Law & Order Discussion Topic (2019 - 2021)

[ML89]

12 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

So I had the SiriusXM site open and noticed on Bruce Springsteen's channel a song called "New York City Serenade" by Jill Hennessy. Looked it up and it is indeed the former Claire Kincaid herself. 

Guess she's concentrating on a music career now.

I remember reading somewhere that she busked in the subway when she first got to NYC? I think she’s done an album. I know she’s done sets at Chris Noth’s club The Cutting Room.

Really random side note - her twin Jacqueline is the narrator of Love It or List It in Canada. 

[Xeliou66]

I saw Bible Story today, this episode really irritates me - the killer should’ve gotten a far longer sentence, 5 years for beating a guy to death was a joke, he believed that a book was more important than a human life, fuck that guy, and Borgia seemed to act like his defense had merit because she was religious herself, another episode where I absolutely hated Borgia, she was self righteous. McCoy’s outrage about the killer acting like a book was more important than a human life was great, but then he turns around and makes a sweetheart deal with the killer. And then McCoy charges the guy who hired the victim to destroy the book, the killer’s cousin, with murder, despite it being a very weak case, and I didn’t get why Branch let him go ahead with it. And then the killer says that his cousin shouldn’t go to prison after all, McCoy never should’ve prosecuted him. And it’s ridiculous that the cousin convicted of the burglary/destroying the book got the same amount of prison time as the killer, only one of them beat someone to death. This episode really pisses me off all around.

Season 16 wasn’t one of L&O’s strongest seasons, in fact I might argue that it was the second weakest behind season 17, the episodes were just not as strong. 

[Xeliou66]

I watched some of season 17 yesterday, this is definitely the weakest season of L&O, the writing was just not up to the standards of other seasons - there were a lot of episodes that were either just dull or sloppily written. Besides Cassady was just awful, she was beyond wooden and dull and had zero chemistry with the rest of the cast, terrible character. 

I saw Good Faith, I do like this episode, I liked the legal stuff in it, I found Melnick infuriating and her religious nutjob client was despicable. Melnick’s self righteous smugness was why I frequently disliked her, and it was on full display in this episode, acting as though her client was being persecuted for his beliefs, and telling McCoy it was the “right principle” was pathetic, what was the right principle, wanting people to get away with murder if they were religious fanatics? Her client was a piece of shit, I felt for his daughter, having been subjected to his fanaticism after losing her mother, it’s no wonder she was screwed up and an easy target for the guidance counselor to manipulate into having sex with him, I wondered what would happen to her. It is a good episode, and I liked McCoy’s arguments, Melnick really irritated me in that one.

Rubirosa was a great addition to the show, she’s one of my favorite prosecutors and she added in a spark to the legal side of the show that hadn’t been there with her dull and frequently annoying predecessors, Serena and Borgia.

[Spartan Girl]

5 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I saw Good Faith, I do like this episode, I liked the legal stuff in it, I found Melnick infuriating and her religious nutjob client was despicable. Melnick’s self righteous smugness was why I frequently disliked her, and it was on full display in this episode, acting as though her client was being persecuted for his beliefs, and telling McCoy it was the “right principle” was pathetic, what was the right principle, wanting people to get away with murder if they were religious fanatics? Her client was a piece of shit, I felt for his daughter, having been subjected to his fanaticism after losing her mother, it’s no wonder she was screwed up and an easy target for the guidance counselor to manipulate into having sex with him, I wondered what would happen to her. It is a good episode, and I liked McCoy’s arguments, Melnick really irritated me in that one.

Agreed, and that's saying something when Melnick pisses me off in EVERY episode she's in.

I would've felt sorrier for the daughter if her lie hadn't gotten an innocent man killed. 

[Xeliou66]

28 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Agreed, and that's saying something when Melnick pisses me off in EVERY episode she's in.

I would've felt sorrier for the daughter if her lie hadn't gotten an innocent man killed. 

I felt for the daughter because she was understandably terrified of and screwed up by her father, and on top of that she had been taken advantage of by the guidance counselor. She was in such a bad state it was understandable to me that she blurted out Nash’s name instead of the guidance counselor’s, so I still felt a lot of sympathy for her, her piece of shit father really damaged her IMO with his talk about her burning in hell along with her mother etc. He was really despicable, and deceitful as well with how he pretended he killed Nash over the evolution issue. I hope he went to prison for life, he probably would since McCoy said he was going for a sentence of 25 to life. 

Melnick really pissed me off in this episode with her self righteous behavior, she acted like McCoy was doing something immoral or unethical with his prosecution and acted like her client was the victim of some witch hunt. Her behavior really rubbed me the wrong way in this episode, and yeah I frequently found her annoying, condescending and self righteous, but never more so than in Good Faith. 

I do like Good Faith a lot, I found the case to be compelling, a lot better than most season 17 episodes.

[txhorns79]

16 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

 

I saw Good Faith, I do like this episode, I liked the legal stuff in it, I found Melnick infuriating and her religious nutjob client was despicable. Melnick’s self righteous smugness was why I frequently disliked her, and it was on full display in this episode, acting as though her client was being persecuted for his beliefs, and telling McCoy it was the “right principle” was pathetic, what was the right principle, wanting people to get away with murder if they were religious fanatics? Her client was a piece of shit, I felt for his daughter, having been subjected to his fanaticism after losing her mother, it’s no wonder she was screwed up and an easy target for the guidance counselor to manipulate into having sex with him, I wondered what would happen to her. It is a good episode, and I liked McCoy’s arguments, Melnick really irritated me in that one.

Heck, Melnick was shot by a former client's fanatical follower, so she's seen first hand what happens when people think their fanaticism is a justification for them to commit violent acts.  I get that every defendant is entitled to a zealous defense, but Melnick's strategy didn't pass the laugh test, and was very dangerous to boot.  

[Spartan Girl]

Too bad the fanatic didn't succeed in killing her.

I mean you'd think that whole ordeal, not to mention being the unwitting accomplice to her client murdering ANOTHER person because she flouted a judge's order to seal him off from communicating with his group would have taught her a lesson BUT NOOOOOOO...

Sorry I still don't pity the daughter. Being abused by her dad and the guidance counselor doesn't justify throwing an innocent person under the bus. Even if her dad hadn't killed him, he might have gotten fired and/or thrown in jail for a crime he didn't commit.

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Too bad the fanatic didn't succeed in killing her.

I mean you'd think that whole ordeal, not to mention being the unwitting accomplice to her client murdering ANOTHER person because she flouted a judge's order to seal him off from communicating with his group would have taught her a lesson BUT NOOOOOOO...

Sorry I still don't pity the daughter. Being abused by her dad and the guidance counselor doesn't justify throwing an innocent person under the bus. Even if her dad hadn't killed him, he might have gotten fired and/or thrown in jail for a crime he didn't commit.

I so wish the fanatic had killed her. That would have been so awesome and we wouldn't have to put up with her ever again. The perfect ending for Melnick. But even without her dead. Melnick should have been in jail and disbarred after that one. She knowingly violated a judge's order that lead to a man's murder. There's no way she shouldn't have been in jail and lost her license. 

[Xeliou66]

5 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Too bad the fanatic didn't succeed in killing her.

I mean you'd think that whole ordeal, not to mention being the unwitting accomplice to her client murdering ANOTHER person because she flouted a judge's order to seal him off from communicating with his group would have taught her a lesson BUT NOOOOOOO...

Sorry I still don't pity the daughter. Being abused by her dad and the guidance counselor doesn't justify throwing an innocent person under the bus. Even if her dad hadn't killed him, he might have gotten fired and/or thrown in jail for a crime he didn't commit.

 

2 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I so wish the fanatic had killed her. That would have been so awesome and we wouldn't have to put up with her ever again. The perfect ending for Melnick. But even without her dead. Melnick should have been in jail and disbarred after that one. She knowingly violated a judge's order that lead to a man's murder. There's no way she shouldn't have been in jail and lost her license. 

Yeah, Melnick was a self righteous bitch most of the time, and after her actions in Open Season she should’ve been disbarred, I didn’t like McCoy helping her out in that episode. And in Good Faith she pissed me off more than ever with her self righteous lecturing, and saying that defending her client was the “right principle” what the fuck does that mean, does she believe that religious zealots should get a free pass for murder because of their beliefs? Melnick was so fucking full of herself and condescending, I wouldn’t have cared if she was killed at the end of Open Season, I always found her extremely unlikable. The only time I thought Melnick made good points was in City Hall - she made some good points about the government having too much power, her client was obviously guilty but she did make valid points. 

As for the daughter, I did feel sympathy for her, she was understandably screwed up and scared after all she had been through. 

[andromeda331]

47 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

 

Yeah, Melnick was a self righteous bitch most of the time, and after her actions in Open Season she should’ve been disbarred, I didn’t like McCoy helping her out in that episode. And in Good Faith she pissed me off more than ever with her self righteous lecturing, and saying that defending her client was the “right principle” what the fuck does that mean, does she believe that religious zealots should get a free pass for murder because of their beliefs? Melnick was so fucking full of herself and condescending, I wouldn’t have cared if she was killed at the end of Open Season, I always found her extremely unlikable. The only time I thought Melnick made good points was in City Hall - she made some good points about the government having too much power, her client was obviously guilty but she did make valid points. 

As for the daughter, I did feel sympathy for her, she was understandably screwed up and scared after all she had been through. 

See I had a hard time with her in that episode too. Because her client shot up City Hall. He was pissed about what happened to him as he should be. That terrible. That mistake that was ruining him. But then he went and shot up City Hall. The only one I think I liked her in was Survivor and maybe Aria which she wasn't the gigantic bitch she is in all other episodes she's in.  Defending that horrible rapist doctor she not only defended but in her usual bitchy way. Smug, always using her clients to fit her agenda instead of being their lawyer. How she wasn't disbarred Open Season I don't know. She never was working for the good of her client and always for the good of Danielle Melnick and her opinions. I hated Jack going soft on her when she was arrested. She didn't deserve it. She disobeyed an order because Danielle didn't like it. She never stopped to consider there was a reason for it or doing her job making sure her client wasn't dangerous. Nope, that didn't fit with what Melnick wanted. That lead to someone getting killed. When Jack goes to tell her she's being arrested she acts like a bitch again at being arrested. I do love that we do get to see Jack telling her to shut up in another episode. But I'd been happier if she was killed in Open Season.

[Xeliou66]

16 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

See I had a hard time with her in that episode too. Because her client shot up City Hall. He was pissed about what happened to him as he should be. That terrible. That mistake that was ruining him. But then he went and shot up City Hall. The only one I think I liked her in was Survivor and maybe Aria which she wasn't the gigantic bitch she is in all other episodes she's in.  Defending that horrible rapist doctor she not only defended but in her usual bitchy way. Smug, always using her clients to fit her agenda instead of being their lawyer. How she wasn't disbarred Open Season I don't know. She never was working for the good of her client and always for the good of Danielle Melnick and her opinions. I hated Jack going soft on her when she was arrested. She didn't deserve it. She disobeyed an order because Danielle didn't like it. She never stopped to consider there was a reason for it or doing her job making sure her client wasn't dangerous. Nope, that didn't fit with what Melnick wanted. That lead to someone getting killed. When Jack goes to tell her she's being arrested she acts like a bitch again at being arrested. I do love that we do get to see Jack telling her to shut up in another episode. But I'd been happier if she was killed in Open Season.

About City Hall, her client was definitely guilty and didn’t really have much of a defense, but I’m just saying I thought Melnick made good points about government infringement on civil liberties and how it was concerning. 

Melnick was self serving and seemed to care more about herself and her agenda than anything, and she was incredibly self righteous and condescending. McCoy blowing up on her in America Inc was glorious “who gives a damn what you think anyway?!” Melnick should’ve been disbarred and possibly jailed after Open Season and I didn’t get why McCoy went to bat for her. 

[txhorns79]

I watched "Dignity," and I just wanted to yell at the screen throughout the episode.  I don't believe for a moment a New York City judge is going to let a defendant argue "justification" for murdering a late term abortion doctor.  I further don't believe the Judge would let in testimony from a random person about how they decided not to have an abortion despite receiving a fatal diagnosis for the fetus, or testimony that the doctor who was murdered was a monster after all (since there was no evidence the defendant had any idea about that prior to killing him.)  I also felt like the regular characters were all over the place in terms of their opinions and motivations, often acting completely unprofessionally.  

It was a very frustrating episode.   

[Xeliou66]

Dignity was horrid - it was stupid, offensive anti abortion propaganda. To base this story off of the murder of George Tiller and then to have the abortion doctor in this episode actually kill a live baby after a botched abortion, something which the real life victim Dr Tiller never did, was beyond offensive.

Also horrible were Bernard’s comments implying that rape victims giving birth was a good thing, that was right there with Serena feeling sympathy for the parents who let their kid be molested as the worst and most appalling thing ever done/said by a main character. 

The characters were all over the place in terms of opinions and behavior, and there were no pro choice arguments made, and no one really felt in character, the characterization was twisted around in order to fit the episodes agenda. 

I agree that the judge wouldn’t allow the testimony of the woman who decided not to have the abortion, it was extremely prejudicial and had no relevance to the case, that was ridiculous. I hated the message of it as well, like someone giving birth and the baby dying hours afterwards was somehow better than having an abortion. 

The pro choice abortion doctor who testified was like a cartoon character, and saying that there were “extremists on both sides” wasn’t accurate. 

There were two good moments in the episode - Cutter’s closing argument and McCoy refusing to offer a deal. Other than that, Dignity was complete dreck, probably the second worst episode in L&O history behind Aftershock, it’s one that I usually don’t watch when it comes on because it’s stupid, offensive, poorly written and it pisses me off.

[balmz]

here's a real thinker of a question, who is in your opinion, the single most evil perp or character in the entire show?

 

can't really think of one most evil character but the perps in prince of darkness come close

[stonehaven]

The creep in 'Bodies" easily...

[Xeliou66]

8 hours ago, balmz said:

here's a real thinker of a question, who is in your opinion, the single most evil perp or character in the entire show?

 

can't really think of one most evil character but the perps in prince of darkness come close

There are lots of good choices - Mark Bruner from Bodies was particularly evil, as was Leon Vorgitch from Deadlock, those 2 immediately come to mind. The Russian mobsters in Refuge were nasty as was the cartel in Prince of Darkness as you said. I’ll continue to think of more.

[GHScorpiosRule]

On 2/28/2020 at 8:58 PM, Xeliou66 said:

There are lots of good choices - Mark Bruner from Bodies was particularly evil, as was Leon Vorgitch from Deadlock, those 2 immediately come to mind. The Russian mobsters in Refuge were nasty as was the cartel in Prince of Darkness as you said. I’ll continue to think of more.

Jacob Lowenstein from "Indifference" TOPS the list. Those Home Invaders that also ended up murdering Alex, even though I wasn't a fan of hers, she didn't deserve that. Ned Loomis from "Kiss the Girls and Make them Die"; Janet Ralston: "Happily Ever After"; Hell; practically each killer from season one, at the rate I'm reviewing.

Season Two also had some; 

"Wages of Love: "We were married for Twenty-five yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeears!"

"Aria"

"God Bless the Child"

"Misconception"

"In Memory of"

"Out of Control"

"Renunication"

"Heaven"

"Blood Is Thicker"

I don't care how young he was; was evil: kid in "Trust"

"Vengeance"

"Cradle to the Grave"

"The Fertile Fields"

"Intolerance"

It's going to take a while to come up with a list for the remaining 18 seasons!

 

Edited March 2, 2020 by GHScorpiosRule

[balmz]

8 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Jacob Lowenstein from "Indifference" TOPS the list. Those Home Invaders that also ended up murdering Alex, even though I wasn't a fan of hers, she didn't deserve that. Ned Loomis from "Kiss the Girls and Make them Die; Janet Ralston: "Happily Ever After"; Hell; practically each killer from season one, at the rate I'm reviewing.

Season Two also had some; 

"Wages of Love: "We were married for Twenty-five yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeears!"

"Aria"

"God Bless the Child"

"Misconception"

"In Memory of"

"Out of Control"

"Renunication"

"Heaven"

"Blood Is Thicker"

I don't care how young he was; was evil: kid in "Trust"

"Vengeance"

"Cradle to the Grave"

"The Fertile Fields"

"Intolerance"

It's going to take a while to come up with a list for the remaining 18 seasons!

 

interesting list but i was asking more for the single most evil perp out of every perp in the show

[GHScorpiosRule]

25 minutes ago, balmz said:

interesting list but i was asking more for the single most evil perp out of every perp in the show

As far as I'm concerned, that's my opinion. These are the most evil to me, because it depends on the crime. But if you're looking for JUST ONE, I can't answer that. Because there isn't just one who was the most evil.

[wknt3]

On 2/28/2020 at 8:58 PM, Xeliou66 said:

There are lots of good choices - Mark Bruner from Bodies was particularly evil, as was Leon Vorgitch from Deadlock, those 2 immediately come to mind. The Russian mobsters in Refuge were nasty as was the cartel in Prince of Darkness as you said. I’ll continue to think of more.

 

5 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Jacob Lowenstein from "Indifference" TOPS the list. Those Home Invaders that also ended up murdering Alex, even though I wasn't a fan of hers, she didn't deserve that. Ned Loomis from "Kiss the Girls and Make them Die"; Janet Ralston: "Happily Ever After"

 

I agree with these, I would also add Marcus Woll from "Boy Gone Astray" and "For the Defense" as a strong contender from the later seasons.

[WendyCR72]

7 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

"Wages of Love: "We were married for Twenty-five yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeears!"

You had to post that, didn't you? Now I will have that whiny voice in my head all night! Thanks a bunch.  😛

[GHScorpiosRule]

56 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

You had to post that, didn't you? Now I will have that whiny voice in my head all night! Thanks a bunch.  😛

I do what I can!😆😆

[Xeliou66]

The serial killer from Vengeance, Albert Lawrence Cheney, was a nasty sadistic piece of shit, he comes to mind as an evil villain, and yeah Jacob Lowenstein was evil. Good call on Marcus Woll as well, he was a pure sociopath. 

Any episode dealing with the mob or the cartel is going to have some nasty villains.

Also, the religious fanatic we killer in Trophy, Simon Brooks, comes to mind, he was creepy and evil. 

[balmz]

here's probably the most evil non murderer 

the parents from smoked

in one way i would argue that what the parents did to the kid was more evil then what the pedophile himself did 

 

what do you think, was what the parents did more evil then what the perp did?

[wknt3]

20 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Any episode dealing with the mob or the cartel is going to have some nasty villains.

Depends on the nationality a bit. There were quite a few mafia episodes where the perps were pretty much run of the mill murderers. Some even had a certain twisted sense of morality. Not nearly as bad as say the little girl from "Killerz". Your Latino drug cartels were off the charts nasty. And the Russian mob? Capital E Evil...

[Xeliou66]

45 minutes ago, wknt3 said:

Depends on the nationality a bit. There were quite a few mafia episodes where the perps were pretty much run of the mill murderers. Some even had a certain twisted sense of morality. Not nearly as bad as say the little girl from "Killerz". Your Latino drug cartels were off the charts nasty. And the Russian mob? Capital E Evil...

I just find all mobsters to be scum. I liked when Branch said as much, in Payback I think it was, when he said that they get romanticized but they were nothing but heartless scum. 

I’ve got another - Peter Williams and Laura Kendrick from Fools For Love, they were both despicable, sick, fucked up murderers and rapists. That was one of the most disturbing, fucked up episodes in L&O history.

[Xeliou66]

On 3/3/2020 at 5:28 PM, balmz said:

here's probably the most evil non murderer 

the parents from smoked

in one way i would argue that what the parents did to the kid was more evil then what the pedophile himself did 

 

what do you think, was what the parents did more evil then what the perp did?

Yes those parents betrayed their kid in the worst way possible. Fuck those parents and Serena feeling sympathetic for them at the end was sickening.

One character that comes to mind who wasn’t the main villain of the episode was the prison gang leader from The Brotherhood, he was menacing.

[Xeliou66]

Another pick for evil perps - the cops from DWB. They were despicable trash who abused their power in the worst way, murdering an innocent man in a brutal way for no reason other than that they were bigoted thugs who got off on having unlimited power and no one reigned them in. They were evil and I’m glad that they were all put away for good, 2 of them receiving a death sentence. Chilling episode.

[WendyCR72]

"Smoke" just ended. It never gets to the point where I DON'T want to smack Serena for feeling sorry for the pieces of crap that let a pedophile molest their son. So damned gross.

[Spartan Girl]

13 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

"Smoke" just ended. It never gets to the point where I DON'T want to smack Serena for feeling sorry for the pieces of crap that let a pedophile molest their son. So damned gross.

I don't get why she STILL felt sorry for them even when they uncovered that they planned the whole thing from the get go.

I will always love Arthur for how he tuned out her blathering and instead complimented Jack's accurate assessment: "Monstrous indifference...I like that."

[shapeshifter]

45 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

I don't get why she STILL felt sorry for them even when they uncovered that they planned the whole thing from the get go.

I will always love Arthur for how he tuned out her blathering and instead complimented Jack's accurate assessment: "Monstrous indifference...I like that."

I guess Serena’s line was there because the episode was based on the Michael Jackson case, in which he was acquitted, and after which many people still refused to believe he was guilty. So her line represents real opinions, but we do end with the satisfying  "Monstrous indifference...I like that" line and a guilty verdict. 

[Xeliou66]

Yeah I know Serena still feeling sympathy for those parents at the end after it was revealed they set up their kid to be molested was sickening, with her saying that they did this for their sick son and now he would have to grow up without them, I loved how McCoy bluntly replied “he’s better off”. How anyone could feel bad for parents who sold their kid to a pedophile is beyond me. 

[andromeda331]

10 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah I know Serena still feeling sympathy for those parents at the end after it was revealed they set up their kid to be molested was sickening, with her saying that they did this for their sick son and now he would have to grow up without them, I loved how McCoy bluntly replied “he’s better off”. How anyone could feel bad for parents who sold their kid to a pedophile is beyond me. 

Beyond me too. They sold their son to be molested for money. There is no excuse for that. McCoy was right the baby was better off without them. Both boys were better off without them. I feel sorry for both boys. The older one when he realized what his parents did. The younger one because one day he is going to find out what his parents did supposedly "for" him. How anyone could listen to all that and come out feeling sorry for the parents? 

[Xeliou66]

I saw Compassion today, it’s a good episode but I thought McCoy went too easy on the doctor at the end, I thought she knew right from wrong and committed a premeditated murder, she should’ve gone to prison and not to a psych facility where she would probably get out soon. I do believe that her work with dying children had taken a major toll on her and she wouldn’t have killed if she hadn’t been so affected by her work, but she still belonged in prison and McCoy went easy on her, McCoy usually went much harder after people who killed for revenge. I liked Arthur’s line at the end that he shouldn’t make it a habit, and that “sometimes the good you do doesn’t do you any good”. 

I laughed when after Serena mentioned getting gift cards to psychics on her birthday, McCoy said “that doesn’t say much for your friends”. Also there are some good Briscoe lines, I love his one liner about hiring the victim to talk to himself. 

[Xeliou66]

I’m watching season 3 today, these early seasons have really good episodes, and I love the lineup of characters as well. 

I watched Promises to Keep, a really good episode, I have to say I was unsure whether I thought Judge Quinn was right or not in sending Garrett to prison instead of to a mental facility, I’m unsure which he belonged in, he was manipulated by the shrink but he did strangle someone and then went a long way to cover it up. I really liked the investigation by Briscoe and Logan to get to the bottom of the case, it was funny seeing Briscoe play the “bad cop” in the interrogation room while Logan played the “good cop”, when actually Briscoe was laid back and Logan was hot tempered. Cragen got a nice role in the episode as well. 

I have to say Olivet doesn’t look great in hindsight with how it was later revealed that she slept with a patient, a detective who lost his partner (possibly Logan), given how Olivet so adamantly condemned sex between therapist and patient in this episode, she was the main one calling for them to prosecute the therapist, as yet at some point she wound up sleeping with a patient as well, that doesn’t make Olivet look very good.

[txhorns79]

19 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I have to say Olivet doesn’t look great in hindsight with how it was later revealed that she slept with a patient, a detective who lost his partner (possibly Logan), given how Olivet so adamantly condemned sex between therapist and patient in this episode, she was the main one calling for them to prosecute the therapist, as yet at some point she wound up sleeping with a patient as well, that doesn’t make Olivet look very good.

I'll say that while I agree that Olivet doesn't look great in hindsight, I believe she claims she did end the patient/therapist relationship before sleeping with her former patient.  This is as opposed to this therapist, who manipulated her patient into sleeping with her as part of her normal process. 

[Xeliou66]

31 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I'll say that while I agree that Olivet doesn't look great in hindsight, I believe she claims she did end the patient/therapist relationship before sleeping with her former patient.  This is as opposed to this therapist, who manipulated her patient into sleeping with her as part of her normal process. 

I’m pretty sure Olivet said she stopped seeing the detective she was sleeping with as a patient shortly after they began their affair, I’m pretty sure that’s what she said in Betrayal, so technically she did sleep with a patient. But yes the situations were totally different, but it still doesn’t make Olivet look great knowing that she slept with a patient after she strongly condemned therapist/patient relationships in this episode. 

[WendyCR72]

Not to defend Olivet's ethical issues here, but to be fair, she and Logan did have a connection as coworkers and friends before Max died. (As I am pretty certain it was Logan the dialogue was intimating!)

Yes, she counseled Mike and that probably goes under the "therapist" label. But at the same time, she was his friend, and I think that is where the lines become blurred and things get a lot more gray - as opposed to Diane with her patient. They had no history except as therapist/patient before she knowingly seduced him and messed with him enough that he killed his fiancé.

[Xeliou66]

4 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Not to defend Olivet's ethical issues here, but to be fair, she and Logan did have a connection as coworkers and friends before Max died. (As I am pretty certain it was Logan the dialogue was intimating!)

Yes, she counseled Mike and that probably goes under the "therapist" label. But at the same time, she was his friend, and I think that is where the lines become blurred and things get a lot more gray - as opposed to Diane with her patient. They had no history except as therapist/patient before she knowingly seduced him and messed with him enough that he killed his fiancé.

I’m not sure if Olivet and Logan knew each other well before Greevey’s murder. Olivet first appeared in the first episode of season 2 and I don’t recall anything being said about Logan and Olivet knowing each other well before she counseled him after Greevey’s murder. 

There is no comparison between Olivet sleeping with a detective and Diane sleeping with Garrett, because Diane was manipulating Garrett and controlling him and got him to kill his girlfriend. I’m just saying it doesn’t make Olivet look great knowing that she slept with a patient despite condemning patient/therapist sex, even calling it abuse. I like Olivet overall (not as much as I like Skoda) but she annoyed me a few times and I think she looks somewhat hypocritical in this episode.

[andromeda331]

15 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I’m not sure if Olivet and Logan knew each other well before Greevey’s murder. Olivet first appeared in the first episode of season 2 and I don’t recall anything being said about Logan and Olivet knowing each other well before she counseled him after Greevey’s murder. 

There is no comparison between Olivet sleeping with a detective and Diane sleeping with Garrett, because Diane was manipulating Garrett and controlling him and got him to kill his girlfriend. I’m just saying it doesn’t make Olivet look great knowing that she slept with a patient despite condemning patient/therapist sex, even calling it abuse. I like Olivet overall (not as much as I like Skoda) but she annoyed me a few times and I think she looks somewhat hypocritical in this episode.

Same here. I liked her but some episodes she annoyed me. Specifically Killerz where she idiotically acts like punishing the killer girl is the worse thing that could happen.

[Xeliou66]

3 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Same here. I liked her but some episodes she annoyed me. Specifically Killerz where she idiotically acts like punishing the killer girl is the worse thing that could happen.

Killerz was the first episode to come to mind when I said Olivet annoyed me sometimes, Olivet really irritated me in that episode, Skoda was spot on, she was way too soft. Most of the time I liked Olivet though, her scenes added to the show, I prefer Skoda but I like Olivet as well.

[ML89]

On 3/29/2020 at 7:49 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I’m watching season 3 today, these early seasons have really good episodes, and I love the lineup of characters as well. 

I watched Promises to Keep, a really good episode, I have to say I was unsure whether I thought Judge Quinn was right or not in sending Garrett to prison instead of to a mental facility, I’m unsure which he belonged in, he was manipulated by the shrink but he did strangle someone and then went a long way to cover it up. I really liked the investigation by Briscoe and Logan to get to the bottom of the case, it was funny seeing Briscoe play the “bad cop” in the interrogation room while Logan played the “good cop”, when actually Briscoe was laid back and Logan was hot tempered. Cragen got a nice role in the episode as well. 

I have to say Olivet doesn’t look great in hindsight with how it was later revealed that she slept with a patient, a detective who lost his partner (possibly Logan), given how Olivet so adamantly condemned sex between therapist and patient in this episode, she was the main one calling for them to prosecute the therapist, as yet at some point she wound up sleeping with a patient as well, that doesn’t make Olivet look very good.

I love the investigation in this one, especially when they quiz the patrol cop to get to the “keys, genius!” The bar crawl is fun too. Lennie knows every bar in Manhattan. Also love Lennie kicking the table - shades of Prince of the City. 
 

I hate that later ep with the implication that Olivet and Logan had an affair precisely because of this episode. Noth and McCormick did play a couple in a little movie called “Burnzy’s Last Call,” from 1995.

 

 

 

[Xeliou66]

22 minutes ago, ML89 said:

I love the investigation in this one, especially when they quiz the patrol cop to get to the “keys, genius!” The bar crawl is fun too. Lennie knows every bar in Manhattan. Also love Lennie kicking the table - shades of Prince of the City. 
 

I hate that later ep with the implication that Olivet and Logan had an affair precisely because of this episode. Noth and McCormick did play a couple in a little movie called “Burnzy’s Last Call,” from 1995.

 

 

 

Yeah I love the investigation in this one as well - they zeroed in on the boyfriend early on but with the therapist manipulating everything it made for a good investigation. I liked Briscoe and Logan doing the “bad cop, good cop” routine and it amused me since their personalities were the opposite of the roles they played, with Briscoe being the laid back one and Logan being the hot head, and I liked Cragen getting more scenes as well, and I loved Profaci’s “Donny gets the toaster oven” line. 

I didn’t care for the revelation that Olivet slept with a patient either, it did nothing but make her look bad, especially given what she said in this episode. 

Did you think Quinn did the right thing sending the boyfriend to prison? I thought he might have, yes he was being manipulated but I believe he knew right from wrong when he killed his girlfriend just so he could be with his therapist and get the diary back. 

[Xeliou66]

I saw Entitled, part 2 of the crossover with SVU, and I saw part 1 (the SVU episode) over the weekend, and I think this crossover was an overly convoluted mess. While I really liked seeing all of the characters interact and I wish they had done another full blown crossover, this storyline was just incredibly convoluted. It was disappointing how there wasn’t much closure regarding the serial killer whose crimes were introduced in the episode Mayhem in season 4, that was a compelling case and dedicating the whole 2 hours to solving that case would’ve made for a good episode, but instead that case got lost in the shuffle and while they caught the guy it was unclear what would happen with the case and whether he would be convicted, instead the case came to focus on the Mulroney family. 

Judge McNeil was extremely biased towards the Mulroney’s, he was a decent judge in the other episodes he was in IMO but he was extremely biased in this one. It was irritating but realistic how the Mulroney’s seemed to get special treatment.

I did really like seeing all of the characters interact, Briscoe and Munch together were always good, it was nice to see Cragen and Van Buren appear together, and even seeing Cragen with the DA’s (did anyone else notice how Cragen called Schiff “Adam”? I thought that was interesting given that they never had many scenes together for him to use his first name). 

The storyline though was so complicated that it felt like even 2 hours wasn’t enough to wrap it all up. It wasn’t a bad episode (almost no L&O episodes are bad) but it wasn’t their best. I do wish they had crossedover again. 

[Xeliou66]

Another pick for evil villain - Marty Winston from By Perjury. He was a pure sociopath who killed multiple people and framed one of his clients for one of his murders, all to benefit his case so he could make a profit and advance his career, and then he almost killed Cutter in the restroom at the end of the episode. That guy was pure evil. 

[balmz]

sorry if this is in poor taste but since i got laid off because of the damn coronavirus and might be actually sick myself...

 

anyone else remember the episodes flight and to a degree fluency and carrier which involved a possible outbreak of a disease 

 

what is happening irl now is a good example of what could have happened in flight, that company got off way too easy, i hope the mother did win her lawsuit or mccoy did what casey did in loophole and told the company that he would drop charges if they gave an acceptable settlement to the mother of the boy who was killed

 

were there any other episodes that dealt with outbreaks or similar things?

[Xeliou66]

4 hours ago, balmz said:

sorry if this is in poor taste but since i got laid off because of the damn coronavirus and might be actually sick myself...

 

anyone else remember the episodes flight and to a degree fluency and carrier which involved a possible outbreak of a disease 

 

what is happening irl now is a good example of what could have happened in flight, that company got off way too easy, i hope the mother did win her lawsuit or mccoy did what casey did in loophole and told the company that he would drop charges if they gave an acceptable settlement to the mother of the boy who was killed

 

were there any other episodes that dealt with outbreaks or similar things?

Patient Zero in season 14 was about an outbreak of SARS. That episode had a downer ending as well with the doctor who infected his mistresses son with the virus and caused the outbreak getting acquitted because of his bitch of a wife standing by him. 

Flight had a downer ending also, I hope the mother won her lawsuit against the company as well but it was implied it would be difficult for her to do so, I liked McCoy’ final line to Schiff about having the Louis Armstrong records handy, since earlier in the episode Schiff had said when he was down he had scotch and listened to Louis Armstrong. 

The only episodes I call recall dealing with outbreaks are Patient Zero, Fluency, Flight and Carrier. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Patient Zero in season 14 was about an outbreak of SARS. That episode had a downer ending as well with the doctor who infected his mistresses son with the virus and caused the outbreak getting acquitted because of his bitch of a wife standing by him. 

I’m pretty sure he infected his own son. He didn’t have any children with his mistress.

[Xeliou66]

15 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I’m pretty sure he infected his own son. He didn’t have any children with his mistress.

Are you confusing the episodes? The guy in Flight infected his own son, the guy in Patient Zero infected his the son of his mistress I’m pretty sure, I don’t think he was the father of the kid.

[balmz]

from tv tropes mentioning a number of legal issues with patient zero 

 

In "Patient Zero," a man is charged with killing his mistress's child (dosing them with stolen SARS virus that she survived). His wife testifies that she was with him at the time, but breaks down on the stand and changes her story a couple of times. Outside the courtroom, she admits that she was deliberately playing the jury, and the jury returns a not guilty verdict because they can't be sure what the truth is. McCoy and Southerlyn watch the husband and wife walk out of court hand-in-hand, and are apparently so bewildered by their defeat that they completely forget they have an iron-clad case for perjury against the wife. Not to mention completely ignoring the handful of felonies the husband committed in getting the SARS virus to begin with.