Law & Order Discussion Topic (2019 - 2021)

[wknt3]

4 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

"Florek"? Heh. I know. You meant Noth. 😉

You would think given Dann Florek's reputation as the ultimate Dick Wolf company man as Noth's as more of a diva wouldn't you? I found one of the quotes I remembered in "Law & Order: The Unofficial Companion"
 

Quote

According to series regular Dann Florek "Dzundza was difficult and mean. Sorvino was difficult but never mean. Sorvino was just kind of a blowhard. On the set one day he said, "I am one of the five greatest living actors." We all just looked at each other and no one knew what to say. It was his shot and he had a line like, "Are you sure the car was brown?" He screwed it up about four times. I just turned to him and said, "Paul maybe you should make that one of the seven greatest living actors." Everyone laughed. He laughed.

 

[shapeshifter]

24 minutes ago, wknt3 said:

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

"Florek"? Heh. I know. You meant Noth. 😉

You would think given Dann Florek's reputation as the ultimate Dick Wolf company man as Noth's as more of a diva wouldn't you? I found one of the quotes I remembered in "Law & Order: The Unofficial Companion"
 

Quote

According to series regular Dann Florek "Dzundza was difficult and mean. Sorvino was difficult but never mean. Sorvino was just kind of a blowhard. On the set one day he said, "I am one of the five greatest living actors." We all just looked at each other and no one knew what to say. It was his shot and he had a line like, "Are you sure the car was brown?" He screwed it up about four times. I just turned to him and said, "Paul maybe you should make that one of the seven greatest living actors." Everyone laughed. He laughed.

 

Now I am as embarrassed as Dzundza must have been! 🤭
But you were very gracious in your post, @wknt3, correcting my error. 🥰

 

ETA: Now I'm wondering if the last name of Florrick (same pronunciation as Florek, right?) was chosen for Noth on The Good Wife as an homage to Dann Florek and Noth's years on various L&O franchises. 

Edited June 16, 2020 by shapeshifter

[GHScorpiosRule]

Today:

"By Hooker, By Crook", "Poison Ivy", and THE BEST, "Indifference"

 

"By Hooker, By Crook"

I always laugh at this scene. Dzundza is just so very good and funny.

Jolene (Hooker): "You said you weren't a cop."

Max: (looks up from typing report) "I lied."

Jolene: "Isn't there some legal thing about that?"

Max: "What, lying? I'm allowed to lie. They pay me to lie."

So many good quotes from "Poison Ivy", but the one thing that makes me laugh is when Mike and Max go ask looking for Silky, and the girl who's rapping and dancing tells them where he can be found? Max and Mike look at each other and start moving their shoulders and bobbing their heads to the music!

"Indifference"

I think this is the only episode where Ben loses his temper and actually yells at the defendant, Jacob! Moriarty was so very good here.

"Indifference" was on today:

When Adam asks Ben what about the case bothers him the most:

Ben: "My own rage."
Adam: "What do your guts tell you?"

Ben: "Put them both in a dungeon. Put them both on a wheel and annihilate them."

**************************************************************************************************

Babcock, the arsehole: "Now let me reiterate this, gentleman. Ms. Perez is prone to excitability. It's a cultural thing. Instead of running off half cocked to call the police, she should have followed the school district's guidelines."

Max: "Which are?"

Babcock: "Which are to report her suspicions to the school nurse. If the nurse finds evidence of abuse, she comes to me. If I find the situation warrants it, I'll notify the department of juvenile services."

Mike: "By which time, the kid's in a coma. Those are some guidelines."

Babcock: "Why don't you stick to police work, detective?"

Mike: "Why don't you stop trying to cover your ass, Mr. Babcock?"

Max: "Mike! Mike! Take it easy. He's never recovered from the nuns. A cultural thing. Now Doc, let me tell you about our guidelines, okay? When someone, anyone, even a high strung Puerrrto Rican lady--comprende?-- thinks a child is being beaten, that person is supposed to report it to the authorities. And if the authorities don't act, they leave themselves open... to all sorts of repercussions. Am I making sense to you?"

Babock: "I, uhh..."

Max: "Did Miss Perez ever tell you that Didi Lowenstein might be an abused child?"

Babcock: "Yes, she did."

Max: "When?"

Babcock: "Several times, beginning in September."

Mike: "Did you do anything about it?"

Babcock: "Of course! I notified juvenile services."

Max: "Oh? Then why all this hush-hush routine?"

Babcock: "Because these days there's always a danger of a witch hunt. It could destroy the reputations of the parents. We have to be very circumspect about these accusations."

Max: "Sure, I understand. Luckily, we don't."

**************************************************************************************************

Max: "You think she beat the kid up?"

Mike: "I don't know. I know she's nuts. The way she lay there, primping herself. You know, it just made me want to puke."

Max: "She has been slapped around pretty good. I'm not so sure she's to blame."

Mike: "There are some women who provoke it. Come on, it's true. You think she cares diddley about those kids or anything else, huh? Everything is a mirror to her. She holds a dying kid up to it, and all she can see is herself and how it affects her. And you give her sympathy, she's going to want to fight. You give her a fight, she's going to want a kiss, you give her a kiss, and I swear to God, she'll bite your tongue out."

Max: "You, umm...saw this on Oprah or what?"

Mike (laughs bitterly): "My mother. Yeah. She always said she was cut out for something greater than being the wife of a cop from the Lower East Side. God, she was...she was a bottomless pit. I mean it was always 'Give me your UNDIVIDED attention.' But when the Old Man couldn't take it anymore, he gave her a whack, then she'd turn around and whack me. Heh, heh. She'd always get this look in her eye, you know, and then I saw it coming. Now this witch, in here, she's got that same look."

*************************************************************************************************

Ben, as he's cross-examining Lowenstein:

Lowenstein: "I thought she was sleeping."

Ben: "Does she usually spend the night on a parquet floor without a blanket?"

Lowenstein: "Of course not."

Ben: "Did you go to Didi and check to see if she was all right?"

Lowenstein: "I...I didn't feel it was necessary."

Ben: "Even with the bloodstain under her head?"

Lowenstein: "I didn't see that."

Ben (picks up picture of the blood): "Oh, please sir. I direct you to examine People's Exhibit 37--It IS a photograph of a bloodstain on YOUR living room floor...a blood stain measuring 27 inches by 38 inches. A blood stain the size of a SMALL RUG!" (hands clenching in fists).

One of the most powerful scenes in the series.

[Xeliou66]

I saw Doped this morning, great episode but I thought the killer should’ve gotten longer than 20 years, because of him 7 people died, he should’ve gotten consecutive sentences that would’ve put in prison for the rest of his life. He was a greedy piece of shit. 

I liked the twist that it turned out he didn’t drug the victim because he wanted to protect his job and the company, but because he wanted all of the whistleblower reward for himself. 

I really liked the investigation part of the episode with Lupo and Bernard getting to the bottom of what happened, I liked seeing ME Rodgers come to the police station with the new evidence about the propofol.

The scene where the perp stabbed himself with a pen in the neck was one of the bloodiest, goriest scenes in L&O history. 

I loved McCoy standing up to the corporate bigwig and reimbursing his donation and telling him that unless he wanted to be named as a co-conspirator he should turn over the evidence. I liked how Jack still got a lot of great scenes once he became DA even though he wasn’t in the episodes as much.

Doped was a really good episode with some great moments for each character, but like I say I felt the perp should’ve gotten a sentence where he would never have a chance at getting out of prison. 

[Broderbits]

5 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Doped was a really good episode with some great moments for each character, but like I say I felt the perp should’ve gotten a sentence where he would never have a chance at getting out of prison. 

I prefer to think that weasel died in prison; he was so whiny and annoying I'm sure the more hardened inmates would've wanted to shut him up.

[Xeliou66]

On 6/17/2020 at 6:06 PM, Broderbits said:

I prefer to think that weasel died in prison; he was so whiny and annoying I'm sure the more hardened inmates would've wanted to shut him up.

Yeah he was a whiny, pathetic prick. I just thought his sentences should’ve been consecutive given that his actions killed 7 people all because he was a greedy, selfish dick. 

[balmz]

On 6/19/2020 at 12:03 AM, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah he was a whiny, pathetic prick. I just thought his sentences should’ve been consecutive given that his actions killed 7 people all because he was a greedy, selfish dick. 

that guy was a loser, even when he stabbed himself in the neck, when the duo is trying to stop the bleeding, lupo gives kevin a look and kevin says don't think that didn't cross my mind, he was referring to just pulling the pen out and letting the guy bleed to death

 

while we are on the topic, does anyone know what the highest death toll in the show was for an episode? i think it was season 2 haven with the fire at the night club that had the highest death toll from a perp/perps

[Xeliou66]

57 minutes ago, balmz said:

that guy was a loser, even when he stabbed himself in the neck, when the duo is trying to stop the bleeding, lupo gives kevin a look and kevin says don't think that didn't cross my mind, he was referring to just pulling the pen out and letting the guy bleed to death

 

while we are on the topic, does anyone know what the highest death toll in the show was for an episode? i think it was season 2 haven with the fire at the night club that had the highest death toll from a perp/perps

Yes the highest death toll was Heaven from season 2 with the nightclub fire. 

[wknt3]

4 hours ago, balmz said:

while we are on the topic, does anyone know what the highest death toll in the show was for an episode? i think it was season 2 haven with the fire at the night club that had the highest death toll from a perp/perps

 

3 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yes the highest death toll was Heaven from season 2 with the nightclub fire. 

53 IIRC  One of the most striking openers from the early years is Logan and Cerreta looking at all the body bags lined up. "So many... I've never seen this many. You? Not in civilian life."

I think the next highest are the other club fire episode "Blaze" with 20 something and "Gunshow" coming in at 15. At least if we are talking confirmed victims. They never found out how many victims some of their perps actually had, such as Mark Bruner, some of the corporate CEOs, or Dick Cheney.

[Xeliou66]

2 minutes ago, wknt3 said:

 

53 IIRC  One of the most striking openers from the early years is Logan and Cerreta looking at all the body bags lined up. "So many... I've never seen this many. You? Not in civilian life."

I think the next highest are the other club fire episode "Blaze" with 20 something and "Gunshow" coming in at 15. At least if we are talking confirmed victims. They never found out how many victims some of their perps actually had, such as Mark Bruner, some of the corporate CEOs, or Dick Cheney.

You forgot Charm City, the first Homicide crossover, with the subway bombing - that killed over 20 I’m pretty sure. 

[balmz]

7 minutes ago, wknt3 said:

 

53 IIRC  One of the most striking openers from the early years is Logan and Cerreta looking at all the body bags lined up. "So many... I've never seen this many. You? Not in civilian life."

I think the next highest are the other club fire episode "Blaze" with 20 something and "Gunshow" coming in at 15. At least if we are talking confirmed victims. They never found out how many victims some of their perps actually had, such as Mark Bruner, some of the corporate CEOs, or Dick Cheney.

i think locomotion and fluency beat gunshow with 16 or more deaths, i think at least

[wknt3]

8 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

You forgot Charm City, the first Homicide crossover, with the subway bombing - that killed over 20 I’m pretty sure. 

D'oh! I was thinking that was 6 dead, but that was just in Baltimore. You're right that it was 20 in NYC.
 

4 minutes ago, balmz said:

i think locomotion and fluency beat gunshow with 16 or more deaths, i think at least

Double d'oh! "Locomotion" was 11, But you are correct about "Fluency" where they did end up with 16 confirmed.

[Spartan Girl]

The lawyer of the serial killer in "Bodies" was another whiny perp, and a sleaze to boot. He was practically wetting himself with excitement at the thought of representing a notorious killer, but when he was dumb enough to scout out the locked up bodies of the victims, suddenly he whines about going against his legal ethics. Doucheface, you broke legal ethics when you decided to check out the bodies. He could have just gave them a location, but nope, he wants to be a martyr for the legal system.

Beyond disgusted that Serena fell for his crap, especially given the way he creeped up to her in the beginning. That would have been a much better time for her to come out, it would have been priceless.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Spartan Girl

[stonehaven]

I love "Bodies" merely for the creep factor of Bruner...well played..but I do have one question..When Bruner says "Ask my lawyer, he saw them" to the DA's, is that permission by the client to drop attorney-client privilege?

 

[Xeliou66]

I actually was on the side of the defense attorney in Bodies, he shouldn’t have had to break attorney client privilege and reveal what Bruner told him, and he was right to stand by his principles. I know that’s probably an unpopular opinion here but it’s one of the few times I was on the side of the defense in a case, but he was right to not break privilege, and I think his conviction would be overturned on appeal as the jury didn’t convict him on evidence, they convicted him because they didn’t like him. He was stupid to go and see the bodies for himself, but he was right not to break privilege. And no Bruner never waived privilege. 

I like Bodies because it has a good investigation and Bruner is one of the most memorable, creepiest villains in L&O history, the scene in his dump of a residence where he pulls out the huge knife was chilling and memorable. But I was against them prosecuting Schwimmer, he was stupid to go and visit the bodies but he was right not to break privilege. 

[shapeshifter]

As soon as sweaty-faced Bruner showed up on my screen I left the room to do other things and just listened. IMO, the sweaty make-up was an over-the-top choice that distracts from the decent acting of Ritchie Coster. He may not have earned awards, but he delivers creepiness just fine without enhancements. 

[Spartan Girl]

8 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I actually was on the side of the defense attorney in Bodies, he shouldn’t have had to break attorney client privilege and reveal what Bruner told him, and he was right to stand by his principles. I know that’s probably an unpopular opinion here but it’s one of the few times I was on the side of the defense in a case, but he was right to not break privilege, and I think his conviction would be overturned on appeal as the jury didn’t convict him on evidence, they convicted him because they didn’t like him. He was stupid to go and see the bodies for himself, but he was right not to break privilege. And no Bruner never waived privilege. 

I like Bodies because it has a good investigation and Bruner is one of the most memorable, creepiest villains in L&O history, the scene in his dump of a residence where he pulls out the huge knife was chilling and memorable. But I was against them prosecuting Schwimmer, he was stupid to go and visit the bodies but he was right not to break privilege. 

Schimmer didn't just go and see the bodies, he locked them back up. That's accessory after the fact. Stupidity doesn't change that.

Maybe I might have been inclined to feel more sympathy for him had he been portrayed as a rookie clearly out of his league and had no idea what he was doing, instead of an opportunistic weasel with an initial morbid fascination of having a serial killer for a client. At least then his speeches about the legal system wouldn't have sounded so sanctimonious.

What really bothered me is that he didn't even seem rattled that he saw the bodies, he was only upset when Bruner outed him to Jack and Serena. He didn't even seem ashamed when the victims' parents were lashing out at him on the stand. It was just "poor me, poor me, I can't tell anyone".

Jamie was in a similar mess when she found out her client framed another man for murder, but her legal principles didn't stop her from doing the right thing and making an anonymous call to the judge or whoever saying they had the wrong guy. 

[Broderbits]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Jamie was in a similar mess when she found out her client framed another man for murder, but her legal principles didn't stop her from doing the right thing and making an anonymous call to the judge or whoever saying they had the wrong guy.

And didn't her actions land her in front of the board of bar overseers facing suspension or disbarment? That's what the lawyer in "Bodies" was afraid of, since breaking privilege is a huge no-no and he could have lost his license. Jack knew this perfectly well, but didn't give a damn.

 

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Jamie was in a similar mess when she found out her client framed another man for murder, but her legal principles didn't stop her from doing the right thing and making an anonymous call to the judge or whoever saying they had the wrong guy. 

5 minutes ago, Broderbits said:

And didn't her actions land her in front of the board of bar overseers facing suspension or disbarment? That's what the lawyer in "Bodies" was afraid of, since breaking privilege is a huge no-no and he could have lost his license. Jack knew this perfectly well, but didn't give a damn.

 

 

Yes, yes they did. But whatever censure Jamie got, it wasn't too bad, because she ended up being a judge on L&O: Trial By Jury.

As weaselly as the defense attorney was in "Bodies" he was right not to break privilege. And even though he put the bodies back, which was wrong--even if Jack charged him with accessory after the fact--if he was a good lawyer, he wouldn't incriminate himself.

That's what I love about the mothership. It had nuance. And sometimes they actually got the law right. As much as it pisses us off.

Of course, now I'm a hypocrite, because nothing that ass Melnick did, would have me giving her the benefit of the doubt. Except in her very first appearance, where she hardly spoke and we never knew her name: "Aria" I think it was. She represented the victim's sister in civil court. And I only know she played Melnick because of the credits on IMdB!

[Spartan Girl]

Yes, Jamie got censured after what she did and yes it was fair. But morally, it was still the right thing to do.

@GHScorpiosRule it is true that the show got the law right, even when it pissed us off. But I will never bring myself to have any sympathy for that lawyer. He's just as bad as that twat Melnick -- who I might add NEVER got censured or anything for that crap she pulled in "Open Season." Not even the horror of getting someone killed or getting shot herself taught her a damn thing.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, Spartan Girl said:

 

@GHScorpiosRule it is true that the show got the law right, even when it pissed us off. But I will never bring myself to have any sympathy for that lawyer. He's just as bad as that twat Melnick -- who I might add NEVER got censured or anything for that crap she pulled in "Open Season." Not even the horror of getting someone killed or getting shot herself taught her a damn thing.

Don't get me wrong--I had NO SYMPATHY for him. I was pissed at him and hated his weaselly ass.

I think Melnick did get in trouble later on I think? Because she told her client something that she wasn't supposed to and it blew up in her face? We got Jack with his "WHO GIVES A DAMN WHAT YOU THINK!" Or was it "I DON'T GIVE A DAMN!" It was something glorious.

[Broderbits]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

But whatever censure Jamie got, it wasn't too bad, because she ended up being a judge on L&O: Trial By Jury.

No kidding! I vaguely remember that show, but no details at all (except the pleasure of seeing Lenny Briscoe again, however briefly).

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Broderbits said:

No kidding! I vaguely remember that show, but no details at all (except the pleasure of seeing Lenny Briscoe again, however briefly).

Yeah. There was one episode, where the Most AWESOME Asif Mandvi, who had appeared on all three versions, was playing a hardass Judge. He and Jamie were either working out at the same gym, and they talked about him being a hardass (cops were calling him a jerk), or someone complained to Jamie, who then went to see Mandvi (Judge Patel) to talk to him about it.

Edited June 25, 2020 by GHScorpiosRule
stoopid computer!

[Xeliou66]

Trial By Jury was a decent show IMO, I liked the concept of it and the cases, but it was hurt by the death of Briscoe/Orbach, and the fact that they never addressed it, they filmed a scene where the characters were returning from Lennie’s funeral but for some stupid reason they cut it. The 2 lead prosecutors were rather wooden and Lennie’s replacement wasn’t great either, I did like Salazar, Briscoe’s partner. So I thought the characters were rather dull but the show itself was good, and a lot of familiar faces from the L&O franchise showed up on TBJ, they did crossovers with the Mothership and SVU, and a lot of familiar faces were on that show - Arthur Branch was a regular as DA, Briscoe was in the first 2 episodes as a regular before Orbach died, McCoy appeared a couple of times, Ross appeared as a judge, several L&O characters and SVU characters appeared in the crossover episodes, Olivet was in an episode, as was ME Rodgers, and several familiar defense attorneys and judges were on TBJ as well. So I liked the show and thought it could’ve gone longer than just 13 episodes, if it had been better cast and if Orbach hadn’t died it would’ve gone longer IMO. 

 

Edited June 26, 2020 by Xeliou66

[Xeliou66]

10 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Don't get me wrong--I had NO SYMPATHY for him. I was pissed at him and hated his weaselly ass.

I think Melnick did get in trouble later on I think? Because she told her client something that she wasn't supposed to and it blew up in her face? We got Jack with his "WHO GIVES A DAMN WHAT YOU THINK!" Or was it "I DON'T GIVE A DAMN!" It was something glorious.

Yes that was in America Inc, in season 16, when Melnick was basically putting her own agenda ahead of her clients and McCoy berated her, screaming “WHO GIVES A DAMN WHAT YOU THINK ANYWAY?!!!” She still didn’t get in trouble for it, her client took McCoy’s plea offer but Melnick didn’t get in trouble. It pissed me off that Melnick didn’t face more serious consequences after her actions in Open Season. I always found Melnick to be almost unbearably smug and self righteous, I’m glad I’m not the only one who was annoyed with her and her holier than thou personality.

[andromeda331]

4 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yes that was in America Inc, in season 16, when Melnick was basically putting her own agenda ahead of her clients and McCoy berated her, screaming “WHO GIVES A DAMN WHAT YOU THINK ANYWAY?!!!” She still didn’t get in trouble for it, her client took McCoy’s plea offer but Melnick didn’t get in trouble. It pissed me off that Melnick didn’t face more serious consequences after her actions in Open Season. I always found Melnick to be almost unbearably smug and self righteous, I’m glad I’m not the only one who was annoyed with her and her holier than thou personality.

So did I. I hated her. She should have been disbarred and convicted on charges in Open Season she disobeyed a court order that lead to a man's murder.

[WendyCR72]

8 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Trial By Jury was a decent show IMO, I liked the concept of it and the cases, but it was hurt by the death of Briscoe/Orbach, and the fact that they never addressed it, they filmed a scene where the characters were returning from Lennie’s funeral but for some stupid reason they cut it. The 2 lead prosecutors were rather wooden and Lennie’s replacement wasn’t great either, I did like Salazar, Briscoe’s partner. So I thought the characters were rather dull but the show itself was good, and a lot of familiar faces from the L&O franchise showed up on TBJ, they did crossovers with the Mothership and SVU, and a lot of familiar faces were on that show - Arthur Branch was a regular as DA, Briscoe was in the first 2 episodes as a regular before Orbach died, McCoy appeared a couple of times, Ross appeared as a judge, several L&O characters and SVU characters appeared in the crossover episodes, Olivet was in an episode, as was ME Rodgers, and several familiar defense attorneys and judges were on TBJ as well. So I liked the show and thought it could’ve gone longer than just 13 episodes, if it had been better cast and if Orbach hadn’t died it would’ve gone longer IMO. 

 

Bebe Neuwirth, the female lead of TBJ, is a wonderful actress (known for Broadway - and her Lilith Sternin-Crane character on Cheers was great!). But the character on TBJ seemed like a cipher. Maybe the show needed better writing, as most of the actors were good. Of the failed L&O shows, I'd take TBJ over Los Angeles.

[Xeliou66]

1 minute ago, WendyCR72 said:

Bebe Neuwirth, the female lead of TBJ, is a wonderful actress (known for Broadway - and her Lilith Sternin-Crane character on Cheers was great!). But the character on TBJ seemed like a cipher. Maybe the show needed better writing, as most of the actors were good. Of the failed L&O shows, I'd take TBJ over Los Angeles.

Yeah the characters on TBJ were rather dull. I would take it over LA I agree, LA had some potential but they didn’t know what they were doing it seemed like. I enjoyed the cases and format of TBJ. 

 

2 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

So did I. I hated her. She should have been disbarred and convicted on charges in Open Season she disobeyed a court order that lead to a man's murder.

Yes, I agree completely. I loathed that McCoy went to bat for her and helped her not only escape charges but keep her license after what she did in Open Season. She should’ve been disbarred and probably should’ve gone to prison, she blatantly disobeyed a court order and was unapologetic and self righteous about the whole thing, just like she was the rest of the time. 

[WendyCR72]

Before we go back on topic, speaking of the failed L&O shows, I'm rather surprised that Peacock secured streaming rights for the main 3 - which have been broadcast everywhere numerous times (yet I still watch!), but nothing for the two not seen in years. Ditto L&O-adjacent Conviction.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, WendyCR72 said:

Before we go back on topic, speaking of the failed L&O shows, I'm rather surprised that Peacock secured streaming rights for the main 3 - which have been broadcast everywhere numerous times (yet I still watch!), but nothing for the two not seen in years. Ditto L&O-adjacent Conviction.

But not ALL episodes of this show will be available!!! Which defeats the purpose!

[WendyCR72]

Just now, GHScorpiosRule said:

But not ALL episodes of this show will be available!!! Which defeats the purpose!

Wait, they won't?! ALL seasons of SNL will be available yet not this? I wonder why?!

[andromeda331]

9 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yes, I agree completely. I loathed that McCoy went to bat for her and helped her not only escape charges but keep her license after what she did in Open Season. She should’ve been disbarred and probably should’ve gone to prison, she blatantly disobeyed a court order and was unapologetic and self righteous about the whole thing, just like she was the rest of the time. 

So did I. She did nothing to deserve his help and had no remorse. She deserved all the consequences for her actions. That should have been the episode she finally got what she deserved.  

[dargosmydaddy]

On 6/25/2020 at 10:40 PM, WendyCR72 said:

Ditto L&O-adjacent Conviction.

Aw, I loved Conviction back in the day. I even have the DVDs somewhere.

[Xeliou66]

I watched Age of Innocence tonight and I have to say I absolutely hated everyone involved in the murder - the family was delusional thinking the comatose daughter/sister would wake up and wanting her to live in a vegetative state and they murdered the husband who was just trying to end her suffering and do what was right. The reverend was an opportunist, publicity hungry piece of crap, and I loved Fontana calling him a “bomb throwing phony”, and it was infuriating that the jury didn’t convict him. At least the brother and father went to prison. But yeah, fuck them all, they were a bunch of self righteous asswipes. Good episode though, one of season 16’s better ones IMO.

Edited June 28, 2020 by Xeliou66

[Xeliou66]

I’ve been watching L&O on WE today, and I saw Nora Lewin’s first episode, Endurance, and what a massive drop off it was from having Schiff as DA to having Nora - right off the bat in Nora’s first episode, it showed how she lacked authority as well as personality with how McCoy basically tanked the case against the mom who set the fire/killed the disabled son. I personally believed that they should’ve allowed the manslaughter count to be added so the jury would likely convict on that, I think McCoy was wrong to just tank the case, and I don’t think he would’ve done that if Schiff or Arthur Branch were DA, they had the authority to reign him in, Nora just stands aside, and then at the end Nora said she would’ve tried to get a conviction but that she was glad it was McCoy trying the case, well Nora could’ve ordered McCoy to include the manslaughter charge or she could’ve removed him from the case since he didn’t even want to win it, Nora was the boss in the office, but she did nothing but show that she was weak and indecisive and that she could easily be run over. 

I did wonder what McCoy said in his closing argument, since he didn’t even want to win the case. How could he be so sure the jury wouldn’t convict on murder 2? His handling of the case just annoyed me, and Nora’s do nothing but stand on the sidelines and pontificate stance annoyed me more. 

I did like Rudy Giuliani introducing Nora, it was always cool when they got a real life prominent figure to appear as themself on the show, and I liked that they talked about what Schiff was up to in his retirement and it made sense for Schiff to be both traveling and active in social issues in his retirement. 

The case was good, especially the investigation part, that part was almost always good with Briscoe and Green, but I was annoyed with McCoy and was puzzled as to how he handled the case and Nora was such a soft DA and such a dropoff from Schiff.

[DXD526]

I liked the opposing lawyer at the end, telling Jack that the next time he can get reduced charges, he should go for it. Like he was telling the DA something he didn't already know! He was apparently the only one in the room who hadn't figured out that Jack was tanking the case. 

[Xeliou66]

6 hours ago, DXD526 said:

I liked the opposing lawyer at the end, telling Jack that the next time he can get reduced charges, he should go for it. Like he was telling the DA something he didn't already know! He was apparently the only one in the room who hadn't figured out that Jack was tanking the case. 

That lawyer was an idiot, he wasn’t one of the lawyers who acted dumb but was actually sharp (such as Dworkin), he was just a moron. 

Considering how bad of an attorney he was, again how could Jack be so sure they would find her not guilty by reason of insanity instead of convicting her? I would’ve loved to have heard what McCoy’s closing argument was, since he didn’t even want to win, but he would still have to give a closing, it would’ve been interesting if the jury had convicted on murder 2 in spite of McCoy’s not wanting to win. 

Something just rubbed me the wrong way about the ending of that case, I wasn’t sure why McCoy decided to tank the case, and I didn’t like how Nora didn’t really do anything in the episode, it just showed her lack of authority. 

[wknt3]

On 7/1/2020 at 9:47 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I’ve been watching L&O on WE today, and I saw Nora Lewin’s first episode, Endurance, and what a massive drop off it was from having Schiff as DA to having Nora - right off the bat in Nora’s first episode, it showed how she lacked authority as well as personality with how McCoy basically tanked the case against the mom who set the fire/killed the disabled son. I personally believed that they should’ve allowed the manslaughter count to be added so the jury would likely convict on that, I think McCoy was wrong to just tank the case, and I don’t think he would’ve done that if Schiff or Arthur Branch were DA, they had the authority to reign him in, Nora just stands aside, and then at the end Nora said she would’ve tried to get a conviction but that she was glad it was McCoy trying the case, well Nora could’ve ordered McCoy to include the manslaughter charge or she could’ve removed him from the case since he didn’t even want to win it, Nora was the boss in the office, but she did nothing but show that she was weak and indecisive and that she could easily be run over. 

I did wonder what McCoy said in his closing argument, since he didn’t even want to win the case. How could he be so sure the jury wouldn’t convict on murder 2? His handling of the case just annoyed me, and Nora’s do nothing but stand on the sidelines and pontificate stance annoyed me more. 

I did like Rudy Giuliani introducing Nora, it was always cool when they got a real life prominent figure to appear as themself on the show, and I liked that they talked about what Schiff was up to in his retirement and it made sense for Schiff to be both traveling and active in social issues in his retirement. 

The case was good, especially the investigation part, that part was almost always good with Briscoe and Green, but I was annoyed with McCoy and was puzzled as to how he handled the case and Nora was such a soft DA and such a dropoff from Schiff.

 

In hindsight this set the template for Lewin's tenure on the show. It was not unsual at all for a character's debut to be underwhelming (heck who would have thought Lennie Briscoe would be a great character, let alone first ballot TVHOF based on "Point of View"?) but  in this case they never course corrected. Having watched all of her episodes more than once I think I have figured out what they were going for with her - basically the opposite of Adam, an academic who was an interim and not interested in staying in office and therefore more interested in sending a message by going after the powerful or nu using prosecutorial discretion to acknowledge broader issues that effected criminal actions rather than in getting convictions. Which could have made for an interesting character if they had done something with it, particularly if they had developed the thread of her being a former federal prosecutor who was supposed to be a savvy operator, but they never did except for a glimpse here and there, which were not coincidentally her best moments (like slapping down the judge in "Dissonance"). I think the worse mistakes the show made were when then they prioritized being different from what came before over creating interesting characters (they would do the same thing with Serena and Borgia and it was not a coincidence that the legal side would never be as good until they decided to just find a great actress and write a top notch lawyer with personality even if she was pretty similar to Ross). I also think they never really figured out how to really write for her - too often they just transcribed legal textbooks rather than bothering to give her a fully fleshed out personality.

Edited July 3, 2020 by wknt3

[shapeshifter]

In 15.17 "License to Kill" Jack prosecutes the guy who engaged in a drawn-out, high-speed car chase with a killer that resulted in a crash with a death and multiple injuries. 
If the killer had survived, wouldn't the killer have been the one prosecuted for "felony murder"? 
FWIW, the verdict against the chaser was Not Guilty.

[Xeliou66]

9 hours ago, wknt3 said:

 

In hindsight this set the template for Lewin's tenure on the show. It was not unsual at all for a character's debut to be underwhelming (heck who would have thought Lennie Briscoe would be a great character, let alone first ballot TVHOF based on "Point of View"?) but  in this case they never course corrected. Having watched all of her episodes more than once I think I have figured out what they were going for with her - basically the opposite of Adam, an academic who was an interim and not interested in staying in office and therefore more interested in sending a message by going after the powerful or nu using prosecutorial discretion to acknowledge broader issues that effected criminal actions rather than in getting convictions. Which could have made for an interesting character if they had done something with it, particularly if they had developed the thread of her being a former federal prosecutor who was supposed to be a savvy operator, but they never did except for a glimpse here and there, which were not coincidentally her best moments (like slapping down the judge in "Dissonance"). I think the worse mistakes the show made were when then they prioritized being different from what came before over creating interesting characters (they would do the same thing with Serena and Borgia and it was not a coincidence that the legal side would never be as good until they decided to just find a great actress and write a top notch lawyer with personality even if she was pretty similar to Ross). I also think they never really figured out how to really write for her - too often they just transcribed legal textbooks rather than bothering to give her a fully fleshed out personality.

Very good post - Endurance definitely set the tone for Nora’s tenure, she was soft, dull and lacked authority, she mainly just stood on the sidelines and made comments about cases - she had moments where she was interesting and could’ve been a good character, but for the most part she was just dull and soft and lacked presence and authority. She was a huge dropoff from Schiff as DA. 

4 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

In 15.17 "License to Kill" Jack prosecutes the guy who engaged in a drawn-out, high-speed car chase with a killer that resulted in a crash with a death and multiple injuries. 
If the killer had survived, wouldn't the killer have been the one prosecuted for "felony murder"? 
FWIW, the verdict against the chaser was Not Guilty.

The killer certainly would’ve been prosecuted for the murders of the hunting party had he survived. The guy who engaged in the high speed chase with the killer was charged with manslaughter in the death of the boy the killer had as a hostage in the vehicle. I believed that the driver deserved to be convicted of something as he was reckless and he was lucky more people didn’t die as a result of the crash, but I think his intentions were noble and he thought he was doing the right thing. That was a tough case, one of the best episodes of season 15.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

Very good post - Endurance definitely set the tone for Nora’s tenure, she was soft, dull and lacked authority, she mainly just stood on the sidelines and made comments about cases - she had moments where she was interesting and could’ve been a good character, but for the most part she was just dull and soft and lacked presence and authority. She was a huge dropoff from Schiff as DA. 

The killer certainly would’ve been prosecuted for the murders of the hunting party had he survived. The guy who engaged in the high speed chase with the killer was charged with manslaughter in the death of the boy the killer had as a hostage in the vehicle. I believed that the driver deserved to be convicted of something as he was reckless and he was lucky more people didn’t die as a result of the crash, but I think his intentions were noble and he thought he was doing the right thing. That was a tough case, one of the best episodes of season 15.

I liked the exploration of gray areas in 15.17 "License to Kill." When the driver was testifying, I came to the conclusion that he was at first half trying to do what was right and half trying to be a hero, but as time went on, he just wasn't thinking very clearly. When he left the scene, he was no longer being even a tiny bit noble. I kind of wish he'd been found guilty but only been given probation and community service. Is that possible with any form of a manslaughter charge?

[Xeliou66]

14 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I liked the exploration of gray areas in 15.17 "License to Kill." When the driver was testifying, I came to the conclusion that he was at first half trying to do what was right and half trying to be a hero, but as time went on, he just wasn't thinking very clearly. When he left the scene, he was no longer being even a tiny bit noble. I kind of wish he'd been found guilty but only been given probation and community service. Is that possible with any form of a manslaughter charge?

I’m pretty sure a manslaughter conviction guarantees some prison time. I think he should’ve been convicted of a charge of reckless endangerment perhaps or something like that, I think he deserved to be found guilty of something but I’m not sure if he deserved prison time or not. I liked the exploration of the gray areas as well, and I think that it might be my favorite episode of season 15, which was the season when the writing started to slip a bit and continued to for the next couple of years before the show rebounded in season 18. 

[dargosmydaddy]

So a few weeks ago, Jeremy Sisto was (very awkwardly) on Hollywood Game Night, and I commented on that thread that now that he has shown a willingness to do game shows I hoped he would be on Anthony Anderson's To Tell the Truth. And now I just checked next week's TTTT panel on the ABC website, and there's Sisto! If anyone else wants to see the game show version of a Bernard/Lupo reunion, tune in on Thursday...

[GHScorpiosRule]

Yeah, as @Xeliou66 and @wknt3 state, Nora was too weak and too much of a professor (if that’s the correct word) and ineffectual as District Attorney. I found it difficult to believe she was a federal prosecutor. And she acted too much like a starry groupie/fan in that scene with the then sane Giuliani.

To go back to the first season airing on Bounce, I can’t recall which episode, but they edited out the scene where Mike was telling Max about one of his latest hookups (Mike, that slut!🤪😝) when he was awakened by a gila lizard or some such. 
 

I was disappointed because this was one of the good things the mothership did-sprinkle tidbits about the characters’ personal lives without it taking over the show until stupid Rey Curtis joined. Not to mention it was funny! Was it in ”Torrents of Greed”?
 

I’m a third into season 2, and I see some light flirting between Liz and Mike. See? Sprinkling to seed possibility of a relationship to be believable when brought up years later.

Edited July 4, 2020 by GHScorpiosRule

[Xeliou66]

Yeah I just had difficulty buying Nora as DA or as a prosecutor of any sort - she lacked authority and never made decisions, and was way too soft for a DA, along with having a total lack of charisma and personality. She was a weak character, one of the worst in L&O history, and it was especially noticeable since she was following the awesome and legendary Adam Schiff - Nora even said during her very first scene that it was daunting coming in behind Schiff, and it did show. Nora had a few moments where she was interesting, but for the most part her lack of authority plus her lack of charisma made her one of the show’s weakest characters. 

[balmz]

been meaning to ask this but keep forgetting to, with the hate crimes and organized crime spinoffs and the ideas being somewhat divisive here, here's a fun question

 

if you could make your own spin off for the franchise what would you want to see done for an idea or location? also what ideas for interesting good characters would you put in the show, since characters like nora, cassidy and fontana weren't really liked

 

i liked the uk version and i always thought a canada version might be interesting, another idea is one set in San Diego or Detroit, basically it would be like the mothership but set there 

hopefully the franchise could still have good ideas for a spin off and this doesn't become this

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1TV9uh2L7w

 

also here's an idea for a character for any spinoff

Silvia-  a female detective, she is overly sympathetic to female perps and even if they did horrific things and it is 100% their fault, she will go and whisper "it's not your fault" in fact spends 90% of the time whispering and making it nearly impossible to hear her, she also does not use a gun in the field and uses a katana instead of a gun and somehow always avoids getting fired or killed or proven wrong

 

[wknt3]

On 7/5/2020 at 8:49 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah I just had difficulty buying Nora as DA or as a prosecutor of any sort - she lacked authority and never made decisions, and was way too soft for a DA, along with having a total lack of charisma and personality. She was a weak character, one of the worst in L&O history, and it was especially noticeable since she was following the awesome and legendary Adam Schiff - Nora even said during her very first scene that it was daunting coming in behind Schiff, and it did show. Nora had a few moments where she was interesting, but for the most part her lack of authority plus her lack of charisma made her one of the show’s weakest characters. 

As I said before I think the writers never really figured out what to do with the character other than be sad it wasn't Adam and be happy they didn't have to the hard work of taking the abstract and filtering it through a character's POV and practical concerns and could just have her recite the points they wanted to raise. I wish that the difficulty of following Adam showed, but that would have required actually depicting it it on screen, just like having us remember and believe that she was a former federal prosecutor and a distinguished attorney as well as a professor of legal ethics would have required her actually making a constructive suggestion, or making an astute observation more than once a season or so,

 

17 hours ago, balmz said:

been meaning to ask this but keep forgetting to, with the hate crimes and organized crime spinoffs and the ideas being somewhat divisive here, here's a fun question

if you could make your own spin off for the franchise what would you want to see done for an idea or location? also what ideas for interesting good characters would you put in the show, since characters like nora, cassidy and fontana weren't really liked

i liked the uk version and i always thought a canada version might be interesting, another idea is one set in San Diego or Detroit, basically it would be like the mothership but set there

If there is one lesson from the spinoffs it's that "just like the mothership" is a recipe for quick cancellation and you need to do something different and distinctive. Especially doing the same thing, but set in a different city (see Law & Order: LA).

Edited July 8, 2020 by wknt3
accidentally deleted words before posting

[Xeliou66]

Law and Order LA could’ve been successful IMO, it wasn’t as bad as some people say IMO, but it was hurt by a bunch of turnover i the cast and it was weird how they alternated prosecutors in each episode, then had a prosecutor become a detective.  Also, the police Lieutenant and the DA didn’t appear in every episode, and the DA was written as more of an antagonist than a protagonist. 

As for our discussion about Nora - she could’ve been interesting, and her best episode was Teenage Wasteland where she was forced to decide about asking for the death penalty despite her personal beliefs, but it seemed like the writers just didn’t put in the effort to make Nora interesting and as a result the character lacked authority as well as personality and seemed all too often to just be standing on the sidelines doing nothing. I’m not sure how much was the actress and how much was the writing, but she could’ve been a lot more interesting than she was. 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Xeliou66

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Law and Order LA could’ve been successful IMO, it wasn’t as bad as some people say IMO, but it was hurt by a bunch of turnover i the cast and it was weird how they alternated prosecutors in each episode, then had a prosecutor become a detective.  Also, the police Lieutenant and the DA didn’t appear in every episode, and the DA was written as more of an antagonist than a protagonist. 

As for our discussion about Nora - she could’ve been interesting, and her best episode was Teenage Wasteland where she was forced to decide about asking for the death penalty despite her personal beliefs, but it seemed like the writers just didn’t put in the effort to make Nora interesting and as a result the character lacked authority as well as personality and seemed all too often to just be standing on the sidelines doing nothing. I’m not sure how much was the actress and how much was the writing, but she could’ve been a lot more interesting than she was. 

I agree. Too often the scenes with Nora reminded me more of McCoy talking with his former college professor then talking with the DA. I know they wanted someone different from Adam which I get. I hate shows that replace someone with another character that's basically the same one. But they really didn't have Nora do anything but stand on the sidelines or wax poetry about murderers. Teenage Wasteland was good episode for her because while she did search for a way to keep from using the death penalty but in the end she did her job. I really liked that. 

Edited July 9, 2020 by andromeda331

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

I agree. To often the scenes with Nora reminded me more of McCoy talking with his former college professor then talking with the DA. I know they wanted someone different from Adam which I get. I hate shows that replace someone with another character that's basically the same one. But they really didn't have Nora do anything but stand on the sidelines or wax poetry about murderers. Teenage Wasteland was good episode for her because while she did search for a way to keep from using the death penalty but in the end she did her job. I really liked that. 

Absolutely, I know that Adam was incredibly hard to replace but if they had tried harder Nora could’ve been a lot more interesting, Nora should’ve acted more like a DA instead of an academic, I just had a hard time buying her as a DA, I wish she had shown more authority instead of just being on the sidelines, she had moments where she was good but for the most part she was just kind of there doing nothing and adding nothing to the show. She lacked charisma.

I know Arthur Branch is a polarizing character among L&O fans, but he had a lot of charisma and personality and wasn’t afraid to exercise his authority. He was a much better DA than Nora IMO, and he always added something to his scenes.