin being culpable for it: https://youtu.be/Yjrp013bGwM

8.       Watch Barry almost raise his voice a little, but not in anger, when Caitlin was about to tell EoWells that Barry knows the truth about him: https://youtu.be/rvlkmNmGqco

Thank you for the receipts.

That's even more damning and more proof of what I was saying.  I'll say one last thing.  Amazing how angry Barry got at Wally for his unintentional mistake of not revealing the Savitar visions (which Wally didn't understand at the time and clearly wasn't acting that way to intentionally harm anyone).  What makes this so jarring also is that he doesn't yell at Caitlin who kept a piece of the sorcerer's stone IN THE SAME EPISODE.  

Come on - this stuff is so in your face it's just impossible to ignore!

Now - he's over the top angry at Nora.  Enough to basically disown her - without Iris' knowledge.  Yes Barry has every right to be really angry - but that's his FAMILY.

I've seen Barry yell at Joe before.  So that's Joe, Wally and Nora (may need to double check if he yelled).  

The only other person besides Thawne that I've seen Barry get so angry he's yelling with are other villains.  The only time he got angry at Oliver was when he was under the influence of Rainbow Rider.  Same with Eddie.  

So the ones getting yelled at are Joe, Wally, Nora (?) and now Iris.  Perhaps he only yells at family...

Or...  <massive side eye>

Tell me again this has nothing to do with race.  Sure, we can sit here and say well that's his family - you tend to yell more at family - but it's still ugly as hell and ... problematic.

Also - the one time Barry could have yelled at a white character (Harry) when he stole his speed, he didn't.  Joe went after Harry, punched him out and then had to suffer Caitlin yelling at him to stop.  SMFH - Joe wasn't even allowed legitimate anger for the man who took Barry's speed, making him too slow to stop Iris getting shanked in the shoulder with a shard of glass.  Thank goodness he ignored her and tossed Harry in the pipeline like he deserved.

See a pattern?  I do!

The writers need to check themselves.

Maybe this is unconscious.  Maybe not.  But having Barry only yell at white characters in anger when they are villains, but he freely yells at the black characters that play his family IS problematic - especially if no one calls out his yelling at family.

Especially a family full of black folks - I wish a white boy WOULD yell at my father (who happened to raise him).  LMAO the thought is crazy. 

And it's also telling that when the black characters get angry - a white character is close by to yell at them to stop.

I know folks are like - but that's not really racist, is it?  Well consider it white privilege then.  At the crux of white privilege is the benefit of the doubt.  And the writers - through Barry - extend every character except the characters of color - the benefit of the doubt when they do something "wrong" (or in the case with some characters of color, even when they DON'T do anything wrong).

Edited April 20, 2019 by phoenics

[adora721]

31 minutes ago, phoenics said:

So the ones getting yelled at are Joe, Wally, Nora (?) and now Iris.  Perhaps he only yells at family...

Don't forget Barry yelled in anger at Cisco for making the cold gun. 

ETA: He's yelled at Ralph in anger, too.

Like I said, Barry's yelled in anger at everyone except Cecile and Caitlin. There's still time for him to add Cecile to that list, but I doubt he'll ever get angry wth Teflon Cait.

Edited April 20, 2019 by adora721

[phoenics]

1 minute ago, adora721 said:

Don't forget Barry yelled in anger at Cisco for making the cold gun. 

Damn - that's right.  Welp - that breaks my family excuse.

[BeautifulFlower]

Of course people are only focusing on Iris being angry at Sherloque and ignoring it was the WHOLE team.

I want to talk about that scene. I think some people didn't understand it. I rewatched it. The team got mad after Sherloque revealed that he was suspicious of Nora since he arrived. He was silent about his suspicions. Did Iris know that? No, so she was allowed to be mad too.

I've seen "She has no right to be mad at sherloque. She tried to stop the investigation and told him to leave Nora alone."

Well Iris caught him in 5x11 and asked him for a reason to his investigation. He said nothing. From her perspective, all she saw was this man being nosy for no reason bothering her injured daughter. What was Iris suppose to do? Tell him "Okay, since you didn't give me a reason, I'll let it go and you can continue to harass my daughter." If he wasn't gonna give a reason, I would tell him to leave my child alone too.

[Lady Calypso]

Time to move on from the race discussion. Agree to disagree and get back to the episode at hand. 

[Cthulhudrew]

I don't understand how Barry will "know" if Nora tries to time travel again. He's been completely oblivious to her traveling back and forth via the Speed Force up to this point.

[Brinny]

I just had a chance to catch the episode (I've been immersed in NHL playoffs) and it was, you know, okay. 

It was A LOT of Nora. I don't mind Nora, even though she can be grating sometimes. And I like JPK. I just don't know why we needed an entire episode devoted to Nora, though. Surely, if they didn't want to do a straight up A and B storyline, they could have at least done flashes of the future and still had scenes in the present, other than just essentially bookending it, right? Or stretched everything over 2 episodes if there too much story to do both? Was Grant getting married again? I don't understand.

Keeping on the topic of Nora, there's a lot of discussion of her being 25 and acting immature, but, I'm pretty sure she actually has to be a couple of years older than that. The Crisis happens in 2024 (so sayeth the paper) and when Nora is telling Barry that he disappears and never returns, she says that he leaves when she's a few years old and she doesn't remember him. So, if this Nora is from 2049, she's at least 27-28. Apparently, a really young 27-28.*

Although, I didn't get the impression that she lived with Iris? Future Iris seemed surprised to see her at the loft when they had their fight. My guess is they didn't/couldn't build another set, so having her go to Iris' home seemed easiest. (Disclaimer that I was also legit falling asleep while watching the episode and maybe I missed something.)

Just a final point on the whole Nora story: I always thought they were leading up to having a parallel drawn between Nora growing up feeling like she was different and then finding out she had her powers supressed to her being gay. Kind of like how the X-Men comics originally were. Don't get me wrong. I kind of liked that there hasn't been a big deal (or any deal, really) about Nora's sexuality, but it just seemed as though they'd been leaning that way. 

I don't know. Everything about this season has felt kind of "off". 

*Unless they're already retconning this so that he leaves when she's a baby? Because, let's say, that a) the Crisis does happen as stated in 2024; b) Nora was about 3 years old when Barry disappears; and c) Nora has managed to not erase herself from the timeline. All that would mean that Iris and Barry would need to stop practicing making Nora and actually get on it pretty soon. We'll be in 2020 next year, factoring in 10 months for the length of pregnancy and we're looking into the next year or two of the show where there needs to be a West-Allen baby. 

[Trini]

5 hours ago, Brinny said:

Although, I didn't get the impression that she lived with Iris? Future Iris seemed surprised to see her at the loft when they had their fight. My guess is they didn't/couldn't build another set, so having her go to Iris' home seemed easiest. (Disclaimer that I was also legit falling asleep while watching the episode and maybe I missed something.)

Yeah, it was easier for them to set the scene at the loft; I don't think Nora still lives with Iris, either.

5 hours ago, Brinny said:

*Unless they're already retconning this so that he leaves when she's a baby?

They purposely left themselves wiggle room so that they're not tied down to a date for her birth. But either way, I think either Nora's time traveling this season, or the Crisis next season will change her birthdate anyway.

[Trini]

Re-watch thoughts:

There really must be some sort of stipulation to use as many cast members as possible - even if it's one line in a short scene - because this was really a West-Allen family plot (but mostly Nora) from start to end, and it was just odd that everyone else was just standing around as spectators.

This episode seems to be showing that all West-Allens made questionable decisions that have affected their family. The questions is how will they be able rectify those mistakes, and become stronger going forward?

(Future) Iris shouldn't have kept secret Nora's powers or Barry's alter-ego as The Flash from Nora. The overprotectiveness and lies drove Nora to trust someone dangerous. Nora and (present) Iris' relationship has repaired with Nora forgiving her mother and understanding her point of view. And I assume with all that has happened, Iris will make different choices in the future with Nora.

Nora shouldn't have chosen a criminal as her mentor and lied to her family. (Not to mention all the messing with the timelines she's been doing.) She never went back to clear the air, etc., with her mother, or attempted to get her family/friends side of the story. Understandable, she felt betrayed; but I still find it very hard to believe that Eobard Thawne was her only option. She's been cordial to everyone to everyone on Team Flash in the present, so she mustn't have hard feelings toward their future versions, I would think.

Barry is clearly letting his emotions get the better of him; though it's also kind of understandable, he tends to get betrayed every year by someone on the team. This time it hurts extra hard because it's his own daughter, being manipulated by his mortal enemy.

Now, Nora is grown and isn't even supposed to be in 2019 anyway, so her getting booted to the future wasn't a problem for me by itself. The way Barry did it is the issue for me. I think he should have taken some time to cool down and get all the information. At least about what Nora knows about Thawne and what he has had her do, because he's the real threat here. (Though I can see how he wouldn't want to talk with Nora since she's been lying this whole time.) He took Nora back in anger without discussing it with Iris or Nora.

West-Allen family drama is one of the main ongoing stories this season, so I don't mind the conflict, and I'm here to see how it all shakes out. Hopefully with the family as a stronger unit (... and a twin brother).

Edited April 22, 2019 by Trini

[Trini]

Re-watch thoughts, Part 2:

I'm just happy they finally did a flashback/forward episode to show Nora's backstory. Again, a little late, though. Maybe in addition to placing this episode earlier, they could have had smaller flashback before this episode.

I think they gave a reasonable explanation as to why Nora first started working with Thawne. Still think it's dumb that he was her "only" option after that, though.

So, there haven't been any other speedsters around since the 'Red Skies Crisis'? If they kill off Wally, I swear.... 😠

Lia was cool; it sucks that they killed her off just to further Nora's story.

So glad we got to see Future Iris. I wish we had seen a few other future versions of the cast, too. Nice that in 30 years, Iris has grown her own media empire!

So many questions about Thawne. Apparently he got imprisoned about 15 years before in the flashback, but Barry (and other speedsters?) were gone by then, so who caught him? How?? Why was he in that time period? I feel like the show is going to be super vague about the answers, or give no answers at all.

Did y'all see the little smile Thawne gave before he agreed to help Nora? He was loving this unexpected opportunity to screw over Barry again.

I feel like the torturing Warden was there so Thawne has someone to kill when he escapes. (Also corrupt prison wardens seem to be a recurring DC comics theme.)

I know they aren't that precious with comic canon, but using Godspeed for just one episode is a huge waste. One of the few times I'm hoping for a retcon. They spent all that money for the costume, the CG version of character, and BD Wong to voice him, so he can come back somehow, right?

[BeautifulFlower]

I've been rewatching too.

There has to be a reason they put in the line of Nora telling Thawne how there's basically nothing about him in the Flash museum other than he's a Flash villain. All Nora had to do was say she learned about him from the museum. Why bring up Thawne basically being treated like any other villain? Also, I swear Thawne looked like he was bothered by. I feel like that's probably when Thawne decided to manipulate Nora. Let's be honest, we all know he is.

It has to be a reason. Why else have Nora tell him that?

Edited April 22, 2019 by BeautifulFlower
added word

[tessaray]

I was late watching this one.  I don't know if it was in Judalina Neira and Kelly Wheeler's script or if it's on the new female director checklist but no matter, I always appreciate scenes with a bit of girl power, especially two bff/colleagues solving crime with science.  (And hopefully when they are done messing around with timelines, Lia will still be alive.) 

[TV Anonymous]

So two things I learned about 2049. In the future, visitors to a museum can just take away museum artifact without any security measure in place. And I am sad to learn that in 2049 there is still capital punishment in the United States.

[Trini]

On 4/22/2019 at 8:44 AM, BeautifulFlower said:

There has to be a reason they put in the line of Nora telling Thawne how there's basically nothing about him in the Flash museum other than he's a Flash villain. All Nora had to do was say she learned about him from the museum. Why bring up Thawne basically being treated like any other villain? Also, I swear Thawne looked like he was bothered by. I feel like that's probably when Thawne decided to manipulate Nora. Let's be honest, we all know he is. 

It has to be a reason. Why else have Nora tell him that?

LOL, Eobard is not as petty as Barry, but I can see him being proud to be The Flash's greatest foe. Watch him get out and do more stuff to get his own wing at the museum!

Edited April 23, 2019 by Trini
added dropped word

[BeautifulFlower]

4 hours ago, Trini said:

LOL, Eobard is not as petty as Barry, but I can see him being proud to be The Flash's greatest foe. Watch him get out and do more stuff to get his wing at the museum!

Lol, true. I just studied his face and he really looked bothered by it.

[Cekrypton1]

Catching up on eps due to spring break. I liked this one a lot. I can see how a confused  Nora, with no knowledge of any of her father's history would initially turn to Thawne, though Barry's point about going back after learning about Thawne is valid. I can see how Thawne would be a different person to Nora than he is to Barry, and how she would still think him a friend even after learning about him. 

TC is best on this show as Eobard. And I don't know why this is, but every time as Thawne he uses the "Run, [speedster], Run!" line it gives me a thrill.