Les Misérables (2018) - General Discussion

[Diablo]

4 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Now please don't anyone tell me I don't like this because I don't understand that "times were different then."  While living in England a few years ago, I took an adult course in 19th Century Literature at Oxford. I've always loved the great English novels of that period, we read Dickens, Hardy, the Brontes, and Elliot. I loved the Russians we covered and Tolstoy became my favorite. But when we got to the French we read some Zola and Balzac and they weren't exactly my favorites.  Thank heavens we didn't have to read this, because, at least in this version,  I hate it.

I thought Fantine was short sighted to have her teeth pulled just before turning to prostitution, but then she was short sighted all along, the most naïve courtesan ever, so I guessed it was in character.  But Valjean wounding himself to show how tough he was?  In a time without penicillin or tetanus shots?  Why?  It didn't make the thugs run away, he still had to fight them. 

Did he not understand that Cosette wanted to be like the other girls with friends, parties and romance?  Why did he ever think she would be happy playing the piano by herself  forever?  Of course, Hugo's  young prostitute is more interesting and likeable than the young virgin, as it is often so in literature and film, but it's stretched to the limit here with Cosette not only boring, but spoiled and petulant.

I did like Marius as played by Josh O'Connor, who I  know from "The Durrells in Corfu."  He brings a twinkle of humor to his rolls, but I'm wondering if Hugo had that in mind or it's just the actor?

How much of this is Andrew Davies?  I loved his adaptation of "Little Dorrit" and "Bleak House," but not this.

Re: Valjean wounding himself: in reality, the poker would probably have resulted in a cauterized, closed wound, like branding cattle or like they used to do for amputees to seal the wound. That said, Hugo is often criticized for his sometimes melodramatic characterization and for relying on deus ex machina and unlikely coincidences all over the place.

Re: Cosette, she's much more resigned in the novel than in this series. I guess they tried to give her a bit more personality here. The scene where he takes her to see the convicts is not in the book at all, and neither is her petulant/spoiled reaction. He also doesn't tell her about Fantine like in the series, to my memory. You might take issue with book Cosette as well, for being unrealistically chaste and lacking any sense of impetus, understandably. I believe she's afraid of Marius at first. 

1 hour ago, springbarb said:

He had saved a ton of money from his time as factory owner--we saw him dig some of it up. Presumably after he had the cash in hand, he rented the house. He probably continued to go outside the convent during his years working there--or, at least, got a newspaper or however people rented/found lodgings back then.

I've read the book, but it's been many, many years. Can someone remind me whether Javert remained THIS focused on Valjean throughout those years? My impression of him was more that Valjean haunted him, but not to the point that he was constantly brooding in his office and telling his subordinates that he WILL get that man! More like, he focused on progressing through his career, but kept an ear to the ground about Valjean. Just in case.

I don't remember Javert being this fixated, year after year, on Valjean, but haunted by his slipping through his fingers. His obsession only gets activated when coincidences cause them to cross paths. It's like being happy going about your life after a breakup, and then having all your old hurts and resentments stirred up when you happen to bump into your ex. 

[Tardislass]

Javert=Captain Ahab of Moby Dick, always looking for the one who got away. And Davies is keen to show that Javert is successful anyway as he was commended by the city and won awards. It makes it that much harder for him to see Valjean free.

As for religiosity, Hugo himself lived at a time where rational thought was valued but he grew up amongst Catholics-I believe his mother was practicing and felt strongly towards them. I believe his son was upset that Hugo made the priests and nuns so saintly. As for Davies, in order to make it appeal to a wide audience nowadays, programs usually underplay the religion aspect. I think it still works here as many people would probably have problems with how the good in the book are saints and the evil are well evil. I think it also stems from not really knowing the poor. Victor Hugo grew up a lot like Marius, born into the wealthy classes and lived amongst them, so his poverty is more the idealized version.

To me the first act in Les Mis is always the most exciting because while dumb, Fontine is more spirited than her daughter though I liked Cosette as a child.

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, Diablo said:

You might take issue with book Cosette as well, for being unrealistically chaste and lacking any sense of impetus, understandably. I believe she's afraid of Marius at first. 

No, I wouldn't mind that at all,  knowing how much chastity is emphasized in the Catholic church.  I would expect that, as well as passive behavior, in a girl of that period.  What I disliked was Cosette being sassy and petulant with Valjean which seemed more like a contemporary teen.

From what those of you who have read the book are telling me, it's not Victor Hugo I dislike but Andrew Davies's attempts to make it appeal to a wide audience.  I don't like such changes and I wonder if the "updating" really gets a wider audience. I would doubt that those who simply must have spunky, assertive heroines are even watching period dramas.

Religion was a huge part of life in the 19th century and trying to pretend it wasn't,  because today's reader is simply too delicate to hear about  it,  only makes the whole story pointless.  It as bad as  the TV adaptations of great novels in 1950's that tried to leave out the sex.

[screenaddict]

Every time I get to this point in the story, I find myself saying the same thing: Marius, you picked the wrong girl. Eponine > Cosette. Every time.

[Tom Holmberg]

Unfortunately, we didn't get much Gavroche (sassy but ultimately good).  They didn't even point out that those two little kids he was helping were (unknown to Gavroche) his brothers.  There's a lot more of him in the book. And no elephant. :-(

Edited May 13, 2019 by Tom Holmberg

[Tardislass]

We come to the incredibly dull romance of Cosette and Marius who get together because of lust. Really both of them are dull together.  As for Eponine, at least the musical has a nice little death song between her and Marius, but in reality he could care less about her-at least Davies was more true to the novel. I read that as a Hugo class divider-upper and lower class can't fall in love. I wonder if we will ever see Eponine's sister again and of course her father escaped jail while her mother rots there-another Hugo decision?

Dominic West for me is the glue holding this together- Just fantastic work. And I do love the tiny shade Toussaint threw at Cosette talking matter of fact about how they could be killed. You go girl. Enjolras continues to disappoint me as he's about as charismatic as dishwater and the Jack Black twin is highly distracting. I actually felt a bit sorry for Marius' uncle.The little guy playing Gavroche is my spirit animal and is exactly how I pictured him strutting around. Sadly, Davies has proven he can't write the character of Javert as he has a quality actor but almost no indication of his thoughts or feelings. Still I'll be sad to see the last episode. Guess I will have to search out more of Mr. West's works.

[JudyObscure]

8 hours ago, screenaddict said:

Eponine > Cosette

40 minutes ago, Tardislass said:

We come to the incredibly dull romance of Cosette and Marius who get together because of lust.

Without lust it's all just so much platonic friendship.  Marius and Cosette took one look and fell in love, Eponine took one look and fell in love.  Life is full of love triangles and it's always sad for the loser but that doesn't make the loser the best person. Eponine lied to Marius about the letter until she was dying -- and I do like her and loved her romantic death scene.  Marius was oblivious to her feelings until the end -- and that's also part of human nature. 

I really liked this episode with so much finally coming together.

I may be the only one but I think that wanted poster looks more like Javert than Valjean.

50 minutes ago, Tardislass said:

Guess I will have to search out more of Mr. West's works.

He and Ruth Wilson starred in, "The Affair" a Showtime series.  I only had Showtime the first season, but I found it mesmerizing because of those two fine actors.

[springbarb]

In one little speech, the worker at the cafe showed more charisma than Enjolras. It's such a disappointment. I do like the focus Grantaire is getting; I've always had a soft spot for him.

The treatment of Javert is horrific. Javert would never, ever be like, "Whatever!" about the student uprising because of Valjean. He cares about the rule of law--THAT is his focus. Valjean is an insult to him because of that, but a bunch of people rising up in the streets is ALSO a threat to that.

[jschoolgirl]

The old man that died at the end while waving the flag was Marius's grandfather, right?

[Llywela]

2 minutes ago, jschoolgirl said:

The old man that died at the end while waving the flag was Marius's grandfather, right?

No, Marius's grandfather is a staunch monarchist who would probably die of horror at the thought that you might think he would ever join a bunch of anarchist rebels! The guy who died at the barricade was just a Random Extra Rebel, there to lend additional pathos to the scene. Also because there weren't enough regulars to man the barricade, so a bunch of Guest Characters got drafted in for the event.

[Diablo]

I think the musical really skewed people's perception of the love triangle between Marius, Cosette, and Eponine. Eponine and Marius are just not a fit at all.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Diablo

[Tardislass]

4 hours ago, Llywela said:

No, Marius's grandfather is a staunch monarchist who would probably die of horror at the thought that you might think he would ever join a bunch of anarchist rebels! The guy who died at the barricade was just a Random Extra Rebel, there to lend additional pathos to the scene. Also because there weren't enough regulars to man the barricade, so a bunch of Guest Characters got drafted in for the event.

He was the man who told Marius about his father and was a friend of his dad. I believe he's in the book as well. And yes, bad writing for Javert and Enjolras. As for Eponine, I imagine growing up in that family one would have to be a bit unbalanced. It's a shame we don't see her sister as Gavroche seems the most adult of them all and is such a cutie.  Sadly, this Javert is falling into Russell Crowe territory. Perhaps the big scene next week with Javert and Valjean will move him up. The last time we were in Paris we saw the spot where Javert 

Spoiler

jumps into the Seine.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Tardislass

[Snow Apple]

2 hours ago, Diablo said:

I think the musical really skewed people's perception of the love triangle between Marius, Cosette, and Eponine. Eponine and Marius are just not a fit at all.

I saw the musical when I was 19 or 20 and of course loved Eponine. She was always played by cute actresses and was spunky and wore jaunty hats to match her boho outfits. She was the perfect romantic tragic figure.

So imagine my surprise and disappointment to read the book and she was described with missing teeth and acted rather crude. Still a tragic figure but Les Miserable is not a romance novel and I can't imagine book Marius feeling anything but pity for her. Not even friendship like in the musical.

Yes indeed, the musical messed a lot of us up by playing up that "triangle."

Edited May 13, 2019 by Snow Apple

[Tardislass]

1 hour ago, Snow Apple said:

I saw the musical when I was 19 or 20 and of course loved Eponine. She was always played by cute actresses and was spunky and wore jaunty hats to match her boho outfits. She was the perfect romantic tragic figure.

So imagine my surprise and disappointment to read the book and she was described with missing teeth and acted rather crude. Still a tragic figure but Les Miserable is not a romance novel and I can't imagine book Marius feeling anything but pity for her. Not even friendship like in the musical.

Yes indeed, the musical messed a lot of us up by playing up that "triangle."

The musical made light about most of the Thenardiers. They were played by some great comic actors and seemed almost fun-which is the exact opposite of their true nature. But most musicals want to be uplifting-except of course Blood Brothers-talk about depressing. IMO, Les Mis would have been fine without the romance and just telling of the plight of the poor and the student uprising. But I admit to humming "A little drop of rain" when Eponine died. 

[Tom Holmberg]

23 hours ago, Tardislass said:

Guess I will have to search out more of Mr. West's works.

I'll assume you've seen "The Wire", the best TV drama series ever.

[Tom Holmberg]

19 hours ago, jschoolgirl said:

The old man that died at the end while waving the flag was Marius's grandfather, right?

That was Mabeuf, a former revolutionary regicide, who after encountering the Bishop becomes a churchwarden (left out of this version).  He's the one who told Marius about his father in an earlier episode.  Mabeuf returns to his republican roots on the barricade.

[jschoolgirl]

5 hours ago, Tom Holmberg said:

That was Mabeuf, a former revolutionary regicide, who after encountering the Bishop becomes a churchwarden (left out of this version).  He's the one who told Marius about his father in an earlier episode.  Mabeuf returns to his republican roots on the barricade.

OK. I knew the grandfather was a staunch monarchist and thought it odd he'd show up at the barricade, but I knew we'd seen him before.

[Tom Holmberg]

1 hour ago, jschoolgirl said:

I knew we'd seen him before.

In the book they have a great scene, which should have been in the series, where one of Thednardier's gang tries to mug Valjean.  Valjean pulls a Bishop and gives the thief his wallet, telling him he should now go straight.  When the thief leaves, Gavroche picks his pocket and steals the wallet, which he then anonymously passes on to Mabeuf, who he had earlier learned was in financial need.

[KariLois]

On 5/6/2019 at 12:21 PM, Diablo said:

Re: Valjean wounding himself: in reality, the poker would probably have resulted in a cauterized, closed wound, like branding cattle or like they used to do for amputees to seal the wound. That said, Hugo is often criticized for his sometimes melodramatic characterization and for relying on deus ex machina and unlikely coincidences all over the place.

Re: Cosette, she's much more resigned in the novel than in this series. I guess they tried to give her a bit more personality here. The scene where he takes her to see the convicts is not in the book at all, and neither is her petulant/spoiled reaction. He also doesn't tell her about Fantine like in the series, to my memory. You might take issue with book Cosette as well, for being unrealistically chaste and lacking any sense of impetus, understandably. I believe she's afraid of Marius at first. 

I don't remember Javert being this fixated, year after year, on Valjean, but haunted by his slipping through his fingers. His obsession only gets activated when coincidences cause them to cross paths. It's like being happy going about your life after a breakup, and then having all your old hurts and resentments stirred up when you happen to bump into your ex. 

Actually the scene where Cosette sees convicts is accidental, not a field trip.  Her reaction in the book is just as disgusting as in this series and makes Valjean sad but aware he can never tell her the truth about his past.  Cosette always needed a good smack in the moments of the book and in this one, but today, Valjean would have made it a teachable moment about compassion, which I still believe he should have.

[KariLois]

On 4/29/2019 at 2:05 PM, CCTC said:

That was such a horrible scene on how she she had no mental or emotional solace on her last breath (I am also mainly familiar with the musical - is that how it plays out in the novel?).  I know Javert often does not (or ever?) have shades of gray, and would be easy to be one note, but he is more tedious to watch than love to hate watch.  Compare that to the acting of the actors playing the Thenardiers who make there characters much more compelling to watch.

The neighbor lady who reported their location to Javert was a little creepy.  They have done a good job with some of the small parts.  

Sadly, that is exactly how it plays out in the novel.

[Diablo]

18 hours ago, KariLois said:

Actually the scene where Cosette sees convicts is accidental, not a field trip.  Her reaction in the book is just as disgusting as in this series and makes Valjean sad but aware he can never tell her the truth about his past.  Cosette always needed a good smack in the moments of the book and in this one, but today, Valjean would have made it a teachable moment about compassion, which I still believe he should have.

Thanks. For some reason, I have no recollection of this scene in the novel at all. I guess I'll have to reread it at some point. 

[Rhetorica]

Nicely done.  Between the book or the musical, I'll always take the musical.  Javert's suicide song explained so well why he was obsessed with 64201. The lyrics described exactly his self righteousness. 

[Dr.OO7]

Excellent ending to an excellent miniseries. While it wasn't 100%, I like how much it adhered to the book.

But incredibly haunting and tear-jerking too. Why was the final scene of those two little boys begging? To show that the cycle of misery just keeps going on? That was a REALLY sad scene.

[Tom Holmberg]

8 hours ago, Camille said:

Why was the final scene of those two little boys begging?

Those were Gavroche's little brothers who he had helped earlier.  There's much more of Gavroche and them in the book. 

The ending makes Marius come out looking a little better and shortens the time of Valjean's death (actually the series makes his death somewhat inexplicable).

[Tardislass]

6 hours ago, Tom Holmberg said:

Those were Gavroche's little brothers who he had helped earlier.  There's much more of Gavroche and them in the book. 

The ending makes Marius come out looking a little better and shortens the time of Valjean's death (actually the series makes his death somewhat inexplicable).

Wandering around in neck high sewer water can be deadly. Also. Valjean was supposed to be old by then. Remember he had been in prison for 10 years prior to the book. Unfortunately, no one was made to look older in this series.

[Tom Holmberg]

5 minutes ago, Tardislass said:

Wandering around in neck high sewer water can be deadly.

In the book Marius reluctantly allows Valjean to visit with Cosette but only once a week in a unfurnished basement room.  Marius uses various means to make Valjean's visits less frequent until he doesn't come at all.  In the series they make it look like he was dying six weeks after the wedding.

[KariLois]

On 5/20/2019 at 2:50 PM, Tom Holmberg said:

In the book Marius reluctantly allows Valjean to visit with Cosette but only once a week in a unfurnished basement room.  Marius uses various means to make Valjean's visits less frequent until he doesn't come at all.  In the series they make it look like he was dying six weeks after the wedding.

I think that Valjean dies of a broken heart from losing Cosette.  In the book he is fiercely devoted to her and never wants to lose her.

[Tom Holmberg]

1 minute ago, KariLois said:

I think that Valjean dies of a broken heart from losing Cosette.  In the book he is fiercely devoted to her and never wants to lose her.

In the book I believe he dies of a "fever". I also think in the book that they discuss the cholera epidemics plaguing Paris. But I think you're right that Marius' treatment of him and being estranged from Cosette is a factor in his death.

[KariLois]

7 hours ago, Tom Holmberg said:

In the book I believe he dies of a "fever". I also think in the book that they discuss the cholera epidemics plaguing Paris. But I think you're right that Marius' treatment of him and being estranged from Cosette is a factor in his death.

I hate hate to think of Jean Valjean dying of cholera, but you are most likely right.  Poor guy, just trying to be good dad.

[CCTC]

Mademoiselle Thenardier is never really seen again the last third of this series (in the musical I believe she shows up with her husband at the end reprising their duet).  I am trying to think if she is seen again after being in jail.  Does she basically disappear from the book like that as well?