Law & Order Discussion Topic (2019 - 2021)

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I do wonder if she called him and got him to come to her house or if he just came uninvited, phone records would show if there had been any contact that day,

And now I'm imagining Abby and Lennie getting the phone records just for fun. 😉

[balmz]

based off jack's line 

You thought all that without ever actually speaking to him?

just for fun, what would you have thought if say the lady in hubris never met the murderer or went on a date or even talked to him but she still thought they had a connection and caused the jury to be deadlocked 

 

 

[Katy M]

49 minutes ago, balmz said:

just for fun, what would you have thought if say the lady in hubris never met the murderer or went on a date or even talked to him but she still thought they had a connection and caused the jury to be deadlocked 

I don't know that it would surprise me that much.  Think of all the people who think that they actually know celebrities without having a conversation with them. Or the much smaller percentage of people who have deluded themselves into thinking they're in relationships and stalk their celebrity of choice.  In the case of not actually talking to him, I would probably have a bit more sympathy with her in that she didn't actually break any rules.  She's allowed to come to whatever conclusion she comes to based on only info from the courtroom.

[Xeliou66]

7 hours ago, balmz said:

based off jack's line 

You thought all that without ever actually speaking to him?

just for fun, what would you have thought if say the lady in hubris never met the murderer or went on a date or even talked to him but she still thought they had a connection and caused the jury to be deadlocked 

 

 

It wouldn’t surprise me if a situation like that has happened. I would be disappointed with someone who based their verdict on that but I would have slightly more sympathy for her if that had been the case since she wouldn’t have broken any laws or rules. 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Xeliou66

[Xeliou66]

I watched Chosen today - great episode, it marked the introduction of Dworkin, who despite appearing in just 5 total episodes in the franchise (3 on the Mothership, 2 on SVU), he is one of the most memorable defense attorneys on the franchise. I love his episodes,  he was always extremely entertaining with his antics. In this episode I found Serena infuriating, she had a lot of nerve to basically accuse Jack of being anti Semitic, when all he did was point out Dworkin’s defense strategy and how it had no relevance to the murder and how absurd it was. Serena could really be whiny at times. 

I also hated Judge Miller, who was extremely biased towards the defendant because of his religion and politics, he was one of the worst judges in L&O history, I loved McCoy storming out of the room when Miller told him he could apologize or get a citation. 

I thought McCoy did a really good job prosecuting the case and I thought his question to the defendants wife about whether she would’ve thought Meeks’ murder was justified if he was Jewish was a great question, and her refusal to answer was telling. The bigots in this episode were the defendant and his wife, who thought that it was okay to kill someone to cover up theft if the money was going to help people in Israel. So Serena basically questioning whether Jack was a bigot really irritated me, she didn’t comment on the blatant bigotry of the killer and his wife. I didn’t think Jack should’ve even offered a man 2 plea, that was way too light for the defendants crime, and I’m glad it went to the jury and they convicted the killer.

I loved Arthur’s comments after Dworkin tried to get them to make a plea with his comment that the killer had a book of names of prominent people who were involved in his gambling - asking if anyone in the room had their name in the book and then telling them “then convict the SOB”, I liked Arthur’s colorful personality. 

Briscoe and Green were great as always, and any episode featuring them had an entertaining investigation.

It’s a great episode and I love Dworkin’s episodes, but Serena rubbed me the wrong way and I really disliked the killer, his wife and the judge.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

I watched Chosen today - great episode, it marked the introduction of Dworkin, who despite appearing in just 5 total episodes in the franchise (3 on the Mothership, 2 on SVU), he is one of the most memorable defense attorneys on the franchise.

I really liked another one of his episodes Thinking Makes it So.  That one was so thought-provoking.  i still say there was no really right or wrong on that one.  

[Xeliou66]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I really liked another one of his episodes Thinking Makes it So.  That one was so thought-provoking.  i still say there was no really right or wrong on that one.  

Agreed - I love Thinking Makes It So as well, very thought provoking and entertaining, probably the best episode of season 16. Dworkin’s a great character, always a pleasure to watch, I loved that SVU brought him back for 2 episodes a couple of years ago.

[Xeliou66]

I watched Four Cops Shot today on Sundance, really good episode, I especially liked how Van Buren got a lot of focus in this one - she was a great character who was all too often underused, she was great in this one, I really liked how she dealt with the captain of the officers who were killed, the captain was a dick for most of the episode but Van Buren handled the situation well and dealt with him diplomatically, it was a nice gesture by the captain to come to her office and apologize for his behavior towards the end of the episode. 

I also loved Van Buren’s speech to Lupo and Bernard when they were hesitant to turn over the officers log books to the DA’s, telling them to get over the fact that the cops made some mistakes and asking them what they were going to do if she died, turn her into a retroactive saint? That speech was great.

It was interesting that the log books that the detectives were hesitant to turn over turned out to be the final nail in Stokes’ coffin, as it proved he was lying about his motive for the murder. 

I liked the exchange between Connie and Bernard when Connie asked Bernard why he saved Stokes’ life if he wanted him dead, and Bernard said he wasn’t the executioner, and Rubirosa replied neither was she. 

I also liked McCoy telling the captain they don’t go forum shopping for harsher penalties and reminding the detectives they were supposed to be on the same side as the DA’s.

[balmz]

On 11/13/2020 at 3:17 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I watched Four Cops Shot today on Sundance, really good episode, I especially liked how Van Buren got a lot of focus in this one - she was a great character who was all too often underused, she was great in this one, I really liked how she dealt with the captain of the officers who were killed, the captain was a dick for most of the episode but Van Buren handled the situation well and dealt with him diplomatically, it was a nice gesture by the captain to come to her office and apologize for his behavior towards the end of the episode. 

I also loved Van Buren’s speech to Lupo and Bernard when they were hesitant to turn over the officers log books to the DA’s, telling them to get over the fact that the cops made some mistakes and asking them what they were going to do if she died, turn her into a retroactive saint? That speech was great.

 

I liked that episode too and van buren in it

 

this might be an unpopular opinion but i always preferred van buren over lennie tbh, shocking but here's why

with here she always had great lines and chemistry(with the exception of nina but that was more the poor writing of the season and nina's character) and was a very principled person, i always enjoyed episodes where she had a bigger focus

 

even the seasons where they did personal plots  for characters that a fair amount of fans disliked, i enjoyed her personal plots

 

for example, the competence episode was a good one or her filing a lawsuit because she didn't get promoted

I like how her plots generally involved the police or even the case of the episode, they generally weren't home life based, the lawsuit one was important as well and with blm in recent years it still holds up and is even more important(would be curious if the show was on how she would handle the blm and if she did the lawsuit then)

 

I also even found her cancer plot to be a good one though it was personal based, it was also very telling how even a decorated officer like her struggles with the money problems  of cancer and it also showcased the major issues in america's health care system without going over the top like svu does in recent years

 

[Xeliou66]

3 hours ago, balmz said:

I liked that episode too and van buren in it

 

this might be an unpopular opinion but i always preferred van buren over lennie tbh, shocking but here's why

with here she always had great lines and chemistry(with the exception of nina but that was more the poor writing of the season and nina's character) and was a very principled person, i always enjoyed episodes where she had a bigger focus

 

even the seasons where they did personal plots  for characters that a fair amount of fans disliked, i enjoyed her personal plots

 

for example, the competence episode was a good one or her filing a lawsuit because she didn't get promoted

I like how her plots generally involved the police or even the case of the episode, they generally weren't home life based, the lawsuit one was important as well and with blm in recent years it still holds up and is even more important(would be curious if the show was on how she would handle the blm and if she did the lawsuit then)

 

I also even found her cancer plot to be a good one though it was personal based, it was also very telling how even a decorated officer like her struggles with the money problems  of cancer and it also showcased the major issues in america's health care system without going over the top like svu does in recent years

 

I love Van Buren - she was an outstanding squad leader - firm but fair, unbiased and objective and just a very good character all around. 

I didn’t like the subplot of Van Buren suing the department because it went nowhere ultimately and just seemed forced in to the storyline. I was fine with Van Buren’s cancer storyline in season 20 and thought it was done well, and gave Van Buren some more material to work with. 

Van Buren had a lot of great lines and episodes over the years but I think Four Cops Shot might be my favorite episode for Van Buren, the way she handled the captain, the way she dealt with Lupo and Bernard, just the way she handled the whole situation was exemplary. 

[Chyromaniac]

On 11/21/2020 at 8:55 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I was fine with Van Buren’s cancer storyline in season 20 and thought it was done well, and gave Van Buren some more material to work with. 

My only regret is that if they had truly known that this had been the final season, then they could have used her benefit as like a series wrap party.  Everyone should have been there- at the very least her cops: Ed, Mike, Rey... even Fontana, Falco, and Cassady.  As for the ex-DA’s, I can’t imagine Jamie Ross would not have shown up- same with Carmichael.  Even Serena I thought had a decent enough relationship with Anita.  I’m not sure what Steven Hill’s health was like at the time, but Adam Schiff was such an important figure in the history of the show, it would have been nice to see him again too (and/or Nora).  Basically everyone who was not canonically dead should have been invited (except Branch- he could stay home).  Finally, they could have brought in a guest star to play Lennie’s surviving daughter- my preference would’ve been Jennifer Grey.

 I know that probably would have taken up more of the final episode time (and honestly that case of the week is pretty enjoyable as is), but overall I think it would have been worth it.

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, Chyromaniac said:

My only regret is that if they had truly known that this had been the final season, then they could have used her benefit as like a series wrap party.  Everyone should have been there- at the very least her cops: Ed, Mike, Rey... even Fontana, Falco, and Cassady.  As for the ex-DA’s, I can’t imagine Jamie Ross would not have shown up- same with Carmichael.  Even Serena I thought had a decent enough relationship with Anita.  I’m not sure what Steven Hill’s health was like at the time, but Adam Schiff was such an important figure in the history of the show, it would have been nice to see him again too (and/or Nora).  Basically everyone who was not canonically dead should have been invited (except Branch- he could stay home).  Finally, they could have brought in a guest star to play Lennie’s surviving daughter- my preference would’ve been Jennifer Grey.

 I know that probably would have taken up more of the final episode time (and honestly that case of the week is pretty enjoyable as is), but overall I think it would have been worth it.

I get what you’re saying but I’m glad it was more low key, it would’ve taken up a lot of time to get all of those characters to appear and I liked that L&O was always about the cases and the series finale was no different. I thought the way it was done was excellent, and having a ton of previous characters appearing might’ve made it distracting. 

I definitely agree that Logan, Curtis and Green would’ve been at the party if they were in NYC at the time, and maybe Fontana, Falco, and Cassady as well. But we know Curtis was living in California at the time, and who knows where Logan, Green and Fontana went to in their retirements, Cassady and Falco were probably still in the NYPD. As for the prosecutors, yeah I could definitely see Jamie, Abbie and Serena being there, the DA’s (Schiff, Nora and Branch) never had much interaction with Van Buren and didn’t know her well. 

And of course we can assume that these characters were there, they just weren’t shown, as we didn’t see everyone at the party.

And LOL at your comment about Branch, I take it he was your least favorite character. I liked Branch pretty good despite disagreeing with most of his politics. 

I did like the continuity that we got at various points of the show - such as seeing Curtis again in season 20 and getting an update on him, (that was really well done, I loved that they talked about Lennie and even referenced Morris Lamotte, the detective who was a minor character for a few seasons, apparently he was still in touch was Curtis and Van Buren), and I liked how McCoy talked to Schiff on the phone in season 19, it was nice to get an update on Schiff, like you said he was a huge part of the show and it was nice to find out he was in Africa with Jimmy Carter. I wish we had gotten an update on Green at some point though.

[BW Manilowe]

Last night, whichever network has the Monday evening repeats aired “The Family Hour” again (The divorced wife of a former US Senator & Presidential Candidate was a murder.victim—the Politico’s the very prominent head of a massively dysfunctional family; he was played by Harry Hamlin [with dark hair]. At the end, after having the trial adjudicated by a totally bizarro Judge who apparently had never judged in Criminal Court, Judge Dilwyn (Jeffrey Tambor), Hamlin’s character was found guilty of murdering his daughter, who was also discovered to have killed the original murder victim, who was her stepmother. The courtroom broke out into chaos, & among other things Hamlin’s character started screaming he was gonna get Judge Dilwyn for his conviction. How could he hold Dilwyn responsible? He was the Judge; he wasn’t on the Jury. About all he had to do was listen to the evidence, render stuff overruled or sustained, then read the verdict as rendered by the Jury.

Edited December 2, 2020 by BW Manilowe
To change the day of the week.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, BW Manilowe said:

Last night, whichever network has the Tuesday evening repeats aired “The Family Hour” again (The divorced wife of a former US Senator & Presidential Candidate was a murder.victim—the Politico’s the very prominent head of a massively dysfunctional family; he was played by Harry Hamlin [with dark hair]. At the end, after having the trial adjudicated by a totally bizarro Judge who apparently had never judged in Criminal Court, Judge Dilwyn (Jeffrey Tambor), Hamlin’s character was found guilty of murdering his daughter, who was also discovered to have killed the original murder victim, who was her stepmother. The courtroom broke out into chaos, & among other things Hamlin’s character started screaming he was gonna get Judge Dilwyn for his conviction. How could he hold Dilwyn responsible? He was the Judge; he wasn’t on the Jury. About all he had to do was listen to the evidence, render stuff overruled or sustained, then read the verdict as rendered by the Jury.

I actually remember that moment. I assumed it was just a final demonstration of how Hamlin's character believed he had the power and right to do whatever he wanted, and might continue to believe that for the rest of his life in prison (or however long was his sentence).

[BW Manilowe]

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I actually remember that moment. I assumed it was just a final demonstration of how Hamlin's character believed he had the power and right to do whatever he wanted, and might continue to believe that for the rest of his life in prison (or however long was his sentence).

I can see that (especially these days for real). By the way, yesterday was actually Monday; today’s Tuesday. I fixed it in my original post but it’s still wrong in your quote. Just saying; it doesn’t matter if you fix that or not.

[Xeliou66]

6 hours ago, BW Manilowe said:

Last night, whichever network has the Tuesday evening repeats aired “The Family Hour” again (The divorced wife of a former US Senator & Presidential Candidate was a murder.victim—the Politico’s the very prominent head of a massively dysfunctional family; he was played by Harry Hamlin [with dark hair]. At the end, after having the trial adjudicated by a totally bizarro Judge who apparently had never judged in Criminal Court, Judge Dilwyn (Jeffrey Tambor), Hamlin’s character was found guilty of murdering his daughter, who was also discovered to have killed the original murder victim, who was her stepmother. The courtroom broke out into chaos, & among other things Hamlin’s character started screaming he was gonna get Judge Dilwyn for his conviction. How could he hold Dilwyn responsible? He was the Judge; he wasn’t on the Jury. About all he had to do was listen to the evidence, render stuff overruled or sustained, then read the verdict as rendered by the Jury.

 

4 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I actually remember that moment. I assumed it was just a final demonstration of how Hamlin's character believed he had the power and right to do whatever he wanted, and might continue to believe that for the rest of his life in prison (or however long was his sentence).

Yes I wondered about that as well - Dilwyn, while incompetent, wasn’t at fault for Bailey’s conviction, I think it was just Bailey ranting at anyone he could because he had always been able to get away with his despicable behavior and couldn’t anymore. 

The Family Hour is a really interesting episode with a lot to discuss from it - I like the episode and think it’s one of season 17’s best and arguably the most entertaining of that season although it was somewhat sensational. 

The one thing I wondered was how come no one caught ME Rodgers error in mixing up the book when testifying, it would seem like the defense lawyer would’ve double checked the facts regarding Rodgers testimony, and since the trial was covered heavily by the media it seems like someone would’ve noticed that Rodgers named the wrong book. And it seems like that if someone noticed after the trial, Bailey would have grounds for a possible appeal. I sided with Jack in that I thought they should’ve disclosed Rodgers mistake to the judge, I understood both sides but I sided with Jack. I did like Rubirosa’s closing argument and it was nice to see her deliver one, I think it was the first and only time in L&O history we saw a second chair give a closing argument.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, BW Manilowe said:

By the way, yesterday was actually Monday; today’s Tuesday. I fixed it in my original post but it’s still wrong in your quote. Just saying; it doesn’t matter if you fix that or not.

Well, this morning and tomorrow morning are/were both Wednesday mornings for me this week, and, although I did manage to get part of a Tuesday afternoon, I don't think any editing is going to get me back my Tuesday morning. LOL But thanks for looking out for us WRT Pandemic Time Creep. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

The one thing I wondered was how come no one caught ME Rodgers error in mixing up the book when testifying, it would seem like the defense lawyer would’ve double checked the facts regarding Rodgers testimony, and since the trial was covered heavily by the media it seems like someone would’ve noticed that Rodgers named the wrong book. And it seems like that if someone noticed after the trial, Bailey would have grounds for a possible appeal.

Didn't Rodgers error get corrected before the end of the trial? 

[Xeliou66]

35 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Well, this morning and tomorrow morning are/were both Wednesday mornings for me this week, and, although I did manage to get part of a Tuesday afternoon, I don't think any editing is going to get me back my Tuesday morning. LOL But thanks for looking out for us WRT Pandemic Time Creep. 

 

 

Didn't Rodgers error get corrected before the end of the trial? 

No it didn’t - Rodgers went to McCoy and Rubirosa and told them about her error, but Branch told them not to disclose it to the judge or the defense, saying it wasn’t relevant and he wasn’t going to give a break to Bailey. McCoy disagreed with him on it and said he was going to the judge, resulting in Branch removing McCoy from the case and having Rubirosa deliver the closing argument. So Rodgers error wasn’t known by the defense, which is what I’m saying seemed odd, it seems like defense attorney Glover would’ve double checked the facts of Rodgers testimony, or that Bailey, a big fan of crime novels, might remember she named the wrong book and tell his lawyer, or since the trial was so heavily publicized someone in the media or someone following the case would know Rodgers made a mistake. And it seems like if it was figured out, Bailey would have an issue that he could appeal his conviction on. 

[shapeshifter]

8 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

No it didn’t - Rodgers went to McCoy and Rubirosa and told them about her error, but Branch told them not to disclose it to the judge or the defense, saying it wasn’t relevant and he wasn’t going to give a break to Bailey. McCoy disagreed with him on it and said he was going to the judge, resulting in Branch removing McCoy from the case and having Rubirosa deliver the closing argument. So Rodgers error wasn’t known by the defense, which is what I’m saying seemed odd, it seems like defense attorney Glover would’ve double checked the facts of Rodgers testimony, or that Bailey, a big fan of crime novels, might remember she named the wrong book and tell his lawyer, or since the trial was so heavily publicized someone in the media or someone following the case would know Rodgers made a mistake. And it seems like if it was figured out, Bailey would have an issue that he could appeal his conviction on. 

Ah. Yes. But then didn’t Rubirosa manage to make Rodgers’ incorrect testimony not crucial to the conviction? Or would that not matter WRT a mistrial being called anyway?

[Xeliou66]

2 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Ah. Yes. But then didn’t Rubirosa manage to make Rodgers’ incorrect testimony not crucial to the conviction? Or would that not matter WRT a mistrial being called anyway?

Rubirosa didn’t use Rodgers testimony or the book specifically in her closing, but she say something like Bailey’s defense was ripped from what has been a staple of crime fiction. I’m not saying that his conviction would be overturned if they discovered Rodgers error, but he could raise the issue in an appeal. I don’t think a mistrial would’ve been declared if they explained Rodgers error to Judge Dilwyn, he probably just would’ve issued a clarification to the jury telling them to disregard Rodgers testimony about the book (then again, considering the judge, who the hell knows what he would’ve done). I agreed with Jack that they’ve should’ve notified the judge about it, I understood where Arthur and Connie were coming from but I thought Jack’s position was right. I did like Connie’s closing argument. 

[shapeshifter]

2.9 "Renunciation" (11/19/1991) is airing on Bounce, in which

Quote

A school teacher and a teenaged student, with whom she was having a secret affair, are quick to blame one another for the hit-and-run death of her husband, and detectives must determine which of them is the true person responsible.

The victim is a sports fan with a little dog is named "O.J.," presumably after O.J. Simpson, whom my mother used to cheer on in 1991 (well before the murder of his wife June 12, 1994).

Not only is the cute little dog's name a discordant note to us now, but the episode is also about a spouse killing.  

[Xeliou66]

I watched Black White and Blue today, and while I like this episode a lot, the cops who deliberately dumped the kid in a dangerous area deserved a much harsher prison sentence IMO. They abused their authority in an atrocious way, basically abducting the kid and dumping him in a dangerous area where he was killed all because they were butthurt he insulted them. Fuck those cops, they were scum, they deserved a much harsher sentence, and I’ve always been puzzled as to why McCoy wasn’t more all in on prosecuting them for murder - usually McCoy was all for harshly prosecuting those who abused their authority, here he acted like he didn’t think they could win and so he wanted to make a deal with them, while Schiff wanted them convicted of murder. I was 100% with Schiff and thought the cops should’ve gotten a MUCH harsher sentence than 3-9 years. Schiff was rightfully upset in that episode. 

I liked the investigation in the first half of that episode, it was very good and I liked how Van Buren got a heavier role.

 

Season 10 is arguably my favorite season - it has my favorite cast lineup and a lot of great episodes - I thought Mega was weak and I was somewhat disappointed with aspects of the SVU crossover Entitled, other than that every episode was really good. 

[BW Manilowe]

Speaking of the “Mega” episode... Some of you might remember that, quite awhile ago, I posted a question/got into a brief discussion about something I didn’t understand (at the time) about the episode with posters either here or on 1 of the previous boards to this. I wondered how Annette O’Toole’s character could’ve pleaded out & gotten 6 life sentences (meaning she should’ve been jailed, like her husband) for her part in the helicopter crash that was the basis for the central case in the show, but still been free to have that (near)-ending discussion with Abbie & Jack about how she did what she did & managed to stay free at what appeared to be her home.

I finally have the answer; I paid VERY close attention to the ending last night (more than I apparently was before). Basically, I got Annette O’Toole’s character confused with the other major female guest character. It was the Maggie Callister character who got the 6 life sentences; not Annette O’Toole’s character. Annette O’Toole’s character apparently got off free as a bird. The Maggie Callister character was married to 1 of the guys who died in the helicopter. She & her husband were followers of the “increase your financial wealth” sort of cult run by Annette O’Toole’s & Michael McKean’s characters. Maggie Callister gave her husband 1 of those nice “accessory” boxes men put their stuff in, as he was leaving on a trip; only Michael McKean’s character had put dynamite in it because Maggie Callister’s husband was planning to leave the “financial cult” (I think) & take all his money back with him, which Michael McKean’s character couldn’t let happen & Mrs. Callister apparently didn’t want to happen. So he killed Mr. Callister & the others on the helicopter were “collateral damage”.

Edited December 12, 2020 by BW Manilowe
To fix spacing.

[Xeliou66]

I found Mega to be very confusing and not the most compelling of episodes, and I especially found it off that what would be a huge case - a helicopter being blown up and crashing in the waters off of NYC, was treated as just an ordinary case - there were no other agencies involved offering help like there were in other episodes with big cases, very few people at the crime scene, no media coverage, Van Buren wasn’t very involved, neither was Schiff, something about it just felt off to me. We saw more media coverage of the case in Black White and Blue where there were a ton of reporters outside the courthouse grilling Jack and Abbie and the mayor calling Schiff. Usually the show did a good job with cases that would be very high profile, but with Mega they dropped the ball.

[Xeliou66]

I watched Rumble tonight, I love this episode, really interesting - I found myself agreeing with McCoy’s decision to charge the rioters as terrorists, as they did terrorize the public and killed an innocent person. I found the plea bargain at the end to be a fair resolution to a complex case - they couldn’t tell which defendants participated in murdering people, aside from the 3 they had on video murdering the one guy, so it was a fair sentence that the 3 on video got 20 to life and everyone else got 10 years.

I agreed with McCoy that a point needed to be made, but I thought Cutter and Lupo made some decent points as well, and I found it interesting how Lupo clashed with McCoy over the case and wouldn’t testify on their behalf. 

All of the courtroom scenes were very good and it was interesting how McCoy watched from the gallery, we rarely saw the DA in the courtroom. I liked how McCoy despite being out of the courtroom still had his passion for justice as the DA. I liked Cutter and McCoy’s interactions in this episode, and I thought they both made good points.

While she didn’t get a big role in the episode, I liked how Van Buren reminded the victim’s brother he wasn’t in his firehouse when he banged on her desk, Van Buren had a firm but in control style that I really liked. 

And I liked the touch at the end with the reporter asking McCoy if he had been asked to join the new Obama administration.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Xeliou66

[Xeliou66]

I watched Bodies from season 14 tonight - and this is one of the only times in the series I was on the opposite side of the main characters in that I didn’t think Schwimmer should’ve been punished for not revealing the location of the bodies. He was stupid for going to the location where Bruner kept the bodies, wherever it was, but what Bruner told him was protected by lawyer-client privilege, and he was right to not tell and stand by his principles. The whole prosecution of him was based on emotion and outrage, not the law, and I think Schwimmer’s conviction would be overturned on appeal. As Schwimmer pointed out, the justice system could only function because of principles like attorney-client privilege, I thought Schwimmer was right and I was disappointed in the DA’s for prosecuting him. 

Bruner was one of the most chilling, evil killers in L&O history, a pure sociopath and even his appearance and mannerisms were creepy. Briscoe and Green visiting him in his dump of a residence and him pulling out the knife and wheel of cheese is quite a memorable scene. 

I was surprised the judge allowed Jessica Sheets, Bruner’s original attorney, to resign from the case without a specific reason, I don’t think Bruner had threatened her but I guess she just couldn’t represent Bruner because she was terrified of him and couldn’t communicate with him. 

[Spartan Girl]

On 12/30/2020 at 8:38 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I watched Bodies from season 14 tonight - and this is one of the only times in the series I was on the opposite side of the main characters in that I didn’t think Schwimmer should’ve been punished for not revealing the location of the bodies. He was stupid for going to the location where Bruner kept the bodies, wherever it was, but what Bruner told him was protected by lawyer-client privilege, and he was right to not tell and stand by his principles. The whole prosecution of him was based on emotion and outrage, not the law, and I think Schwimmer’s conviction would be overturned on appeal. As Schwimmer pointed out, the justice system could only function because of principles like attorney-client privilege, I thought Schwimmer was right and I was disappointed in the DA’s for prosecuting him. 

Bruner was one of the most chilling, evil killers in L&O history, a pure sociopath and even his appearance and mannerisms were creepy. Briscoe and Green visiting him in his dump of a residence and him pulling out the knife and wheel of cheese is quite a memorable scene. 

I was surprised the judge allowed Jessica Sheets, Bruner’s original attorney, to resign from the case without a specific reason, I don’t think Bruner had threatened her but I guess she just couldn’t represent Bruner because she was terrified of him and couldn’t communicate with him. 

Maybe Jack went too far on that one, but I don’t have one iota of sympathy for Schwimmer. He was an arrogant opportunistic prick who was, to quote Arthur, “dumber than stupid”. He was clearly thrilled to represent a serial killer before he knew what it meant and the fact that he scoped out the bodies out of “curiosity” makes my skin crawl. He obviously didn’t give a shit about the victims or the were if families but willing to fall on his sword for his legal principles?! FUCK him. If he had one ounce of compassion or remorse for his actions he would have given up the location because legal privilege or not IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

And fuck Serena for once again going soft on an asshole, despite the fact that he’d pretty much been sexually harassing her for the first part of the episode. No, bitch, you did not “misjudge” him. An asshole is still an asshole.

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:Maybe Jack went too far on that one, but I don’t have one iota of sympathy for Schwimmer. He was an arrogant opportunistic prick who was, to quote Arthur, “dumber than stupid”. He was clearly thrilled to represent a serial killer before he knew what it meant and the fact that he scoped out the bodies out of “curiosity” makes my skin crawl. He obviously didn’t give a shit about the victims or the were if families but willing to fall on his sword for his legal principles?! FUCK him. If he had one ounce of compassion or remorse for his actions he would have given up the location because legal privilege or not IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

And fuck Serena for once again going soft on an asshole, despite the fact that he’d pretty much been sexually harassing her for the first part of the episode. No, bitch, you did not “misjudge” him. An asshole is still an asshole.

Schwimmer was stupid to go to the location of Bruner’s dump site, and yeah he did seem enthusiastic about representing Bruner and was somewhat of a prick, I’m just saying I think he was right to not disclose the location of the bodies. The justice system can only work if people uphold basic principles such as attorney-client privilege. When you start making exceptions to that, the whole justice system falls apart. Schwimmer may not have been a sympathetic character but he was right in his decision and he was only convicted because of emotion, not based on any facts. I think his conviction would be overturned on appeal.

[Spartan Girl]

He still at the very least deserves to be a pariah for the rest of his life.

[GHScorpiosRule]

On 1/1/2021 at 11:04 AM, Spartan Girl said:

If he had one ounce of compassion or remorse for his actions he would have given up the location because legal privilege or not IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

But that’s just it. He was bound by the attorney-client privilege, which means he couldn’t reveal the location. Even if it was the right thing to do. Otherwise no client would tell their attorney everything, which would prevent them from zealousy defending their clients with all information. Not to mention no one would tell their attorney anything if it was they thought the attorney would violate the privilege.

That’s how our Justice system is set up/works.

Now if Schwimmer had been an accomplice/witness and refused to reveal the location-then the argument of “the right thing to do” is more appropriate.

 

[Katy M]

When I was in college we learned about a real life case where the lawyer revealed the whereabouts of corpses he learned under privilege.  He waited until after the trial and his client was convicted, but he was still disbarred because he may have ruined appeals.

What I don't agree with is an episode of Close to Home I saw where basically the same thing happened, but instead of a corpse, the lawyer discovered a woman tied up in a barn.  Of course he should be able to save that woman's life. And if not, to heck with your law license, do the right thing. And, realistically, I do think that would be one of the exceptions to privilege, which do exist.  Such as future crimes aren't covered.

[Spartan Girl]

56 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

But that’s just it. He was bound by the attorney-client privilege, which means he couldn’t reveal the location. Even if it was the right thing to do. Otherwise no client would tell their attorney everything, which would prevent them from zealousy defending their clients with all information. Not to mention no one would tell their attorney anything if it was they thought the attorney would violate the privilege.

That’s how our Justice system is set up/works.

Now if Schwimmer had been an accomplice/witness and refused to reveal the location-then the argument of “the right thing to do” is more appropriate.

 

Believe me, I get it. As much as I hate it when defendants abuse this privilege, like Bruner obviously did, I get it.

And maybe if Scwimmer was actually written as a naive inexperienced defense attorney who had no idea what the hell he was doing, I’d be more inclined to sympathy.

But I just can’t buy him looking at the body’s location because he was “just curious”. Not after we saw him practically drooling over the idea of defending a vicious serial killer and wanting all of the fame without any of the consequences. “Confirming the location” my foot. What kind of person would actually WANT  to check out the bodies knowing that they may be the daughters of those dozens of grieving parents wanting so desperately to bury them?! And afterward, knowing that (unintentionally or not) you’re helping their killer torment them for the rest of their lives by denying them that closure?! There’s no justification for that. None. Even if you’re legally in the right.

Had he not been such a pretentious jackass he would have realized that he didn’t need to confirm the location anyway. Brunner obviously had no intention of giving it up no matter what Jack offered. Instead the moron pretty much let his client take him down with him. 

Had Schwimmer expressed more remorse instead of clutching his pearls and not acted like violating privilege was ten times worse than the families suffering, maybe I would have hated him less.

Edited January 3, 2021 by Spartan Girl

[Scarlett45]

25 minutes ago, Katy M said:

What I don't agree with is an episode of Close to Home I saw where basically the same thing happened, but instead of a corpse, the lawyer discovered a woman tied up in a barn.  Of course he should be able to save that woman's life. And if not, to heck with your law license, do the right thing.

Well kidnapping is an ongoing crime- so if an attorney finds/discloses a location of a kidnapped person based on information their client told them, they wouldn’t be disbarred for violating attorney/client privilege. 
 

On 1/1/2021 at 12:14 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Schwimmer may not have been a sympathetic character but he was right in his decision and he was only convicted because of emotion, not based on any facts. I think his conviction would be overturned on appeal.

This I agree with. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Believe me, I get it. As much as I hate it when defendants abuse this privilege, like Bruner obviously did, I get it.

And maybe if Scwimmer was actually written as a naive inexperienced defense attorney who had no idea what the hell he was doing, I’d be more inclined to sympathy.

But I just can’t buy him looking at the body’s location because he was “just curious”. Not after we saw him practically drooling over the idea of defending a vicious serial killer and wanting all of the fame without any of the consequences. “Confirming the location” my foot. What kind of person would actually WANT  to check out the bodies knowing that they may be the daughters of those dozens of grieving parents wanting so desperately to bury them?! And afterward, knowing that (unintentionally or not) you’re helping their killer torment them for the rest of their lives by denying them that closure?! There’s no justification for that. None. Even if you’re legally in the right.

Had he not been such a pretentious jackass he would have realized that he didn’t need to confirm the location anyway. Brunner obviously had no intention of giving it up no matter what Jack offered. Instead the moron pretty much let his client take him down with him. 

Had Schwimmer expressed more remorse instead of clutching his pearls and not acted like violating privilege was ten times worse than the families suffering, maybe I would have hated him less.

Now we know that not all TV Defense lawyers can be Perry Mason, Ruthie Miller, or William Kunstler( though he wasn’t fictional and played himself on this show). In fiction generally, and this show specifically, we’ve had Melnick, that mafia lawyer who conspired with his clients played by Someone Margolis, and the ambitious ones. I just lump Schwimmer in with the latter lot.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

Well kidnapping is an ongoing crime- so if an attorney finds/discloses a location of a kidnapped person based on information their client told them, they wouldn’t be disbarred for violating attorney/client privilege. 

Yeah, I know. that's why the Close to Home episode bugged me.  I think he ended up leaving her in there for another day before he "violated his ethics" and I think he did end up getting in trouble over it.

[Xeliou66]

In the episode Married With Children, which I just saw, I am not sure if Renee deserved to be convicted of murder 2, while I do think she pushed her ex off the balcony in anger and it killed her and she deserved to go to prison for it, I think a manslaughter conviction might’ve been more appropriate given the circumstances. The whole tragedy would’ve been averted if Renee and Lisa had been allowed to get married, fortunately a situation like this wouldn’t happen today with the legalization of gay marriage, making this one of the only L&O episodes that feels dated. It was a good episode but it was very tragic how the little girl, the adopted daughter of Lisa and Renee, would likely have to go into foster care, since Lisa’s parents didn’t want her apparently, Renee’s parents should’ve been allowed to take custody of the little girl. It showed how unfair the laws were then, I loved Judge Bradley calling the statute a “backwards redneck statute”, Judge Bradley was one of my favorite judges.

Serena and Arthur naturally clashed, they really didn’t like each other at all and it was noticeable in this episode, did anyone else notice how Serena called Arthur “sir”? The prosecutors almost always called each other by their first names, so that was noticeable to me, showed how Serena wasn’t at all close to Arthur (though she did call him by his first name in a couple of episodes). But the 2 of them really never got along and it was noticeable in this episode. And this episode was another slight hint that Serena was gay, she was very sympathetic to the defendant and to the gay rights movement. 

The investigation was good as always and I liked how it played out, with the twist of the victim not having a sister and all and I enjoy any Briscoe/Green investigation, their chemistry was outstanding, they were an awesome detective pairing.

Edited January 6, 2021 by Xeliou66

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

The whole tragedy would’ve been averted if Renee and Lisa had been allowed to get married, fortunately a situation like this wouldn’t happen today with the legalization of gay marriage, making this one of the only L&O episodes that feels dated.

I wonder if any direct links could be drawn between someone who watched this episode and how that viewer somehow helped bring about the legalization of gay marriage——even if just having voted for it based on this episode. There are other L&O episodes that have elicited very visceral reactions about other controversial topics that might have also helped bring about legislative change. It is, after all, a show about “law.”

[Scarlett45]

On 1/6/2021 at 3:43 AM, shapeshifter said:

I wonder if any direct links could be drawn between someone who watched this episode and how that viewer somehow helped bring about the legalization of gay marriage——even if just having voted for it based on this episode. There are other L&O episodes that have elicited very visceral reactions about other controversial topics that might have also helped bring about legislative change. It is, after all, a show about “law.”

I am not sure. That was a very sad episode, even more sad that Lisa maliciously kept the little girl from Renée because she COULD (given they weren’t both legally parents). I can understand the visceral anger Renée felt and how that could lead her to push her off the balcony - I haven’t seen this episode in a while, Renée didn’t mean to kill her right? It was an accident? If so manslaughter would’ve been appropriate. 
 

Likely the girl would’ve gone to whomever Lisa listed as a potential legal guardian in her will, which would’ve been Renée until the split. Damn sad. 
 

Same Sex marriage legislation came a long way with the strategy of playing to heteronormative sympathies and family structures, so I could see it having an impact. 
 

There are several L&O episodes that feel dated sometimes for those of us that came into adulthood with camera phones, I often wonder “why didn’t they just call each other?” Or “why didn’t they take a photo?”........

[shapeshifter]

14 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I often wonder “why didn’t they just call each other?”

Yeah, in the 90s it was still a toll call to the next town over, and cell phone plans had limited minutes. 

 

"Wager" (3/30/1994,  Season 4 / Episode 18) just re-aired, in which: 

Quote

Detectives Lennie Briscoe and Mike Logan will wager against one another that the brutal killing of a star athlete's father is connected to a series of costly gambling debts and vicious threats to the baseball player's family.

It's not a favorite, but I had it on while packing and noticed there's a great scene near the beginning in which Lennie shoots pool with a suspect.
The guy had wanted to play for $100 but Lennie said just $10 because he's on a cop's salary.
Lennie cleans the guys clock, so to speak, and then tucks the ten spot in the guy's pocket for the information. 

Lot of good guest too, but I just don't care for sports or gambling stories. 

Back to my packing.

[ML89]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

Yeah, in the 90s it was still a toll call to the next town over, and cell phone plans had limited minutes. 

 

"Wager" (3/30/1994,  Season 4 / Episode 18) just re-aired, in which: 

It's not a favorite, but I had it on while packing and noticed there's a great scene near the beginning in which Lennie shoots pool with a suspect.
The guy had wanted to play for $100 but Lennie said just $10 because he's on a cop's salary.
Lennie cleans the guys clock, so to speak, and then tucks the ten spot in the guy's pocket for the information. 

Lot of good guest too, but I just don't care for sports or gambling stories. 

Back to my packing.

I love that part of the ep - Orbach was a known pool expert in real life and I love how Mike is talking to the witness and then just watches Lennie run the table.

[Xeliou66]

3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I am not sure. That was a very sad episode, even more sad that Lisa maliciously kept the little girl from Renée because she COULD (given they weren’t both legally parents). I can understand the visceral anger Renée felt and how that could lead her to push her off the balcony - I haven’t seen this episode in a while, Renée didn’t mean to kill her right? It was an accident? If so manslaughter would’ve been appropriate. 
 

Likely the girl would’ve gone to whomever Lisa listed as a potential legal guardian in her will, which would’ve been Renée until the split. Damn sad. 
 

Same Sex marriage legislation came a long way with the strategy of playing to heteronormative sympathies and family structures, so I could see it having an impact. 
 

There are several L&O episodes that feel dated sometimes for those of us that came into adulthood with camera phones, I often wonder “why didn’t they just call each other?” Or “why didn’t they take a photo?”........

I think Renee probably meant to kill Lisa when she pushed her, given the amount of force she used to push her. It wasn’t premeditated but I don’t think the death was an accident, based on what the forensic experts said. Like I say, it’s a tough case and I’m not sure what the best sentence for Renee would be. 

The real tragedy of the case was about the little girl and that she would have to go into foster care, instead of going to live with Renee’s parents. 

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Yeah, in the 90s it was still a toll call to the next town over, and cell phone plans had limited minutes. 

 

"Wager" (3/30/1994,  Season 4 / Episode 18) just re-aired, in which: 

It's not a favorite, but I had it on while packing and noticed there's a great scene near the beginning in which Lennie shoots pool with a suspect.
The guy had wanted to play for $100 but Lennie said just $10 because he's on a cop's salary.
Lennie cleans the guys clock, so to speak, and then tucks the ten spot in the guy's pocket for the information. 

Lot of good guest too, but I just don't care for sports or gambling stories. 

Back to my packing.

I love Lennie playing pool in Wager, that’s an awesome moment!! 

[Scarlett45]

3 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

I think Renee probably meant to kill Lisa when she pushed her, given the amount of force she used to push her. It wasn’t premeditated but I don’t think the death was an accident, based on what the forensic experts said. Like I say, it’s a tough case and I’m not sure what the best sentence for Renee would be. 

The real tragedy of the case was about the little girl and that she would have to go into foster care, instead of going to live with Renee’s parents. 

Thank you for responding. Very very sad.

[Xeliou66]

Season 15 is on WE today, this season is the season where I believe the writing started to drop in quality a little bit, seasons 15-17 were the weakest L&O seasons IMO, that’s not to say they were bad, they were still very good and entertaining, just not quite up to the outstanding quality of most of the rest of L&O. Besides the writing being a bit weaker I’m not a big fan of Fontana, all too often he behaved like a totally fascist asshole who believed having a badge gave him the right to do whatever he wanted to.

I saw Cut, the episode with the negligent plastic surgeon, and I was puzzled as to why McCoy was hesitant to go after him at first, it felt forced just to give the prosecutors some disagreement, usually McCoy would be ready to take on someone like that. I like the episode though, and I liked Arthur’s fiery speech about why he wanted the surgeon prosecuted. It was interesting how the doctor went to McCoy alone at the end in a panic, that wasn’t something we saw often. 

[balmz]

heh who knew that jerry was a cop in a little gnown film called

 

A Gnome Named Gnorm (1990) also called upworld

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMMGl8hMuGc&feature=youtu.be

 

 

[Xeliou66]

I watched Invaders tonight, while I never cared much for Borgia (she was my least favorite ADA and I thought she had no personality and no chemistry with the rest of the cast), her brutal murder was sad and I completely understood McCoy’s anger and outrage, the 2 scumbags that killed Borgia and several other people were 2 of the most brutal psychopathic killers on the show.

I really liked the scene between McCoy and Branch right after Borgia’s body was found - both were clearly very emotional and rattled, Branch was the most shaken I can ever recall him being, but it wasn’t overboard or melodramatic. Really well done scene I thought.  

I completely understood why McCoy staged the sham prosecution, and in the end using the corrupt DEA agent as bait did lead them to the killers, although the corrupt agent was killed in the process. I’m not sure if the sham prosecution was ethical or not, but I kind of think McCoy was right to go forward that way. I liked the scene at the end between him and Branch as well, where Arthur says they made it personal (he was correct) and Jack replies “nature of the beast”, it was a good scene.

While overall Fontana was not one of my favorite characters, I liked him ramming the car into the killers car in the chase scene, that was a good final scene for Fontana as that was his last episode, with him retiring before the next season. 

In the very first scene where the family is being held hostage in their apartment and the mom begs the other woman to take her daughter for the day, the other woman was totally oblivious not to notice something was off from the start IMO. 

I’ve said before seasons 15-17 were something of a decline in the quality overall of the show (although 15-17 are still much better than 99% of the garbage on TV), there were still compelling and thought provoking episodes in those seasons, and I liked Invaders.

[Xeliou66]

I watched Illegal tonight, really good season 18 episode and it’s a great episode for McCoy - I particularly love the scene where McCoy fires Lethem, Lethem was a royal prick and it was awesome to see Jack call him out for tanking the case in front of the grand jury and then when Lethem started bad mouthing him Jack fired him. My question is is why did McCoy put Lethem on the case in the first place? Was he unaware of Lethem’s record of never once prosecuting a police officer? Or was he perhaps seeing if Lethem could do his job properly without bias? Either way Lethem was a prick and I think he was mad that Jack was DA and he wasn’t. 

I also loved McCoy testifying - his response when the defense lawyer called him “out of control” was awesome “where there’s a law I’ll enforce it, where there’s a crime I’ll prosecute it, and where there’s a victim I’ll speak for that victim, that’s my bottom line”!! Also the continuity with references to a bunch of past cases McCoy had prosecuted with specific references to the episodes Gunshow, Mad Dog and Refuge. Awesome continuity. 

Also great was when Jack blew up at the prick police bigwig who called him a “placeholder”. 

I loved Jack’s line “now I know why Adam Schiff was always so grumpy”. 

This was a great episode - I don’t recall it being discussed much on here but it’s my favorite season 18 episode, season 18 was a good season and the changed they made before it - bringing in Lupo and Cutter and moving McCoy to the DA position, really worked and gave the show new life.

[wknt3]

20 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I watched Illegal tonight, really good season 18 episode and it’s a great episode for McCoy - I particularly love the scene where McCoy fires Lethem, Lethem was a royal prick and it was awesome to see Jack call him out for tanking the case in front of the grand jury and then when Lethem started bad mouthing him Jack fired him. My question is is why did McCoy put Lethem on the case in the first place? Was he unaware of Lethem’s record of never once prosecuting a police officer? Or was he perhaps seeing if Lethem could do his job properly without bias? Either way Lethem was a prick and I think he was mad that Jack was DA and he wasn’t.

Yeah they made that pretty clear. I think McCoy put him on the case because he is an institutionalist - he was not going to assign the case to somebody less senior just because they were a competitor or because they disagreed ideologically. He expected everyone to do their best to win the cases that ended up on their desk  and to follow orders just like he did.
 

Quote

This was a great episode - I don’t recall it being discussed much on here but it’s my favorite season 18 episode, season 18 was a good season and the changed they made before it - bringing in Lupo and Cutter and moving McCoy to the DA position, really worked and gave the show new life.

I agree, especially about McCoy. Making him the DA opened up the way to tell new stories after all the years it had been on. Especially since he was still the focus of the legal side of the show in many ways. So while he was more hands on than previous DAs we also saw more of the political side that had only been alluded to before. As we've discussed over on the SVU forum the franchise unfortunately disregarded the example of the mothership when it came time to promote their lead to a position that was usually a secondary character.

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, wknt3 said:

Yeah they made that pretty clear. I think McCoy put him on the case because he is an institutionalist - he was not going to assign the case to somebody less senior just because they were a competitor or because they disagreed ideologically. He expected everyone to do their best to win the cases that ended up on their desk  and to follow orders just like he did.
 

I agree, especially about McCoy. Making him the DA opened up the way to tell new stories after all the years it had been on. Especially since he was still the focus of the legal side of the show in many ways. So while he was more hands on than previous DAs we also saw more of the political side that had only been alluded to before. As we've discussed over on the SVU forum the franchise unfortunately disregarded the example of the mothership when it came time to promote their lead to a position that was usually a secondary character.

Yeah I guess McCoy thought Lethem would do his job regardless - he was obviously wrong, Lethem was a joke and a grade A prick, like I said, the scene of Jack firing him was great!! 

I really liked how they transitioned McCoy into the DA’s role, they gave him a meatier role than prior DA’s but they didn’t have hm doing stuff he wouldn’t be doing, such as prosecuting cases in court, they left the courtroom prosecutions to the ADA’s. Unlike how with SVU Benson is still out in the field as a detective in many episodes.

Illegal was a fantastic episode, particularly for Jack, he was at his best in that episode. I also liked the Green/Lupo partnership, they were only in 14 episodes together but they were a good pairing. This episode was the first reference to the past incident where Lupo’s partner was killed while Lupo was hungover in his patrol car, this background was expanded upon in the season 20 episode Steel Eyed Death.

As I’ve said before - I love the last 3 seasons of L&O. 

[shapeshifter]

I saw “Aftershock” yesterday and decided to watch it carefully for foreshadowing and meaning (rather than just have it on in the background). 
I know at least a few have said they loathe the episode, but it might be one of my favorites. 
But then Breaking Bad’s “Fly” is definitely one of my favorites, so I don’t expect everyone to like what I like. 🙃

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

I saw “Aftershock” yesterday and decided to watch it carefully for foreshadowing and meaning (rather than just have it on in the background). 
I know at least a few have said they loathe the episode, but it might be one of my favorites. 
But then Breaking Bad’s “Fly” is definitely one of my favorites, so I don’t expect everyone to like what I like. 🙃

I have to disagree with you strongly here - Aftershock is BY FAR the worst episode of the Mothership, without a question. For many reasons. The main one being THERE WAS NO CASE - L&O was always about the cases first and foremost, and in this episode there wasn’t even a case, instead it was all extremely soapy personal drama. Second of all - I didn’t buy at all how all 4 characters that witnessed the execution would react so drastically - the only one I could buy being really affected was Claire due to her strong opposition to the death penalty. The others I didn’t buy at all - I mean I thought Briscoe drinking again and Curtis cheating on his wife was totally ridiculous, these guys are homicide detectives who’ve seen far worse than the execution of a cold blooded killer, I mean in just the previous episode, they investigated the case of a murdered baby, that’s far worse than watching a killer be executed, but we’re supposed to think that this is what drove both of them to behave in OOC, self destructive ways? Bullshit. 

And I liked Kincaid and I disliked them killing her off - they could’ve written her out just by saying she wanted to go into private practice as a defense lawyer and that would’ve been a better exit and would’ve left the door open for future appearances by her. 

The entire episode was dreck and soapy melodrama - the opposite of what made L&O great. I’m just glad that they skipped ahead a couple of months when season 7 started and we didn’t have to suffer through more melodrama in the aftermath of Kincaid’s death - instead they handled it really well in the season 7 premiere - both McCoy and Briscoe were still dealing with what happened but it wasn’t the main focus of the episode and everyone was in character and there wasn’t any soapy melodrama, that was really well done after such a shitshow in Aftershock. 

The Mothership had so few “bad” episodes that those that stunk really stand out - and Aftershock is by far the worst. The runner ups for the worst episode are Dignity from season 20, Mad Dog from season 7 and Monster from season 8 IMO, those all sucked.