Sara Lance: The Canary Rises In White

[Sakura12]

Ava is too insecure and dull to be the leader of the Legends. They need someone with the presence that stands out among powered people.  Its not just about being a good fighter. Sara brings so much more to the table. She's a tactician that adapts to any situation, she thinks quick on her feet and doesn't back down no matter what obstacles are in front of her. But they have now reduced the criteria for being Captain to  sleeping with Sara and knowing how to fight. 

I don't know why we are supposed to buy Sara trusting Ava to lead her team when Ava can barely hold it together for than 5 minutes, gives up after one failure, can't think of plans on the fly and needs constant reassurance that she's a good leader. A good trusted leader shouldn't need that. 

The Sara's blind so she needs a co-captain defense doesn't work for me since they are barely putting any effort into that storyline. Sara seems to be walking around places she's never been just fine and fighting on her own too. She didn't need a co-captain the many times she's been in a coma or dead, why does she need one now. 

[statsgirl]

Everything you wrote @Sakura12. Ava doesn't have the temperament, the experience or the ability at this point to be a co-caption much less a captain. Sara constantly pushing her into the lead position and then failing again and again, makes Sara look like a love-blinded fool.

[lurker22]

This whole Sara is blind and Sara dies by zombies plot is just so the writers can legitimately make Ava co-captain. It was never about giving Sara superpowers and a story. I can see why Caity was disappointed by it when it was clear what it really was.

Being a leader of the Legends require a certain kind of charisma, to be able to stand out among this group of misfits. Sara has that. Even her snazzy send-offs are a reflection of that, though they may not always work, lol. Every time I watch Ava lead the team, I feel underwhelmed. She's too boring to pull it off.

19 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Sara constantly pushing her into the lead position and then failing again and again, makes Sara look like a love-blinded fool.

Sara is better than that, and I hate that the writers are turning Sara into that person just to prop up Ava.

[Starfish35]

One thing that was just glaringly obvious during this last episode was how much it focused on Ava and her reactions to everything, rather than Sara’s.  We see Sara die from a distance, but closeups of Ava’s reactions to it.  When Sara gets up from the table and walks away to the bar, it’s from a distance. When Ava gets shot in the head, we get no close up of Sara’s reaction.  Instead, the focus is on Ava.  When they jump out of the truck, the focus is on Ava.  Other than the Zari/Constantine scenes, and right in the beginning while they’re still in the house, the focus is nearly always on Ava, not on Sara.   It was just a really strange directing choice, and I don’t really understand it.  

[Sakura12]

They couldn't even have Sara's absence be about her visiting her dad (now that a version of him is alive) or spending time with her other friends. It HAD to be about Ava.

Every thing Sara does is about Ava. While Ava gets to have hobbies like a podcast. Book club is also Ava's. Even this episode Sara compared the Legends to freeform Jazz and Ava said she doesn't like Jazz and Sara immediately says she doesn't either. Its like Sara can't have her own likes anymore. She has to just agree with Ava. Probably because Ava gets mad and cries when Sara doesn't agree with her or take her side. 

[lurker22]

I just remembered, Ava didn't even earn the role of TB director. She became the director by default because Rip got arrested and Bennet got killed.

Now that she was given the co-captain title by Sara, Sara has to spend time hand-holding her through missions. Compared to Zari 1.0 who is much more capable than her. If we get to keep Zari 1.0, it would just look worse on Ava. And Sara too, who looks weak as someone who supports nepotism. 😧

[Sakura12]

Ava was only the director of the Time Bureau because everyone else died. Then she wasn't even the top boss, Nate's dad was. So Ava barely has any experience leading anything. I don't even remember seeing Ava leading any missions in the field. 

So what exactly are her qualifications to lead? Sara holding her hand and telling her what to do and say, is not showing Ava being a good leader. And all the speeches and pep talks she's giving to Ava, old Sara would've been giving them to the whole team. Instead Sara barely interacts with her team. She talks at them rather than to them. She only talks to Ava and if Ava gives someone else permission to talk to her. Like when she told John to watch her during the hellhound episode.

Ava has now pretty much taken control of Sara's whole life. She can't talk about her previous friends, she can barely talk to her team without Ava being present, all her pep talks are reserved just for Ava and Ava has taken over her job as Captain. 

For me LoT is treating Sara worse than Arrow and Arrow threw her at an actual dumpster. At least she was a character that had storylines and didn't have to share everything with Oliver. They were each separate characters and dealt with their issues together and with other characters. On LoT Sara doesn't even feel like a character that matters anymore. The credits say Starring Caity Lotz but it feels more like she's a guest star love interest. 

[lurker22]

Yeah, I miss Sara's pep talks to the team. The writers actually show Ava bumbling through trying to give a pep talk. Do they think her poor attempts at leading are endearing?

Sara definitely got a lot more stories and development in Arrow S2. I remember being surprised at how much backstory she got as a guest star. She was shown to be an equal to Oliver, without taking anything away from him. And her "equal" status was well-deserved too. I see Sara's positive character development ending in S2 of Legends. Whatever happened in S3 onwards changed and took away from Sara instead.

Sadly, Caity's "promotion" to first billed wasn't even an active push by the show, it just happened by default since the other actors left, and Dominic is in the "and..." credits instead. She's always just been the lead in name and promotion materials only, but not in execution of the show.

[Sakura12]

I wonder if the Sara promotion is more a CW/WB thing. The other LoT characters are not well known or are original characters. Sara is the only known hero from the Arrowverse. Ray was often included as well. Last SDCC only had Caity, Brandon and Dominic. They are the ones that SDCC wants.

The writers may want Ava there to represent LoT but no one else does because she not a comic book character nor does she matter outside of LoT. Even the crossovers only usually take Sara, Ray and Mick and occasionally Nate. Sara is important to the Arrowverse, she's just not important on LoT anymore. I know she doesn't get too much in the crossovers but at least she matters in them. 

I do really think CL is still on the show because they can't risk the backlash of breaking up Avalance. So they keep her around to prop up Ava. CL wants more directing credits so that's probably the deal they made. After this season's "storyline" I wouldn't blame her for giving up on asking for another one. She's Ava's love interest now. 

[lurker22]

Does SDCC choose who goes to the event, or is it the studio/network/PR team that chooses? Either way, they are the 3 most well-known actors and/or characters - Caity as Sara on Arrowverse, Brandon as Superman, and Dominic from Prison Break. Plus, they're the OG cast members. They have the highest chance to generate the most media attention.

There's absolutely no chance they will break up Avalance. The co-captain thing is probaby also them trying to please the Avalance fans. I wouldn't be surprised if Caity is more drawn to directing now if she feels more challenged by it. None of the stories she's asked for Sara over the years came true - more female friendships, active superpower, reactions to losing her father

Spoiler

(we'll see if the line she snuck into the finale about Quentin stays),

SL outside of Ava, etc. What's the point of asking for other storylines?

[scarynikki12]

Tag spoiler references outside of the spoiler thread. 

[lurker22]

Reading Marc Guggenheim's podcast interview, even though his answers were old news, it was still really nice to see a showrunner talk about Sara as her own character, and stay on Sara when asked specifically about her, instead of quickly pivoting to another character instead.

[tv echo]

19 Actors Who Were Perfectly Cast And Styled As Comic Book Characters
Hannah Marder   August 24, 2020
https://www.buzzfeed.com/hannahmarder/actors-that-looked-like-their-comic-book-characters

4. The Black Canary from Arrow (played by Caity Lotz)

   

While the identity of the Black Canary in the comics and Arrow-verse changed, I always really liked Sarah Lance as the Black Canary.

[tv echo]

MG had a twitter exchange with a fan who accused him of whitewashing and used Sara Lance/White Canary as an example -here's some of his tweets...

Edited September 4, 2020 by tv echo

[MarkHB]

I gotta side with MG on this one... They used just the name of an extremely minor character and applied it to someone entirely different. It's not like they took the whole WC backstory and then made her white, unless Sara and Laurel have seven brothers we've never seen.

 

Edited September 4, 2020 by MarkHB

[Sakura12]

I agree with Marc on this one. It's not white washing if it's a different character with a different backstory. It's more like the many Flashes and Green Lanterns. Different people used the name. 

However it would've been much simpler to let Sara just be the Black Canary instead of the mess they made of the character anyway. 

[scarynikki12]

If they hadn't been so determined to make it clear that Laurel was THE Black Canary then they could have sent Sara to LOT as the Canary with a new suit and Laurel's "be a hero in the light" as a new mentality and all of this could have been avoided. In retrospect that was the way to go since LOT doesn't use the code names anyway and the characters rarely suit up outside of crossovers and season finales.

[Sakura12]

This arguement is pointless since Sara never uses White Canary on LoT. She goes by Captain Lance. Oh sorry she's been demoted to Ava's sidekick, called babe now. 

[Starfish35]

I agree with you all.  I do wish that she’d been allowed to be the Black Canary on Legends (especially since there ended up multiple Black Canaries on Arrow) so that (among other reasons) this wouldn’t keep being brought up.  But that being said, yes.  Caity Lotz wasn’t cast as the White Canary.  She was cast as Arrow’s Black Canary 1.0, and then when Laurel took over the role and they decided to resurrect Sara for Legends they needed something else to call her.  They didn’t take the WC character from the comics and change her race.  

Edited September 5, 2020 by Starfish35

[lurker22]

I just watched the LOT DC Fandome panel, and it's really clear IMO that Ava is Phil's favorite. When the moderator asked a direct question about what happens to Sara in S6, Graine talked about the other Legends, and Phil talked about Ava. At least Keto brought it back to Sara by saying she will get her own adventure. Then Phil talks about Ava/Jes again when the question was about the new character. At least he said they were trying to get Caity to breakdance, like in the 80s, when asked about storylines they abandoned. That I would like to see.

And it still irks me that the moderator introduced Caity and Jes as co-captains of the Waverider.

Edited September 12, 2020 by lurker22

[Sakura12]

That's because Ava is his creation and he keeps trying to push her to the front. That's why everyone had to call them co-captains now. I do think that when Sara comes back she'll give up the title to Ava. 

[Starfish35]

4 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I do think that when Sara comes back she'll give up the title to Ava. 

I suspect you’re right.  I’m finding it extremely hard to muster up any enthusiasm whatsoever for this upcoming season.😢

[Sakura12]

12 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

I suspect you’re right.  I’m finding it extremely hard to muster up any enthusiasm whatsoever for this upcoming season.😢

Same with me. Nothing about this upcoming season sounds interesting. Sara losing the title she earned to a character that has earned nothing really ruined the show for me. 

[Featherhat]

I really don't understand it. Jes is a good actress but there's really nothing very special about Ava. They don't even use what makes her unique consistently. She's every straight laced lead and socially awkward character who occasionally does something crazy. That's a fairly common trope. Nothing wrong with it but there's a lot more to mine elsewhere if they aren't even going to explore clone issues except when it's convenient as a get out clause. 

I'm really betting Sara gives up the captaincy for the same reason Martin and Rip gave it to her that she's realised Ava's become "the heart of the team" or the "strongest of us" whilst she's been gone and she has to deal with the aftermath. Everything about it from separating her to the return screams sidelining and Rip in S2 to me - and THAT was because AD was busy elsewhere.  

I said before I had stepped away from LOT fandom because it was making me annoyed and a little depressed in a way I didn't (especially from my fun, cray yet heart warming and earned emotion show) and I don't see anything from Fandome that makes me think this is changing, which is a huge shame. 

At least the new character probably means if KC turns up it won't be as a regular to be yet another take over of Sara's role. I've been paranoid and annoying people about that in the Arrow forum ever since it looked like the new spin off was dead. 

[Screamnastics]

1 hour ago, lurker22 said:

And it still irks me that the moderator introduced Caity and Jes as co-captains of the Waverider.

I haven't watched it yet. Caity doesn't even get the courtesy of being introduced separately now despite being their top-billed cast member?

TBH, I'd much rather see KC on the show and Sara interacting with BS than what we're likely to get. They're far from my favorite actress/character, but KC at least put in the time, and Sara focusing on a Laurel doppelganger makes more sense than rolling over for Ava.

[Sakura12]

They can't even introduce Sara as Captain Sara Lance, they have to put the stupid co thing in there. Why does Ava have to be the co-captain? The only purpose I see it doing is pushing Sara out of the way so Ava can take over.  

Are we sure Caity still has top billing? I wouldn't be surprised to see Jes ahead of her next season. I mean she gets more in the opening credits than Caity. 

[Screamnastics]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

They can't even introduce Sara as Captain Sara Lance, they have to put the stupid co thing in there. Why does Ava have to be the co-captain? The only purpose I see it doing is pushing Sara out of the way so Ava can take over.  

Are we sure Caity still has top billing? I wouldn't be surprised to see Jes ahead of her next season. I mean she gets more in the opening credits than Caity. 

It would be highly unusual for a billing change like that to happen at this point. But then again, the full interview Klemmer gave extolling the wonders of Jes and thanking God for her existence that was done back when she was first promoted to regular, and an official announcement of her contract renewal being released were both also highly unusual, the former being so much so I'd categorize it as surreal, so at this point I would not be surprised.

[lurker22]

I rolled my eyes hard when I heard the co-captain intro. I don't know, I just feel disrespected as a Sara fan, like she isn't good enough at her job and needed someone else to do it for her. And it stings even more when that someone else isn't even that good or deserving, IMO.

I wouldn't be surprised if the writers give Sara some permanent disability or something after her abduction to make her unable to remain the Captain. Or she comes back and sees how much Ava has bonded with the whole team, including the newbie, and just hands the full Captaincy over to Ava. Rehash of Rip in S2.

I've been disappointed and frustrated with every pre-season spoiler since S3 (and so far the seasons themselves have proven to be just as or more disappointing), but this S6 spoiler with the co-captain thing is the worst yet. Not only is Sara sidelined in general, she gets something that she's fought for and earned taken away from her. Not to be hyperbolic, but I feel like Sara's history, family, layers of complexity, and now her captaincy, have all been stripped away from her (and given to Ava), and now she's nothing but Ava's cheerleader. It's really sad to see what has become of my favorite character.

[Screamnastics]

The other disconcerting thing is Keto phrasing it as though being abducted is an adventure for Sara. That in combination with earlier comments that boiled Sara's problem with the abduction down to being separated from Ava makes it seem like this is going to be yet another instance of Sara only being treated like a human being with actual emotions and negative reactions to negative situations jussssst long enough to present Ava as her entire reason for being. Especially given how the aliens were described as monsters, this should be harrowing for Sara, but it's an "adventure." I'm tired of Sara being put through hell and it either being ignored or played off as a fairly light-hearted escapade for her. They did the same thing with her blindness and fifty other things over the years.

[Sakura12]

Sara's traumatic experiences only matter for how Ava reacts to them. Sara's thoughts and feelings don't matter. We just have to see Ava feel bad that Sara's suffering, not understand and then make it all about herself. So I expect the exact same thing here. Sara will have to put on a happy face, forget about her trauma to make sure Ava's okay. Sara's not allowed to feel anything that Ava doesn't understand or care about.

Even when Sara attempted to get a job with Rene because she thought that's what Ava wanted and Ava said she didn't want that anymore. The proper follow up to someone you supposedly love would be to ask if that's what they want. But nope, as long Ava got what she wants she doesn't care about Sara's feelings on the matter. 

Its even more sad that they even said Zari 1.0 would probably be better choice to take over in Sara's absence. But Klemmer thinks that having Ava (who he compared to Lucille Ball) is a great person to lead. No one in their right mind would let Lucy lead anything. So they basically confirmed that Ava's only in charge because he thinks its funny to have an incompetent, socially awkward robot leading the Legends. She was only made to be a rule following, ask no questions version of Sara. So Sara's basically in love with a robot version of herself who is trying to take over her life. 

[MarkHB]

15 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Its even more sad that they even said Zari 1.0 would probably be better choice to take over in Sara's absence. But Klemmer thinks that having Ava (who he compared to Lucille Ball) is a great person to lead. No one in their right mind would let Lucy lead anything. So they basically confirmed that Ava's only in charge because he thinks its funny to have an incompetent, socially awkward robot leading the Legends. She was only made to be a rule following, ask no questions version of Sara. So Sara's basically in love with a robot version of herself who is trying to take over her life. 

I think there's an important distinction to be made, and it goes back to what I said earlier about Sara now being the parent on a show about the kids.  Klemmer didn't compare Ava to Lucille Ball; he compared Jes to Lucille Ball.  The big outside-the-box talents Caity brings with her are movement-based: she's a dancer and a martial artist.  But, it's very rare nowadays for the Legends to actually be able to put those to use; I don't remember any fight scenes last season other than Crisis, the finale, and the Genghis Khan episode (which Caity directed).  But, one thing Caity doesn't notably bring to the table (not that she can't passably do it, but I don't think it's something for which a showrunner would say "I need Caity for this!") is being funny; it's just not one of her strengths and it's certainly nothing to do with what Caity signed up for in Arrow season 2.

Unfortunately, Legends has been written as a out-and-out comedy for several years now, so when they discover that Jes has the comedic chops Caity doesn't necessarily have, the producers are going to gravitate in that direction.  The aliens plot then gives them a way to let Caity do more ass-kicking (which I think she's been asking for) while the rest of the team are having wacky hijinks.

And for the co-captains thing, the alternative is centering the show around a leader smashing a subordinate, which brings its own ration of icky. Making Ava co-captain at least heads off the most basic levels of that complaint.

[Sakura12]

I don't think Jes has that great of comedic timing, I think she overreacts her comedic moments. 

Sara being the more serious of her team is what worked for me. You don't need everyone to be goofy all the time. Putting Ava in charge is like having a cat in charge of cats. Sara is a human herding cats that's what made it funny.

As for the subordinate, they are not a reconized government team so that doesn't matter. Sara is the leader because the team chose her to be. Ava has no reason to be the co-captain. So they are making it the only reason she is, is because she's Sara's girlfriend not because she's earned it. 

[statsgirl]

Caity Lotz wasn't the greatest of actresses back in 2013 when she debuted on Arrow. But she's developed a lot since then and now she can bring humour as well as pathos. She's more than just someone who is good in fight scenes.

And unlike Ava, I can see people following Sara into battle. With Ava, I'd always be worried that she would screw up and I'd get killed. If Klemmer wanted more comedy on the show, he should have kept Brandon Routh and given Dominic Purcell more to do. Both of them have great comedic timing.

11 hours ago, MarkHB said:

And for the co-captains thing, the alternative is centering the show around a leader smashing a subordinate, which brings its own ration of icky. Making Ava co-captain at least heads off the most basic levels of that complaint.

Almost all of these shows have a leader smashing a subordinate: Arrow, the Flash, and if Batwoman had continued as planned, I bet Ruby would have been with a subordinate too. The one show that didn't fit the mould is Supergirl the year Mon El was her love interest and there, like on LoT, Mon El became the hero of that season. And like with LoT, it split the fandom.

Is the choice having the leader sleeping with a love interest, or giving the love interest unearned status? When Rip told Sara that she should be the rightful captain, it made sense; it was earned. With Ava, it's been two seasons of the captain pushing her lover into the leadership role and the lover screwing it up. Based on her performance, Ava should be at the bottom of the leadership pole, not a co-captain. This is nepotism in the worst way.

Klemmer is Pygmalion, in love with his creation and lost to how it appears to others

Edited September 15, 2020 by statsgirl

[Sakura12]

13 hours ago, statsgirl said:

And unlike Ava, I can see people following Sara into battle. With Ava, I'd always be worried that she would screw up and I'd get killed

Or not care and leave you to face your fate alone. Like she was completely willing to do in the trapped on tv episode. It was Sara that had to remind her that they have a responsibility to the rest of the team and she couldn't just give up because she liked the fake world better. Ava is always about herself first. Which is why she makes a terrible Captain. I thought Rip was a selfish Captain too, however at least he was doing it for his wife and son. 

Sara was doing all the work to make Ava do the right thing while Ava got the credit as Captain. Sara shouldn't have to constantly remind Ava that she is responsible for the rest of team too, not just Sara and her. Sara also shouldn't have to continously praise Ava everytime she does the right thing or never let her deal with her failures. A co-captain is supposed to help not give her even more work and responsibilities. That makes it feel more like nepotism. 

Sara was fine being the Captain by herself and if anyone would be co-captain it should've been Zari 1.0. She at least would've earned it by being part of the team and showing she can lead. The writers admitted that, and that's probably the main reason they got rid of her. They needed Ava to be only choice. It shows how much they are trying to make Ava happen. Considering Klemmer has to constantly being her up when the questions have nothing do with her shows me that no one is asking about her. No one is asking about Ava's storylines, they are always asking about Sara's and that probably pisses him off.

I also don't think anyone thinks of the rest of the Legends as Sara's subordinates. Sara's the leader because the team is willing to listen to her and follow her. It's more like sports where Sara is the team captain. 

You need to have compassion to be a good leader and Ava doesn't have that nor does she understand that. She didn't even have compassion for the woman she supposedly loves. Rip saw that Sara has compassion for almost everyone even people that have tried to kill her and have killed her. She understands people and that the world isn't just good and bad. She's been on both sides and that's one of things that makes her a better leader than even some of the team leaders on other shows. 

[Screamnastics]

On 9/14/2020 at 1:01 PM, MarkHB said:

I think there's an important distinction to be made, and it goes back to what I said earlier about Sara now being the parent on a show about the kids.  Klemmer didn't compare Ava to Lucille Ball; he compared Jes to Lucille Ball.  The big outside-the-box talents Caity brings with her are movement-based: she's a dancer and a martial artist.  But, it's very rare nowadays for the Legends to actually be able to put those to use; I don't remember any fight scenes last season other than Crisis, the finale, and the Genghis Khan episode (which Caity directed).  But, one thing Caity doesn't notably bring to the table (not that she can't passably do it, but I don't think it's something for which a showrunner would say "I need Caity for this!") is being funny; it's just not one of her strengths and it's certainly nothing to do with what Caity signed up for in Arrow season 2.

Unfortunately, Legends has been written as a out-and-out comedy for several years now, so when they discover that Jes has the comedic chops Caity doesn't necessarily have, the producers are going to gravitate in that direction.  The aliens plot then gives them a way to let Caity do more ass-kicking (which I think she's been asking for) while the rest of the team are having wacky hijinks.

And for the co-captains thing, the alternative is centering the show around a leader smashing a subordinate, which brings its own ration of icky. Making Ava co-captain at least heads off the most basic levels of that complaint.

Caity has experience with comedy. She had more, in fact, than Jes did coming into Legends, so the question becomes why they thought to give more to Jes in the first place instead of utilizing their most popular actress. Caity can do comedic bits if they want her to, but for the most part they just. Don't. Some throwaway things here and there, but not whole showcases for it except for the Shatner impression. Which was well received by fans and critics and Shatner himself.

As for being in a relationship with a subordinate, not only is that a common feature in the Arrowverse, but it's a common thing across television. I find the idea of Sara being with another (non-Ava) team member to be a much more balanced power dynamic theoretically just based on her relationships with people and how she leads than what we've had with Sara and Ava from the start, first with Ava pursuing the Legends so doggedly that Sara had to drag Nate, Stein and Gideon into a semi-suicidal run at the Time Bureau ship just to complete a mission at one point, then with the Legends being treated as defacto subordinates of Ava's in S4 and not being paid despite doing all the heavy lifting for her even as she derails missions with her personal crap, and Sara being expected to act in service of protecting Ava's job 100% of the time or pay both professional and personal consequences until Sara begs for forgiveness. That's been pretty icky to me. If Ava can't handle following Sara's orders, that just further exposes the flaws in their relationship.

Though even if we accept it's problematic to have someone leading a team their girlfriend is on for the sake of argument, the obvious way to avoid this entirely would be to have never added Ava to the team at all. If an idea you come up with as writers only works if one of your star characters suffers and you have to undo something that was near universally considered to be one of the best decisions the show made in its attempts to find its footing, the smart thing to do is admit the idea is a bad one and drop it.

[Screamnastics]

If the only way we would have heard Sara acknowledge Quentin is alive was in the middle of a scene where Sara once again makes her pain about how hard it was for Ava, apologize to her and say she should have been there for Ava more, I'm actually very glad they cut it. The fact it was written and filmed in the first place, though...

Sara has issues, Sara prioritizes Ava's feelings while Ava blows Sara's off, and Sara apologizes. Ava has issues that have nothing to do with Sara, Ava takes it out on Sara every time while Sara drops everything again and again to baby her, and... Sara is the one who apologizes.

Thanks, show, I hate it.

[lurker22]

I don't even get why Sara is apologizing to Ava. How has it been hard for Ava? When Sara lost Oliver? Nope, Ava got jealous, but I wouldn't say it was hard for her. Ava wasn't there when Quentin came back, and neither Ava nor Sara seemed affected negatively by Sara's short, inconsequential blindness. And then Ava gets to play the perfect girlfriend and says she didn't mind it. What?! I'm glad the scene got cut.

And things are going to get worse, based on Caity's reply to an Avalance fan asking for more Avalance scenes (Caity said she's going to like next season). So even when Sara is taken away from the team, she's still stuck with Ava? I hope they don't write Sara having flashbacks/hallucinations with Ava and Ava only.

Ugh, this show.

[Sakura12]

She'll probably credit Ava for getting her through her time with the Aliens. Even though she survived plenty before Ava even existed. And I mean actually existed since Ava only was actived 5/6 years ago. 

The only hard time Ava had was when Sara died but that was like half second since she died shortly after. Otherwise Sara suffered through all the trauma while Ava reacted to Sara's trauma by making it about herself.

I don't think I even want to attempt to watch next season. 

 

[Starfish35]

I’m guessing this is referring to a deleted scene?  I couldn’t find it. 

But yeah, I’m starting to think maybe I should walk away now before it ends up ruining the whole show for me retroactively.  I ended up deleting my Tumblr account this weekend.  I just, yeah.  A lot of stressors going on right now. I love Sara and I love the show, or at least the non-Ava parts of it, but I’m starting to think maybe I should just let it go. *insert appropriate gif😂*

 

[Sakura12]

3 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

I’m guessing this is referring to a deleted scene?  I couldn’t find it. 

Yes, it's a deleted scene where Sara apologizes to Ava for having so many traumas and not being there more for her I honestly don't know how more she could've been there for Ava. She pretty much ignored all of her pain, issues and life changing events to make sure Ava was okay all the time.  

[Starfish35]

Can’t say I’m sorry that was deleted.  🤦🏻‍♀️

[Sakura12]

Me either. Sara basically made her whole life revolve around Ava. She's not allowed to talk about her family or other friends or lovers. She barely talks to her own team anymore. She had no reaction to Mick having a daughter, she didn't get to say goodbye to Ray, she didn't get to talk to Nora about their shared experiences being pawns of Mallus, I don't thinks he reacted to learning about John and Zari, she barley spoke to John even though he'd understand her trauma. 

She has been drinking a lot more, I'm going to fanwank that, that means she's not really as happy as she appears to be with Ava. 

[Screamnastics]

11 hours ago, lurker22 said:

So even when Sara is taken away from the team, she's still stuck with Ava? I hope they don't write Sara having flashbacks/hallucinations with Ava and Ava only.

Ugh, this show.

I think one of the first interviews to talk about Sara's abduction (briefly) made it out like the only problem on Sara's end would be being away from Ava (just Ava, no one else) and not, you know, generally being held captive by B-movie aliens, like Ava took a job elsewhere and it's just the struggles of a long-distance relationship for Sara or something (then it shifted the focus onto Ava and how she's going to cope as leader and Ava, Ava, Ava, Nate), so I expect something like that, unfortunately.

I mean if the aliens are more Mars Attacks than the types we've seen in the Arrowverse before, I can't see how we're truly going to see much of Sara's "adventure" or who she'd be interacting with. You can't get much meaningful material out of that. If we'd heard anything about fellow abductees or someone else she could really bounce off of, that would be one thing, but shooting starts soon and there's been nothing, so anyone there with her can't be significant or be considered a priority by the producers.

Pulling her away from the team already seems bad enough, but if it's Sara just fighting a bunch of monstrous CGI baddies and having Ava visions after fans begged for Sara to interact with other characters more last season and we know the writers heard it, I won't be able to conclude this is anything other than a very, very deliberate f***-you.

[Starfish35]

One thing I found frustrating was how Sara didn’t have any significant scenes with Zari 2.0.  Or Zari 1.0 when she reappeared, for that matter. I know Tala and Jes are apparently best friends, but Sara and Zari were friends.  It would have been nice to have something there. 😕

Honestly, I really will not at all be surprised if this ends up being Caity’s last season.

[Screamnastics]

2 hours ago, Featherhat said:

Does really life best friendship or not influence the writers much?

It depends on the actor, but they did spend multiple interviews last season talking about how excited they were to write Tala and Jes's friendship into the show more.

Caity's been pretty close to a few castmates over the years and the more she asked to have scenes with them, the more distance the writers put between Sara and their characters. Hell, she was actually living with Keiynan when he joined Legends, and Sara and Wally had, what, a single conversation? That lasted for fifteen seconds?

All the regulars and so many guest stars have mentioned how welcoming Caity is and that she's a leader on set, so if the writers do want to mimic real-life dynamics, they seem to have a very large blindspot. Well, nearly all the regulars have.

[Starfish35]

Bringing the discussion about clone!Sara over here.

I had a wild thought the other night that maybe the writers were pulling a Voltron on us, with Sara.  I mean, I know I shouldn’t get my hopes up, but I’m just going to throw it out there, even knowing it’s unlikely.

In Voltron (spoilers for those who haven’t seen it), Shiro disappears at the end of a battle.  Later we see him escape from an enemy outpost and be rescued by the team.  A couple seasons later, however, we find out that this is not the real Shiro, but a clone, who believes himself to be the real Shiro, until his mind is taken over by one of their enemies and he betrays the team.

There’s some differences of course - Sara already knows she is in a clone body.  But it might be interesting to discover that the real Sara is still alive and this Sara is a plant who only believes herself to be the real Sara.

 

[Sakura12]

I just find it weird how silent the producers and Caity are about this. They talked up Sara's "powers" last season and now we have a major change to Sara and nothing. Caity's only interview this season so far was about the episode she directed.

[Starfish35]

11 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I just find it weird how silent the producers and Caity are about this. They talked up Sara's "powers" last season and now we have a major change to Sara and nothing. Caity's only interview this season so far was about the episode she directed.

I agree with that - it is weird.

[Sakura12]

Is Sara immortal now?  She had a hole straight through her skull. But Bishop was going to incinerate her. So she's not like Deadpool, she can be killed or does Bishop not know what he created.

Does the milkshake thing mean anything and I'm going with milkshake over the cherries because that was a weird thing for Ava to pick from that. If Sara was obsessed with cherries she could've ordered a bowl of cherries, not keep drinking a whole milkshake with 1 or 2 cherries. But I guess we were supposed to go with it was the cherries even though it makes less sense. 

Do we think this will be fixed by the end of the season or will the clone/Alien hybrid marry Ava? 

I wouldn't mind them going the Doctor Who route where the clone stays and marries Ava and the real Sara goes off on her own adventures and meets someone else. 

[lurker22]

9 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I just find it weird how silent the producers and Caity are about this.

The producers are quiet, but Caity liked this article on Twitter, FWIW. 🤷‍♀️

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Is Sara immortal now?  She had a hole straight through her skull. But Bishop was going to incinerate her. So she's not like Deadpool, she can be killed or does Bishop not know what he created.

I feel like if you can kill her faster than she can regenerate, then she could be killed. But Sara seemed to be shocked at getting shot in the head, and showed no signs of pain when she was then shot multiple times. I know we've seen that she has a high tolerance for pain back on Arrow, but this is on another level. Did Bishop dial her pain receptors down completely, like he did with himself?