Last Man Standing - General Discussion

[Katy M]

IMO, it was a good show, but it wasn't great.  I think with Kristen and Mandy both being married and off on their own and Eve going to the Air Force Academy, this was probably good place to end it, though I do agree with others that it would have been nice if they had had an actual "final" episode.  Maybe Kristen pregnant again, Kyle and Mandy moving into their new house, a big designer signing Mandy on.  I'm not sure what they would do for Eve, because we already know what she's doing.  Maybe something happen with the store or Mike and Vanessa move somewhere also.

[yeswedo]

Hey folks, real world politics are not allowed at PTV so unless it was explicitly discussed on the show please avoid. That includes discussion about why specific political events may or may not have triggered the show's cancellation.

This is a tough line to draw at times. I've hidden a few posts and if you have questions please PM me. Thanks!

[jumper sage]

On 5/13/2017 at 8:58 PM, Skyfall said:

1- Tim's contract keeps growing year over year and as shows age the network takes on more of the price tag. With this not beIN gowned by ABC that meant they weren't getting the backend of syndication money.

2- Not owned by ABC and the recent trend has been vertical synergy for all the broadcasts

3- it's just creatively ran out of juice.

(All of the above apply to 2BG as well)

4- It seems ABC is either dropping the Friday comedy block (OUAT maybe since lower ratings are acceptable on Friday?) or they are breaking up the Tuesday block for the two Marvel shows). My vote is on the former as they'll just slot in speechless or blackish into Tuesday's and have a new comedy premiere on Wednesday.

To add to this list - The advertisers were not happy with the target audience and the actual age of the audience.  They wanted the 18 - 49 with an actual age of 18 - 39 and the audience being 50+.

The ensemble cast was huge and everyone wants a raise for the new contract.  Jay Leno was seriously miscast and you know he probably cost a bundle.

[readster]

1 hour ago, jumper sage said:

To add to this list - The advertisers were not happy with the target audience and the actual age of the audience.  They wanted the 18 - 49 with an actual age of 18 - 39 and the audience being 50+.

The ensemble cast was huge and everyone wants a raise for the new contract.  Jay Leno was seriously miscast and you know he probably cost a bundle.

Right on all accounts. When it comes down to it, ABC just saw it too much money to be spent and not reaching where they want it to be or where it should be. The thing was LMS thought they would get another season while Dr. Ken knew it could go either way so they they gave it an ending, while still leaving things open if they did get a renewal. The show has lost so much steam and appeal, it's time for it to end, but like many have said, especially me. The final episode was completely horrible. 

[Mabinogia]

On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 1:57 PM, jumper sage said:

Jay Leno was seriously miscast and you know he probably cost a bundle.

I never understood the reasoning behind hiring him for the show. Like you said, he couldn't have been cheap, so what was the point? Is he really able to bring in a lot of viewers? Is he still relevant enough to bring people to watch? Personally, he drove me away. It was total stunt casting and I was too aware that I was watching Jay Leno not whoever his character was meant to be.

[Katy M]

29 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I never understood the reasoning behind hiring him for the show. Like you said, he couldn't have been cheap, so what was the point? Is he really able to bring in a lot of viewers? Is he still relevant enough to bring people to watch? Personally, he drove me away. It was total stunt casting and I was too aware that I was watching Jay Leno not whoever his character was meant to be.

I think they should have just had had him in the one episode and left it at that.

[Mabinogia]

I now wonder if they were hoping to move the show more towards Outdoor Man. They got Chuck working there, even Kris was working at the Grille, then they bring on Jay Leno and put him at the store. They basically eliminated Ryan and Boyd from the show. Perhaps they were hoping to move away from the family and it just didn't really ever happen. Otherwise, it was stupid to bring in on after that first ep.

[readster]

3 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I now wonder if they were hoping to move the show more towards Outdoor Man. They got Chuck working there, even Kris was working at the Grille, then they bring on Jay Leno and put him at the store. They basically eliminated Ryan and Boyd from the show. Perhaps they were hoping to move away from the family and it just didn't really ever happen. Otherwise, it was stupid to bring in on after that first ep.

You do have to wonder. They were spending more time at Outdoor man and moving things closer to that. However, as many said, I never saw the point of Jay Leno's character outside his original appearance. He was all of a sudden working for Outdoor Man and left his garage alone. When his character was pretty much said to be retired and just did the work to keep himself busy. Either way, Jay's time of bringing in the viewers is long over. Even after the entire situation between him and Conan O'brian and the Tonight Show. It was a quick ratings bump until Jimmy Falone took over as host. However, NBC and Jay pretty much don't really work together now and of course Jay pretty much retired with his salary since he never spent it. However, back to the show, interesting what Tim Allen said about ABC after 6 years calling home basically just pulled the plug on everything. I think at this point in his career, Allen and other actors do know how Hollywood works if you have been in the business long enough. It isn't like he has to worry about being out of Disney's good graces right now, but there is a difference between a parent company's decisions and the main company's decision. As pointed out, ABC was not getting the moneys from syndication and the show had lost viewers as it had been running out of steam for a while. Plus, with the reduction of cast from Chuck's wife, Carol, major reduction of Ryan and Boyd, Muffin and yes, even Ed's 4th wife. The show was looking to save money and ABC decided, they weren't getting the return on their investment, so away it went. 

[jumper sage]

Jay's character was so hard to watch.  Tim's and Eve's characters were also horrible to the point I would just change the channel.  Mike Baxter would never cease to call a guy (Kyle, Ryan) girl names or insinuate they didn't have balls.  I found it so offensive!  How this show stayed on for 6 years is a wonder to me not the cancellation. 

[readster]

8 hours ago, jumper sage said:

Jay's character was so hard to watch.  Tim's and Eve's characters were also horrible to the point I would just change the channel.  Mike Baxter would never cease to call a guy (Kyle, Ryan) girl names or insinuate they didn't have balls.  I found it so offensive!  How this show stayed on for 6 years is a wonder to me not the cancellation. 

What's worse is Mike got more and more bitter about things. I mean in season 1-3 he loved Halloween or Christmas. This past year, he was all: "I hate holidays, get off my damn lawn." My problem with Eve is they tried to shove the entire tomboy down our throats in the last couple of years. I mean, dear God, her wanting to play "men" sports. Her wanting to quite soccer only to then turn around and act like it was the best thing on Earth. Season 2 Eve was acting like the jealous big sister to Boyd. I mean, locking him in boxes, putting him down the basement, ect. The point was that Boyd was all of a sudden getting the attention she use to have? She was 15 years old! Then they had to have it where guys wanted her to be more "girlfriendish" by taking Eve to dances, wanted her to dress up a little bit more. She hated it like it was the worse thing in the world. Plus they had the guys portrayed as big idiots. Or how about season 4 boyfriend we NEVER saw until the break up episode. He was talked about and even her going to his parents for almost 5 episodes. Then he shows up and then *poof* gone. They made Vanessa so stupid to a point, I'm surprise she could even tie her shoes. 

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, readster said:

Season 2 Eve was acting like the jealous big sister to Boyd. I mean, locking him in boxes, putting him down the basement, ect.

I don't remember the box, but I do remember the basement.  I don't think that was so much about jealousy as she was just annoyed that she had to take care of him, even though she isn't the one who decided to have a child.  I'm not defending her behavior. Not even a little.  But, I do think her motivation is different than what you're making it out to be.  And, I guess I can see her a point a little, but she shouldn't have taken it out on Boyd, and she should have just sucked it up, because Mike was right in that families help each other out.  OTOH, Kristen could have floated her a couple of bucks for babysitting.

[readster]

5 hours ago, Katy M said:

I don't remember the box, but I do remember the basement.  I don't think that was so much about jealousy as she was just annoyed that she had to take care of him, even though she isn't the one who decided to have a child.  I'm not defending her behavior. Not even a little.  But, I do think her motivation is different than what you're making it out to be.  And, I guess I can see her a point a little, but she shouldn't have taken it out on Boyd, and she should have just sucked it up, because Mike was right in that families help each other out.  OTOH, Kristen could have floated her a couple of bucks for babysitting.

True, but yeah, Season 2 Eve was: "Dammit! I hate Boyd!" "Dammit! I want to be a boy!" Followed by Ryan does something completely stupid and really mean, but Vanessa and Kristin have to agree with him. 

[jumper sage]

6 hours ago, readster said:

True, but yeah, Season 2 Eve was: "Dammit! I hate Boyd!" "Dammit! I want to be a boy!" Followed by Ryan does something completely stupid and really mean, but Vanessa and Kristin have to agree with him. 

Thankfully I have not caught more than a few of the episodes and that is when I was too lazy to look for the remote.  Whether she was 15 or not, she was still his aunt and if she did act like the bold portion she should not have been ALLOWED TO WATCH BOYD.  She was clearly too immature and no kid deserves verbal abuse.

The second bold portion is exactly my point about the character of Eve.  Why could she not be a strong girl/woman, good at athletics and interested in military service AND still be a girl??????????????????  This is misogyny (dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women) at it's best.

[Katy M]

7 hours ago, jumper sage said:

Thankfully I have not caught more than a few of the episodes and that is when I was too lazy to look for the remote.  Whether she was 15 or not, she was still his aunt and if she did act like the bold portion she should not have been ALLOWED TO WATCH BOYD.  She was clearly too immature and no kid deserves verbal abuse.

I don't think she ever said "I hate Boyd."  And, honestly, I don't remember her ever acting like she hated, or even disliked Boyd.  The episode where she locked him in the basement, she was busy and didn't want to babysit.  That's not an excuse, but she didn't do it because she didn't like him.

7 hours ago, jumper sage said:

The second bold portion is exactly my point about the character of Eve.  Why could she not be a strong girl/woman, good at athletics and interested in military service AND still be a girl??????????????????  

She was still a girl.  It's not like she was transgender or anything.  She wasn't even butch.  She had that long hair.  she liked boys.  She just liked sports and the military and wasn't all that into clothes and make up.  Nothing wrong with that.

[jumper sage]

34 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't think she ever said "I hate Boyd."  And, honestly, I don't remember her ever acting like she hated, or even disliked Boyd.  The episode where she locked him in the basement, she was busy and didn't want to babysit.  That's not an excuse, but she didn't do it because she didn't like him.

She was still a girl.  It's not like she was transgender or anything.  She wasn't even butch.  She had that long hair.  she liked boys.  She just liked sports and the military and wasn't all that into clothes and make up.  Nothing wrong with that.

Part 1 - I have not seen that episodes so I took the quote from another poster.  I agree with you but I will stand by the statement she should not have been forced to babysit if she could not do it in a mature fashion.

Part 2 - I have seen many episodes where the character, to fit in with her father's views, slings homophobic slurs and takes on the persona of a white, privileged male just to endear herself to her father.  She is rewarded by being her father's favorite.  

[readster]

Both hit the points exactly. Yes, she had long hair, dressed like a girl and so forth, but it was pushed way to hard on her wanting to be more of a boy and even Mike saying: "What did you do to my boy." at one point when she was dressed up by Mandy in one episode. Then add in the prom episode where Mandy said: "Look, I made a girl." Followed by the end of season 2 when she went to the dance, looked absolutely beautiful and even her reaction of: "Mom, I'm not sure I can do this, I don't have big boobs, I don't have a whale tale (g string look)" ect. That should have come off more of a girl not ready for high school and expecting to fit in like the other girls. However, then they went way too far with Eve's view on what sports should be, or going completely like Mike's attitude and views on the world. Because even critics said: "They made her into a mini-Mike and that's not really a good thing." They could have had Eve take a lot of Mike's views, but still been her own character. Because the conflict they wanted to put Eve with Mandy and Kris and Vanessa at times were too much. Which even made Vanessa's character more and more air headed and missing her spine when it came to several episodes. However, as I have said, her conversation with Eve when she finally got over herself not getting into Westpoint and joining the Airforce was one of the best written and acted scenes between them in the history of the show. 

  As for Boyd they put it that Eve did not like babysitting her nephew and it came from being annoyed to almost looking hateful at times. That could have been the way they both wrote and acted the scenes. But Eve could have said: "Kristin, I love Boyd, but I don't want to do this, I'm not your babysitter when you want. I am 15 and I'm still in school and have a life." Instead it came off as looking pretty mean.

[jumper sage]

@readster - Excellent post!

[readster]

Thanks, I mean I agree on all points and while they didn't have the characters say exact words of: "I hate you, you are a moron, ect." That's how it came off as. They had some very WTF episodes this season and some of the ones that stand out to me besides the Little Free Library episode where Eve paint bombed Chuck to find out who was the mysterious writer that Vanessa wanted to know (still comes off as odd). The church episode was just super odd. First of all, Vanessa was written like it was 1963 and wanting her two grown daughters, who can make their own decisions, have their own cards, ect. Can decide if they want to go to church themselves. Also, never made sense since Kyle is very dedicated to his church, why Mandy wouldn't go with him. Then you add in Ryan who is Mr. Anti-everything because of how a horrible privileged life he had until he knocked up his girlfriend. Constantly rips at organized religion is not shown or seen and Kristin who was barely in the episode just magically shows up in the last 4 minutes of the episode with Boyd. Then add in Mike magically turned their pastor's sermons to a comedy piece who was dry and out himself. Made a complete:"What was the point of this episode."

  Then add in Mike's biggest fan who won the essay contest and has been interpreting Mike's vlogs as anti-government was completely disturbing. First of all, the way it was written, the essay contest sounded like it was people in high school or college, not for someone close to Mike's age. Second of all, Mike could have called the police on the guy, because he was coming off as a guy about to snap and yet Ed was like: "Oh, just let him be." The episode was apparently trying to have it where Mike was going to get a wake up call for his straw man, short sighted POV attitude that had been in the character since season 2. Instead, they had it come off as a bad joke where Mike tricked the guy into thinking not only what he was saying was true and all anti-government, but he was some secret HYDRA commander. The episode couldn't end fast enough. I'm not even going to talk about the season premiere with the Bear. The show was so out of steam and having major WTF episodes, why is everyone shocked it was cancelled? 

[4leafclover]

Yes, there are people who are shocked it was canceled.  People who enjoyed it for the family comedy it was.  And for the record, I watched every episode and I cannot recall when Eve said she hated Boyd and that she hated being a girl.   Can you tell me which episodes those quotes came from?  She never showed symptoms of "misogyny" or "white, privileged male" either.  Good grief.

[Mabinogia]

She never said either. lol She was annoyed with Boyd once because he was bothering her when she told him to leave her along she was studying. She's never hated being a girl. She went through about an episode of the typical tom boy on a sitcom thing where her more fashionable sister pretties her up and says "I made a girl" but Eve has never struck me as wanting to be a boy. She's a girl who likes the military and sports, but it is pretty misogynistic to say that means she doesn't want to be a girl. It just means she likes things that are traditionally reserved for only boys in our misogynistic society.

I found Eve the most interesting of the daughters because she was the least stereotypical. Mandy was the dumb one who liked fashion and boys and used her body to get what she wants which UGH! I still don't know how Mike let her out of the house that ep when she wore the skin tight dress to see her professor to get an A on her paper. The fuck!??! Who raised her? And Kristin the poor single teen mom who didn't get an education and works hard to make ends meet (while living in Mommy and Daddy's extremely nice house for free!). Eve was a tomboy who, from where I was watching, liked being a girl. She wore girl clothes, makeup, had long hair, dated, all the typical girl stuff only she also liked paintball and guns and sports. Though I think it was more about liking winning than liking those particular things. And yeah, she liked impressing her father. And he called her his son a few times as a joke.

Eve, Muffin and Chuck are the ones I will miss. The rest I really couldn't care less about never seeing again.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Mabinogia

[readster]

I'll miss Muffin and Chuck too.

[4leafclover]

When I see quotation marks around a statement, I just assume that is being quoted verbatim.  If it is just your perspective or your opinion, quotation marks are inappropriate.  

[readster]

42 minutes ago, 4leafclover said:

When I see quotation marks around a statement, I just assume that is being quoted verbatim.  If it is just your perspective or your opinion, quotation marks are inappropriate.  

Right, it's how it came off, not exact words. As you can tell, not my favorite pieces of the character. I do love Eve but when they did this with her character like with Mandy's: "I'm so air headed I see dust in the wind." It goes too far, not like with Kristin or Ryan where they constantly pushed them to be so unlikable. 

[luvmylabs]

CMT has just picked up Last Man Standing for a new season.  I love the show, so I'm happy.

[luvmylabs]

CMT has announced it will pick up LMS for a new season.

[Katy M]

34 minutes ago, luvmylabs said:

CMT has just picked up Last Man Standing for a new season.  I love the show, so I'm happy.

I don't think I get CMT, but good for them.

[readster]

You know, after what happened with Nashville. I wonder how this will work out for LMS. I don't get CMT. So, we'll see. 

[ae2]

19 minutes ago, readster said:

You know, after what happened with Nashville. I wonder how this will work out for LMS. I don't get CMT. So, we'll see. 

How was Nashville after CMT picked it up? (I've never watched it and have no interest, just curious about the quality of their shows.)

I'm really interested to see if CMT will fix some of the glaring problems Last Man Standing had. 

[FormerMod-a1]

I don't see anything that says it's definite., only "May", or "In talks with" like this article from Deadline.

‘Last Man Standing’: CMT Explores Pickup Of Tim Allen Sitcom Post-Cancellation

[jumper sage]

I never watched the show when it was on but now with all the hullabaloo I will catch a snippet or two in reruns.  I literally can't stand more than 5 minutes with the show for Tim Allen is always saying political crap.  I was flipping through the channels and saw a clip where Mike Baxter was making fun of Obama and his visit to Russia and then not doing a darn thing about Crimea.............

I would love to hear him try to defend what the hell is going on now.

[ae2]

2 hours ago, jumper sage said:

I never watched the show when it was on but now with all the hullabaloo I will catch a snippet or two in reruns.  I literally can't stand more than 5 minutes with the show for Tim Allen is always saying political crap.  I was flipping through the channels and saw a clip where Mike Baxter was making fun of Obama and his visit to Russia and then not doing a darn thing about Crimea.............

I would love to hear him try to defend what the hell is going on now.

To be fair, almost every other show on network TV is filled with political crap for the other side of the aisle. :-) 

[jumper sage]

2 hours ago, ae2 said:

To be fair, almost every other show on network TV is filled with political crap for the other side of the aisle. :-) 

Can you name any that is as hate filled as LMS?

[readster]

8 hours ago, readster said:

You know, after what happened with Nashville. I wonder how this will work out for LMS. I don't get CMT. So, we'll see. 

Pretty much, they said they didn't do anything new with the show. They saved it just to have a new show. Ratings never went up, more to give the show a conclusion or to milk anything left from it. I know they will be airing LMS episodes on Netflix most likely once seaosn 6 concludes next year. However, the show had ran out of steam just like Nashville did and while many are happy it will get a better send off. Others are saying: "So you are just saving the show to have a show on your network?" 

[jumper sage]

It's already on Netflix and Hulu.  I have not put the show on my picks for either streaming site.

[CountryCrazy]

Is this official ? I haven't heard anything official just rumored speculation . I hope it is true but I have not seen anything stating CMT officially picked it up or am I mistaken ?

[WendyCR72]

It's not official. I just Googled. In "early talks". Although it airs repeats of the show now.

[4leafclover]

Quote

To be fair, almost every other show on network TV is filled with political crap for the other side of the aisle. :-) 

Thank you.

[FormerMod-a1]

I responded in the Canceled thread, that I hadn't seen anything definite either.

[readster]

If CMT does pick it up, I wonder if they will do it like with Hulu and split the costs. I can see guest stars out and maybe a good reason to write off Kristin, Ryan and Boyd for saving money even saying goodbye to Chuck. The problem is, will Tim Allen be able to get away with his political talk on CMT or will he be praising President Trump left and right (which we know in real life he has been back and forth on). If anything, they need to get the show back to making sense again and enough of straw man or plot lines that just end and Vanessa having a brain again. If anything, at least give the series a better send off instead of the embarrassing final episode on ABC. 

[jumper sage]

On 6/16/2017 at 9:19 AM, readster said:

The problem is, will Tim Allen be able to get away with his political talk on CMT or will he be praising President Trump left and right (which we know in real life he has been back and forth on)

I noticed his twitter has been scrubbed of any political discussion.

On 6/15/2017 at 10:32 PM, 4leafclover said:

Thank you.

Are these shows sitcoms, aired in the family hour and advertised as a family show?

[msani19]

CMT will not be picking up the show after all. 

From the article linked below: "The talks were only preliminary, exploring the financial feasibility of producing the series for CMT, which would’ve involved virtually everyone on the show taking a pay cut. I hear in the end, the two sides could not agree on the numbers."

‘Last Man Standing’: No CMT Lifeline For Tim Allen Sitcom As Pickup Talks Fall Through

I can't imagine that the entire cast would be willing to take a large pay cut and the cost was one of the reasons ABC decided to cancel it in the first place. I think it's nice that there are at least some avenues for canceled shows to try to get a second life so it's cool that they tried to work something out. 

[readster]

I agree, they tried, but as the old say goes: "If it's not meant to be, it's not meant to be." I'm just with what most people said: "Give the show a proper final episode." 

[kristanth]

When do you think the Halloween 2016 episode will be aired, either on CMT or Hallmark Channel?

Edited June 27, 2017 by kristanth

[seacliffsal]

I often wonder about the financial implications involved with the decisions to take pay cuts or not.  Although the average income for actors as a whole is low, those on successful t.v. shows or major names in films make much more than the average Americans.  So, better to take a pay cut but have a job (and royalties down the road), or better to not negotiate down and not have an acting job?  I was hoping that the show would be picked up by CMT.  Although "Mike" is very conservative, the other characters represent a more liberal viewpoint (i.e. Mike's dad sells marijuana, etc.).  I think the show would have been improved by losing Kristin and her family.  Oh well.

[readster]

They had just did such a turn with Kristen since season 2 from not only recasting, but throwing out everything else that was built on the character in season 1 out the door and she got worst and worst and worst. If CMT would have picked it up, they could have taken her, Ryan and Boyd and just been done and simply say that they moved to run the Grill in another state. They weren't not going to be miss, but of course that would also mean they would have to give Vanessa good story lines instead of using Ryan as an excuse for something and then Mike being mad that Vanessa has an idea about something for herself.

[Mabinogia]

There was an ep once where Kristin asked Mike to pick her next time he was opening a new Grill in another state. It would have been the perfect time/way to get rid of her. I wouldn't miss her, Ryan or Boyd at all.

[readster]

28 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

There was an ep once where Kristin asked Mike to pick her next time he was opening a new Grill in another state. It would have been the perfect time/way to get rid of her. I wouldn't miss her, Ryan or Boyd at all.

The only problem was, it feels more like they kept Ryan around to just create some stupid political/new age argument with Mike. When those would happen, they both came up looking like idiots, but what does everyone do? Defend Ryan. When really half the time, he is in the wrong and Mike acts like it's 1979.

[Mabinogia]

Mike and Ryan's arguments were my least favorite part of the show. Now Chuck and Mike's interactions were probably my favorite part of the show and the only time I found Ryan tolerable was when they were messing with him. The "bad neighborhood" scene is one of my favorites.

[readster]

Chuck and Mike's were more balanced than Ryan or Mike's. With Ryan and Mike it was: "Ryan sees something in a very limited, stupid light he has no experience with and Mike's world view won't be changed no matter what." The problem was when they pushed Chuck into a more "ethical/racial" point. I'm not talking about the stupidity that was Vanessa with Carol at times, but I remember when Chuck said about making the school named by: Malcolm X. It painted him as someone who didn't know those schools exist and doesn't come across as funny but very straw man outlook. The politics on LMS got so out of control at times, where no one looked smart. 

[webruce]

Have to watch for it , I guess.