Like Spy vs. Spy but Sexual: the Vauseman Thread

[bravelittletoaster]

We had one at TWoP, and I know I'm not the only one on this roller coaster... Should be a lot to discuss / speculate on going into season three. Exactly how pissed is Alex going to be to see Piper next?

[SaabStory]

I'm totally in.  I so like the episodes better with a little Piper and Alex.

[rozen]

It would be nice, for once, for Piper to have the leg up in their relationship. Alex has screwed her over at every turn, and gotten away with it with an earnest pouty face and sometimes makeup sex. I kind of want Piper to gloat in Alex's face a little.

[bravelittletoaster]

I'd say she's got the leg up at the moment. Everything she's always said about Alex: that she has a hold on her, that she's manipulative, that she's the wolf to Piper's lamb...I'd say turning her in and landing her back in prison turns the tide towards Piper. Though I have no idea how Alex will respond.

As I mentioned in another thread, I'm under no delusion that they're going to be enjoying quiet domesticity at Litchfield. Something will come between them, and I'm wondering if it will be that big batch of heroin Nicky hid in the grate. I hope not though. Much as I love Alex and kind of don't care that she has a checkered past, I do think it would change my opinion of her if she started dealing that heroin in prison.

It's like the proverbial gun shown in Act 1, though. Hard to imagine it's not going to go off.

Edited June 16, 2014 by bravelittletoaster

[questionfear]

I'd say she's got the leg up at the moment. Everything she's always said about Alex: that she has a hold on her, that she's manipulative, that she's the wolf to Piper's lamb...I'd say turning her in and landing her back in prison turns the tide towards Piper. Though I have no idea how Alex will respond.

As I mentioned in another thread, I'm under no delusion that they're going to be enjoying quiet domesticity at Litchfield. Something will come between them, and I'm wondering if it will be that big batch of heroin Nicky hid in the grate. I hope not though. Much as I love Alex and kind of don't care that she has a checkered past, I do think it would change my opinion of her if she started dealing that heroin in prison.

It's like the proverbial gun shown in Act 1, though. Hard to imagine it's not going to go off.

I wonder if Alex will use dealing heroin in the prison as a way to do penance for the drug lord who is after her. She finds out about the heroin, sets up shop in the prison, and funnels all proceeds to Kubra or Koopa or whatever his name was. Maybe they even find a new way into the prison to smuggle the drugs. 

 

I also think the Nicky/heroin/Alex as dealer thing could be used to give Piper on the show the same growth she had in the book, where she had a moment of realizing the real damage that being involved in drug smuggling did to real people she knew in prison, and accepting her small role in causing that damage. I could see that being the wedge between Piper/Alex that could create the push-pull for a while; Piper feels guilt and true remorse for her involvement, and Alex just sees it as a way to survive. 

[Dusty]

 

I could see that being the wedge between Piper/Alex that could create the push-pull for a while; Piper feels guilt and true remorse for her involvement, and Alex just sees it as a way to survive.

 

I would hope that if they go with this storyline then it provides growth for Alex too.  She always says that this is all she knows how to do and that she's good at it. (Like it's the only thing she can do)  My wish for Alex as a character is for her to realize that she can do more than smuggle/deal drugs.  She's smart and capable of so much more if given the chance.  I think I read somewhere that the girl that Alex is based (loosely) on is getting her PhD.  I want her to believe that she is capable of more.  I feel like John in Farscape telling Aeryn "You can be more!"

 

Some of what I find interesting about the Piper/Alex relationship is that intangible hold that they have on each other.  I'm not sure which one has more of a hold on the other.  I'm on the fence about it but I tend to lean toward Piper having more of a hold on Alex than Alex has on her.  The scene that got me the most this season between them was the flashback when Alex first told Piper that she loved her.  I found it sweet and a little sad at the same time when Alex said in a small voice "You have to say it back."  I don't know, maybe I'm reading too much into it or falling for the Vause effect but that one line said so much about her character to me.

[CodeNameDuchess]

I found it sweet and a little sad at the same time when Alex said in a small voice "You have to say it back."  I don't know, maybe I'm reading too much into it or falling for the Vause effect but that one line said so much about her character to me.

 

That little exchange was very sweet and Vause seemed so vulnerable in that moment.  Piper is firmly entrenched in Alex's heart...  but Vause has Chapman by the loins.  I thought it was telling that Piper had no idea what sex could be like before Alex.  People do weird things while drunk on oxytocin, like getting caught up in international drug cartels. 

[SaabStory]

I hope it is more than the loins. :) But I think the narrative was clear that Alex woke up something sexual in Piper.  That comment to Polly plus their conversation at the Burlesque show.  But they didn't see each other for years before prison and seeing her still freaked out Piper. So maybe more than the loins. :) The thing for me is that they have been really shitty to each other.  Like seriously shitty to each other.  Not like why didn't you text me back shitty, but like you sent me to prison shitty.  I am going to want to see some less shitty behavior in season three. So I can logically cheer for them instead of just illogically cheering for their chemistry.

 

Piper told Alex she was confused by her. How can Piper be drawn to someone that has done what Alex has done to her? But she keeps coming back. Maybe we can find out why in season three.  I agree with CodeNameDuchess.  Alex loves Piper. But I think Alex is more than just sexual for Piper. I'm hoping that it is love, too. But I am not sure at this point.

 

But as long as I get to see LP and TS interact on TV, it will keep me happy for a while. :) 

Edited June 18, 2014 by SaabStory

[x1013x]

I am totally onboard for more Vauseman. I will fully admit that I have shallow reasons for liking them together. On a not so shallow note, they are made for each other because they are both so toxic. Them being together keeps other people from falling into their crazy shit. They both make the other care about someone other than themselves once in awhile.

[eXiled]

During "Thirsty Bird" I yelled at my TV because I knew Alex was setting Piper up AGAIN. I try to hate Miz Vause, but it's impossible because of my main moral failing: I am a Chemistry Whore. As a Chem-Ho, I tend to root for it anywhere I see it, even when said chemistry is damaging to the characters as individuals. The chemistry is powerful in Vauseman.

 

I've seen lots of viewers claim to dislike Piper and Alex and/or the actors portraying them, but for me, these two crazy, untrustworthy, unhealthy women make the show. I just don't know if I'd be as interested if they weren't on the canvas, even though I adore many of the other characters. I want Alex and Piper together. Or apart. I just want them near each other. Being part of each others lives. Even when they're hating each other they're better than Daya and Bennett, two chemistry-less bores. The name of this thread says it all because I've always been fascinated by this type of love. It ain't pretty, it ain't always romantic, it can be soul-crushing, but I always find it entertaining.

[SaabStory]

I guess I am as naïve as Piper. I'm still not sold on the fact that what Alex did was on purpose or planned out or manipulative. I heard all these rumblings after some people saw the premiere prior to June 6th. #fuckAlex, etc. But once I watched the episode, it wasn't that black and white to me. I know, there is bridge you want to sell me. :) 

[carsonfan]

During "Thirsty Bird" I yelled at my TV because I knew Alex was setting Piper up AGAIN. I try to hate Miz Vause, but it's impossible because of my main moral failing: I am a Chemistry Whore. As a Chem-Ho, I tend to root for it anywhere I see it, even when said chemistry is damaging to the characters as individuals. The chemistry is powerful in Vauseman.

 

I've seen lots of viewers claim to dislike Piper and Alex and/or the actors portraying them, but for me, these two crazy, untrustworthy, unhealthy women make the show. I just don't know if I'd be as interested if they weren't on the canvas, even though I adore many of the other characters. I want Alex and Piper together. Or apart. I just want them near each other. Being part of each others lives. Even when they're hating each other they're better than Daya and Bennett, two chemistry-less bores. The name of this thread says it all because I've always been fascinated by this type of love. It ain't pretty, it ain't always romantic, it can be soul-crushing, but I always find it entertaining.

 

Honestly maybe I'm living in a Vauseman bubble but I'm not aware of lots of viewers disliking the couple, characters or especially the actors. I just joined this site today but Twitter, Tumblr etc. are all about loving Vauseman, Alex, Laura etc. I think even Jenji said everyone loves Alex. So I definitely think you're in the great majority especially considering how everyone lost their minds last year when they thought LP was leaving the show meaning no more Alex or Vauseman. I saw a poll that asked who you want with Piper and 98.5% said Alex and only 1% said Larry lol. So if there's a hated character I'd definitely say it's him!

 

I'm with you on these two making the show. Even if they were just sitting there reading the phone book it would be fascinating to watch. I honestly haven't seen this level of chemistry between two actors in a really long time. The characters on their own are complicated and interesting but put them together in any type of scene be it a love scene, fight, or something like the spooning scene and you just can't take your eyes off the screen. So thankful Alex will be coming back to Litchfield and we'll get to see our girls again doing all of those things they do so well!

 

I guess I am as naïve as Piper. I'm still not sold on the fact that what Alex did was on purpose or planned out or manipulative. I heard all these rumblings after some people saw the premiere prior to June 6th. #fuckAlex, etc. But once I watched the episode, it wasn't that black and white to me. I know, there is bridge you want to sell me. :) 

 

Count me in the naive group! Honestly I'm shocked by the reactions to the first episode. The last thing Piper said to Alex was that she planned on telling the truth and that Alex couldn't keep her safe either way. I saw Laura in an interview defending Alex by saying that same thing that as far as she knew Piper was going to tell the truth so this way they would both be telling the truth. I don't see how in any way Alex planned this whole thing out just to screw over Piper. I genuinely believe she was trying to protect her and keep her safe. When it comes down to it they both ended up doing the opposite of what they were planning to do. Thank goodness we got those scenes towards the end of the season explaining that the deal came down at the last minute and how Alex thought Piper was telling the truth and Piper thought Alex was going to lie. Loved the line about them being like an O. Henry story! Plus if Alex screwed Piper over then why right 100 letters to her or try so hard to explain when all she had to do was skip town or never even bother contacting or seeing her again. She tried to explain immediately afterwards when she Piper before her lawyer dragged her out but didn't have a chance so then came all the letters. So yeah I can get people being upset because she got out and Piper was still in prison that maybe it was self serving on Alex's part but I don't see how after watching the scene on the bus people could say Alex's whole intention was to completely screw over Piper.

 

I liked season 2 but the lack of Alex and Vauseman really hampered my enjoyment. I'm so thankful for what we did get since originally it was only going to be that one episode. I do think Alex will be mighty pissed at Piper when she figures out that she's the one who got her thrown back in prison. But I'm sure this too shall pass with them after an initial blowup. I have to believe that since we were so deprived of Vauseman this season Jenji will give us plenty of good Vauseman stuff next season.

 

Thanks bravelittletoaster for starting this thread! Nice to have a place to talk about Vauseman where I don't have to do it in 140 characters or less lol.

[mledawn]

Honestly maybe I'm living in a Vauseman bubble but I'm not aware of lots of viewers disliking the couple, characters or especially the actors.

 

You are probably right that there aren't "lots" of viewers who feel that way, but allow me to introduce myself as someone who is not a fan of Alex or Alex and Piper's relationship. At all. In fact, it's an extremely odd feeling not to be onboard with the main ship of a show I watch, but it's just the way it is.

I'm also not that big a Prepon fan due to my (senseless) inability to forgive her for playing Karla Homolka in the movie "Karla", so I'm hitting all elements.

 

I liked season 2 but the lack of Alex and Vauseman really hampered my enjoyment.

 

And it was the exact opposite for me - I was relieved that their storyline took a back seat. To each their own, though - I know I'm in the minority and it's cool.

Edited June 24, 2014 by mledawn

[eXiled]

Honestly maybe I'm living in a Vauseman bubble but I'm not aware of lots of viewers disliking the couple, characters or especially the actors. I just joined this site today but Twitter, Tumblr etc. are all about loving Vauseman, Alex, Laura etc. I think even Jenji said everyone loves Alex.

I don't read Twitter, Tumblr or the rest. I'm still on old-fashioned message boards, lol. Personally I think some people are just disagreeable. Some others simply like what they like. I remember being one of the only people who didn't like Willow and Tara on BtVS way back when. I was accused of being homophobic (clearly not the case since I ship Vauseman in a shameful way and would have watched Eliza Dushku's Faith get it on with ANY woman on BtVS/AtS--especially Lilah). But I take it all in stride. Not everyone sees the same things.

 

Like....I don't see the big deal over Poussey. I tend to think she's the weakest of her clique (well, the second weakest after the woman who plays Janae) but it's only my opinion. Also, some people swear up and down that Alex has reformed and means Piper no harm. *Shrugs* I won't ever believe that. I'll always believe Vause to be a huge snake. Yet knowing she's a snake does not stop me from liking her chemistry with Piper. I don't need to believe either character has GOOD INTENTIONS to enjoy their interaction. They can be heartless bitches and still own me. I'll let others ascribe sweet motivations to their actions. It won't change what I see.

Edited June 24, 2014 by eXiled

[smrou]

I'll always believe Vause to be a huge snake. Yet knowing she's a snake does not stop me from liking her chemistry with Piper. I don't need to believe either character has GOOD INTENTIONS to enjoy their interaction.

Totally.  I also think Alex is a snake--though I can't say now that I'll always believe that since I don't know what her character's arc will be in the future--but also dig her chemistry with Piper.  And I enjoy the complicated nature of their dynamic where there's always this background of betrayal/suspicion.  I think that makes for fun and interesting viewing.  I don't think either one of them should trust the other and I don't think they have the makings of a strong relationship, but I like watching them interact. 

 

Plus, you know, they're hot together and I like watching them make out, so...

Edited June 24, 2014 by smrou

[eXiled]

You hit the nail on the head. Vauseman is hot. Because I'm shallow that's the most important thing for me. It's been years since I've shipped a pairing this hard. I look forward to more of their shenanigans.

Edited June 24, 2014 by eXiled

[bluedevilblue]

I don't think Vause is a snake. I think she very aptly described herself as a ruthless pragmatist. I think she's out for #1. That's not really snake-like behavior. In fact, I would argue in some ways she is more honest than Piper (note, I did not say she was honest, I said more honest). Alex seems to have a self-awareness that Piper, at times, lacks. She does not, for example, try to bullshit Piper or herself with the idea that she has "changed" over the past 10 years. Similarly, when they first hook up and Piper tries to paint Alex's two-timing her girlfriend as Piper "taking advantage" of Alex's unhappiness, Alex immediately jumps in with "I'm a grown up, Piper," taking responsibility for her own choices.

I have this theory about "chemistry" on shows. I think it's the writers' jobs to create characters who have strengths and weaknesses that make them seem like they would be attracted to one another. It's not really a business plan to create two milquetoast characters and hope the actors have chemistry. The chemistry needs to be on the page. Here, I think the writers have done an excellent job of creating two characters that you can understand why they are pulled towards each other and why it always seems to not quite work out. I think that would be true even if the actresses only had average chemistry. So long as they are acting, the pairing is going to be okay. I contrast this with Daya and Bennett, where the storyline is boring and has gone on forever (with movement only coming at the very end of season 2). Yes, the actors don't seem to have great chemistry at this point (although I thought they did early on), but I'm not sure "chemistry" between the actors would make the storyline any more interesting. The pairing is boring in large part, IMO, because of the writing. It's one of the only really poorly written story arcs, IMO. Both characters come off as complete morons. With Schilling and Prepon, I think the writers have done a much better job creating chemistry on the page and then got lucky that the actresses have their own chemistry to add to that.

I can totally understand why some people don't like Vause/Chapman, together, or Vause or Chapman, individually. I have had an actor that I just don't happen to dig completely ruin an entire show, even as everyone else loved it. And, given how flawed both Vause and Chapman are, there are plenty of reasons to dislike them individually or hate their dysfunctional relationship, even though I really like both actresses and their characters. What I like about this show is that all of the characters have strengths and weaknesses, just like actual people. For some people, Alex's weaknesses will outweigh her strengths, for others it will be the other way around. I actually think that's a fair debate as to any of the characters. None of them is all good or all bad (except maybe Vee and Fig) and different people will find the differing ways of "good" and "bad" more acceptable or not. I, for example, have grown to pretty much hate Boo. who is far from the "worst" character. But her pettiness just grates. Frankly, I have more respect for evil.

Edited June 25, 2014 by bluedevilblue

[DangerousMinds]

I guess I am as naïve as Piper. I'm still not sold on the fact that what Alex did was on purpose or planned out or manipulative. I heard all these rumblings after some people saw the premiere prior to June 6th. #fuckAlex, etc. But once I watched the episode, it wasn't that black and white to me. I know, there is bridge you want to sell me. :) 

i'M not sold either on what Alex did, but I am 100% sure that Piper fucked Alex over when reporting her to her PO. Unforgivable IMHO.

You are probably right that there aren't "lots" of viewers who feel that way, but allow me to introduce myself as someone who is not a fan of Alex or Alex and Piper's relationship. At all. In fact, it's an extremely odd feeling not to be onboard with the main ship of a show I watch, but it's just the way it is.

I'm also not that big a Prepon fan due to my (senseless) inability to forgive her for playing Karla Homolka in the movie "Karla", so I'm hitting all elements.

 

 

And it was the exact opposite for me - I was relieved that their storyline took a back seat. To each their own, though - I know I'm in the minority and it's cool.

I'm not sure who is the majority or minority, but I was perfectly happy to focus more on the other characters in Season 2 as well.

[bravelittletoaster]

I definitely see plenty of people air their discontent with Piper and/or Alex on the interwebs, but I think it's a fairly vocal minority.  Because the internet lost its collective shit when Buzzfeed broke the news about Prepon's departure and Netflix seemed to be peeing itself for a few months not knowing how to handle it.  So, selfishly as a Vauseman fan I'm really glad they seem to have got the message.  The preponderance [ha] of Laura's press appearances in the season 2 rollout and in preliminary discussions of season 3 suggest to me that Netflix, with all its available metrics that we don't have, are confident in her popularity across the board.

[CherithCutestory]

In fact, I would argue in some ways she is more honest than Piper (note, I did not say she was honest, I said more honest).Alex seems to have a self-awareness that Piper, at times, lacks. She does not, for example, try to bullshit Piper or herself with the idea that she has "changed" over the past 10 year

 

 

I disagree. Alex literally lied to Piper about being responsible for ratting her out. And she did it because she wanted her to like her. That is an essentially dishonest and deeply needy person right there. It wasn't pragmatism. It was a girl who never got over having her heart broken and desperately needed her old girlfriend to want her. Beyond that she guilt tripped her and made her feel like a horrible bitch for daring to assume it was Alex (when it was Alex). That is not a more honest, self-aware human being. After brief initial denial, Piper is honest about her own culpability in her situation. She laid it out for her mother in the first few episodes. She is honest with Larry about how she feels about Alex when asked. She is always honest to Alex about how she feels about Larry and the status of their relationship.

 

By contrast, Alex still thinks she was somehow wronged by Piper who left her just because she asked her to be a drug mule/money launderer after Piper made it clear she didn't like that and tried to hide her passport to trap her in a foriegn country. (After a breakup you don't get to insist your ex go to your mother's funeral. It is abusrd to expect that.) She has the audacity to blame Piper for becoming a junkie. Even after ten years. Because all of this time later she still can't admit that she was a drug dealer and that is why she lost everything good in her life. As Piper said. A decade later, Alex still refuses to take responsibility for her own part in screwing up her life. She dares to be furious that Piper would choose a real life over X on a beach in Cambodia when she is in her forties. I mean what else is Piper supposed to do there?

 

Piper is right in saying that she has changed in the last ten years. She has. We see a more confident and mature person than she was in her flashbacks. Almost anyone would have changed in ten years. There is something deeply wrong if you haven't. And it goes to Alex's essentially pathetic loser core that she hasn't. That sounds mean but I really think it is positive. I don't think Alex is a snake. I think she is basically kind of a cool loser who never got over the girl that got away and has no ability to make a real life for herself. And losers can change and grow. Snakes don't. So, I mean it in a good way!!

 

Similarly, when they first hook up and Piper tries to paint Alex's two-timing her girlfriend as Piper "taking advantage" of Alex's unhappiness, Alex immediately jumps in with "I'm a grown up, Piper," taking responsibility for her own choices.

 

But that was also Piper taking responsiblity for her own choices. She didn't try to pretend to be an innocent in the situation. She didn't try to pretend she played no role in the breakup. She straight up said she took advantage and made the move when she knew Alex was in a relationship. Which is just as true and honest as what Alex said. Piper took advantage of knowing Alex wanted her despite being in a relationship. Alex let her because she is and adult. Both are accurate. If Piper were someone who couldn't take responability and be honest with herself she would be putting the blame on everyone else.

 

I like the two together despite myself because of the chemistry and the dynamic. But, in the end, Piper is a much more fully realized human being right now. She is very flawed. But she acnkowledges it and seeks to change. She doesn't see them as some immutable part of herself and then shrug and say "well guess I'll be a drug dealer forever".

 

 

So yeah I can get people being upset because she got out and Piper was still in prison that maybe it was self serving on Alex's part but I don't see how after watching the scene on the bus people could say Alex's whole intention was to completely screw over Piper.

 

 

I don't think she did it to hurt Piper. She just did it without caring that Piper was going to get hurt. I don't find it very credible that she knew for a fact Piper would tell the truth. Since, she knows full well the hold she has over Piper. She knew it was at least 50/50 that Piper would lie. And when she walked out past Piper's holding cell she knew full well she had screwed her over and wanted to explain. There was no confusion. She was an incredibly valuable witness to the prosecution and it defies belief that she couldn't get some leeway to alert Piper of the change in plans.

 

I really do ship the couple a lot. They have great chemistry. And the way they just look at each other is adorable.

 

But it is frustrating for me because it seems like Piper spends a lot more time apologizing to Alex than the other way around. When up until the probation call their crimes against each other weren't remotely proportional. Breaking up with someone is something most of us have done and it is okay. Choosing a more stable life is okay. Thinking the only person who really knew you well in a drug ring turned you in (and being right) is okay. Ratting out your ex-girlfriend for a slightly reduced sentence is pretty shitty beyond normal relationship shittiness. Lying to her about it and manipulating her into feeling bad is pretty shitty. Convincing her to perjure herself is pretty shitty.

 

But when they are together it is like Piper is almost always the one who feels like she is in the wrong or is being unreasonable. Like her palpable relief that Alex didn't hate her in the opener. She had no legitimate reason for hating her in the first place!  She never lied about the fact that she wanted to be with Larry. Alex had absolutely no future to offer her and had just recently been caught lying and manipulating her. Piper made a choice and was honest about it. She didn't do anything wrong.  Yet there they were with Piper just so damn happy Alex would speak with her and wasn't "holding grudges" as though she had messed up.

Edited December 19, 2014 by CherithCutestory

[OrangeCrush]

CherithCutestory What a great analysis of the Piper vs Alex saga. I totally agree with everything you posted. I have always been one to defend Piper because I have thought people usually never cut Piper any slack especially calling her a whiny narcissist which I do not believe she is at all. I love Piper. What I find most interesting is that Piper really does try to be a better person. Sometimes her mouth commits before she has thought out how the impact of her words will affect her and those around her but all in all, Piper is at the core a good person who is trying to be truthful and honest with herself and those around her.

 

I would love to see Piper and Alex grow individually so they could have a healthy adult relationship outside Litchfield and be the end game for thier story but I am not so sure Alex wants to change at all. People tend to overlook all of Alex's shortcomings but in the same stroke of a pen magnify all of Piper's flaws. They are both very flawed characters and unfortunately, Alex seems to be content remaining flawed where as Piper actively works to better her self.

Edited December 18, 2014 by OrangeCrush

[CherithCutestory]

They are both very flawed characters and unfortunately, Alex seems to be content remaining flawed where as Piper actively works to better her self.

 

 

I completely agree. I actually think they are really similar, really flawed people. They are genuinely people who if things had been different would be very compatible partners. They both like the same books, travel, have very similar senses of humor, share passion, call each other on bull shit. Both are selfish and narcissitic at times with streaks of dedication and generosity. Alex is chill when Piper is impulsive and hot tempered, which compliments each other.  It is very rarely the case in these sorts of good girl/bad girl (or boy) love stories that they are genuinely people who, had things been different, would be a good, stable couple.

 

But at a point way before Piper met her Alex just gave up on ever living a real life. She just accepted her fate of being a drug dealer and drifting through life with no real plan. Decided the person she was when she met her father (desperate, angry, alone) was the person she would always be. Gave up on going to college or taking any steps to better her life. And that isn't Piper's fault. It isn't Piper's fault that at some point she had to get off the ride and begin her real life. And it seems like Alex focuses so much of her anger about her own choices onto Piper. Putting it all onto that one day when Piper left. Piper is obviously drawn to Alex on a very physical level. There is no way she could be her friend or go to the funeral and act like a girlfriend and still have the ability to leave. She had to go while she had the resolve.

 

I thought it was interesting when she was talking about her rock bottom story. How she didn't have one because she was living it. But then described taking heroin for the first time after Piper left. Without any realization or self-awareness that that was her rock bottom. That was the moment when her addiction to the drug trade caused her to lose everything. That was when her addiction to the power of being a dealer meant she had alienated everyone in her life and was all alone. And it was all because of her choices. Instead, like a lot of addicts, she rationalized. Put the blame on someone else. And embraced being at rock bottom by adding a new addiction (to heroin). And she is still doing it.

 

One thing I really like about the flashbacks is the whole image of Alex being this bright light that Piper was just drawn to is really shattered once they explore it.

 

Like the flash back in the premiere with Kubra. Piper was no background figure. She was out partying with Kubra and co after Alex went to bed. She was perfectly comfortable in their presence. And they seemed comfortable with her. Not dismissive of some girlfriend hanging around.

 

Or Piper reclaiming Alex after the whole Sylvie thing. That was sexy as hell. Just as sexy, or more, as Alex's initial pickup tricks. Or Alex's insecurity after she said I love you. You defintiely see that Piper was as magnetic a force to Alex as Alex ever was to her. Maybe even more so. And that Alex had a lot more riding on that relationship.

 

And I think you kind of see it in prison too. Yeah, she gets in a lot more trouble and people dislike her more. But she also makes a lot more friends. She is also active in a lot more worlds in the prison (helping decorate for Taystee's going away, crocheting with the old ladies, the newsletter, yoga, writing appeal letters, the track). Tries to interact and even make things better. Piper is an active particpant in whatever world she is in. That can be a really bad thing (it is why she is in prison and why she gets on people's bad sides) but it can be a good thing too.  She doesn't just hang back and watch life happening to other people. Alex is really more of a spectator. A spectator who survived on latching onto other people's life experiences and turning them into profit. And then latched onto Piper, who is brimming with life, to make her feel like a whole person. And fell apart when Piper walked away and left a shell.

 

I'm really sorry about bumping so many threads. I just rewatched this weekend and it is all fresh in my mind.

Edited December 20, 2014 by CherithCutestory

[lovemytvshows]

I am uber uber late into the OITNB game as I've only started watching S1 but am unabashedly a Vauseman shipper...well actually more Vause than Chapman (whom I have grown to loath as S1 progresses - which does not bode well for S2 & S3).

 

Spoilers be damned as I've read ahead but am a little letdown to find that a lot of people (save for the rabid Vauseman fans on Tumblr) aren't Vauseman (both or either) fans. To be honest the only reason I watch is for LP/AV. There's something magnetic yet natural in her performance. Nicky, Morello and Crazy Eyes are my other favourites but good lord Chapman is starting to grate. 

 

Thought I might find some people in here who might share my sentiments and provide some reviews on S2 & S3 which I will endeavour to get to.

[ciprus]

I don't know what happened to Vauseman this season. They were good (or, they usual messy hot selves) for the first half, and then all of a sudden Piper has the hots for Stella and think Alex is an annoying psycho. Was Alex really THAT annoying, or does Piper just lose interest when she isn't the center of Alex' attention all of the time?

I absolutely hated the scene where Alex confronted Piper and Stella and they were like "OMG she's so clingy and paranoid", when Piper was already cheating on Alex with Stella at that point. Plus when Piper said she had been there, done that with feeling guilty about being a cheater. Made me really fall of the Vausman wagon there for a while. :(

[lovemytvshows]

Hmm good point ciprus, Piper's character shift in the latter half of the season seemed to have come out of nowhere, if only to further fuel the love-triangle drama which seemed contrived in itself. It's as if the writers attempted to commit character suicide or something. They could still have Vauseman on the outs without the need to introduce Stella. 

 

I'm open to seeing Alex be paired up with someone other than Piper who has become insufferable, but I also don't want that to happen in a cheap shot kind of way just for the sake of it.

 

At this stage, I'm more looking forward to seeing what happened with Alex after her cliffhanger end at the episode. 

[ciprus]

Piper went from yay!Girlfriends! too annoyed and disinterested at the blink of an eye. She was so happy about officially coming out to her parents and being with Alex again, and then... what? Didn't make sense to me, where was the downward spiral? She just mocked Alex' paranoia, but didn't seem that bothered by it until talking to Stella about it.

I wonder if they cut some Vauseman/Stella scenes, since it felt so disjointed. When Ruby Rose came on they said that her character would catch the interest of both Piper AND Alex, but that didn't happen. Did something happen to make them change their minds and cut scenes?

[TheInvisibleWoman]

Apologies for cross-posting this (I posted it in the Piper Chapman thread a few minutes ago) but I wanted to share my bewilderment at Piper's complete 180 with regards to Alex. I touched upon the reasons (well, theories) for Piper's descent into madness in the Piper thread, but two things about season 3 Piper (whom some people have been referring to as Dark! Piper) that are still baffling to me are : (a) her sudden body image issues, and (b) her cheating on Alex with Stella.

They both came out of nowhere (I mean, Alex really *wanted* to have sex with Piper---- remember the bathroom scene about "June 7th"?) and I am beginning to suspect that they introduced (a) to create some lame-ass pretext for (b) happening. I am beginning to suspect that (b) was a ratings-grab to incorporate what turned out to be a bland, unnecessariy-introduced character (Stella). If that is the case, I would be very disappointed in the show runner (I'm looking at you, Jenji) for doing that at the expense of a previously-brilliantly written character in the form of Piper Chapman. Yes, Piper cheated on Larry with Alex, but she felt guilty about it, and let's face it, it was the love of her life she cheated with. ..... not some pretty nobody who she just noticed when Alex started becoming "annoying" to her. I know one theory of why Piper fell down the metaphorical rabbit hole had to do with self-loathing but I just can't see her cheating on Alex...esp. since Alex gave her absolutely NO REASON to do so. Her love for Alex was the last part of Old Piper that she clung to, and I think she would have stayed true to Alex (the girlfriend that she loved, as she told her family in S3) until Alex dumped her.

And, lovemytvshows, LP/AV *is* magnetic! I must say, though that when LP is in scenes with TS, something magical happens. Their chemistry is unbelievable and I think that's part of the reason for Vauseman being such a compelling OTP..... well, that and their acting, which is amazing (or mamazing, as Alex would say, lol)

Edited June 29, 2015 by TheInvisibleWoman

[DianeDobbler]

 

On a not so shallow note, they are made for each other because they are both so toxic. Them being together keeps other people from falling into their crazy shit. They both make the other care about someone other than themselves once in awhile.

Agreed and that's what makes them a good couple, even a "healthy" couple, chemistry aside. On most shows, relationships with this much drama are portrayed as sort of inherently co-dependent, a couple that brings out exhaustingly destructive or dysfunctional tendencies in each other. I'm remembering various teary television scenes where a couple is in love or addicted but "I can't do this anymore!" sob sob, and they choose someone "healthier" so they can have stability, even if the passion isn't there. What's interesting here is these two are fucked up individually. It's not Piper bringing out Alex's destructive side or vice versa. In fact, they temper each other in that respect, and calm each other down. Both are hard-wired to be self-interested, and things would definitely be worse for each of them apart (and whatever alternative partner they were with). They humanize each other.

[TheInvisibleWoman]

@DianeDobbler:

Yes, they do temper each other, and I think why they fell apart (temporarily only, I hope) in season 3 is because Piper wasn't acting like normal Piper, and Alex wasn't acting like normal Alex. I mean, normal Piper had her issues but she was making progress until a few eps into S3....I do love their dynamic when things are going well for them, and it's obvious how incredibly happy they can make each other when they are firing on all cylinders. Even though it was sex, I still find the hate-sex disturbing to some degree, and Piper's happiness during the "Will you be my girlfriend? " scene didn't seem to last for too long before she was turning down sex (from Alex Vause..... who the hell would believe that?? The writing this season for Piper was largely disappointing. .....sigh.....)

[lovemytvshows]

What's interesting here is these two are fucked up individually. It's not Piper bringing out Alex's destructive side or vice versa. In fact, they temper each other in that respect, and calm each other down. Both are hard-wired to be self-interested, and things would definitely be worse for each of them apart (and whatever alternative partner they were with). They humanize each other.

 

 

Agree on all counts. Which is why, despite Piper turning out to be completely insufferable (to me at least) in S3, I think hold out some hope for Vauseman. But to be honest, I can feel it wearing thin but partly because Alex doesn't seem to have much of a storyline aside from Piper. Granted, this season she's got the heat turned up on her cause of Kubra and I did enjoy her interactions with Lolly. I did like watching them play off one another and I do hope to see Alex interact more with others (Lolly, Red, Yoga Jones, Morello - now that Nicky is gone) and not have the bulk of her story tacked to the Piper relationship.

 

To me, their relationship pre-prison and even during prison, has been established quite sufficently and I'm hoping we'd be able to see them connecting a bit more beyond the love/hate betrayal/manipulation dynamic and dredging up old issues. I actually quite like all their little talks about life post-prison and I think it's something that can be elaborated upon further. We know Alex is in for much longer than Piper, but it's something they've never brought up when talking about the future together.

 

The writing this season for Piper was largely disappointing. .....sigh.....

Also in agreement with this and everything else you said in the much larger post above. I'd like to think there is some logic behind such a dramatic shift but I don't see it. Or at least not at the moment. Maybe S4 will give a clearer picture on that.

[baky]

I have a question for all of you/us Vauseman lovers 

Do you think Alex and Piper are endgame?
 

[lovemytvshows]

Hmm good question...depends on the longevity of the show and how long the actresses want to stay in the role? 

 

And also, I want to see more of the relationship aside from just the back/forth because of backstabbing/lying/manipulation thing. Otherwise it's just a relationship that's stuck in a vicious cycle and then I guess if that's the case, even if it's endgame, it won't be satisfying.

 

And on a completely different note, why aren't more TV relationships like Coach & Tami Taylor (Friday Night Lights)? They didn't need to have the make up/break up drama for it to be a very solid, compelling and admirable relationship.

[DianeDobbler]

I think they're meant to be the loves of each other's lives and will always be that, but, plotwise, sometimes a show sacrifices a duo like that to "earn" happier endings for a bunch of other characters, so that's why I hesitate with "end game". It's rare that a show sort of goes "Happy endings for everyone!" the way Mad Men did, whatever problems I have with that show's actual finale. Both actresses seem committed to the show, and OITNB's format allows the characters to come and go, which is probably an incentive to stick around.

[ciprus]

I think Piper is the love of Alex's life for sure, but I don't know if I believe Alex is Piper's after this season. By bringing Alex back to prison and then dumping her for the next pretty face makes me doubt Piper's genuine feelings. I think she loves Alex when Alex gives her attention and is confident and fun. When Alex is sad, worried or "needy" she doesn't give Piper what she wants, and Piper gets bored and checks out. That's not true love.

Also, Piper didn't think that far ahead when she got Alex sent back to prison. Alex supposedly has much more time left than Piper who has like seven months left, at most. If she really loved Alex and wanted to be with her long term, shouldn't she have waited to get out and then joined Alex on the outside? Piper is just out for instant gratification IMO. At this point I can't see Piper not growing bored with a relationship with Alex still incarcerated and Piper on the outside.

I am interested in seeing how Vauseman plays out next season, but I don't think I ship it like I once did.

[DianeDobbler]

I don't know if I ship it, per se, but I believe it. if they make Piper's love life important, they have their work cut out for them replacing Alex. Stella certainly doesn't cut it. I wonder if the show wants us to think about the disparity in the time both women are serving. If we're meant to focus on that, I think Alex would have never forgiven Piper.

 

I wonder if Alex loving Piper isn't more convincing than Piper loving Alex simply because Alex really has no other story and Piper does. Even the Alex flashbacks had her acting out in reaction to Piper's rejection. Still, Taylor Schilling has called the Alex character "foundational" for Piper. I'm not good at making plot assumptions, but I'd think the show needs to keep Piper in Litchfield longer than her given sentence because the show is going to keep running, so maybe she'll have some time tacked on for siphoning off the scrap fabric into her own business (I'll do anything to avoid naming what it actually is Piper is doing).

 

Do we know the particulars of Alex's conviction/the case against her? If they had a solid case against her as the operations manager for a high level drug king, I have issues with her ending up in minimum security. It's even kind of a stretch for her parole violation, which included being found in possession of a gun, landing her back in minimum. I wonder if it weren't some rather knocked down sentence that justified a decent hunk of time but didn't classify her as having been as seriously in the international drug cartel business as she actually was.

[lovemytvshows]

I think Piper is the love of Alex's life for sure, but I don't know if I believe Alex is Piper's after this season. By bringing Alex back to prison and then dumping her for the next pretty face makes me doubt Piper's genuine feelings. I think she loves Alex when Alex gives her attention and is confident and fun. When Alex is sad, worried or "needy" she doesn't give Piper what she wants, and Piper gets bored and checks out. That's not true love.

Also, Piper didn't think that far ahead when she got Alex sent back to prison. Alex supposedly has much more time left than Piper who has like seven months left, at most. If she really loved Alex and wanted to be with her long term, shouldn't she have waited to get out and then joined Alex on the outside? Piper is just out for instant gratification IMO. At this point I can't see Piper not growing bored with a relationship with Alex still incarcerated and Piper on the outside.

I am interested in seeing how Vauseman plays out next season, but I don't think I ship it like I once did.

 

You took the words right out of my mouth, Ciprus. The only reason I find myself unable to get back on the Vauseman shipping after the "golden age" of S1 is purely Piper's behavior, which seems so out of character. Alex will still be my favourite character unless they make her do a 180 a la Piper in S3 (for the love of god, no!), but it does feel a bit weird that she becomes more standalone since so much of her story has revolved around Piper.

[TheInvisibleWoman]

I have a question for all of you/us Vauseman lovers

Do you think Alex and Piper are endgame?

 

 

Absolutely! There is way too much love and history and too many scenes of them showing their love for each other throughout the seasons for it *not* be endgame. I mean, they've talked about their lives post-Litchfield in S1 and S3. Why would the writers repeatedly bring that up, and why would they have Piper (who many people accuse of loving Alex less than Alex loves her---more on that below) say things like "Why do you always feel so inevitable to me?" in S1 and "It was like the universe had just brought us back together." in S3?? Also, after Alex breaks it off with Piper, you can see how she really isn't *done* with Piper (convo with Yoga Jones) and Piper still has deep feelings for Alex (she tells Stella she and Alex are just "on a break", and that look of longing she gives Alex in the hallway after CO "Gerber" talks to her shows just how much she misses her).

 

I know Piper treated Alex pretty terribly in S3, but again, I don't think that is the "true" Piper. That Piper is very much in love with Alex, but as a character she has trouble believing she is loveable (stems from childhood issues--lying/pretending to be what others want you to be is better than telling the truth, her parents not giving her unconditional love like Alex's mom gave Alex, etc). Whenever Alex expresses her love, she has this surprised/awed look ("Inevitable" scene in S1, bunk scene in S3, etc) like "Wow, Alex loves *me*???". I do understand why so many people find it hard to believe that Piper loves Alex as much as Alex loves Piper, but I do think it's true; Piper just has a lot of problems accepting love because she didn't get a lot of it growing up, and when she did get it from Larry, it was when she was playing a role (the Nice Blonde Lady).

 

In terms of writing, I do like it when Alex and Piper interact with other inmates. In fact, I love it. Alex's scenes with Lolly were among my favourites in a pretty bleak season for Ms. Vause. And her scenes with Lorna are always fun to watch. Hopefully, both Alex and Piper will have interesting storylines in Season 4. I know Laura Prepon has said many, many times how much she loves her character and how much she loves to play her character, so I don't think she wants to leave. Keeping fingers crossed that Alex will be ok in season 4!

Edited July 1, 2015 by TheInvisibleWoman

[DianeDobbler]

I definitely feel that in many ways Alex is home base for Piper. I recently had the chance to watch the premiere, and because it played a lot with the contrast between Piper's comfortable non-prison life and Litchfield, I experienced Litchfield as more alienating than I had when watching later episodes. Also, in the premiere OITNB played up Larry and Piper's relationship as loving, warm, supportive, and real. Even so, when Alex showed up at the very end, THAT was the moment that I felt relief for Piper, even though Piper's own reaction was to scream. It just felt as long as Alex was there, Piper was going to feel much more at home, much more like herself. I think some of this may derive from Prepon's own sort of grounded presence - the low voice, the height, the measured way of moving - but I also think the actors as their characters do connect in a way that didn't register with Larry/Piper even though the show did a great job showing that that was, when we first encountered it, a loving relationship. There could be a difference between how Schilling plays the two relationships even going back to the premiere.

[lovemytvshows]

Not sure if this has been shared before but I came across it again recently. Still hilarious. It's the Vauseman version of "Hitler's Rant": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtAsC3Hb3F0

Edited July 2, 2015 by lovemytvshows

[baky]

Absolutely! There is way too much love and history and too many scenes of them showing their love for each other throughout the seasons for it *not* be endgame. I mean, they've talked about their lives post-Litchfield in S1 and S3. Why would the writers repeatedly bring that up, and why would they have Piper (who many people accuse of loving Alex less than Alex loves her---more on that below) say things like "Why do you always feel so inevitable to me?" in S1 and "It was like the universe had just brought us back together." in S3?? Also, after Alex breaks it off with Piper, you can see how she really isn't *done* with Piper (convo with Yoga Jones) and Piper still has deep feelings for Alex (she tells Stella she and Alex are just "on a break", and that look of longing she gives Alex in the hallway after CO "Gerber" talks to her shows just how much she misses her).

 

I know Piper treated Alex pretty terribly in S3, but again, I don't think that is the "true" Piper. That Piper is very much in love with Alex, but as a character she has trouble believing she is loveable (stems from childhood issues--lying/pretending to be what others want you to be is better than telling the truth, her parents not giving her unconditional love like Alex's mom gave Alex, etc). Whenever Alex expresses her love, she has this surprised/awed look ("Inevitable" scene in S1, bunk scene in S3, etc) like "Wow, Alex loves *me*???". I do understand why so many people find it hard to believe that Piper loves Alex as much as Alex loves Piper, but I do think it's true; Piper just has a lot of problems accepting love because she didn't get a lot of it growing up, and when she did get it from Larry, it was when she was playing a role (the Nice Blonde Lady).

 

In terms of writing, I do like it when Alex and Piper interact with other inmates. In fact, I love it. Alex's scenes with Lolly were among my favourites in a pretty bleak season for Ms. Vause. And her scenes with Lorna are always fun to watch. Hopefully, both Alex and Piper will have interesting storylines in Season 4. I know Laura Prepon has said many, many times how much she loves her character and how much she loves to play her character, so I don't think she wants to leave. Keeping fingers crossed that Alex will be ok in season 4!

Again, I 100% agree with you. I have nothing to add. That conversation with Yoga Jones made me think a lot, it was the moment I thought: they're def. endgame.

Btw it's great to read all this different opinions about Vauseman and their "future" ;)

Not sure if this has been shared before but I came across it again recently. Still hilarious. It's the Vauseman version of "Hitler's Rant": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtAsC3Hb3F0

Thanks for sharing "they have to go to Paris and fuck in every bed they find" Lol

[DianeDobbler]

I found this article  http://www.criminalelement.com/blogs/2014/07/orange-is-the-new-black-season-2-episode-10-little-mustachioed-shit-prison-netflix-jake-hinkson, which looks at Season 2, and the acting of Schilling, Prepon, Stone and Lyonne, to be pretty good, and insightful. The writer finds Schilling and Stone to be stronger pure actors than their on screen significant others, but considers Prepon and Lyonne, as cinematic objects and personalities, to be the perfect counterpart to Schilling and Stone, respectively. I think he's right about Schilling being really good, especially the example he used comparing her work as jailed Piper to her ten years younger self. He also thinks Piper is a much stronger character vis a vis Alex. I don't mean a stronger fictitious character, but a stronger narrative focal point.

Edited July 3, 2015 by DianeDobbler

[baky]

I found this article  http://www.criminalelement.com/blogs/2014/07/orange-is-the-new-black-season-2-episode-10-little-mustachioed-shit-prison-netflix-jake-hinkson, which looks at Season 2, and the acting of Schilling, Prepon, Stone and Lyonne, to be pretty good, and insightful. The writer finds Schilling and Stone to be stronger pure actors than their on screen significant others, but considers Prepon and Lyonne, as cinematic objects and personalities, to be the perfect counterpart to Schilling and Stone, respectively. I think he's right about Schilling being really good, especially the example he used comparing her work as jailed Piper to her ten years younger self. He also thinks Piper is a much stronger character vis a vis Alex. I don't mean a stronger fictitious character, but a stronger narrative focal point.

Great article! :) I kinda agree with what he says, especially about Schilling