Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[calliope1975]

The Laurel in the Lair scene is when I finally wrote off her character. I tried over and over to give her the benefit of the doubt and try to see things from her perspective, but when she dismissed, as I saw it, the two people who've managed to keep Oliver alive and sane at the cost of their own lives (physically and personally,) I was done. 

 

And I also think that scene could have played differently with a change in tone or expression, but it is what it is.

Edited September 12, 2014 by calliope1975

[statsgirl]

Laurel acted entitled all through the scene. And while there is an argument to be made that she's known Oliver the longest, as a member of the audience I have more affiliation with Diggle and Felicity and feel that they have more of a right to be in on any Arrow conversation.

 

 the two people who've managed to keep Oliver alive and sane at the cost of their own lives (physically and personally,) 

Yes, that's it.  Maybe Laurel didn't know everything that  Diggle and Felicity had done or how close their association with Oliver was but she shouldn't have dismissed them as she did.

 

Like the jacket scene, the problem is the way KC played it and that the director let her.

[TanyaKay]

Laurel acted entitled all through the scene. And while there is an argument to be made that she's known Oliver the longest, as a member of the audience I have more affiliation with Diggle and Felicity and feel that they have more of a right to be in on any Arrow conversation.

 

Yes, that's it.  Maybe Laurel didn't know everything that  Diggle and Felicity had done or how close their association with Oliver was but she shouldn't have dismissed them as she did.

 

 

I don't buy that .... just the fact that Oliver willing brought those two people into his secret and has been working with them for a couple of years (surely Laurel has spotted both Diggle and Felicity around Oliver multiple times, often talking in hushed tones) should've made it clear that those two are important to Oliver, but then this is Laurel played by Katie Cassidy, subtlety and intuition are not the strongest suits of the character.

[pootlus]

Well, gosh, that gif is really unfortunate, she definitely looks like she wants to eat the Canary.

 

I'm inclined to give Cassidy a bit of slack here, though (and I don't normally, as you all probably know) - her line delivery and general body language were fine in this sequence.  I put the facial expression down to the unfortunate fact that she doesn't seem to have much movement in her face so is only capable of a limited range of expressions.  Someone needs to tell her that she's a stunningly beautiful young woman and does not need to botox her face.

[statsgirl]

I think Katie Cassidy looks her best when she's at rest like an Old World madonna, she's quite beautiful like that.  Unfortunately it doesn't translate into ease of being in the scene.

 

 

 just the fact that Oliver willing brought those two people into his secret and has been working with them for a couple of years (surely Laurel has spotted both Diggle and Felicity around Oliver multiple times, often talking in hushed tones) should've made it clear that those two are important to Oliver,

 

 

Laurel shut down Sara when Sara tried to tell her that Oliver wasn't ready to move in together because he was cheating on her, and she thought that Oliver would be bothered by her moving on with Tommy.

 

Diggle and Felicity worked for Oliver, by Laurel's reckoning, .but she, Laurel, was the love of his life.   She even referred to them as 'associates' rather than friends or partners.  Felicity is just his EA that he could have fired to give Laurel her job.

[wingster55]

I just don't see any condescension or dismissal from her.

[wonderwall]

I guess it's all about perception. Some people didn't have a problem with that scene, some did *shrugs* 

 

I personally saw it as Laurel being dismissal, but appreciate that you don't. I just didn't like the fact that it was Felicity and Digg who invited Laurel into the lair to help Oliver only for Laurel to essentially want to talk to Oliver alone even though she didn't have anything extremely personal to say. Laurel knew that Digg and Felicity were his partners, she knew that they were insanely worried about Oliver, so imo she should've seemed less businesslike, and more compassionate or concerned or even reluctant when she asked them for some time alone with Oliver. I would've liked it more if Laurel, Digg, and Felicity tag teamed in order to get Oliver out of his rut and help him see that Slade's attack was bigger than what Oliver thought. 

 

I guess in a sense, that scene showed me that maybe Laurel won't gel well with the team because she wasn't interested in working with Digg and felicity to knock some sense into Oliver. And then to top it all off, Laurel then wanted to take over Felicity's job like it was her right because of her history with Oliver and how she knows him like she knows her own name... I guess it showed me that Laurel isn't a team player. And that bothered me considering we all know she's going to be making a lot more appearances in the foundry... 

Edited September 13, 2014 by wonderwall

[Chaser]

I didn't want Laurel in on Team Arrow and I didn't want Laurel in The Foundry. I freely admit that probably colored my reading of the scene; It's what happens when you don't like a character.

[Starfish35]

Honestly, I would have to watch that scene again to say whether I thought she was being dismissive or not. I was so annoyed by what came after that ("I know you like I know my own name", "I know who you are in your bones") - that I didn't give a lot of thought to it. I was too busy going "you do NOT, shut UP Laurel SHUT UP!"

Also I thought the "but not them?" line came across very badly. Seriously Laurel?

However, in fairness I do have to say that I give Laurel props for bringing up Thea to Oliver. In that one moment I was cheering her on - preach it sister! (Seriously, how Oliver treated Thea was appalling.) But then she started in on the "I know you like I know my own name" business and all momentary goodwill was instantly gone.

And why ever did Oliver just take her word for it about Blood, like, instantly, considering their history on that subject? It would have made more sense for her to show her proof to Diggle and Felicity and then have the three of them show it to Oliver. But no, they had to force her into this scene to make this dramatic speech even though it makes no sense whatsoever. (I actually do have a theory about why, but it's more to do with the Oliver/Laurel pairing and off topic here.)

Edited September 13, 2014 by Starfish35

[wonderwall]

Did you also notice how Laurel said the word "partners"? She sounded bitter, thus, making me dislike her even being around the foundry even more. It went well with her dismissing Digg and Felicity because it further emphasized how she didn't want them there when she talked to Oliver. 

Edited September 13, 2014 by wonderwall

[Starfish35]

I need to watch it again, but honestly I don't remember that standing out to me? The whole scene was just bizarre, from entrance to end, and I was just so infuriated by the whole "I know you" stuff that I probably blanked on it. Not saying people who saw it that way are wrong, but...I just don't remember.

[wonderwall]

I need to watch it again, but honestly I don't remember that standing out to me? The whole scene was just bizarre, from entrance to end, and I was just so infuriated by the whole "I know you" stuff that I probably blanked on it. Not saying people who saw it that way are wrong, but...I just don't remember.

You should give it a go, because she sounded kind of bitter. It ties well with "but not them" part as well. 

Edited September 13, 2014 by wonderwall

[willpwr]

I don't know about bitter, she did seem a bit judgmental though due to her emphasis on the word "partners" and the way she looked at them plus Felicity's and Diggle's reactions. Then when she asked them to leave, she stared at them until they left and then walked up to where the Arrow costume is and stared blankly at it. What I got from it was that she seemed very self-aggrandizing from the way she stood at the beginning and said "Slade Wilson", to her slowly walking towards Oliver, her odd phrasing at the start. It was just weird. 

[Starfish35]

I'll totally agree that the whole scene was weird, in a very bad way. I guess different parts just stood out to me.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Starfish35

[wingster55]

Then when she asked them to leave, she stared at them until they left

 

I mean...isn't that what you do when you want someone to leave? Look at them until they're gone?

[Chaser]

The most memorable parts of that whole Foundry scene: "I know you like I know my own name" and Diggle's expression when she tried to follow.

 

Diggle is Arrows equivalent of Jim from The Office. 

[BkWurm1]

I rewatched it the same day I watched it for the first time.  I thought it could not be as bad as I remembered but the second time through was when I realized in addition to choking on saying the word partners like it was galling to admit and pretty much flatly dismissing Felicity and Diggle like they were the help, she'd also literally maneuvered Felicity away from Oliver and took her spot.

 

I was floored before she ever started on her "in her bones" speech. 

 

It was the last think I was looking for but boy oh boy did it hit me over the head. 

[catrox14]

 

The blocking though really did her characters no favors. To show her physically placing herself between Oliver and Diggle/Felicity was a bad call.

 

I'm not entirely convinced it was a bad call. I think it was intentional to show thatLaurel did think of herself as being between Oliver and Team Arrow. I think we were meant to give that a sideeye

 

I

mean...isn't that what you do when you want someone to leave? Look at them until they're gone?

 

 

Sure if you think you own the space and are rude.  If they wanted me to feel sympathy for Laurel, she needed to be deferrential and polite to Team Arrow as it was on their turf.  I absolutely can see her thinking that was her turf too now because of Oliver. I mean this is the woman that blackmailed her way back into her job.  I don't think Laurel gets the concept of diplomacy, tact or boundaries.  She was totally trying to throw her weight around IMO.

 

So because of all that, I would much prefer that just make her a bitchy villain and run with it. But don't try to sell me that she is a good-doer with a heart of gold. NOPE.

Edited September 13, 2014 by catrox14

[willpwr]

I mean...isn't that what you do when you want someone to leave? Look at them until they're gone?

Personally, I say "please" and "thank you" when I ask people to leave and don't give them a death stare but to each their own. :) Honestly, I don't stare at people until they leave, I don't think it's necessary, seems rude IMO.

[wingster55]

Ok sure..you say please and thank you. I get that, and I do..but how would you know they're gone unless you're looking? 

[Chaser]

I can't wait for new scenes to over-anaylze.  That's going to be fun

[wingster55]

Sarcasm 

/Sheldon

[BkWurm1]

I mean...isn't that what you do when you want someone to leave? Look at them until they're gone?

 

If I'm mad at the looky loos I would, otherwise I'm more likely to make the request and glance away, embarrassed by all the stuff that is probably going on in the heads of the people watching me.  If I'd been where Laurel was, (about to make a desperate pitch to Oliver to keep him from sacrificing himself) I would be looking to them for last second support and encouragement. 

[catrox14]

 

Ok sure..you say please and thank you. I get that, and I do..but how would you know they're gone unless you're looking?

 

When you hear them walk out of the room? It's not like they were tiptoeing. There is a difference between waiting and watching for someone to leave and staring someone down to compel them to acquiesce to a demand, the latter is what I think Laurel did.

[wonderwall]

Ok sure..you say please and thank you. I get that, and I do..but how would you know theyLore gone unless you're looking? 

You should try watching that scene again maybe? IDK After I saw the scene the first time, I watched it again like @willpwr because it couldn't have been as bad as I thought it was... Then I did, and it just was.

 

Looking is the operative word you used. What Laurel did wasn't looking, it was more like staring down at Felicity and Digg until they left. It made Laurel look bossy in a place where she shouldn't look bossy at all. 

Edited September 13, 2014 by wonderwall

[willpwr]

I might give a quick glance after a couple minutes to make sure they left but I wouldn't stare, that makes people uncomfortable and t's really a respect issue for me. Staring someone down is kind of like trying to dominate them IMO, I know not everyone sees it the same way, it's just what I was taught.

[Chaser]

@ Wingster55: Bazinga :-)

 

I re-watched the scene. Opinion hasn't changed; still hate it. But to each their own, and I officialy think it's a dead horse. Total glue at this point.

[willpwr]

Well, I was being polite by saying she "looked" instead of stared. :)

[Sakura12]

I don't even get why Felicity and Dig had to leave in the first place. What she was saying wasn't private and being that they are the Arrow's team learning about Blood's true nature concerns them as well. Felicity didn't ask Diggle to leave when she gave Oliver an even better motivational speech after that. 

 

So Laurel dismissing them also made it seem like she didn't feel they were important to Oliver and his mission. She knew they were with him since she contacted them. Shooing them away so she could pretend she knows Oliver better than anyone just makes her look more like an a-hole. 

 

Also I still wish the whole Blood thing had stayed Teen Arrow's mission. I would rather have had Sin rush in the lair and tell Oliver about Blood while simultaneously introducing herself as Sara's friend, who was told by Sara to contact Felicity Smoak if she ever needed help. That would've involved Sin more since she was actually more involved with the show than Laurel even with her limited screen time. 

Edited September 13, 2014 by Sakura12

[wingster55]

Looking is the operative word you used. What Laurel did wasn't looking, it was more like staring down at Felicity and Digg until they left. It made Laurel look bossy in a place where she shouldn't look bossy at all.

 

It's on the rewatch list so next week likely. 

When you hear them walk out of the room?

 

Fair enough.

[wonderwall]

You have your 'work' cut out for you @wingster55! :p I'm almost done with my rewatch, I legit just finished S02E21 :)

[Starfish35]

I'm not entirely convinced it was a bad call. I think it was intentional to show thatLaurel did think of herself as being between Oliver and Team Arrow. I think we were meant to give that a sideeye

Replying in Relationships thread.

[wingster55]

My rewatch is a bit random and not a full one. Eps from both s1 and 2 :)

 

From earlier: 

I don't want to be argumentative but how could Tommy have helped the crusade?

 

Field work? Infiltrated places Diggle and Felicity couldn't have gone not being 1%ers?

Or could have been Oliver's go to guy for getting away from Arrow life (which is something I think he needs..but they killed him and Moira off)

I should take this to the Tommy thread.

 

...do we have a Tommy thread?

[wonderwall]

I actually think Tommy could've taken Felicity's role as the person who Oliver could open up to...

 

Damn Laurel. I say that because after Laurel slept with Oliver I don't think Tommy could've ever been as close to Oliver as he was before if he did make it out alive. :/ 

[Chaser]

Reply in the Relationship Thread

[wingster55]

Me too

[statsgirl]

In the Arrow cave..... I think if KC had played Laurel as appreciating Diggle and Felicity for having Oliver's back when he's the Arrow, and when she asked for a moment alone with him, she didn't stare at them to make sure they left the room, it would have seemed less like Lady Bountiful and more like a team player.

 

replying to the rest on the Relationship thread

[icandigit]

That scene was so weird. She came off judgmental  but, for no reason. Why did she have a judgmental tone? It didn't fit the plot. It was like she was a parent who found out they were doing something wrong. You guys are in trouble now. But my favorite Laurel gems will always be her staring off into the distance saying go save the city and her crazy eyes she had when hunting the arrow.

 

I should be rooting for things to get better, but part of the fun is waiting for what crazy acting/directing choice would come next. You'll be watching a scene and then all of of a sudden your like WTH?  I don't know if I've ever experienced anything so jarring. Or maybe it's been a long time.

 

They can't be serious at this point. They are just playing these moments for laughs, right?

Edited September 14, 2014 by icandigit

[foreverevolving]

I might give a quick glance after a couple minutes to make sure they left but I wouldn't stare, that makes people uncomfortable and t's really a respect issue for me. Staring someone down is kind of like trying to dominate them IMO, I know not everyone sees it the same way, it's just what I was taught.

Totally off topic: do you by any chance have or had cats?

trust me there's a reason i'm asking.

 

ETA: i envy you all for having time to do a rewatch. my time is already filled with classes and projects and 50 pages articles to read. ugh.

Edited September 14, 2014 by foreverevolving

[Starfish35]

Totally off topic: do you by any chance have or had cats?

trust me there's a reason i'm asking.

Ahahahaha laughing forever. (I do have cats.)

Edited September 14, 2014 by Starfish35

[willpwr]

Totally off topic: do you by any chance have or had cats?

trust me there's a reason i'm asking.

 

ETA: i envy you all for having time to do a rewatch. my time is already filled with classes and projects and 50 pages articles to read. ugh.

I've never had a cat, have always had dogs. 

 

The scenes are funnier on rewatch, thinking of starting a drinking game for every awkward Laurel scene. I might die of alcohol poisoning, though, maybe I'll do x amount of exercise instead.

[foreverevolving]

I've never had a cat, have always had dogs. 

Never mind than.. you ruined my theory.

Every cat owner knows you never stare at your cat without blinking slowly. in cat body language staring means challenging, it means you're out for a fight.

I was gonna go all pop - animalistic psychology that we are like our pets, with my theory... but, never mind. that theory has gone all bye bye.

[willpwr]

Never mind than.. you ruined my theory.

Every cat owner knows you never stare at your cat without blinking slowly. in cat body language staring means challenging, it means you're out for a fight.

I was gonna go all pop - animalistic psychology that we are like our pets, with my theory... but, never mind. that theory has gone all bye bye.

It's actually the same with dogs, it's the way the alpha establishes dominance so your theory would be correct. It's probably why a few people theorized it was Laurel's way of establishing dominance.

[wonderwall]

Are we really projecting cat/dog behavior onto Laurel? :P 

 

Nice. 

[Starfish35]

Lol - I thought this was going in a different direction, the cat stare down of smug superiority. :D

[Sakura12]

Laurel's speech about knowing Oliver better than anyone is a joke. She never once thought Oliver could be the Hood, even Quentin came to that conclusion pretty early on. The only reason he dropped it was because Oliver had Dig pose as him while Quentin was with him.  She didn't even recognize her own sister. Which again, Quentin figured out who Sara was without even seeing her in the Canary outfit. 

 

Why are we supposed to see Laurel as the smart one?

 

Sara's been shown to be smarter than Laurel, she knew that Oliver was a cheating manwhore that cheated on Laurel with a bunch of different women before her. She knew that the man running around the city in green hood was Oliver without even being in the city. 

 

Then we have her dismissal of Felicity and Dig as the help. So what they have shown us over and over again is that Laurel most often only thinks of Laurel, so she doesn't see anything or anyone right in front of her. Which is probably why I think her "Am I me or am I Sara" is mostly her wanting to have the adoration Sara has. What a great hero she's going to make. 

Edited September 14, 2014 by Sakura12

[foreverevolving]

Lol - I thought this was going in a different direction, the cat stare down of smug superiority. :D

your comment made me snort-laughed (which made me happy i wasn't sipping my tea). but yea, that works too! actually one of my cats is giving me that exact stare right now- i guess she doesn't thinking snort-laughing is very becoming :-P

 

@wondrwall -you know, If the shoe fits... and all that jazz.

Edited September 14, 2014 by foreverevolving

[blixie]

I'm re-watching S1 and feel even more strongly that the writing of Laurel, and Laurel and Oliver is some of the most GOD AWFUL storytelling I have ever seen in my entire life. I think Damages is a great example: Laurel tells Oliver they can never be together, but we don't know WHY Laurel believes they can never be together. We know Oliver thinks telling her he's fucked up is enough of a reason, and that he's a ninja manipulator of a woman he hasn't seen in five years, but we still know diddly shit about her reasons for NEVER being with Oliver. We also don't know if she thinks he's the vigilante or not. Her NEVER be together line makes sense much more if she gets that he IS the Hood, as that is an abject demonstration of his too fucked up for her morals/ethics thing. I thought Katie played it as if she did know he was the Hood but it's clear the writers did not intend for her to "know" at all, except for how a season later, when all of a sudden, only after the damn villain clues her in, she knows him in her bones. It's like they wanted to feed the audience stupid pills, mmm the stupid is DELICIOUS.

 

SMDH. While I don't think her chemistry with SA is terrible or anything, she's so much better with Colin and Tommy, and that makes a lot of sense even character wise, she and Tommy know each other better than either knows the Oliver who came back from the island.

[wingster55]

she knew that Oliver was a cheating manwhore that cheated on Laurel with a bunch of different women before her.

 

Yet she went on the boat. Ok

 

It's possible Laurel did actually know he was the hood..hence her lack of surprise imo when Slade told her. 

[Starfish35]

I think the "lack of surprise" was simply poor acting on KC's part. I'm pretty sure we were supposed to think she was absolutely stunned.