Law & Order Discussion Topic (2019 - 2021)

[Xeliou66]

31 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I LOATHE "Black Tie" so, so, so much.

The first being that line from Van Buren to Logan about how he has an issue with her "rank in a skirt."

HUH? What? There was NEVER any indication that Logan had ANY issues with his new commanding officer because she was a woman. 

What the fook, Show?

The other being that smug, smug, smug ASSHOLE of a defense lawyer, who always plays such a smug, smug, smug asshole.

That was a weird line, because up to that point there was no indication that Logan had an issue with Van Buren because she was a female squad leader. The Logan/Van Buren relationship was interesting but I never got the impression that he resented having a female boss. 

Rothenberg was always a smug asshole who always represented other smug assholes. 

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I LOATHE "Black Tie" so, so, so much.

The first being that line from Van Buren to Logan about how he has an issue with her "rank in a skirt."

HUH? What? There was NEVER any indication that Logan had ANY issues with his new commanding officer because she was a woman. 

What the fook, Show?

The other being that smug, smug, smug ASSHOLE of a defense lawyer, who always plays such a smug, smug, smug asshole.

Read more  

That was a weird line, because up to that point there was no indication that Logan had an issue with Van Buren because she was a female squad leader. The Logan/Van Buren relationship was interesting but I never got the impression that he resented having a female boss

When “Black Tie” aired the other day, I may have gotten a little whiplash from the double take I did after the “rank in a skirt” line, but I was already head-spinning from Lennie and Logan disrespecting her orders before she said it. 
It all seemed OOC. Like maybe they were doing a screen test to see how that sort of clash would come across, but then maybe they realized it didn’t work. 

[ML89]

9 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

When “Black Tie” aired the other day, I may have gotten a little whiplash from the double take I did after the “rank in a skirt” line, but I was already head-spinning from Lennie and Logan disrespecting her orders before she said it. 
It all seemed OOC. Like maybe they were doing a screen test to see how that sort of clash would come across, but then maybe they realized it didn’t work. 

It’s even more off when, in Competence, Logan lobs that same comment back at the Chief of Ds. 

I liked the idea that Logan tried to be more informal with Van Buren, like he was with Cragen, but the male female stuff they tried with Lennie and Mike vs Van Buren never worked. 
 

[Xeliou66]

6 hours ago, ML89 said:

It’s even more off when, in Competence, Logan lobs that same comment back at the Chief of Ds. 

I liked the idea that Logan tried to be more informal with Van Buren, like he was with Cragen, but the male female stuff they tried with Lennie and Mike vs Van Buren never worked. 
 

It was interesting how Logan was the only one who tried calling Van Buren by her first name, and Van Buren quickly shut that down. None of the detectives ever called Van Buren by her first name, whereas with Cragen they called him “Don” or “Donny”, they were always more formal with Van Buren than they were with Cragen, and that might’ve been in part due to race and gender. But I never thought any of the detectives had an issue with Van Buren because she was a woman or because she was black, so it was weird that they had that line about Logan not being able to handle a female boss. 

[wknt3]

19 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

When “Black Tie” aired the other day, I may have gotten a little whiplash from the double take I did after the “rank in a skirt” line, but I was already head-spinning from Lennie and Logan disrespecting her orders before she said it. 
It all seemed OOC. Like maybe they were doing a screen test to see how that sort of clash would come across, but then maybe they realized it didn’t work. 

 

10 hours ago, ML89 said:

It’s even more off when, in Competence, Logan lobs that same comment back at the Chief of Ds. 

I liked the idea that Logan tried to be more informal with Van Buren, like he was with Cragen, but the male female stuff they tried with Lennie and Mike vs Van Buren never worked. 
 

 

3 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

It was interesting how Logan was the only one who tried calling Van Buren by her first name, and Van Buren quickly shut that down. None of the detectives ever called Van Buren by her first name, whereas with Cragen they called him “Don” or “Donny”, they were always more formal with Van Buren than they were with Cragen, and that might’ve been in part due to race and gender. But I never thought any of the detectives had an issue with Van Buren because she was a woman or because she was black, so it was weird that they had that line about Logan not being able to handle a female boss. 

I think that it was a deliberate choice to show that Briscoe was a little more experienced and clued in than Logan. Mike had always been partners with the squad's second whip and, at the start of the show with Cragen's old partner, so there was a certain informality there that carried over when Lennie came on. When Van Buren arrived Logan thought that he could keep up that approach. Briscoe knew better. He had been around more and he seemed to understand more than Logan what she had to go through to get to where she was. I always appreciated that.

As far as sexism is concerned I think there was a subtlety that sometimes came off as inconsistency, Logan was relatively progressive for a NYPD officer at that time and I don't think that there was any truth he had a problem working for a woman. But Van Buren wasn't the only one who thought he had a problem with strong women - remember Olivet and her line about his problem with women with triple digit IQ's? I think the intent was that Logan's natural cockiness often came off as sexism. Especially to those that knew about his womanizing and his tendency to treat women "like furniture" as Cerreta put it. And given Van Buren's background and having to put up with some pretty blatant bias it isn't surprising at all that she would react that way and assume sexism instead of immaturity. I can see why it came up and why that they didn't give it a lot more dialogue although I do think there was a certain subtext of Logan maturing a bit and learning how to tone down some of the unintended subtext that he didn't necessarily mean or realize he was conveying.

[ML89]

11 hours ago, ML89 said:

It’s even more off when, in Competence, Logan lobs that same comment back at the Chief of Ds. 

That should have been BECAUSE not when. That’s the Logan I know. 
 

Co signing the above from @wknt3 and @Xeliou66

[VCRTracking]

This is an 11 year old video but the guy's Sam Waterson impression is great:

 

 

[wknt3]

On 7/23/2020 at 7:07 AM, ML89 said:

It’s even more off when, in Competence, Logan lobs that same comment back at the Chief of Ds.

 

On 7/23/2020 at 6:56 PM, ML89 said:

That should have been BECAUSE not when. That’s the Logan I know.

They're BOTH the Logan we know, That's what was so great about the show - the characters were fully realized human beings with flaws and complex personalities. We've already discussed some of the issues of perception versus intent etc. but there is another important factor at play - one of those quotes is Logan still getting used to someone and one is after he has adjusted and accepted them.  He doesn't exactly embrace change, but once he has accepted you he will always have your back against outsiders.

Edited July 25, 2020 by wknt3
fix typos

[ML89]

8 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

This is an 11 year old video but the guy's Sam Waterson impression is great:

 

 

Good Fred Thompson too! Ah, the TNT days (Charmed next! There was this one fan who spun these elaborate theories about one of the Charmed women coming to L&O).

[Xeliou66]

5 hours ago, wknt3 said:

 

They're BOTH the Logan we know, That's what was so great about the show - the characters were fully realized human beings with flaws and complex personalities. We've already discussed some of the issues of perception versus intent etc. but there is another important factor at play - one of those quotes is Logan still getting used to someone and one is after he has adjusted and accepted them.  He doesn't exactly embrace change, but once he has accepted you he will always have your back against outsiders.

Yeah Logan’s dislike of change was explicitly mentioned by Cragen in Point of View, when he was asking about whether Briscoe was just temporary or if Phil was coming back. He had a difficult time with change and warming up to new people. Still I never took it that he had an issue with a female boss, so that was a weird line. 

[shapeshifter]

5 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah Logan’s dislike of change was explicitly mentioned by Cragen in Point of View, when he was asking about whether Briscoe was just temporary or if Phil was coming back. He had a difficult time with change and warming up to new people. Still I never took it that he had an issue with a female boss, so that was a weird line. 

I didn't recall/notice Logan's characterization of disliking change, but that puts a different spin on the seemingly (to me and others) weird line from Van Buren about him having issues with "a rank in a skirt." It makes the line more about Van Buren's struggles to get to her rank as a woman rather than about Logan. 
But, also, now that you mention it, @Xeliou66, I am hearing it more as Van Buren needing to get to know that although Logan may be a skirt chaser, and may have mommy issues, but he is not a total "male chauvinist pig" (the term of the times), or maybe that the writers are henceforth going to see that he is schooled to respect women, that is, that it is a moment of a fork in the road of his character development (or perhaps a bit of a retcon).

 

 

Edited July 25, 2020 by shapeshifter

[wknt3]

13 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah Logan’s dislike of change was explicitly mentioned by Cragen in Point of View, when he was asking about whether Briscoe was just temporary or if Phil was coming back. He had a difficult time with change and warming up to new people. Still I never took it that he had an issue with a female boss, so that was a weird line. 

 

7 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I didn't recall/notice Logan's characterization of disliking change, but that puts a different spin on the seemingly (to me and others) weird line from Van Buren about him having issues with "a rank in a skirt." It makes the line more about Van Buren's struggles to get to her rank as a woman rather than about Logan. 
But, also, now that you mention it, @Xeliou66, I am hearing it more as Van Buren needing to get to know that although Logan may be a skirt chaser, and may have mommy issues, but he is not a total "male chauvinist pig" (the term of the times), or maybe that the writers are henceforth going to see that he is schooled to respect women, that is, that it is a moment of a fork in the road of his character development (or perhaps a bit of a retcon).

 

I read as both. It's about Logan being his usual cocky self who doesn't always respect rank and the chain of command and Van Buren's response as someone who has dealt with a lot of crap from Irish cops to get to where she is and doesn't know all that we do about him. I always appreciated that the writers had strong women react negatively to Logan's cockiness without making him a total "male chauvinist pig".  As I've said it's an impressively nuanced piece of characterization and conflict between our protagonists where nobody is completely right or wrong. Definitely much more interesting than the simplistic "You're so handsome!" "Thanks, but I'm married and Catholic and completely respectful of all women" that followed his departure. Consistency is the hobgoblin of boring characters!

[GHScorpiosRule]

I just think they thought that the line sounded good, and didn’t even bother to think whether it made sense or not. There weren’t any small instances in previous episodes to lead up to it.

So Mike’s a horndog/slut. Big deal. Didn’t make him a misogynist. 
 

Let’s not forget about that line in the MOVIE THAT NEVER HAPPENED her line about Mike being self-centered/selfish whatever.

Then the offscreen conversation in Criminal Intent with Deakins where she told him while Mike was hot-headed (REALLY?😆😆🤪🤪) and had a temper, he was an honest and good cop.

[Xeliou66]

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I just think they thought that the line sounded good, and didn’t even bother to think whether it made sense or not. There weren’t any small instances in previous episodes to lead up to it.

So Mike’s a horndog/slut. Big deal. Didn’t make him a misogynist. 
 

Let’s not forget about that line in the MOVIE THAT NEVER HAPPENED her line about Mike being self-centered/selfish whatever.

Then the offscreen conversation in Criminal Intent with Deakins where she told him while Mike was hot-headed (REALLY?😆😆🤪🤪) and had a temper, he was an honest and good cop.

Yeah the line was weird. And don’t get me started on the fucking movie, what a steaming pile of shit that was, they made it out like Van Buren hated Logan in that movie, everyone was so OOC, I’m really glad CI rectified that mistake by having Deakins say that Van Buren had tried to get Logan back from Staten Island. 

I wish they had given Logan a final scene in Pride with Van Buren and Briscoe where they told him he was being demoted and sent to Staten Island, instead of just McCoy and Kincaid talking about it. That’s always bugged me, Logan deserved a final scene. At least he came back on CI though. 

[wknt3]

23 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I just think they thought that the line sounded good, and didn’t even bother to think whether it made sense or not.

OK I think I see the problem and why I seem to be alone in defending it and arguing it was a considered character based choice. You are obviously watching the Special Edition of "Black Tie" where Hayden Christensen plays the perp in the final scene and Van Buren's response to Logan is "Is this because I'm a lesbian?" It plays much better in the original version!

Edited July 26, 2020 by wknt3
fix typos

[ML89]

4 hours ago, wknt3 said:

Van Buren's response to Logan is "Is this because I'm a lesbian?"

That would have made more sense than the original version, honestly. Wow, do I remember fandom’s collective “the hell?”

[shapeshifter]

Before this thread moves totally away from the various characterizations of Logan, today on Bounce I just saw 4.13 "Breeder" in which "While they are searching for a stolen newborn baby in their new case, Detectives Lennie Briscoe and Mike Logan will uncover new evidence of a scheme, which involves a series of private adoptions without any known proper records." 
If the scene of Logan correctly holding a baby and correctly identifying it as being older than the missing newborn isn't enough,  there's another scene where the detectives finally locate the missing newborn baby, safely surrounded by pillows to prevent it from rolling off of the hotel queen-sized bed, correctly positioned on its back, looking happy and healthy. Logan expertly, carefully --perhaps even lovingly-- supports the young baby's head and cradles it as he removes it from the bed, giving the appearance of the baby being in capable, caring hands. 
In another scene, Logan also suggests that abortion is an appropriate option. 
If Logan had previously behaved in such a way to get himself on my I'm So Glad I'm Not Married To That Man list that lives in my head, this episode took him off of that list, hee. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

36 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Before this thread moves totally away from the various characterizations of Logan, today on Bounce I just saw 4.13 "Breeder" in which "While they are searching for a stolen newborn baby in their new case, Detectives Lennie Briscoe and Mike Logan will uncover new evidence of a scheme, which involves a series of private adoptions without any known proper records." 
If the scene of Logan correctly holding a baby and correctly identifying it as being older than the missing newborn isn't enough,  there's another scene where the detectives finally locate the missing newborn baby, safely surrounded by pillows to prevent it from rolling off of the hotel queen-sized bed, correctly positioned on its back, looking happy and healthy. Logan expertly, carefully --perhaps even lovingly-- supports the young baby's head and cradles it as he removes it from the bed, giving the appearance of the baby being in capable, caring hands. 
In another scene, Logan also suggests that abortion is an appropriate option. 
If Logan had previously behaved in such a way to get himself on my I'm So Glad I'm Not Married To That Man list that lives in my head, this episode took him off of that list, hee. 

What's hilarious about this? In Criminal Intent's "Weeping Willow", you have Logan holding the baby of the internet wannabe whatever who orchestrated her own kidnapping's friend's baby, under its arms; as if he didn't know how to hold a baby. It's funny because it was around this time that Chris Noth's significant other had given birth to their first and only child.

I don't think Logan is the exception to the kind of men/cops that were around in the '90s. I think, while he was a horndog/slut, he also had the influence of Marie, Max's wife/widow. Not Max, because we know how they knocked heads over sex outside of marriage and abortion.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

If the [L&O “Breeder”] scene of Logan correctly holding a baby and correctly identifying it as being older than the missing newborn isn't enough,  there's another scene where.... Logan expertly, carefully --perhaps even lovingly-- supports the young baby's head and cradles it as he removes it from the bed, giving the appearance of the baby being in capable, caring hands. 

What's hilarious about this? In Criminal Intent's "Weeping Willow", you have Logan holding the baby ...under its arms; as if he didn't know how to hold a baby

Hah! Since young Logan (“Breeder,” L&O, 1994) knew how to correctly hold babies, but more mature Logan (“Weeping Willow,” L&O: CI, 2006) doesn’t have a clue, this is a retcon!

[GHScorpiosRule]

20 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Hah! Since young Logan (“Breeder,” L&O, 1994) knew how to correctly hold babies, but more mature Logan (“Weeping Willow,” L&O: CI, 2006) doesn’t have a clue, this is a retcon!

Well, the mother just handed the baby to Logan and told him something like "here, hold him" and then "he likes you" or something like that.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Ben Stone has some very, very AWESOME lines in both "Pursuit of Happiness" and "Breeder" Below are two of my favorites:

"Pursuit of Happiness:

Judge to Sleazy Defense attorney Tom, followed by Ben's to a whiny Tom:

"Off the record please. (to stenographer) I can't prove this Tom, but I think you're lying."

Tom: "Your Honor, really--"

Judge Quinn: "Don't play dumb with me, you didn't want Ben to know where you were going.  I'll let you have your witness. One of these days you'll get caught; You're gonna get disbarred, and I'll be there to applaud."

Me: Oh SNAP!

 

***************

Stone: "A Chinese guy could blow you away and get off scott-free because of cross-racial identification.  And that's the most comforting thought I've had all day."

Me:🥰😂

"Breeder:

This, after that heinous bitch of Debra Elkins, during the plea talks, calls her boyfriend/father of the baby she sold, Stupid...and he, Steven Shaw, says she is "Such a BITCH" and starts talking...and then this:

Stone: "Ms. Elkins, apparently Stupid, is not willing to go to prison for you."

😂😂

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Too bad Moriarty went Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.

And "Sanctuary" aired on Tuesday. THAT should have been his Swan Song; not "Old Friends".

I'll post my favorite exchange between Stone and Shambala after I rewatch.

And it can't be stated enough: Claire was BEEEEEEYOND STOOOPID in "Censure."

Edited July 30, 2020 by GHScorpiosRule

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Ben Stone has some very, very AWESOME lines in both "Pursuit of Happiness" and "Breeder" Below are two of my favorites:

"Pursuit of Happiness:

Judge to Sleazy Defense attorney Tom, followed by Ben's to a whiny Tom:

"Off the record please. (to stenographer) I can't prove this Tom, but I think you're lying."

Tom: "Your Honor, really--"

Judge Quinn: "Don't play dumb with me, you didn't want Ben to know where you were going.  I'll let you have your witness. One of these days you'll get caught; You're gonna get disbarred, and I'll be there to applaud."

Me: Oh SNAP!

 

***************

Stone: "A Chinese guy could blow you away and get off scott-free because of cross-racial identification.  And that's the most comforting thought I've had all day."

Me:🥰😂

"Breeder:

This, after that heinous bitch of Debra Elkins, during the plea talks, calls her boyfriend/father of the baby she sold, Stupid...and he, Steven Shaw, says she is "Such a BITCH" and starts talking...and then this:

Stone: "Ms. Elkins, apparently Stupid, is not willing to go to prison for you."

😂😂

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Too bad Moriarty went Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.

And "Sanctuary" aired on Tuesday. THAT should have been his Swan Song; not "Old Friends".

I'll post my favorite exchange between Stone and Shambala after I rewatch.

And it can't be stated enough: Claire was BEEEEEEYOND STOOOPID in "Censure."

I agree that Sanctuary should’ve been Stone’s last episode, not Old Friends. It wasn’t that Old Friends was a bad episode or a bad ending for Stone, I liked the episode and thought Stone’s ending was fine and I liked his last scene with Schiff. But Sanctuary would’ve been a better finale for Stone, he was really upset by the whole case and was furious at Schiff’s decision not to retry the case at the end, and I think it would’ve been a very fitting exit for Stone if he resigned then because he was so upset about justice not being served in the case, Stone had a very strong sense of justice and it would’ve been a good ending for him to quit because he felt that the DA’s office didn’t share his values. 

 

[shapeshifter]

Speaking of great lines--

In 4.22 "Old Friends," in a meeting with Ben Stone and Claire Kincaid, one of them suggests "You'd think they have other means of persuasion" (than murder). 

[ADAM SCHIFF REPLIES] The Russians? They make the Colombians look like the Von Trapp family.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Huh.

Bounce just skipped over "Nurture" (another great guest spot with Camryn Manheim), and "Doubles" (the ripped from the headlines based on the Harding hiring her ex to bash Kerrigan's knee), using tennis.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Huh.

Bounce just skipped over "Nurture" (another great guest spot with Camryn Manheim), and "Doubles" (the ripped from the headlines based on the Harding hiring her ex to bash Kerrigan's knee), using tennis.

TitanTV indicates that Bounce aired them here (WCIU out of Chicago) yesterday (Thursday) but Thursdays I watch the Monk marathon on H&I so I can’t verify except that today they did air the episode that comes after those. 

Edited July 31, 2020 by shapeshifter

[GHScorpiosRule]

43 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

TitanTV indicates that Bounce aired them here (WCIU out of Chicago) yesterday (Thursday) but Thursdays I watch the Monk marathon on H&I so I can’t verify except that today they did air the episode that comes after those. 

It was on my DVR to record--the triple red circles. Yet, it didn't record. No matter. It's just weird, is all.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Bye Ben!😢😢😢

Hellooooo Jack!!!

”Second Opinion”

Jack: “Haas tells one patient she’s got a cure, it’s a little white lie; she tells two patients, it’s unforgivable; she tells three patients, she’s a murderer.  She tells four patients she’s a DAMN murderer, and it’s ALL admissible!”

GO JACK!!!!!🙌🙌🙌🙌

[Xeliou66]

6 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Bye Ben!😢😢😢

Hellooooo Jack!!!

”Second Opinion”

Jack: “Haas tells one patient she’s got a cure, it’s a little white lie; she tells two patients, it’s unforgivable; she tells three patients, she’s a murderer.  She tells four patients she’s a DAMN murderer, and it’s ALL admissible!”

GO JACK!!!!!🙌🙌🙌🙌

I liked how Jack’s introduction was rather low key, it didn’t take over the episode and it was a very smooth introduction, and yet he still distinguished himself as different from Stone as a prosecutor, more fiery and visibly passionate, whereas Stone was very stoic, both had a strong sense of justice, but went about it in different ways. Second Opinion was just an average episode overall IMO, but I like McCoy’s introduction a lot. 

[catlover79]

A great photo from back in the day...

[GHScorpiosRule]

9 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I liked how Jack’s introduction was rather low key, it didn’t take over the episode and it was a very smooth introduction, and yet he still distinguished himself as different from Stone as a prosecutor, more fiery and visibly passionate, whereas Stone was very stoic, both had a strong sense of justice, but went about it in different ways. Second Opinion was just an average episode overall IMO, but I like McCoy’s introduction a lot. 

I really liked that they didn’t have Jack “hired to replace Ben” but that he had been at the DA’s office at the same time. He just wasn’t shown. Just as other homicide cops weren’t the focus as Max/Mike, Phil/Mike, Lennie/Mike, etc.

And I mentioned this up thread and also when we had a full forum, but after being diagnosed with Breast Cancer myself, and undergoing surgery and chemo, I get 🤬🤬🤬 at these women who would rather DIE than choose to go the route of surgery and/or chemo/radiation. I’m sure constructive surgery was available in the 90s. I understand the effects of chemo was really bad then compared to now, but this episode does it no service.

Okay, off my soapbox now.

I did find it interesting that Jack was more gung ho to go after that snake oil woman Haas, than Claire was. And I also think Jack nailed it-if Haas had been a MAN, she would have been singing a different tune. Man, Claire annoys me to no end.

She tells Jack up front there’ll be no hanky panky with them and she ends up in a sexual relationship with him within the year.🙄🙄🙄

[catlover79]

Another classic Briscoe line:

[Xeliou66]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I really liked that they didn’t have Jack “hired to replace Ben” but that he had been at the DA’s office at the same time. He just wasn’t shown. Just as other homicide cops weren’t the focus as Max/Mike, Phil/Mike, Lennie/Mike, etc.

And I mentioned this up thread and also when we had a full forum, but after being diagnosed with Breast Cancer myself, and undergoing surgery and chemo, I get 🤬🤬🤬 at these women who would rather DIE than choose to go the route of surgery and/or chemo/radiation. I’m sure constructive surgery was available in the 90s. I understand the effects of chemo was really bad then compared to now, but this episode does it no service.

Okay, off my soapbox now.

I did find it interesting that Jack was more gung ho to go after that snake oil woman Haas, than Claire was. And I also think Jack nailed it-if Haas had been a MAN, she would have been singing a different tune. Man, Claire annoys me to no end.

She tells Jack up front there’ll be no hanky panky with them and she ends up in a sexual relationship with him within the year.🙄🙄🙄

I also really liked how McCoy wasn’t hired to replace Stone, he had been there for a while and was an experienced prosecutor, we just hadn’t seen his cases. It made his transition into the show very smooth. 

About Claire, overall I liked her but she had moments where she pissed me off, especially with her stupidity of having slept with the creepy scumbag Judge Thayer in the past in Censure. 

[shapeshifter]

1 minute ago, Xeliou66 said:

About Claire, overall I liked her but she had moments where she pissed me off, especially with her stupidity of having slept with the creepy scumbag Judge Thayer in the past in Censure. 

Creepy Judge was able to manipulate other women too, so I don't know that she was stupid when she was young and fell for it. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Creepy Judge was able to manipulate other women too, so I don't know that she was stupid when she was young and fell for it. 

Yeah. Thinking a Married man would leave his wife for her. Yup. Stupid, as far as I’m concerned. And not revealing that relationship to Ben? More stupidity.

She wasn’t some naive ingenue.

[catlover79]

Jill Hennessy even mentioned that in this 2015 video commemorating the 25th anniversary of the Mothership:

 

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Yeah. Thinking a Married man would leave his wife for her. Yup. Stupid, as far as I’m concerned. And not revealing that relationship to Ben? More stupidity.

She wasn’t some naive ingenue.

Not revealing the relationship was dumb and ticked me off. She knew Ben needed to know that and why. But when he found out and he was ticked she acted as if she didn't need to tell him. It jeopardized their case and she lied to Ben when he asked her about it.

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I really liked that they didn’t have Jack “hired to replace Ben” but that he had been at the DA’s office at the same time. He just wasn’t shown. Just as other homicide cops weren’t the focus as Max/Mike, Phil/Mike, Lennie/Mike, etc.

And I mentioned this up thread and also when we had a full forum, but after being diagnosed with Breast Cancer myself, and undergoing surgery and chemo, I get 🤬🤬🤬 at these women who would rather DIE than choose to go the route of surgery and/or chemo/radiation. I’m sure constructive surgery was available in the 90s. I understand the effects of chemo was really bad then compared to now, but this episode does it no service.

Okay, off my soapbox now.

Its okay, I get ticked off about that too. Its so stupid. These women would rather die then choose surgery and/or chemo/radiation and live. Both of my grandmothers died of cancer. They would have cut off body parts if it meant they could live and have more time with their family. They did everything they could. These women had options and choose to die. 

[Spartan Girl]

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I really liked that they didn’t have Jack “hired to replace Ben” but that he had been at the DA’s office at the same time. He just wasn’t shown. Just as other homicide cops weren’t the focus as Max/Mike, Phil/Mike, Lennie/Mike, etc.

And I mentioned this up thread and also when we had a full forum, but after being diagnosed with Breast Cancer myself, and undergoing surgery and chemo, I get 🤬🤬🤬 at these women who would rather DIE than choose to go the route of surgery and/or chemo/radiation. I’m sure constructive surgery was available in the 90s. I understand the effects of chemo was really bad then compared to now, but this episode does it no service.

Okay, off my soapbox now.

I did find it interesting that Jack was more gung ho to go after that snake oil woman Haas, than Claire was. And I also think Jack nailed it-if Haas had been a MAN, she would have been singing a different tune. Man, Claire annoys me to no end.

She tells Jack up front there’ll be no hanky panky with them and she ends up in a sexual relationship with him within the year.🙄🙄🙄

All of this. I have no patience for people who turn down vaccines and treatments and scientifically approved medicine in favor of "convenient" quackery. Especially NOW.

Yeah Claire was super annoying in that one. That was crap I expected from Serena.

Edited August 1, 2020 by Spartan Girl

[catlover79]

This photo of former and then-current cast members was taken in 2009, I believe. That's Dick Wolf with Jill Hennessy in his lap. Seasons 18-20 were just as strong cast-wise as the early years. Great chemistry.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

17 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I did find it interesting that Jack was more gung ho to go after that snake oil woman Haas, than Claire was. And I also think Jack nailed it-if Haas had been a MAN, she would have been singing a different tune. Man, Claire annoys me to no end.

Jack even gives Claire shit when she's going on about how magazines and TV make women feel self-conscious and bad about themselves, and so of course they'd be hesitant about chemo and such; "You're right. All men are pigs and we should all rot in hell." Heh.

One of the many thing I appreciate about the Mothership in the present is that it was obviously a professional work environment. Even in the very early days with Max and Cragen and Ben, both the Law and the Order sides wore suits and ties while doing their jobs. Even later, like when Cyrus Lupo came on board, Van Buren told him at one point to shave the beard off because he wasn't overseas anymore and it didn't fit with his current job. I watch a lot of procedurals even now, but none of them quite have that look to them, where they're well-dressed without being Glamour Shot material.

[catlover79]

21 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

About Claire, overall I liked her but she had moments where she pissed me off, especially with her stupidity of having slept with the creepy scumbag Judge Thayer in the past in Censure. 

Played by David Groh, who of course lives in L&O infamy as Jacob Lowenstein. He also played Bobbie Spencer's abusive first husband on GH in the early 80s. Mr. Groh played such scary and rotten villains so convincingly that I couldn't really enjoy him as Rhoda's good guy hubby Joe when that show came to DVD!! 

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 minutes ago, catlover79 said:

Played by David Groh, who of course lives in L&O infamy as Jacob Lowenstein. He also played Bobbie Spencer's abusive first husband on GH in the early 80s. Mr. Groh played such scary and rotten villains so convincingly that I couldn't really enjoy him as Rhoda's good guy hubby Joe when that show came to DVD!! 

The IRONY is that Groh played a good guy FIRST. He played Brock on GH as a good guy FIRST, before they changed him into an abusive asshole.

So for me, it was jarring to see Joe as Lowenstein. But Groh is just that good.

[Spartan Girl]

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

The IRONY is that Groh played a good guy FIRST. He played Brock on GH as a good guy FIRST, before they changed him into an abusive asshole.

So for me, it was jarring to see Joe as Lowenstein. But Groh is just that good.

OMG how did I not know that was the same guy?! This damn show, even when they use the same actors I can still get fooled!!

[catlover79]

Here are screen caps of David Groh in his three L&O appearances - "Indifference", "Censure" and "Fixed". I also found an article about "Fixed" from when it originally aired.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.deseret.com/platform/amp/2004/12/8/19865220/law-gets-blast-from-past

[balmz]

was watching snatched and this line made me laugh

 

Mr. Bregman, in all my years of porsecution, you are possibly the stupidest criminal I have ever met"

 

which brings me to this question what are some of the dumbest perps or stupidest reasons for a crime a perp did you recall on the show?

[Xeliou66]

11 hours ago, balmz said:

was watching snatched and this line made me laugh

 

Mr. Bregman, in all my years of porsecution, you are possibly the stupidest criminal I have ever met"

 

which brings me to this question what are some of the dumbest perps or stupidest reasons for a crime a perp did you recall on the show?

The 2 moron asswipes from Thrill who killed the delivery man just because they wanted to kill someone come to mind. 

Not a stupid perp but Walter Grobman from DNR who had a his wife shot just because he was jealous she was more successful than he was comes to mind as a pointless motive. 

[Ailianna]

On 8/1/2020 at 4:49 PM, catlover79 said:

This photo of former and then-current cast members was taken in 2009, I believe. That's Dick Wolf with Jill Hennessy in his lap. Seasons 18-20 were just as strong cast-wise as the early years. Great chemistry.

Sadly, there's a very important face missing.  I will never not miss Jerry Orbach.

On 8/2/2020 at 5:48 AM, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Jack even gives Claire shit when she's going on about how magazines and TV make women feel self-conscious and bad about themselves, and so of course they'd be hesitant about chemo and such; "You're right. All men are pigs and we should all rot in hell." Heh.

One of the many thing I appreciate about the Mothership in the present is that it was obviously a professional work environment. Even in the very early days with Max and Cragen and Ben, both the Law and the Order sides wore suits and ties while doing their jobs. Even later, like when Cyrus Lupo came on board, Van Buren told him at one point to shave the beard off because he wasn't overseas anymore and it didn't fit with his current job. I watch a lot of procedurals even now, but none of them quite have that look to them, where they're well-dressed without being Glamour Shot material.

Although it drives me crazy to see Connie, in her seasons, always wearing a sweater set instead of a suit like a real grownup.  Yes, she's cute and all, but NOT professional in that environment.  She just wears her sweater set to jury trials!

[GHScorpiosRule]

So as I’m watching season five, I just noticed that it took less than 10 episodes for Claire to get involved with Jack! In “House Counsel” where Jack learns his friend of 25 years has become a mouthpiece for the mob as well as becoming part of them. The attorney was played by Ron Liebman. It’s the last line of the episode that gave it away for me, when Jack tells Claire to take the next elevator because he wouldn’t be very good company. That’s something you tell a significant other, not a colleague.

Ans Bounce is also another network that bleeps out every little thing! The N-word I could understand, but watching ”Wannabe”, they also bleeped out “Mick”! I understand that it’s not quite a nice term for the Irish, but I’ve heard it used as an endearment. Soooo STOOPID. But I love that exchange where Jack tells Boyd Gaines’ character how Mike and he, himself is a Mick!😆😆

Barclay: “But I guarantee it was Harrigan who put him up to it. He and his father, they’re all alike with their Irish temper, they lose control and the best thing you know you have a murder—“
Jack: “So Harrigan did it because he’s a Mick? Detective Logan is a Mick; I’m a Mick, Sir.  And if you don’t shut up, I’ll lose control and throw you out of the room. Take that cap off. Your tough guy act Is not going to save you.”

Me:😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

So as I’m watching season five, I just noticed that it took less than 10 episodes for Claire to get involved with Jack! In “House Counsel” where Jack learns his friend of 25 years has become a mouthpiece for the mob as well as becoming part of them. The attorney was played by Ron Liebman. It’s the last line of the episode that gave it away for me, when Jack tells Claire to take the next elevator because he wouldn’t be very good company. That’s something you tell a significant other, not a colleague.

Ans Bounce is also another network that bleeps out every little thing! The N-word I could understand, but watching ”Wannabe”, they also bleeped out “Mick”! I understand that it’s not quite a nice term for the Irish, but I’ve heard it used as an endearment. Soooo STOOPID. But I love that exchange where Jack tells Boyd Gaines’ character how Mike and he, himself is a Mick!😆😆

Barclay: “But I guarantee it was Harrigan who put him up to it. He and his father, they’re all alike with their Irish temper, they lose control and the best thing you know you have a murder—“
Jack: “So Harrigan did it because he’s a Mick? Detective Logan is a Mick; I’m a Mick, Sir.  And if you don’t shut up, I’ll lose control and throw you out of the room. Take that cap off. Your tough guy act Is not going to save you.”

Me:😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

I’m unsure exactly when the Jack/Claire relationship began but yeah in hindsight the end of House Counsel does look kind of like an interaction between people having an affair. I really liked how L&O was never explicit about that relationship, it was all subtle and left up to the viewers, they stayed focused on the cases and not on the characters personal lives, the relationship wasn’t even confirmed until a couple of seasons after Claire’s death. 

The censorship drives me nuts and I hate it!!!! I believe nothing should be censored, I mean if this stuff could air on NBC in the 90’s uncensored why can’t it air today? Yeah racial slurs are offensive, but they are used for a reason when they were used and the episodes lose some of their power when they are censored, this isn’t a Disney show, L&O’s audience can handle some offensive language. And then they censor other random stuff such as crude sexual remarks that I don’t get why they censor and it detracts from the episode as everyone is trying to figure out what was censored. Really stupid. I’m vehemently anti censorship in all cases and believe that censorship detracts from the value of art. It drives me nuts, and it’s especially ridiculous given that every commercial break WE shows ads for vulgar reality trash tv. 

[wknt3]

16 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I’m unsure exactly when the Jack/Claire relationship began but yeah in hindsight the end of House Counsel does look kind of like an interaction between people having an affair. I really liked how L&O was never explicit about that relationship, it was all subtle and left up to the viewers, they stayed focused on the cases and not on the characters personal lives, the relationship wasn’t even confirmed until a couple of seasons after Claire’s death. 

The censorship drives me nuts and I hate it!!!! I believe nothing should be censored, I mean if this stuff could air on NBC in the 90’s uncensored why can’t it air today? Yeah racial slurs are offensive, but they are used for a reason when they were used and the episodes lose some of their power when they are censored, this isn’t a Disney show, L&O’s audience can handle some offensive language. And then they censor other random stuff such as crude sexual remarks that I don’t get why they censor and it detracts from the episode as everyone is trying to figure out what was censored. Really stupid. I’m vehemently anti censorship in all cases and believe that censorship detracts from the value of art. It drives me nuts, and it’s especially ridiculous given that every commercial break WE shows ads for vulgar reality trash tv. 

Co-signed. At least we no longer have the ads about the couples having sex in a box after censoring a line about getting a chubby. I know some of the members don't think it's a big deal, but sometimes it does truly affect the viewing experience for the worse. "Carrier" is one that comes to mind as we've discussed here before. I believe I've mentioned here my theory that this is not a deliberate choice on the part of the networks airing the show, but simple laziness - the cable networks are using the broadcast syndication edits of the earlier season episodes which were censored so they could air in Omaha at 7pm without drawing too many complaints. Which in many ways is worse since they obviously have the uncensored versions that aired on TNT somebody at the networks or NBCUniversal should be able to make the effort to give us the real shows. I mean it's not like the series isn't making enough money for all involved to make the effort.