Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[Carrie Ann]

Right, she should be putting herself on a path to run the city as mayor someday. She should be the best ADA she can be, then DA, then take other public office, then it's Mayor Laurel Lance. That's the kind of path that makes sense for her character. I'd be fine with that! But Black Canary? No.

[wonderwall]

I still want Laurel to become Manhunter! I feel like the writers have perfectly set up for Laurel to become Manhunter now that Kate Spencer is dead. It would definitely be an interesting arc because it would perfectly juxtapose Oliver's hero journey. While Oliver won't kill, Laurel would do anything to seek justice even if that means killing a man. It would also be interesting to see Laurel keep her extracurricular activities from Oliver and team arrow. Sort of like a role reversal.

 

EDIT:  I made this comment on spoilerTV and thought I would share but apparently I copied and pasted the wrong thing and didn't notice. Sorry, it's just really late and I'm super tired and not paying attention :p

Edited May 23, 2014 by wonderwall

[slayer2]

I don't know that this is the right place to talk about that though.

Edited May 23, 2014 by slayer2

[wonderwall]

That stint with the trends though (one where KC fans want her out of Arrow). It just goes to show that even Katie Cassidy fans don't like KC as Laurel Lance. They're disappointed with her character. I think that says a lot about Laurel and her likability. 

[millahnna]

This is the thing I can't get past.  They can fake the skills to some degree and ask the audience to ignore KC too slender build, but why oh why oh why would Laurel end up as a vigilante when nothing in her life even hints toward that direction?

 

Yeah I'm having a problem with that, as well.  Before we found out that Sara has "died" twice just after her introduction, I would have thought they might kill off Sara heroically and have Laurel take up the mantle after a season or two.  And I could have been down for that if the writing for Laurel got better.  But a third death would feel really contrived. So maybe...

 

Well said, BkWurm1. The only thing I can think of, if the EP's do go that route, is that seeing Starling nearly destroyed (again) and all the risk Oliver and his allies took to save it has inspired Laurel to change the way she does things.

 

If they spent the bulk of next season having her build up skills (more self defense classes would certainly make sense), they could do something like the above and have Oliver flat out out of commission for a bit right after.  That could give her similar motivation to if they'd gone the Sara death route.  It's too bad they've written the sister swapping so poorly; her having massive unresolved issues still over the cheating and other secrets could have made a nice juxtaposition for this. 

 

That stint with the trends though (one where KC fans want her out of Arrow). It just goes to show that even Katie Cassidy fans don't like KC as Laurel Lance. They're disappointed with her character. I think that says a lot about Laurel and her likability. 

 

I'm a big fan of hers and yeah, right there.  I don't want her out of the show; I just want them to figure out a way to do something that makes sense for the character (and they have many, many options to choose from that wouldn't require them to retcon massively).  But the backlash against the character and the actress in the role has been so strong that I'm not sure that anything they did, even if it was super duper awesome and totally fit perfectly, wouldn't be too little too late. 

[catrox14]

 

But the backlash against the character and the actress in the role has been so strong that I'm not sure that anything they did

 

The character and/or the actor have received IMO valid criticism since the show started.  However that criticism seems to have fallen on the deaf ears of the writers and showrunners since Laurel has not only stayed in the show, she is apparently heading to an even bigger role.

[slayer2]

I'm at episode 12 of season 1 now and I can see what KC means about the heart of the show right now. I'm loving how everyone fits in to this season right now (except Thea) but Laurel especially has been warm, charming and able to admit when she's at fault, a viable romantic lead and I like her chemistry with the Arrow/the Hood too. Though I find her chemistry with the Arrow different than her chemistry with Oliver, kind of like Lois' chemistry with Superman was different than with Clark. I also like seeing things from the legal perspective and I love how big her heart is. She was a million times nicer to Thea than I'd ever be even when Thea was treating her like shit for helping her.

[millahnna]

The character and/or the actor have received IMO valid criticism since the show started.  However that criticism seems to have fallen on the deaf ears of the writers and showrunners since Laurel has not only stayed in the show, she is apparently heading to an even bigger role.

 

Oh I agree that the criticism has been valid.  I'm just saying that the Laurel stuff has been so bad that I'm not sure anything will help to fix it at this point.  Even if next season returns with some solid writing for the character that does a better job of building on what we've been shown on screen (i.e. addressing the disconnect), I think it might still be too little, too late for many.  Like I said, I don't want the character off the show, just written better.  But at this point the showrunners have done so much damage that it might be better for them to find a decent through arc to write her out. 

[wonderwall]

I think that the first half of season 3 is going to be a huge test for Laurel/KC. If she wins over the fans before the winter midseason break, then they'll keep her around. if she fails to gather support from the crowds and fails to create any buzz like Felicity did in the finale, then I'm pretty sure they'll write her out by the end of season 3 (that is if her contract is for 3 years... which I'm pretty sure it is).

 

The Problem with Laurel/BC is that BC is such a huge character that the writers don't really know how to juggle two huge characters on the same show. Their main focus is and will always be on Oliver and his team because it's HIS show, so obviously they'll put BC/Laurel on the backburner, thus her character will suffer. There is no time for Laurel's rise to becoming BC because there are more important things to address. This is one of the main reasons why I'm against her becoming BC. I don't want to watch her arc in expense of Felicity's and Diggle's arcs. We barely know about their personal lives as it is, and they're more integral to the plot. It's a shame that the writers wasted time on Laurel when they could've shown us more Team Arrow goodness.

Edited May 25, 2014 by wonderwall

[Password]

The Problem with Laurel/BC is that BC is such a huge character that the writers don't really know how to juggle to huge characters on the same show. Their main focus is and will always be on Oliver and his team because it's HIS show, so obviously they'll put BC/Laurel on the backburner, thus her character will suffer. There is no time for Laurel's rise to becoming BC because there are more important things to address. This is one of the main reasons why I'm against her becoming BC. I don't want to watch her arc in expense of Felicity's and Diggle's arcs. We barely know about their personal lives as it is, and they're more integral to the plot. It's a shame that the writers wasted time on Laurel when they could've shown us more Team Arrow goodness.

I agree wholeheartedly that Laurel's character is too big to fit into Arrow. The show is meant to be about Oliver Queen, not Laurel Lance so it routinely feels like 2 different shows are going on at the same time. That's why the Lance family drama annoyed me so much because it took away from the overall story about Oliver and his road to bring a hero.

More team Arrow and less Laurel Lance is what I like and what I thought I signed onto, from the second half of season 1 to the first half of season 2. Felicity and Diggle are far more interesting to me and I want to learn about them, particularly Felicity whom we know basically nothing. Season 3 is definitely make or break for Laurel. Hopefully she can actually be integrated into Oliver Queen's story now that she knows he's the Arrow.

[quarks]

I'm at episode 12 of season 1 now and I can see what KC means about the heart of the show right now. I'm loving how everyone fits in to this season right now (except Thea) but Laurel especially has been warm, charming and able to admit when she's at fault, a viable romantic lead 

 

 

And this right here is why I'm actually convinced that the writing for season two has to have been deliberately done to tear Laurel down so that she no longer looks like a viable romantic lead. When I rewatched the first part of season one, I was surprised to see that Laurel really did have her charming and warm moments.  Unfortunately, for the most part, those moments weren't with Oliver, and they were undercut by some scenes that did Laurel no favors - mostly her reaction to Tommy's plan to throw a benefit party for CRNI. Nonprofits just don't turn that sort of thing down, especially nonprofits on the brink of going under - putting several people out of work.  That played out even worse in a rewatch, since I watched knowing that Laurel's concern for CRNI's files got Tommy killed - when just months before she'd been willing to let the entire organization go under rather than let Tommy help her out because she figured he was only helping her out so he could sleep with her. Auugh.  And she also had that really horrible scene where her father was putting police protection on her for excellent reasons and she acted like an annoying teenager. And she kept getting kidnapped. And that dinner with Helena, sigh. And what we kept getting told about her didn't match what we saw on the screen.

 

So, mixed, and even then, the writing for Laurel was incredibly inconsistent, which didn't help. But still, she did have several likeable moments then, all with Tommy. The only real problem I had with her was that I just couldn't figure out why she was still interested in Oliver - the Hood, sure, but Oliver, no. Their scenes together never worked for me.  With Tommy - well, I found their interactions boring, but that relationship at least made sense on screen: the actor for Tommy sold his interest; her ambivalence made sense, and Tommy was charming enough to explain why she'd overcome that ambivalence.  

 

I'll also add that in my recollection people didn't like Laurel much, but the Laurel hate didn't really start getting going until the second half of the first season, and then the second season. 

 

Of course, it helps that in the first half of the first season, the women Laurel gets compared to on screen are Joanna, who has no life/purpose other than being Laurel's best friend and occasional voice of reason; Moira, who is clearly involved in all sorts of shady stuff; Thea the bratty teenager; Helena the nutcase; and Felicity of very few scenes and a lot of babbling. Even with Helena's quick bonding with Oliver, really only Joanna and Felicity came out looking good there, and their screentime was incredibly limited. Since then, Thea has improved; Felicity's screen presence has increased, and Laurel is now getting compared to Sara, Shado, Lyla, Isabel, McKenna, Sin, Nyssa and Amanda Waller, and only the Amanda comparison does Laurel any favors. I also don't think Joanna's disappearance from the screen helped Laurel much - Joanna didn't add much to the main plot, but she did let audiences have a glimpse into what Laurel was thinking, and she gave Laurel a few warm moments with hugs and the sense that Laurel's coworkers liked her.  That's been mostly absent for Laurel this season.

Edited May 25, 2014 by quarks

[slayer2]

I noted that Joanna disappeared as well when watching the last few episodes of season 2. As a particular fan of Annie Ilonzeh I was actually looking out for her. I agree it's a a shame to remove her from the show as did give a very clear view of what was going on in Laurel's head and allowed the character to be human and show empathy like when her brother died and Laurel went after the killer and went to the station to pick up her things. I'm really sorry to soon view season 2 where they ruin this character because she's quite charming to me now. I like the idea of the Arrow having a lawyer's ear who works in tandem with him. If they veered aggressively away from this in the second half of season 1 (which you all seem to be saying they did) then sabotage makes the most sense and I can't understand why. If they hate the actor or character so much why not simply release her from her contract? They didn't on Smallville, it's not impossible.

Edited May 25, 2014 by slayer2

[catrox14]

f they veered aggressively away from this in the second half of season 1 (which you all seem to be saying they did) then sabotage makes the most sense and I can't understand why. If they hate the actor or character so much why not simply release her from her contract

 

 

 

I don't believe there is any kind sabotage going on of Laurel's character or Cassidy's career.  I believe that the showrunners and writers are acting in good faith to make Laurel a viable character.

 

It's been a series of unfortunate events that started with making Laurel a lawyer in the first place, IMO a miscast of the part, spotty writing and other characters making Laurel superfluous.  And now they are attempting to make Laurel relevant again and that's a pretty hard thing to do right how when IMO it's pretty clear the only way to make that happen is to remove another character to elevate Laurel to relevancy and they got rid of the wrong character (Sara) to make that happen. 

Edited May 25, 2014 by catrox14

[KirkB]

But if Laurel isn't working as a character (I'm half convinced she is actually what and where the EP's want her to be and they don't understand why some people don't like her) why would the EP's keep pushing her forward? Why not simply eliminate her from the show? I

[Password]

The more I think about it the more if seems possible the writers would remove a liked character for Laurel. If said liked character becomes a memory, we'd be stuck with Laurel and over exposure would force us to like her or at the least tolerate her. I do wonder why they continue with such a weak point in the show.

In s1 I didn't dislike Laurel, I just didn't have any time for her. I was indifferent to her, far more interested in the new team Arrow. In s2 I could ignore her for the first half because she didn't seem particularly relevant, and it was made especially easy to write her off when she had her hate Arrow phase. Then in the second half they shoved her and her family drama in my face and it annoyed me because I didn't understand what the writers wanted me to think of her and because she took time away from team Arrow.

I really hope her story in s3 is super awesome because otherwise Arrow is becoming or has become such a waste of potential.

[slayer2]

But if Laurel isn't working as a character (I'm half convinced she is actually what and where the EP's want her to be and they don't understand why some people don't like her) why would the EP's keep pushing her forward? Why not simply eliminate her from the show? I

I don't understand this either. Why not aggressively work to fix her or write her off for a season? In that time she could pick up the skills and experiences she needs to fall into line with canon. Send KC off to train and read the comics and bring her back at the end of season 3 or start of season 4. It worked for Spike on Buffy.

Edited May 25, 2014 by slayer2

[bluebonnet]

slayer2, can you further articulate the moments that Laurel was warm and charming?  I have done cursory searches to read more about what Laurel fans have had to say about her because I truly want to know what others are seeing that I might perhaps be missing.  I'm not happy with what I found because most of it has to do with comic canon.  I find it interesting to hear from someone who started off on the show in the second season and then gone back to watch the beginning as you first saw Laurel at her worst in terms of writing and I'd say even in terms of KC's acting.  When I started the show, I was immediately turned off from the Laurel character for reasons that have been discussed in some of the threads on this forum.  I went back to rewatch and my opinion wasn't any different, but it's because I knew what to expect already.  I'm going to be doing the rewatch with everyone else starting tomorrow and I want to be more clear about what to look for.  I think having the views and opinions of someone who reversed watched would be helpful, especially in understanding the original intent for this character and seeing if there's a plausible way for them to get to a point where Laurel is a more likeable and relevant character. 

Edited May 25, 2014 by SystemRemote

[slayer2]

Sure! I started season 1 with no real expectations about anyone except maybe Tommy (whom I knew people liked) and just hoping the island flashbacks wouldn't bug the shit out of me. When I first saw Laurel she was (and rightfully so) bitching out Oliver for screwing and essentially killing her sister. Hers (and Detective Lance) was the only rage towards him that I felt was justified so I appreciated that about her right away. Then she apologized for wishing he was dead which I felt was big of her considering. Then I saw her work against the criminals of the city which she did fearlessly, I'm not confident that I wouldn't simply back down in her situation when threatened as she was or simply live in constant fear. Then you add her consternation and dedication to others after what happened with Oliver and Sara and I like her even more, throw in her caring for her father with an inordinate amount of patience of which I don't have with my Dad and a lot for me to respect.

Once they started getting into the Tommy stuff and how sweet and affectionate she is with him and her kindness towards Thea when she'd been nothing but awful to her and top it off by having her work in tandem with the Arrow to help her friend and any other downtrodden in Starling City and by then I had nothing but affection for her. Her best quality thus far has been her heart and it's huge.

[catrox14]

FWIW, I'm not defending the show keeping KC and Laurel, I'm just saying that they clearly are trying to fix what they broke vs throwing it out.  Whether that works or not...remains to be seen.

 

Also, FWIW, I pretty much disliked Laurel from the moment she showed up. And here's why.  The very first scene in which we see her at CNRI and the news about Oliver being alive breaks.  Her coworkers are watching the news which is a pretty big deal.  She hears the news, and I think she was shocked and upset (which would be expected ( I say think because it was hard to tell from KC's acting choice there). Either way she walks over to the conference table where they are gathered watching the news and doesn't say a word, but instead picks up the remote, turns off the TV, throws the remote back on the table and gives everyone there the stinkeye for watching the news,and walks away. My immediate reaction was "Who the fuck do you think you are that you can just determine what those people should be watching?" Was it insensitive of them to watch it? I don't know, but if she didn't like hearing the news she should have asked them to please turn it off.  If they didn't then she could go the pissy route or she could have just walked into the hallway or something. But the way it was written and acted (assuming she acted it the way they intended) came across as though she caught someone watching Skinemax at work or something. I presume they were going for me feeling sorry for her but I'll got out of it was, "Ugh, who is this annoying person!?"

[statsgirl]

I'm at episode 12 of season 1 now and I can see what KC means about the heart of the show right now. I'm loving how everyone fits in to this season right now (except Thea) but Laurel especially has been warm, charming and able to admit when she's at fault, a viable romantic lead and I like her chemistry with the Arrow/the Hood too.

That's interesting because we're doing a bit of a re-watch here and I saw ep 2 Honor Thy Father last night (I think it was ep 2, the one at the club).  Laurel is still cold to Oliver (justifiably to some extent at this point) while Tommy is torn and trying to reconcile everyone.  Late in the episode Laurel figures out that Oliver wasn't surprised when Thea told him that she and Tommy had got together and that's because he knew already. Tommy said something about it being a good thing that Oliver is okay with it and she spits out that he has no right to sit in judgement over her.  My reaction was "what a bitch" because it's not all about her, it's even more about Tommy who was Oliver's best friend and now feels guilty for loving the same woman he thinks Oliver loved and only lost because he was stuck on the island.  It's partly the dialogue but it's also her line reading because she could have toned it down, or even complained about it because writers will change things when the actors have a better way.  But it's consistent with the Laurel of season 2 that she saw things only from how they affected her.

 

Once she had accepted a relationship with Tommy, I thought her best scenes were with him as well as with her father (except for the stupidity in refusing police protection when 2 people had just been killed on the case).  But even when she's living with Tommy, Oliver asks for her help with Thea and she lights up and pushes Tommy aside, going to her father to drop the charges.  It's always all about Oliver for her, whether she's hating him at the moment or thinking she's in love with him.

 

The dinner with Oliver and Helena was cringe-worthy, but interesting in that her relationship with Tommy was starting to parallel the mistakes she had made with Oliver Before Island.  She pushed Tommy too hard, he lied to her because he felt he couldn't tell her the truth, she made assumptions and then it all blew up in her face.  The difference is that I think Tommy truly loved her and he lied to her because he felt he wasn't good enough for her whereas Oliver just took the easiest way out.

 

I think what she did to her mother in Salvation (1x18) was horrible.

 

So while Laurel had moments of warmth in season 1, as she does in season 2 with Sara when she's not throwing barware, it didn't make for a completely warm and attractive character.

 

ETA:  Catrox, that's exactly it for me.  She could be kind if it didn't cost her anything but it was always about what was best for Laurel in any situation, and damn what anyone else wanted.

Edited May 25, 2014 by statsgirl

[slayer2]

Sure! I started season 1 with no real expectations about anyone except maybe Tommy (whom I knew people liked) and just hoping the island flashbacks wouldn't bug the shit out of me. When I first saw Laurel she was (and rightfully so) bitching out Oliver for screwing and essentially killing her sister. Hers (and Detective Lance) was the only rage towards him that I felt was justified so I appreciated that about her right away. Then she apologized for wishing he was dead which I felt was big of her considering. Then I saw her work against the criminals of the city which she did fearlessly, I'm not confident that I wouldn't simply back down in her situation when threatened as she was or simply live in constant fear. Then you add her consternation and dedication to others after what happened with Oliver and Sara and I like her even more, throw in her caring for her father with an inordinate amount of patience of which I don't have with my Dad and a lot for me to respect.

Once they started getting into the Tommy stuff and how sweet and affectionate she is with him and her kindness towards Thea when she'd been nothing but awful to her and top it off by having her work in tandem with the Arrow to help her friend and any other downtrodden in Starling City and by then I had nothing but affection for her. Her best quality thus far has been her heart and it's huge.

[wonderwall]

 

I'm at episode 12 of season 1 now and I can see what KC means about the heart of the show right now. I'm loving how everyone fits in to this season right now (except Thea) but Laurel especially has been warm, charming and able to admit when she's at fault, a viable romantic lead

I think that while she was the heart of the show in the first 12 episodes, she isn't anymore. KC is just trying so hard to make people see that her character is relevant that she's clutching onto the past instead of thinking about her character today. 'Good-doers' don't blackmail people. Good doers would have moral dilemmas when they kill people (even if it's out of self defense)... But this didn't happen with Laurel. KC isn't looking at her character properly, she hasn't completely understood Laurel and her motivations. If she is confused, why can't she ask the EPs or the writers? Stephen and Caity were probably confused as to why OQ and SL got back together, and they had a conversation as to why it probably happened... We don't see that happening with KC. 

 

I'm just upset with her because she has such a superficial understanding of Laurel. She disregards her depth and that translates onto the screen. Yes, Laurel is meant to be BC (in the comics), but why is she the way she is now? Who is Laurel Lance? It's something that KC never really answered in her interviews. Instead of focusing on the future, she should talk about what Laurel is going through right now. 

[slayer2]

I can understand that, I was terribly frustrated with Tom Welling when he would proudly state he never read a Superman comic. As an actor having something that rich to mine can only help your performance. Research is so key to a defined role like this.It's been my experience that a lot of CW/WB writers tend to follow the actors lead when they write it was that way with Chloe on SV, clearly that way with EBR on this show, Pacey on Dawson's Creek. So it seems that (although it shouldn't be necessary with a seasoned writer) the actor needs to infuse the character with their core values irrespective of what's on screen to somehow lead the writers to a forgone conclusion. I can't speak for KC but if it were me and I wanted my show back from EBR, I would read every Black Canary comic I could get my hands on and hit the gym and the martial arts like I wanted to catch a felony.

It's probably tricky as well because there are often different directors for every episode and each one has a different view of Laurel and if she has been written as inconsistently as everyone says it's easy yo see how she turned into a plot device like Lana Lang became.

Honestly if I were KC I'd just hit the comics and the gym and if they still kept fucking up I'd ask to be let out of my contract because what they're doing to her character and her in terms of marginalisation and plot isolation comes off as pretty degrading IMO.

[catrox14]

I would imagine being let out of contract early would cost her some serious dollars. Just like if they wanted to release her early.  

 

I don't have a huge problem with an actor not studying the source material for a character as long as whatever they bring I believe seems to fit the character they are trying to create.  Say what you want about Welling in Smallville and regardless if one thinks he was lousy, I think he played Clark in a consistent manner throughout the run of the show. He made specific choices IMO that informed Smallville's Clark Kent and he didn't really veer from even when he was playing evil Clark or forgetful Clark or when he played Kal-El.  I always knew, yup that's Clark.  And for this viewer, that is the most important factor when you opt to not use the source material as a reference. Own the character through and through and I think Welling did exactly that.  

 

Cassidy IMO has not been consistent at all in how she portrays Laurel. And the writing shouldn't matter as long as she has the character beats down. I just don't see that at all. 

[slayer2]

I don't really agree about the writing not mattering. The beats are dictated by the writing and direction, the actor can hope to infuse something more for sure but at the end of the day if the writing has you doing some shitty thing like for example rape or murder there isn't a lot the actor can do to make the character come out looking good. Hell some movies have been destroyed by directors alone, Ryan Phillips says he filmed an entirely different movie in 54 than what appeared on the screen. A lot of things can be changed in the editing room. I think of course the actor must do the best they can but when you have shit writing you have shit writing, (The Tomorrow People is a wonderful example of this).

ETA *example damn you autocorrect!

Edited May 25, 2014 by slayer2

[quarks]

Her best quality thus far has been her heart and it's huge.

 

 

And see, I didn't see that.

 

I did see Laurel as someone who was willing to work overtime for the downtrodden, which was great, and who could be very sweet and affectionate towards Tommy - could be. But this all seemed undercut by so much else.

 

To the example of the local news show mentioned above, I'll add this: the scene where Laurel and her client encounter Oliver in the courthouse in the second episode. Laurel is immediately, completely hostile, wondering why Oliver is in the courthouse at all. When Oliver and the client (IMDB says her name is Emily, so let's go with that) try to be polite, Laurel gets more hostile. Emily immediately looks deeply uncomfortable and gives Oliver an apologetic smile as she and Laurel take off - showing that even Emily, who at this stage has a lot of other things to deal with, thinks that Laurel was out of line here. 

 

This is the moment when one of my friends not only gave up on Laurel, but almost gave up on the show. Part of the problem is that the scene was so inconsistent - when we'd last seen Laurel with Oliver, she'd offered to listen to his island experiences if he needed someone to talk to, so this whole scene had a bit of a whiplash effect, not to mention making Laurel look kinda petty - "Sure, I was going to forgive you, but since you turned down my offer to listen to you, well, I'll just be rude to you in public."  But more to the point, this was the first of many scenes where Laurel put her emotional needs above what her client needed. It went back to the show, not tell option: we keep getting told that Laurel is warm hearted and focused on protecting the downtrodden, and yet here, we see Laurel willing to make her client uncomfortable to score a point off someone she was irritated with.

 

And this seemed to happen every episode: Laurel would take the opportunity to score points on other people, or focus on what would be best for Laurel, not everyone else around her.  It's fine and even understandable, but it meant that I tended to see more of Laurel's cold moments, rather than her warm hearted moments with Joanna - which she did have, and which were the moments when I said, huh, Laurel can be likeable!

[slayer2]

But I'm assuming quarks that happened after episode 13? catrox was asking me my impression so far as a new viewer of the show so I'm just going by the first half of season 1 and I like what I see of her thus far. :)

[quarks]

Slayer2, that scene that I just described happens right in the second episode.

 

Oliver is at the courthouse to fill out his "I'M ALIVE!" paperwork. He runs into Emily and Laurel as he's leaving the building.

 

I'm not saying that Laurel didn't have her warmhearted, kind moments - she did; but she also had a lot of moments that counteracted that impression for me, to the point that when I rewatched the first season I was surprised by how many likeable moments she'd had - the memorable ones for me were the unlikeable ones.

Edited May 25, 2014 by quarks

[wonderwall]

Yet another person who completely checks out of the show when Laurel is on screen :p Don't worry Slayer2, it happens to the best of us!

[catrox14]

 

I don't really agree about the writing not mattering. The beats are dictated by the writing and direction, the actor can hope to infuse something more for sure but at the end of the day if the writing has you doing some shitty thing like for example rape or murder there isn't a lot the actor can do to make the character come out looking good. Hell some movies have been destroyed by directors alone, Ryan Phillips says he filmed an entirely different movie in 54 than what appeared on the screen.

 

Perhaps I should have used character traits instead of beats. My point, is that the writing will only take the actor so far.  The writing does not dictate nor should it what kind of expression they choose to play a scene or how they choose to read a line, what kind of voice inflection, body language, a movement of an eye, a furrowing of a brow or a well time head tilt. It's a much more internal thing IMO, at least with good actors.  They can make a terribly written line work. A good actor can polish a turd and make me believe the shit they are saying. It won't change the stupid words, but they can do something with those words to make it better.  That comes down to the actor and the director.  And I can't put the onus on every director that KC has worked with here because that a lot of directors and not all of them suck. 

Edited May 25, 2014 by catrox14

[slayer2]

Yet another person who completely checks out of the show when Laurel is on screen :p Don't worry Slayer2, it happens to the best of us!

lol. That's what I was thinking. Sorry quarks I must have blacked the fuck out. I guess that proves your point somewhat. I guess I wasn't irritated because given the circumstances of what happened between Oliver and Sara I felt like Laurel was the only one {well Laurel and Det Lance} justified to throw shade at Ollie upon his initial return.

Edited May 25, 2014 by slayer2

[wonderwall]

It's justifiable for Laurel to throw shade at Oliver. But she shouldn't have been so inconsistent and be nice and implicitly tell him that she's there if he ever wants to talk, only to go back to hating him the next second for no apparent reason. That's a really shitty thing to do. If you want to throw shade, then throw shade. But don't be an ass and give a man false hope. :/ 

 

*SPOILERS*

 

All the nice things Laurel did in season 1 was undercut by something crappy she did. that's why I couldn't sympathize with her when Tommy died. she cared for him, yes. But she also broke his heart before he died by sleeping with Oliver, Tommy's best friend. She basically was putting herself in between two best friends, two brothers, and didn't think twice about it. It just goes to show how selfish she is. 

Edited May 25, 2014 by wonderwall

[quarks]

No, it's fine. I even completely agree that Laurel had the right to be furious - more than furious. The problem is: that scene came right after the end of the first episode, where she had told Oliver that if he needed someone to talk to, she'd be there. So basically, she went from justifiably furious (I was entirely on her side in their first scene), to inexplicably forgiving, to justifiably furious again - but in this case, that furious scene happened in a professional environment, and made her client uncomfortable. 

 

I tend to think Laurel's actual middle name is "Inconsistent."

[Zalyn]

but in this case, that furious scene happened in a professional environment, and made her client uncomfortable. 

 

I tend to think Laurel's actual middle name is "Inconsistent."

The observation of the apparent unprofessionalism probably kept me from buying Laurel's "lawyer helping the disadvantaged" angle that I really wanted to like.  It would have been so easy for the writers to give Laurel an extra second to see her client off with a smile then drag Oliver around a corner to chew him out. 

 

Not only would it have allowed us to appreciate her professionalism, but it would have also put us on her side (being annoyed at Oliver bothering us while we were working) and set up a potential for duplicity later on (interesting character element).

[quarks]

Yeah. When that scene was followed by Laurel's continuing inability to win a single case without the Hood's help - and yes, I know, it's the nature of the show, but a throwaway line or two about "Congrats on the Decker case, well done - I didn't think you could pull that off --" a Decker who has nothing to do with Oliver, would have helped, and then later followed by Laurel's whole "Oh, I can't accept Tommy's help because he just wants to sleep with me, even if the entire clinic shuts down thanks to my decision," I had problems buying her devotion to her clients and her professionalism. 

[statsgirl]

I think the person with most shade to throw at Oliver was Quentin Lance because Oliver got his daughter dead.  (Fortunately he was allowed to for the whole s1.)  With Laurel, it never seemed to be about hurting Sara, it swung between  "You cheated on me with my sister!" to "Let me help  you", it was all or nothing and you never knew on which side she'd be on.

 

The problem for me is that the only way I can make Laurel's behaviour consistent.is to make it all about her.  The ship going down was her pain, not Sara's; her parents splitting up and her father losing himself in a bottle was them being mean to her,  Even her work at CNRI, except in certain cases  like an Innocent Man when she did it for the Hood, seemed to me to be more about how she saw herself as saving the world rather than actually caring about the individuals.  When Quentin very reasonably wanted to put police protection on her in Home Invasion, she acted like 14 year old getting grounded.

 

 

that's why I couldn't sympathize with her when Tommy died. she cared for him, yes. But she also broke his heart before he died by sleeping with Oliver, Tommy's best friend. She basically was putting herself in between two best friends, two brothers, and didn't think twice about it. It just goes to show how selfish she is.

She also got him killed trying to save her because she wouldn't listen to Moira, Quentin or Oliver about not going to the Glades that night.  The EPs said we would sympathize with her when we got to see the cut scene of her trying to gather the documents so the bad guys could still be prosecuted but I think that's another example of where they failed to understand how Laurel came across.

 

followed by Laurel's whole "Oh, I can't accept Tommy's help because he just wants to sleep with me, even if the entire clinic shuts down thanks to my decision,"

I had forgotten about that. How self-involved do you have to be to go there, especially after she'd already slept with him earlier?  Does she think she's that good?

Edited May 25, 2014 by statsgirl

[wonderwall]

Laurel Lance is actually the worst sister in the world and here's why (spoilers to those who aren't up to date):

1. Laurel wasn't mad at Oliver for killing Sara, she was mad at him for cheating on her with Sara.
2. When she saw the scars on Sara's back she didn't talk to her about it, tell her that if she needed to talk to anyone, she would be there (like Laurel did with Oliver in the first episode)
3. When she found the scars and pieced that Oliver and Sara were the vigilantes, she didn't go to Sara first. She went to Oliver. Why wouldn't she go to Sara first?
4. Laurel didn't bat an eye when Sara disappeared only to leave her with a text message about needing a change in scenery. Quentin was worried but Laurel didn't really care. 
5. Sara told Laurel about her crush on Oliver. And that's when she decided to make a move on him??? You don't do that to your sister. It's a crappy thing to do
6. She was mad at Sara when she came back. Instead of being happy that she finally got Sara back, she threw a glass at her and told her to get out because Laurel could only focus on taking Oliver away from her. 
7. Laurel knew about Nyssa and how she wasn't a good person, yet had no qualms about Sara going with her to god knows where. You would think Laurel would be more upset about Sara leaving. But apparently since Sara gave Laurel the rights to Oliver and her leather jacket, it's no problemo. 

 

Did Laurel get a little better after Oliver's speech about Laurel being the most selfish character? Yes. She actually became a little better and more supportive of her sister, but then that went to hell when she looked happy that her sister was leaving. There was no hint of sadness in her expression and that's just terrible.

Edited May 25, 2014 by wonderwall

[Sakura12]

The sister's could've been explored a lot more if they wanted me to care about them. 

 

I've seen Laurel fans saying they want Sara to come back and train Laurel to be the Black Canary. Thinking that'll make Sara fans like Laurel or something to see the sister relationship. But to me what they've shown of the sister relationship is not something that was good for Laurel. They showed that Laurel looked down on Sara and was in some kind of competition with her (in her own mind) and that she wanted everything Sara has. 

 

The main thing for me is that the Laurel character and KC don't even realize that it's not what Sara has that makes her likable it's the way she treats people. Laurel has an abrasive personality and superficial mind set while Sara has a likable personality and a pragmatic mind set. Sara's pragmatism can make her scary but at least it's something that's understandable. Sara knew what kind of guy Oliver was when she hooked up with him, she knew what she getting into and didn't blame Oliver for what happened, she knew she was at fault too. I can't imagine with the personalities they've shown us if the roles were reversed that Laurel would've acted the same way. The Laurel they've shown us would've blamed Oliver for everything that happened after the Gambit sank, just like she blamed the Arrow for Tommy's death and Sara for ruining her life first by drowning, then by not drowning. 

 

Yes, Laurel's reactions are believable but don't show me Sara that always takes full responsibility for her problems and expect me to think Laurel's the better person.  

[Password]

[*]She was mad at Sara when she came back. Instead of being happy that she finally got Sara back, she threw a glass at her and told her to get out because Laurel could only focus on taking Oliver away from her. 

I'm going to go ahead and throw a cat among the pigeons and say I liked this point, because I believed and enjoyed Laurel and KC in the scene. What Sara and Oliver did behind her back was horrible, and her placing the blame on her entire life going to doo doo on Sara was something I could believe of her to do. I actually hoped the writers would let Laurel stew on this for longer.

I think the point made about Laurels ice cold reception of Oliver in s1 ep1, and her about face the next episode, is a good example of the writers not knowing what they're doing with her. If she carried on hating Oliver for the whole season , and ironically liking the vigilante, I would have applauded her. I didn't like that she was so up and down. If you hate or dislike someone stay away from them. Full stop.

[wonderwall]

The second half of season 2, I was actually trying to be empathetic towards Laurel because I knew that she wasn't going anywhere. I guess if I were to put myself in Laurel's shoes, yeah I would be pissed, but I wouldn't try to physically harm my sister. Idk, if I loved my sister as much as Laurel says she loves Sara, then I would NEVER throw anything at her. I guess Laurel was never made to empathize with...

[bluebonnet]

I agree with that somewhat, ArrowLimbo.  I have wondered if the writers were intending to portray the trauma the family feels when a 'wounded warrior' or presumed dead relative returns home, in the same way they protrayed it with Thea.  It rang truer with Thea because it didn't come out of nowhere.  There was a bit of whiplash with Laurel because 24 hours previously, she was sitting in a hospital bed talking super happy things about Sara.  I guess there's a chance she was supposed to be high or something since she was allegedy an addict and was also poisoned, though I can't tell if she was meant to be stoned.  I didn't really have much of a problem with Laurel's anger because it was justified.  Her sister had been alive all this time while the family had been grieving and had broken up.  I didn't even mind the glass throwing because I have sisters and while we might be best friends, we've still thrown down a time or two.  It was just the whiplash of it all with a previous scene.  It didn't make sense after what they had already showed us. 

[Sakura12]

Had they found Sara just wondering around town and no one was harmed. I would've been fine with Laurel's reaction but that is not what happened. Laurel knew she was poisoned and knew that her mother was kidnapped by an assassin that was after Sara.

 

I would think having an assassin after you is a pretty good reason for not telling anyone you were alive. 

 

There is also the fact that Laurel apparently didn't ask Sara any questions about her time away since she was surprised that her sister has scars similar to soldiers injured at war. She apparently thought Sara was sipping mai tais on a beach enjoying herself. I also guess that's where she thinks Sara's going back too as well. 

Edited May 26, 2014 by Sakura12

[Zalyn]

There is also the fact that Laurel apparently didn't ask Sara any questions about her time away since she was surprised that her sister has scars similar to soldiers injured at war. She apparently thought Sara was sipping mai tai's on a beach enjoying herself. I also guess that's where she think Sara's going back too as well. 

I have a distinct dislike for drama that relies on a complete lack of reasonable communication between people - Korean dramas are notorious for this.  "Why don't you just TELL THEM XYZ???" is what I end up yelling at the TV all too often. In this case, to at least see Laurel asking and Sara refusing (because of her guilt and self loathing at being an assassin - easily communicated in a short convo with Oliver or Felicity or Diggle) would show us Laurel's Big Sister concern and a plausible reason for there not being open communications going on. 

 

And you definitely don't need a cool leather jacket while on the beach; sand and spilled mai tais aren't good for the leather, after all. :)

[Sakura12]

I have a distinct dislike for drama that relies on a complete lack of reasonable communication between people - Korean dramas are notorious for this.  "Why don't you just TELL THEM XYZ???" is what I end up yelling at the TV all too often. In this case, to at least see Laurel asking and Sara refusing (because of her guilt and self loathing at being an assassin - easily communicated in a short convo with Oliver or Felicity or Diggle) would show us Laurel's Big Sister concern and a plausible reason for there not being open communications going on. 

 

And you definitely don't need a cool leather jacket while on the beach; sand and spilled mai tais aren't good for the leather, after all. :)

See, if they had let Laurel think that Sara was going on cruise with her former girlfriend (I'd still think Laurel's an idiot) but I'd accept her smiling like loon as ignorance instead of her being a selfish tool. 

 

They had the scene were Laurel was told her sister went through horrific traumas by an extra chatty doctor, she asked about them, then dropped it and ran out of the room to realize her sister was the other vigilante with Arrow (whom she was told that by an extra chatty Slade) and instead of talking to her sister about it she went to tell Oliver how much she knows him better than anyone else in the world. However in the real world, Laurel is behind, Moira, Sara, Diggle, Felicity, Roy, Barry Allen, Amanda Waller, Lyla, Anatoli, Slade, Malcolm Merlyn, Tommy, and probably Diggle's unborn child, in knowing Oliver. 

[fantique]

I loved Arrow from the beginning, the second season got even better after that crazy season 1 finale, which I thought was impossible. The huge anchor dragging this show down is one miss Laurel Lance. Full disclosure, liked her for about a bit of the 1st few episodes and then she just grated on my nerves for all the reasons exposed earlier. I am jsut wondering what went wrong... First I thought; the writing. BUT how can they be moderately strong to amazing in character development in only 2 seasons for all the other characters (even Roy who annoys some people had changes and attempts to redeem him) but her. They either have a huge blind spot or they have a plan we don't know about. It honestly felt like they were setting her up to be the death that affects Ollie but relieves the fans. She got worse and worse and the clumsy attempts to shove her "greatness" down our throats were too heavy handed.

Idk much abour KC, both the other shows I have seen her on were SPN and GG. She only worked for me when she was antagonistic. At least I could think she was cunning in SPN. In GG, it felt like she was meant to be sympathetic but they realised she annoyed and underwhelmed viewers and they got rid of her OR the end game was always to have her for a short time.
It feels like she relies on the comics. There are 2 ways to go with an adaptation; completely branch off, use the script and whatever you get from the creators and writing team OR get as much of source material as possible and ID key features to play up. She can't cite it as security but never do any research on it. Also, she doesn't even have the excuse of not having worked on a sci-fi/fantasy show with a strong fan base. I mean she was on freaking SUPERNATURAL which is pretty much a baptism of fire for a female character that could potentially be a love interest.

 

Getting to what KILLED me. The Passing of The Jacket. Really? Why (;()? Everyone else earned their "hero cape". Her being BC is stupid (at this point). Unless they show 3+ seasons of her getting trained hardcore and show that she is ok with doing real sacrifices not just beautiful speeches about helping the disenfranchised, THEN talk to me about her being BC. It's besides the point of liking her or not (though it does sway you), it would be a huge inconsistency. Or inject her with some serum. If most of us still can't stand her, well then say the side affects are killing her and it will be great acting opportunity for SA and PB for season 3 finale. Or make her a villain...

Edited May 26, 2014 by fantique

[Password]

I loved Arrow from the beginning, the second season got even better after that crazy season 1 finale, which I thought was impossible. The huge anchor dragging this show down is one miss Laurel Lance. Full disclosure, liked her for about a bit of the 1st few episodes and then she just grated on my nerves for all the reasons exposed earlier. I am jsut wondering what went wrong...

Or inject her with some serum. If most of us still can't stand her, well then say the side affects are killing her and it will be great acting opportunity for SA and PB for season 3 finale. Or make her a villain...

It was the same for me in the first season. The first few episodes I was fine with Laurel and on board with the OTP. Then something very weird happened in episode 4 and she just started annoying me. Perhaps it seemed like she became a weaker character with her interactions with Oliver. What I liked about the last 2 episodes of s2 was the lack of interaction between Oliver and Laurel. I can root for her when she's concerned with her family and her sister. As soon as you put Oliver in the same room as her, and forbid it, Sara, everything becomes awkward and I switch off.

The serum bit would have been an interesting way to write Laurel off in the second season. Maybe it's a little too late because no one has serum, unless you meant a serum other than Mirakuru.

[fantique]

 

Maybe it's a little too late because no one has serum, unless you meant a serum other than Mirakuru.

Yeah I meant another one. Because they would never give her the Mirakuru. By inject her I mean some kind of freak accdident where (weird and completely unfounded speculation) a crazy doctor decides to inject a patient of his with something and she is a perfect genetic guinea-pig. Not team Arrow being all 'We are going to turn you into one of us via IV drip !!'. Doesn't have to be a serum either... Basically just a prolonged threat of death. If her dying slowly is still not cause for our sympathy well she seriously needs to go.

[Password]

Oh no if she was going to die I would definitely tune in for that...as sadistic as that sounds.

[catrox14]

I remain disappointed that Laurel was not being low-dosed with Mirakuru all season. I kept thinking(hoping) that would explain all her erratic behavior and her even more peculiar expressions than what the scene warranted like the shit-eating grin when Sara was going off to do more assassinating and stuff and probably dying sooner rather than later.

Edited May 26, 2014 by catrox14

[fantique]

ROTFL ｡ﾟ(TヮT)ﾟ｡ But seriously though, hear hear!

I would probably be dancing around a bonfire if she died. I would also demand that every single moment of her death is before our eyes to make sure she doesn't come back. Like from the dying breath, to the morgue to the funeral home where she is incinerated. No escape to have her come back. Even as evil it would be annoying bitching or a redemption attempt.