Friends - General Discussion

[Hiyo]

Quote

I really liked Joey/Rachel, as I've said before. To me, it was an organic growth of their friendship due to them living together and experiencing that increased intimacy and familiarity. They knew things about one another that the others didn't, had their own private jokes and points of contention. And they were both very attractive people who had admitted to being attracted to each other in the past.

The build of it on Joey's side was quite well done, and they had some fun storylines like TOW Rachel's Book, TOW Joey's Award and TOW Monica's Boots, where you can see why Joey might start to feel more for Rachel.

What I didn't like was how quickly it was dropped afterwards - there was one episode of awkwardness after Joey admitted how he felt, then the writers went back to teasing Rachel/Ross before the baby was born.

I liked Joey and Rachel together as well.

[Hiyo]

If nothing else, it was worth it to get this:

[Kawaiiko]

On 3/11/2021 at 3:24 PM, mojoween said:

Courtney Cox has blue eyes.  

I know that means nothing, but I literally JUST noticed it when she was talking to Chandler about living in France in a house made of cheese.  For the last 35 years, I thought her eyes were brown.

"Jeez, what's with you?"

"Oh, I'm sorry, did you say cheese?"

Seriously, Phoebe just completely dumped on Chandler with her bringing Monica's "soul mate" to Central Perk. 

Come to think of it, I don't like that episode for another reason... Joey tells Rachel he's in wuv with her. 😑

[mojoween]

Monica’s first kiss EVER being Ross / Ross’s first kiss with Rachel being Monica is really icky and not as cute as the writers apparently thought it was.

Ok also “Gucci spelled like Gucky” (or however she said it) is so so stupid because most people who see CC in a word wouldn’t think it makes the CK sound.  I hate that line so much.  Also just that whole scene with Data in the restaurant was so dumb.

Edited March 17, 2021 by mojoween

[Kawaiiko]

16 hours ago, mojoween said:

Monica’s first kiss EVER being Ross / Ross’s first kiss with Rachel being Monica is really icky

That was so disgusting. Especially since Ross just started kissing "Rachel" without her consent and without a second thought. You know, why does Ross even want to be with Rachel anyway? To rewrite his teenage years of awkward nerdy adolescence?  

[Hiyo]

Was it meant to be cute?

[Kawaiiko]

48 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

Was it meant to be cute?

I always figured it was supposed to be funny, but it wasn't. It was sooooo icky.

[Hiyo]

Well, it was both, funny, but in an icky way, the same way Joey and Chandler having to pee on Monica was funny but also eeeewwwwwwwww.

[Kawaiiko]

 

1 minute ago, Hiyo said:

Well, it was both, funny, but in an icky way, the same way Joey and Chandler having to pee on Monica was funny but also eeeewwwwwwwww.

It was just icky. I did think that Joey and Chandler peeing on Monica was LOL funny.

[Hiyo]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then lol

[Kawaiiko]

1 minute ago, Hiyo said:

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then lol

Ok then. lol

[Hiyo]

Cool.

Was that the last flashback episode the show gave us?

Edited March 18, 2021 by Hiyo

[ifionlyknew]

Certain types of humor Friends did not do well.  I found the show the funniest when it just let the characters be themselves and say funny lines.  The six of them were very good comedic actors with good timing.    As mentioned above Ross meeting with his divorce lawyer had some great lines and Schwimmer delivered them perfectly.  Phoebe, Rachel and Joey discussing Monica and Chandler's relationship and whether they know that we know they know is hilarious.  

[Danny Franks]

4 hours ago, ifionlyknew said:

Certain types of humor Friends did not do well.  I found the show the funniest when it just let the characters be themselves and say funny lines.  The six of them were very good comedic actors with good timing.    As mentioned above Ross meeting with his divorce lawyer had some great lines and Schwimmer delivered them perfectly.  Phoebe, Rachel and Joey discussing Monica and Chandler's relationship and whether they know that we know they know is hilarious.  

It's often due to how the story is approached.

So in the case of the flashback the writers started with "what if Ross and Monica kissed accidentally?" and figured out a scenario that would put the characters in that situation and make it work. In the case of "they don't know we know they know!" they started with 'how do we make Chandler and Monica's relationship public?' and just wrote the characters into that story. They worked forward from the question rather than back from it.

Character-oriented writing is always better than scenario-oriented writing.

[Bort]

I thought it was funny. It was pretty much a feather in the cap of the loserdom that was Ross and Monica’s teenage years. 

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

I thought it was funny. It was pretty much a feather in the cap of the loserdom that was Ross and Monica’s teenage years. 

And of course Chandler's reaction: "What did I marry into????"

[Snow Apple]

7 hours ago, Kawaiiko said:

 

It was just icky. I did think that Joey and Chandler peeing on Monica was LOL funny.

I think the difference is that Monica knew what’s happening to her and Rachel didn’t.

I think the kiss was funny but only because it’s tv and not real life.

[Kawaiiko]

On 3/18/2021 at 9:12 AM, Hiyo said:

Was that the last flashback episode the show gave us?

Yes. i just realized that many many more shows do indeed have flashbacks in their finales.

Edited March 19, 2021 by Kawaiiko

[Hiyo]

Not really, lots of shows use flashbacks even up until their last episodes. lol

Buy good to know that was the last one.

Edited March 19, 2021 by Hiyo

[Mr. Meatball Man]

I always hated that last scene, not just because of the writing, but the acting. It was really cartoonish and exaggerated. "You were my midnight mystery kisser?!" "You were my first kiss with Rachel?!" "You were my first kiss ever?!" It felt like a Family Guy parody of the show. 

Matter of fact, that whole episode could be thrown in the garbage can. It felt like a stereotype of the kind of show that Friends is. If someone had it in their head what Friends was about, without having watched a single episode, this is what they would come up with. Like @Danny Franks said, this was an example of situation-based writing, not character-based writing. Besides the flashback revising history, you had Danny DeVito as a stripper and Joey being dumb as hell on a game show (although, it did give us "Paper, snow! A ghost!").

Other thoughts:

-I never had an issue with Joey and Rachel dating. It started off well in season eight with Joey falling for her, and even though Rachel's feelings were more lust than love, it wasn't a big deal. They could have easily dated for half of season ten then broke up to set the stage for Ross and Rachel.

-What's worse is they treat it like the real thing. They make an entire episode about Ross coming to terms with the relationship and giving it his blessing (even though he shouldn't have to). You think Joey and Rachel are about to become an actual couple. Nope. In the next episode, they can't do anything romantic without it being awkward and they break up. What was the point of going to all that trouble? Either have them get together or don't, but you can't make us take it seriously and then have them date for only three episodes. Episode one, we have them figuring out how to tell Ross. Episode two, Ross reacts to the relationship. Episode three, the first one that actually deals with Joey and Rachel as a couple, and they break up because it turns out they never liked each other that way.

-And even worse than that is while they continue giving Rachel things to do that season, Joey becomes a bumbling moron. Not being able to write a good recommendation letter, the game show, speaking gibberish while learning French, celebrating that he got a seed out of his teeth. Unbelievable. 🤢🤮

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Mr. Meatball Man

[Bort]

24 minutes ago, Mr. Meatball Man said:

celebrating that he got a seed out of his teeth

But he was working on it all day!

[Ms Blue Jay]

4 hours ago, Mr. Meatball Man said:

-And even worse than that is while they continue giving Rachel things to do that season, Joey becomes a bumbling moron. Not being able to write a good recommendation letter, the game show, speaking gibberish while learning French, celebrating that he got a seed out of his teeth. Unbelievable. 🤢🤮

 

Totally agree.  The last season was really like a parody of the show.  They got some real idiot writers in there.  I really give credit to Matt for giving it his all.  He never gave up on Joey.  

[Danny Franks]

5 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Totally agree.  The last season was really like a parody of the show.  They got some real idiot writers in there.  I really give credit to Matt for giving it his all.  He never gave up on Joey.  

Especially considering everyone else gets a good wrap up story - Phoebe gets married, Chandler and Monica get a kid and a house, Ross and Rachel get their happy ending.

Joey is just left behind, alone in that apartment with new neighbours he doesn't know. When you think about his reasons for moving to LA, for the spinoff, they become quite bleak because all of his friends were moving forward with their lives and he wasn't. 

Perhaps the promise of the spinoff was what kept Matt invested when he was given some truly awful shit to do in that final season (he was easily the most flanderized of the Friends) but I can't help thinking that, if the spinoff had never happened, the writers still probably wouldn't have done much to tie up Joey's story.

[Kawaiiko]

On 3/23/2021 at 5:02 AM, Danny Franks said:

but I can't help thinking that, if the spinoff had never happened, the writers still probably wouldn't have done much to tie up Joey's story.

You're not wrong. I don't think they would've done much for Joey either. At least he got a modified happy ending... Monica left him 3 lasagnas in his fridge!

(btw, I don't know for sure, but did they ever replace Joey's broken fridge? It came up once and never came up again.)

[Snow Apple]

I wonder if Fun Bobby was supposed to have a bigger recurring role, like Janice. He just faded away and I didn't even remember him until seeing reruns multiple times.

[Bort]

Fun Bobby was like Greedy Gretchen from Three's Company. Talked about a lot but actually seen onscreen? Very seldom. 

[chitowngirl]

They brought Janice around just enough to be amusing, but not too much to be “OMG, WHY is she here?!”.

[Katy M]

3 hours ago, Kawaiiko said:

(btw, I don't know for sure, but did they ever replace Joey's broken fridge? It came up once and never came up again.)

You know what I was thinking was weird about that.  He said something about his parents having that fridge when he was a kid.  But, Chandler was there first.  Did Joey break Chandler's fridge?  And why didn't the apartment come with a fridge?

[Bort]

3 hours ago, Kawaiiko said:

btw, I don't know for sure, but did they ever replace Joey's broken fridge? It came up once and never came up again.

Yes, Joey had a different fridge after that.

[mojoween]

Writers writers writers.

When Phoebe said her dad was the picture in the frame Monica said she thought her dad was in prison, and Phoebe said that was her stepdad.  She said her real father ran out on them before she was born.

But he didn’t, writers!  Because he sang “sleepy girl” to the twins when they were babies.

Man they just did not know in the 90’s how many times we were going to watch seasons of this show.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, mojoween said:

Writers writers writers.

When Phoebe said her dad was the picture in the frame Monica said she thought her dad was in prison, and Phoebe said that was her stepdad.  She said her real father ran out on them before she was born.

But he didn’t, writers!  Because he sang “sleepy girl” to the twins when they were babies.

Man they just did not know in the 90’s how many times we were going to watch seasons of this show.

That's OK.  She obviously didn't remember the sleepy girl singing and someone told her that her father ran out before they were born, either to make him look worse, or so that they wouldn't take it as a personal rejection.

[Hiyo]

I have a feeling had the spin-off not happened, the writers would have just had a Joey’s story wrap up in a similar way anyway, have him get a job on a different show, possibly a prime time one, to show his career was advancing. As for giving him a love interest or have him move out to a different place...who knows. But I have a feeling professionally at least they would have him move on to something better.

[Snow Apple]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

That's OK.  She obviously didn't remember the sleepy girl singing and someone told her that her father ran out before they were born, either to make him look worse, or so that they wouldn't take it as a personal rejection.

Yeah, it was probably her grandmother who lied. Just like she lied about the guy in the picture.

[mojoween]

Good points!  When Phoebe left to go find her dad after her grandma gave her the keys to the cab, Phoebe said “bye grandpa” to a picture of Albert Einstein.

[Mr. Meatball Man]

1 hour ago, Hiyo said:

I have a feeling had the spin-off not happened, the writers would have just had a Joey’s story wrap up in a similar way anyway, have him get a job on a different show, possibly a prime time one, to show his career was advancing. As for giving him a love interest or have him move out to a different place...who knows. But I have a feeling professionally at least they would have him move on to something better.

I find it weird that they had Joey move out to Los Angeles to further his career when he was already doing well professionally. He was the star of Days of Our Lives, he was making more money than ever before. Any time he got an acting job, he didn't even have to leave the city for it. So what was the point of him going to L.A. to start over and deliberately set himself back? It would have made sense if there was a job lined up for him (maybe a sitcom or a drama), but he had to leave New York to get it. His spinoff could have followed his success professionally, and his attempts to start over personally. 

I don't know, I just feel like they had no plans for Joey's ending before the spinoff, or maybe they did and when the spinoff was greenlit, they had to forget those plans. 

[Hiyo]

“I don't know, I just feel like they had no plans for Joey's ending before the spinoff, or maybe they did and when the spinoff was greenlit, they had to forget those plans.”

I definitely feel it was the latter.

As for why the spin-off was set in LA, maybe it would have been easier having him move to another city than having to always explain why he was still in NYC but never saw any of his friends? 

[Bort]

Yeah, the move to LA was definitely to keep people from complaining that Joey’s friends never visited.

[LexieLily]

20 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

Yeah, the move to LA was definitely to keep people from complaining that Joey’s friends never visited.

I barely remember anything of Joey except that the sister that had the kid wasn't the sister that was pregnant in season eight of Friends, but did Joey mention the other five very often?

[Katy M]

49 minutes ago, Mr. Meatball Man said:

I find it weird that they had Joey move out to Los Angeles to further his career when he was already doing well professionally. He was the star of Days of Our Lives, he was making more money than ever before. Any time he got an acting job, he didn't even have to leave the city for it. So what was the point of him going to L.A. to start over and deliberately set himself back? It would have made sense if there was a job lined up for him (maybe a sitcom or a drama), but he had to leave New York to get it. His spinoff could have followed his success professionally, and his attempts to start over personally. 

Didn't he have a job lined up?  It's been a while but I thought he was going to be in a series about skiing(?) or something and it got dropped when he got there.  Pretty much any actor would rather work primetime than daytime.

Edit; it was a cop show on cable with a "combination of nudity and swearing."  

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Katy M

[Ms Blue Jay]

32 minutes ago, LexieLily said:

I barely remember anything of Joey except that the sister that had the kid wasn't the sister that was pregnant in season eight of Friends, but did Joey mention the other five very often?

Sometimes.  There were jokes about Chandler at the beginning.

I really like Season 1.  Season 2 they input a bunch of changes, and it all kind of fell apart.

There was some potential there.  But god, the set decorators were on some hard drugs or something.  The 2000s, LA, they just made it tacky tacky tacky.  I think the last time I said this it was "explained" to me that the 2000s were tacky but, still gross to look at and there are so many 2000s shows I love to look at.  Gilmore Girls, Curb, King of Queens, The Office, etc.  "Joey" was like the colour of vomit.  

Edited March 24, 2021 by Ms Blue Jay

[LexieLily]

Just now, Ms Blue Jay said:

I really like Season 1.  Season 2 they input a bunch of changes, and it all kind of fell apart.

Was that when Joey was engaged to his neighbor?

[Ms Blue Jay]

7 minutes ago, LexieLily said:

Was that when Joey was engaged to his neighbor?

Were they engaged?  I don't remember.  It's been awhile. 

Spoiler

I think they made out at the end of Season 1.  (Unless I'm mixing it up and it was the end of Season 2.)

Lucy Liu came on the show once (two episodes) and she and Matt LeBlanc were adoooooooorable together.  They were also love interests in the "Charlie's Angels" movies.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Ms Blue Jay

[Bort]

Joey slept with his neighbor at the end of season 1. At the end of season 2, they were arguing and almost got married because they were pretty much doing marriage chicken to see who would back out first.

[Danny Franks]

So I'm watching some episodes from season two and... Ross really was a possessive, insecure arse from the start, wasn't he? About three episodes into him and Rachel being in a relationship, he gets completely wound up by the fact she has a sexual past and spends a good portion of the episode freaking out because she lets slip that she enjoyed having sex with Paolo... as if that was ever in question when it was clear the entire basis of their relationship was sex, and Rachel learning that there was more to life than a dull marriage to a boring, uptight dick (actually not Ross, surprisingly).

He's so fucking proprietary of Rachel, all the time. Before they got together, while they were together, after they broke up. He acts as though she belongs to him, and anyone else "enjoying" her is an affront to his pride.

Also recently arrived on the scene is Richard, and Tom Selleck is so effortlessly charming and charismatic that he makes me envious. He's clearly a guy who never walked into a room feeling insecure and not expecting everyone to gravitate towards him, but also not caring whether they did or not - a complete contrast to Ross. The little gag of Chandler growing a moustache because he wanted to be more like Richard is very amusing in hindsight.

 

Edited March 25, 2021 by Danny Franks

[helenamonster]

3 hours ago, Snow Apple said:

Yeah, it was probably her grandmother who lied. Just like she lied about the guy in the picture.

Man, Phoebe's grandmother really told some whoppers, didn't she? Lest we forgot the chocolate chip cookie recipe. 

"You see, it is stuff like this which is why you're BURNING IN HELL!"

[Nellise]

10 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Also recently arrived on the scene is Richard, and Tom Selleck is so effortlessly charming and charismatic that he makes me envious.

Tom Selleck has some really bad line readings though whenever he's trying to be funny. Two bad ones are when they're playing foosball and he's trying to trashtalk and then when Chandler is trying to be normal and Richard says "Ewww yeah I don't like you like this".  There are a couple others too, but he really wasn't a comedic actor.

[Kawaiiko]

11 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

So I'm watching some episodes from season two and... Ross really was a possessive, insecure arse from the start, wasn't he? About three episodes into him and Rachel being in a relationship, he gets completely wound up by the fact she has a sexual past and spends a good portion of the episode freaking out because she lets slip that she enjoyed having sex with Paolo... as if that was ever in question when it was clear the entire basis of their relationship was sex, and Rachel learning that there was more to life than a dull marriage to a boring, uptight dick (actually not Ross, surprisingly).

He's so focused on keeping Rachel for himself that he doesn't want any men in her life ("Do you really need another friend?").  This video actually has some advice on what not to do based on Ross's behavior during the show. Check it out here: 

(I mostly agree with it, but Carol and Susan, especially Susan, treated him really unfairly. i.e. where she wants the baby's last name to be Willick-Bunch)

11 hours ago, helenamonster said:

Man, Phoebe's grandmother really told some whoppers, didn't she? Lest we forgot the chocolate chip cookie recipe. 

Pretty much everyone in her family lied to her at some point. Well except for Frank Jr. and Alice, but Phoebe didn't know about them until later.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Kawaiiko

[chitowngirl]

And Ursula knew things: she knew who their birth mother was, she new about their mom’s suicide note, she had her birth certificate (though Phoebe didn’t, that point makes me twitchy because she would have needed it for driver’s license, applying for jobs, etc). If Ursula was privy to this info, no wonder the two of them never got along. She was clearly the favorite, as Phoebe has mentioned. 

[Bort]

Or Ursula didn’t run away and thus received all this info and next of kin stuff because they were able to find her. Phoebe lived on the street. As for not having a birth certificate, that may not have been a deal breaking problem back then.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

And Ursula knew things: she knew who their birth mother was, she new about their mom’s suicide note, she had her birth certificate (though Phoebe didn’t, that point makes me twitchy because she would have needed it for driver’s license, applying for jobs, etc). If Ursula was privy to this info, no wonder the two of them never got along. She was clearly the favorite, as Phoebe has mentioned. 

I was going to say that Phoebe may not have had a DL. A lot of city dwellers don't.  But we do see her drive.  Badly, but still.  And, yes, unless that massage place that fired her for "being a whore" was operating illegally and paying her under the table, she would have needed two forms of ID to get that job.  She also had to have gotten a passport at some point because she went to Barbados.  I know that was after the birth cert reveal, but I feel like Ross only gave them a few days notice, which means she probably didn't run out and apply for a passport then and there.

I posted a while back on the things that only happen on TV page of the mind boggling number of adults who have never seen their birth certificate and learn something shocking about themselves whilst in their 30s.  EG birth date, birth place, birth parents.