TheInvisibleWoman

Absolutely! There is way too much love and history and too many scenes of them showing their love for each other throughout the seasons for it *not* be endgame. I mean, they've talked about their lives post-Litchfield in S1 and S3. Why would the writers repeatedly bring that up, and why would they have Piper (who many people accuse of loving Alex less than Alex loves her---more on that below) say things like "Why do you always feel so inevitable to me?" in S1 and "It was like the universe had just brought us back together." in S3?? Also, after Alex breaks it off with Piper, you can see how she really isn't *done* with Piper (convo with Yoga Jones) and Piper still has deep feelings for Alex (she tells Stella she and Alex are just "on a break", and that look of longing she gives Alex in the hallway after CO "Gerber" talks to her shows just how much she misses her). I know Piper treated Alex pretty terribly in S3, but again, I don't think that is the "true" Piper. That Piper is very much in love with Alex, but as a character she has trouble believing she is loveable (stems from childhood issues--lying/pretending to be what others want you to be is better than telling the truth, her parents not giving her unconditional love like Alex's mom gave Alex, etc). Whenever Alex expresses her love, she has this surprised/awed look ("Inevitable" scene in S1, bunk scene in S3, etc) like "Wow, Alex loves *me*???". I do understand why so many people find it hard to believe that Piper loves Alex as much as Alex loves Piper, but I do think it's true; Piper just has a lot of problems accepting love because she didn't get a lot of it growing up, and when she did get it from Larry, it was when she was playing a role (the Nice Blonde Lady). In terms of writing, I do like it when Alex and Piper interact with other inmates. In fact, I love it. Alex's scenes with Lolly were among my favourites in a pretty bleak season for Ms. Vause. And her scenes with Lorna are always fun to watch. Hopefully, both Alex and Piper will have interesting storylines in Season 4. I know Laura Prepon has said many, many times how much she loves her character and how much she loves to play her character, so I don't think she wants to leave. Keeping fingers crossed that Alex will be ok in season 4!

Interesting analysis, but I don't agree with it in the sense that I don't think Season 3 Piper (after she goes all out of character) is the real Piper. I think her inability to live up to people's expectations (Her words to Red in 3x02:" I lie I get in trouble. I tell the truth I get in trouble. I can't do anything right."), her guilt over Alex's life being in danger because of *her* (a guilt she's been tamping down and compartmentalizing for all of S3) and the awful name Alex called her in the cafeteria scene flipped a switch and she decided to become the bad person that everyone says she is. There are numerous times in previous seasons, where people say she's a "horrible person" (Big Boo), "mean person" (Crazy Eyes), etc. so I think she subconsciously gave up on trying to be good. As I said before, though, I don't for the life of me know why she felt that cheating on Alex (the girlfriend she loved) was ok, esp. since they reconciled completely in 3x03. Bah! Still scratching my head over that one....She's a darned complex character so we could be debating this 'til the cows come home, but her complexity (to me) is part of her appeal as a protagonist :)

@DianeDobbler: Yes, they do temper each other, and I think why they fell apart (temporarily only, I hope) in season 3 is because Piper wasn't acting like normal Piper, and Alex wasn't acting like normal Alex. I mean, normal Piper had her issues but she was making progress until a few eps into S3....I do love their dynamic when things are going well for them, and it's obvious how incredibly happy they can make each other when they are firing on all cylinders. Even though it was sex, I still find the hate-sex disturbing to some degree, and Piper's happiness during the "Will you be my girlfriend? " scene didn't seem to last for too long before she was turning down sex (from Alex Vause..... who the hell would believe that?? The writing this season for Piper was largely disappointing. .....sigh.....)

Apologies for cross-posting this (I posted it in the Piper Chapman thread a few minutes ago) but I wanted to share my bewilderment at Piper's complete 180 with regards to Alex. I touched upon the reasons (well, theories) for Piper's descent into madness in the Piper thread, but two things about season 3 Piper (whom some people have been referring to as Dark! Piper) that are still baffling to me are : (a) her sudden body image issues, and (b) her cheating on Alex with Stella. They both came out of nowhere (I mean, Alex really *wanted* to have sex with Piper---- remember the bathroom scene about "June 7th"?) and I am beginning to suspect that they introduced (a) to create some lame-ass pretext for (b) happening. I am beginning to suspect that (b) was a ratings-grab to incorporate what turned out to be a bland, unnecessariy-introduced character (Stella). If that is the case, I would be very disappointed in the show runner (I'm looking at you, Jenji) for doing that at the expense of a previously-brilliantly written character in the form of Piper Chapman. Yes, Piper cheated on Larry with Alex, but she felt guilty about it, and let's face it, it was the love of her life she cheated with. ..... not some pretty nobody who she just noticed when Alex started becoming "annoying" to her. I know one theory of why Piper fell down the metaphorical rabbit hole had to do with self-loathing but I just can't see her cheating on Alex...esp. since Alex gave her absolutely NO REASON to do so. Her love for Alex was the last part of Old Piper that she clung to, and I think she would have stayed true to Alex (the girlfriend that she loved, as she told her family in S3) until Alex dumped her. And, lovemytvshows, LP/AV *is* magnetic! I must say, though that when LP is in scenes with TS, something magical happens. Their chemistry is unbelievable and I think that's part of the reason for Vauseman being such a compelling OTP..... well, that and their acting, which is amazing (or mamazing, as Alex would say, lol)

Two things about season 3 Piper (whom some people have been referring to as Dark! Piper) that are still baffling to me are : (a) her sudden body image issues, and (b) her cheating on Alex with Stella. They both came out of nowhere (I mean, Alex really *wanted* to have sex with Piper---- remember the bathroom scene about "June 7th") and I am beginning to suspect that they introduced (a) to create some lame-ass pretext for (b) happening. I am beginning to suspect that (b) was a ratings-grab to incorporate what turned out to be a bland, unnecessariy-introduced character (Stella). If that is the case, I would be very disappointed in the show runner (I'm looking at you, Jenji) for doing that at the expense of a previously-brilliantly written character in the form of Piper Chapman. Yes, Piper cheated on Larry with Alex, but she felt guilty about it, and let's face it, it was the love of her life she cheated with. ..... not some pretty nobody who she just noticed when Alex started becoming "annoying" to her. I know one theory of why Piper fell down the metaphorical rabbit hole had to do with self-loathing but I just can't see her cheating on Alex...esp. since Alex gave her absolutely NO REASON to do so. Her love for Alex was the last part of Old Piper that she clung to, and I think she would have stayed true to Alex (the girlfriend that she loved, as she told her family in S3) until Alex dumped her.

@ baky: I agree with you re: Taylor's performance---she is stellar as Piper, and if there was a single wrong note in her performance in season 3, I place the blame squarely on the writers. I think her character development could have been infinitely more interesting (and plausible) if they hadn't rushed it. As you said, Piper is a very complex character and that part of her story arc needed more time to develop properly, esp. since she seemed to be becoming more self-aware (ie. seeing her *true* self) as the seasons progressed. I think the Piper we saw in S3 is not the "real" Piper, but rather Piper doing what Piper has done throughout her life-----make herself into the image of what she thinks others expect of her. She did this to get her parents' approval & love, she acted the part of Nice Blonde Lady for Larry, but when she wound up in prison, things changed and she couldn't hide from her true self any longer (remember the speech she gave to Dina, the girl in the wheelchair, in 1x11?) There is an excellent explanation here: http://alxvse.tumblr.com/post/121890708186/okay Oh, and this post below is sort of what got the ball rolling with regards to the reasons for Piper's descent: http://captainscarletts.tumblr.com/post/121480897210/okay-my-tentative-thoughts-on-why-i-could

@CherithCutestory: you and I have sparred on this board (in the Alex Vause thread) and on imdb.com about Piper, Alex and Vauseman in general, but I have to agree with your reply above 100%. Yes, Hell has frozen over and we are in agreement! The only thing I would add is that yes, Piper didn't flip over Alex accusing her of spying for Kubra, but Alex also didn't invoke Piper's responsibility for putting her life in danger in that scene, either.... and she easily could have. As for Piper's oral technique being A+ ..... well, I must say I agree with that; I had suspected she was a Pillow Queen, but the 3x02 library scene disproved that notion, lol.

@angelita100: I see you posted this the day before Season 3 started streaming.... Assuming you've watched all of S3 (and I'm not, thus my avoidance of spoilers), I'm wondering if your opinion of Piper (and Alex) has changed since then . If you haven't seen it, I suggest you do so because Piper's S3 behaviour will make your head spin. As for awards in their OITNB roles, Laura had one nom and one win (Satellite Award 2013, Best Supp. Actress) and Taylor had multiple noms and one win (Satellite Award-same year as LP, but in the Best Actress category). I am*really* hoping that Laura gets a ton of nominations for her work in season 3 of 'Orange' because she was a standout, I thought. I mean, I'm a fan and I think she's always great playing Alex, but this S3 was a real rollercoaster and she really brought her A game to the role.....

CherithCutestory: I had a feeling you'd post a reply after our little IMDb discussion, LOL. But yeah.....you and I agree on a couple of things as to Why Piper Does and Doesn't Suck and Why Alex Does and Doesn't Suck....and I can see why you'd think Piper had good reason to dump Alex in Paris. I just feel Piper's timing was God-awful, given Alex's mother's death (and Alex being abandoned by Piper--- her words, not mine!--- literally minutes after finding out about it) ....thus my sympathy/empathy towards Alex. Of course, that's what these fan boards are all about. Now, I know I should feel empathy/sympathy towards Piper too, but somehow the way it was scripted, Piper's leaving seemed (to me) rushed and thus didn't really give Alex any time to make amends, or even figure out why Piper was so incensed at being asked to do one more drug-money-smuggling trip. I didn't see the buildup of tension, just Piper (or "Pipebomb", as some have called her) suddenly deciding to leave Alex at the mere mention of it. Yes, yes, I know it was sh!tty of Alex to ask her to do that, but (as I said my IMDb reply earlier tonight) I really don't think Alex thought it was a big deal..and yes, she took Piper's love for granted, to the extent that she thought Piper would do anything for her. So yeah, Alex's perspective was really screwed up---she loved the thrill of doing illegal stuff for big bucks---and she blew it with regard to Piper. I think Alex was just lashing out with a cheap shot with that "straight girl" comment in Paris. I don't think she thought of Piper as being straight (or even close to it ...esp. with Piper admitting to being a "boob-touching" lesbian back in ep 2x10) so (in her mind), I think she knew that Piper leaving had zero to do with her sexual orientation and 100% to do with Alex taking Piper for granted. You can kind of see it in Alex's face after Piper says "Is that what you think this is about? That I like dick? You know, I guess that is easier than facing the fact that you are a drug dealer. And it is ruining everything good in your life.". Alex's shoulders kind of drop and her face falls and I think the truth of Piper's words hit her in the face...but at that point, Piper has already made the decision to leave and it's too late for Alex. If only those two had better communication skills with each other. Really frustrating as a Vauseman shipper to watch two intelligent characters screw up their relationship over and over again because of it (and it happens again in Chicago...jeez....). I was just thinking about that (Alex's reply to Piper's "What's the endgame here?" question) and how it would have been so incredibily easy for Alex to lie and tell Piper exactly what she wanted to hear. I don't know if Alex was being 100% honest with her answer, or if she was just PO'd at Piper for even *asking* (esp. since she had just dumped Alex again....for Larry, this time). As for self-awareness, I think Alex has wayyyy more of it than Piper. Yes, Piper has grown as a character but she is still lying to herself at the end of Season 2 (in their visitation scene, she tells Alex that she hates her...when we all know she means the opposite) so she has a ways to go. I think Alex knows herself very well and knows Piper very well, too (thus her ability to see through Piper's BS, like in the scene above). OrangeCrush--not sure what performance you've been watching, but I think Prepon's doing an amazing job and I think she deserves all the acting awards for her role in OITNB. I hope she gets a chance to shine again in S3 with all the dramatic stuff we saw in the trailers for the upcoming season.

Well, I think it would be foolish of Piper to even try to deny ratting Alex out to the cops because, let's face it, who besides Piper (not including Larry and Polly) even knew Alex was planning to skip town? Having said that, would I blame Piper for trying to do get the self-proclaimed love of her life back? Hell no! I don't think Piper will try to deny it, though, and truthfully, we don't fully know her motives for doing what she did---i.e. was it purely to protect Alex from Kubra? Was it as some measure of revenge for Alex ratting her out? Who knows? Alex's motivations for lying to Piper about naming her are equally multifacted---the hurt that Alex still feels from their breakup, the anger over Piper's abandonment, the fact that Alex still loves Piper deeply and wants to rekindle their love, etc.. In other words, there is a whole weight of history with these two that impacts their decisions in the present day. For example, Alex's silent treatment and dirty looks in season 1 that you bring up--- I think those had nothing to do with Piper thinking Alex ratted her out, and everything to do with Piper abandoning Alex in Paris when Alex's mother died. I mean, can you imagine losing the two people who mean the most to you in the same day? I can't even begin to imagine the amount of pain that would cause. Surely that would impact someone's life, even 8 years later.... There has been some talk on the online boards about Alex's reasons for asking Piper to do this. Some have suggested that Kubra forced Alex into enlisting Piper's help in order to have some leverage, should Piper have decided to leave Alex. We'll see if this speculation turns out to be true or not. Kubra did have an odd look on his face when Piper left the swimming pool in episode 2x10... LOL. Sorry, but I disagree. Alex did risky things on Piper's behalf---e.g. when she kissed Pennsatucky (in retaliation for Piper's being sent to the SHU) Bennett explicitly threatened Alex with being sent to the SHU (" Hey, knock it off! You wanna join your friend down the hill?" were his words), when she stood up for Piper when Pennsatucky was raging about losing the WAC vote to Piper in the laundry room (Alex's "I will f*ck you" speech). Also, the cornbread incident in the cafeteria--- Alex was starved out by Red as a consequence of trying to feed a near-starving Piper. As I said before, however, Alex is a survivor and she does what she needs in order to survive, but Piper is her weakness and she will stand up for her, even if it means serious consequences. Sorry, gotta disagree. Piper wounded her badly and that scar never healed because she never got a chance to discuss the breakup with Piper until they reunited in Litchfield. If Alex had some degree of closure after their breakup, I think things might have turned out a bit differently. Or not. In any case, Piper's leaving Alex in Paris seemed rather sudden; I wish the OITNB writers had written another scene showing more strain in their relationship. Having said that, I did re-watch the scene several more times and I finally see how difficult it must have been for Piper to leave Alex in Paris. Initially I thought it was easy for her to do, but the look on her face when she is leaving tells me otherwise. A great scene with Taylor and Laura in it. I read your IMDB thread about Alex(http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2372162/board/thread/239393070) and I have to agree with the "Reasons Alex Doesn't Suck". An important point that you bring up is that they are equals. I think this is one of the reasons that they are such a strong OTP, and I think we agree on that point, at least :)

@CherithCutestory Well on *that* we agree! I guess I must be seeing Alex through rose-colored shipper glasses.....I do not see her as a "pathetic loser' (your phrase, not mine) in any way, shape or form. She is a human being, one with faults and fears like anyone else, and it's this vulnerability (hidden behind a tough exterior) that makes her (in my opinon, anyway) a sympathetic character. I'm not saying Alex didn't do bad things .....I'm just saying that she deserves a measure of understanding and empathy, like anyone else. Of course her motives were selfish with regard to lying to Piper about ratting her out to the Feds, but weren't Piper's motives (for leaving Alex in Paris, for leaving Larry for Alex, for leaving Alex for Larry, etc etc) also selfish? I'm just saying that both Alex and Piper are self-centered and both need to do a lot of growing-up. Yes, Piper has matured during her stay at the Litch ---she admits that her being there is "no one's fault but (her) own"----but Alex has also shown maturity in apologizing to Piper "for all of it" and taking responsiblity for Piper's being in prison, in their final visitation scene. Re: Alex's responsibility for her own heroin use, post-Paris....By the same logic, it was Piper who carried that suitcase, not Alex. In other words, each character was responsible for her own actions. If you don't want to lay *any* blame on Piper's doorstep for Alex turning to heavy drugs after being dumped, then you can't lay any blame on Alex for Piper agreeing to carry the suitcase to Brussels. Just sayin'. Charming phrase.....but let me ask you this: how do you feel about Piper ratting Alex out to the cops at the very end of Season 2?

(Re: the kitchen scene) Well, you can't express something that isn't in the characterization. If you expect Alex to feel badly about lying to Piper about ratting her out to the feds, you'll be waiting a very long time. Remember that first and foremost, Alex is a survivor. Laura has alluded to this in several interviews. Alex is also a self-confessed "ruthless pragmatist". I don't see the manipulation going on in this scene at all. I think Alex is genuinely hurt, esp. after she (a) realizes that Larry dumped Piper (a fact deliberately hidden from Alex by Piper) and (b) thought Piper was merely using her as a source of comfort in prison. As for why we should feel badly for Alex...... Where do I begin? Piper left her the very day Alex's mother died (and never apologized for it), played the innocent victim (to Larry, her family and even Alex--in the bathroom confrontation) and wronged party ("You stole my good life", in the pie-throwing scene). She never expresses sadness at the damage she did to Alex (and she knew about Alex's heroin use, in the yoga scene) or concern for Alex's need for anti-depressants in prison (in the first bunk scene). Piper had plenty of opportunities to apologize for abandoning Alex before they reconciled---her failed apology attempt in their first laundry scene---and even after they reconciled (chapel scene, when Alex asked Piper if she knew Tricia better than Alex's mom). In the kitchen scene, finally, it all blew up after Alex discovered that Piper was, in fact, dumped by Larry (thus her genuine fear of Piper using her as a binky).....I mean, how can you not feel sorry for Alex in that moment?? On top of all these strong feelings of anger, however, is Alex's intense love for Piper---a woman she never got over, even after eight years apart--- thus her "I wanted you to like me" explanation/excuse. You can see all the weight of their past history, and Alex's conflicting emotions in Prepon's face and words, and I think Laura does a great job of expressing that, both verbally and non-verbally (more about that later). Though I don't agree with Alex's decision not to tell Piper she turned her in, I can see her justifying it in her own mind, especially after Piper treated her like crap (even Nicky said that Piper was acting like "an asshole", in the 'Vote for Morello' scene). It could be a simple matter of perception..... What I see is Piper is constantly staring at Alex like she's the Second Coming...even when she's annoyed with Alex (in the dryer scene) or angry with her (Alex handing out prison shoes scene). I could go on and on with more examples.....I'm not saying Piper has no emotional hold over Alex--quite the opposite---but it's pretty obvious to me who is more drawn to whom. I can't think of a more charismatic character on the show than Alex Vause; I think that's why Piper is so drawn to her ;) I never said that Alex was more complex a character than Piper; in fact, I think Piper is more complex. I could, however, write a whole book on Laura's amazing non-verbal acting alone. Her expressions & facial mannerisms, the way she uses her glasses to show emotions (fiddlng with them when nervous, taking them off when she wants to open up to someone emotionally), her stance, the way she carries herself, etc. etc.. It's quite remarkable acting, in my opinion. What deal did Alex have in place in Chicago? I re-read the transcript of the episode and couldn't find anything alluding to this. Again---look at Piper's face in the visiting room after the "O. Henry" line---she knows that Alex wasn't trying to manipulate her, and now we know it, too. Well, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, CC; I think Laura's doing a fantastic job of portraying a multi-dimensional character, and you don't. I see the complexity behind Laura's subtle portrayal of Alex and you don't. And FWIW, I thought she was really good in some of the dramatic scenes in "70s" ;) (I should have mentioned that earlier).

Wow. Are we even watching the same performance ??? I feel a bit sheepish for jumping to Laura's defense (not that she needs it---her fine work on OITNB speaks for itself) but I couldn't let this pass without a rebuttal re: her portrayal of Alex Vause. If we're being completely honest, I wasn't a big fan of Prepon's acting before "Orange", having only seen her in "That 70's Show". I thought her line delivery was flat (sorry girrrrl ;) and the show as a whole, unfunny and, at times, unwatchable. To be fair, it was her first acting gig, and the bad scripts didn't help. Later on, I saw her in a couple of guest appearances on "Medium" and "House" and was pleasantly surprised to see how her dramatic acting had evolved. What she does on "Orange", however, is worlds away in terms of depth of character portrayal. In her portrayal of Alex, she has created an extremely complex, charismatic, fully three-dimensional character, one who marks her deep insecurities behind a façade of bravado and wisecrackery. It is only when Alex is alone with Piper (and with Nicky in the library scene, which I thought was wonderfully acted by both actresses) that we see the "real" Alex Vause, and I think Prepon does a wonderful job of showing her vulnerable side. Alex & Piper's scenes together are tender, funny and *real*, and I don't think you can attribute that to chemistry alone. It would actually be unfair to do so as both actresses are at the top of their game in portraying that complex dynamic. Taylor is brilliant at walking a fine line between comedy and drama, and portraying a character who can be extremely unlikeable at times. It is to her credit that so many fans who do not like Piper can't help but root for her. Actually OITNB casting director Jen Euston didn't see Laura as having the girl-next-door quality required to portray Piper Chapman (the role that Prepon initially auditioned for). She was, however, perfect for the role of Alex ("...she was exactly what they wanted for Alex", Euston is quoted as saying (source: http://www.buzzfeed.com/emilyorley/how-the-orange-is-the-new-black-cast-came-to-be#.db2YN65BL). Jenji Kohan was herself "...so dazzled by how f—ing good she was" (source: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/orange-is-new-black-casting-723404). I can't argue with the show's creator and Emmy-award-winning casting director :) I thought Prepon was terrific in this scene. I've watched and rewatched it many times and my heart never fails to break a little when I see Alex's pained expression as she says "Look at me". I really cannot imagine anyone doing a better job of portraying the depth of hurt and anger. An utterly brilliant (not merely "fairly good") performance by Laura, in a crucial scene between Alex and Piper. Actually, both actresses shone in that scene. The chemistry between the two is nothing short of amazing; let's hope they get a lot of screen time together in season 3. I think this was a deliberate decision on the showrunner's (Kohan's) part. In interviews, Prepon is animated and loud (she jokes about that), but Alex Vause has an almost quiet stillness to her. Alex internalizes her feelings and I think that is why the role works so well when Laura (deliberately, I believe) underplays it. Alex doesn't have the "Piper temper" and in fact, the only times we see her use her physicality is when she is pushed over the edge (e.g. in two scenes, both with Pennsatucky). I disagree. I think Alex is the black hole into which Piper is continually drawn. Prepon has alluded to this (albeit using a different analogy---the spider and the fly) in interviews, and said that at least one director told her to play the role that way. I never saw Alex's motives in that episode as being sinister, so I didn't see the need to show any duplicity. I think that was just Alex's cocky way of telling Piper that she's really happy to see her. As for the whole Alex-betrayed-Piper-in-Chicago thing....Can't we all agree that their trial testimony screwup was caused by a simple misunderstanding? In the show, Alex says "I thought you were gonna tell the truth!" and Piper replies "And I thought you were gonna lie!" followed up by Alex saying "Jesus, we are like a f-----g O.Henry story." , at which point, both characters smile fondly at each other. This tells me (as a viewer) that Piper now knows that Alex did not betray her. I thought the writers should have written in Alex's utter relief at seeing Piper after her stint in the SHU. I don't, however, blame Prepon, as she played the scene as it was written. In summary, I think that Laura Prepon deserves a hell of a lot more credit for her work on "Orange is the New Black". I just wish that those who wrote off her talent after only watching her on "That 70's Show" (such as myself, I'm ashamed to say) would give her a second chance. Her work just keeps getting better and better, and I look forward to more of Alex in season 3.