Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[Morrigan2575]

I can recall episode 12 where everyone was acting like an idiot to make Laurel look like the smartest person in the room when she was going after Blood. I mean uber hacker Felicity was outsmarted by some random security guy?

 

It was actually 2.11 (Blind Spot) but yeah everyone was made to look like a giant tool in order to make Laurel look good.

[iluv2fly]

I really can't think of anything they could do with Laurel next season that will change how I feel now. Bad writing has been compounded by (at best) mediocre acting. I've never actually seen KC in anything else - I've never heard of her before Arrow - but I agree with others here that the way KC portrays Laurel is a big part of the problem. After 2 seasons, I doubt her portrayal will change even if the writing improves. Since BC started out in The Flash universe, I'm sort of hoping they'll send her over there and then teleport her into the future -I can dream, right?

New here, but have been following along from time to time. I saw this post though and had to comment because I flat out agree.

Going back to season 1 I never liked the character, but managed to block her from my mind. I almost didn't watch season 2, but once I saw they were focused on Team Arrow, I was in. The back half of 2 turned into an absolute struggle for me though. To be honest, by the time we reached the end, I was CONVINCED they were pulling a Joss Whedon (giving L everything in such an OTT fashion) that I was positive they were going to kill her off. Imagine my disappointment.

I cannot for the life of me figure out their insistence in keeping the character around and because of this I have moved from apathy with the character to absolute dislike. I am robbed of my viewing enjoyment when she comes onscreen.

If they go so far as to put her on the team (lower case 't' in this instance) and in the Lair, I will be out. It's a shame, because I love the show and the dynamics of the rest of the cast, but honestly see nothing else that can be done with her.

I have loved reading everyone's posts, some brilliant points have been made!

[tv echo]

Just like the newest version of the comics where Green Arrow and Black Canary don't even know each other and she has no children.

Unfortunately, we're stuck with an EP - Andrew Kreisberg - who actually wrote a series of DC Comics graphic novels featuring Green Arrow and Black Canary, including one in which GA (Ollie) proposes to BC (Dinah):

 

http://www.amazon.com/Green-Arrow-Black-Canary-Game/dp/1401227090/ref=pd_sim_b_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=17YCZ6YHCK2NHF4MGQ5C

 

So that's the universe that AK is probably going to have the tv show exist in...

Edited June 27, 2014 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

Unfortunately, we're stuck with an EP - Andrew Kreisberg - who actually wrote a series of DC Comics graphic novels featuring Green Arrow and Black Canary, including one in which GA (Ollie) proposes to BC (Dinah):

 

http://www.amazon.com/Green-Arrow-Black-Canary-Game/dp/1401227090/ref=pd_sim_b_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=17YCZ6YHCK2NHF4MGQ5C

 

So that's the universe that AK is probably going to have the tv show exist in...

 

Those reviews, yikes. Well, now I understand why that relationship is such a monumental clusterf*ck on the show.

[dtissagirl]

Gail Simone, who is THE quintessential modern Black Canary writer, was against the Oliver/Dinah marriage for a lot of narrative reasons [and because she obviously loves Dinah way more than she likes Oliver], and she's been on record saying the entire arc hindered Dinah. She's posted about it on Tumblr a couple of years ago:
 
http://gailsimone.tumblr.com/post/38226518661/what-did-you-think-of-the-green-arrow-black-canary
 

Well, sadly, and I mean this with NO disrespect to the talented writers, I think it weakened BOTH characters.
 
I think it was done more as a stunt than an organic process. And it felt like it. I was asked to be involved, but I felt the idea damaged Black Canary’s character, and did nothing for Green Arrow.
 
I stress that this had NOTHING to do with the idea of the characters being married, I love married superheroes. It was more the nature of the characters…we had spent years building the Canary into a force of nature, a wild, untamed chick with a motorcycle and the moves of a master martial artist.  In GA/BC, despite the best efforts of everyone, she seemed to end up as a hostage, or a wet blanket fairly often.

Green Arrow wasn’t really helped by the pairing…he has always worked best when he is driven, when he’s doing the Robin Hood thing. Adding Canary sort of unbalanced him a little.
 
I thought there were a lot of things that worked, the stuff with Mia could be absolutely wonderful at times.

I know people will disagree but both books suffered, it just didn’t work, and sales went down on GA considerably and pretty soon it all had to be undone.

When you do these things, they can be wonderful but they have to be done with care, there has to be a vision that works. There was a lot of good stuff in the series but I don’t think we ever saw a reason why these two were married and what it brought to the stories.

And a more recent post, milder in tone, but still making the same point:

http://gailsimone.tumblr.com/post/75707852029/greatrhodeybooty-i-heard-a-thing-that-greatly
 

I thought the Green Arrow/Black Canary wedding was a bad idea for a number of reasons. I was asked if I wanted to write the book, and I turned it down. That was the extent of my involvement. Once they were married in canon, it was a settled issue for me and I treated it as canon.

I had absolutely no involvement with the book at any point, and was not even aware they were breaking up until it happened. It came as a complete surprise. Not only did I not plan it, I didn’t know about until you guys did, and found out on the Internet.

I am fine with them being together, I just didn’t like the cheating stories, the way they were told…it felt diminishing to both characters.

 

 

If Kreisberg is selling BECAUSE COMICS to Katie Cassidy solely based on his book [and I'm assuming someone has told her BECAUSE COMICS, or else why would she invoke it in that panel in Australia, and why would she think the jacket has magical powers?], then I really have no hope for Laurel whatsoever.

Edited June 27, 2014 by dancingnancy

[wonderwall]

We all know that if 'Dinah' wasn't in Laurel's name, we wouldn't even be questioning whether or not she'll be a superhero. I find it baffling that people can't look at the show as a single entity that's not attached to anything else. It's not that hard! Comic purists are getting all worked up because the show isn't going the way the comics went, and non comic purists are getting worked up because the story isn't flowing well... The latter is a legitimate reason to get worked up, the former just indicates the childishness or hard-headedness of some people.

 

And AK should realize that he isn't just trying to sell the show to comic book fans, he's trying to sell the show to non-arrow comic fans as well. The 'because comics' completely alienates an entire part of the fandom and it's quite a large one at that. I'm also sure that comic book purists would still stick around to watch the show even if it didn't mirror the comics (but I can't say the same the other way around).  I really doubt 2 million people read the GA comics, I'd say the majority are non-comic book readers (if I'm being conservative I'd say around 60% are non-comic book readers). 

 

So getting back to the point. What's Laurel's real motivation to become a superhero? How could they possibly ever go about it and make it seem natural? Do the writers actually have a plan for her? Or are the EPs just being comic fanboys and sticking to the comics for the sake of their interests and not for the sake of the actual show?

Edited June 27, 2014 by wonderwall

[iluv2fly]

We all know that if 'Dinah' wasn't in Laurel's name, we wouldn't even be questioning whether or not she'll be a superhero. I find it baffling that people can't look at the show as a single entity that's not attached to anything else. It's not that hard! Comic purists are getting all worked up because the show isn't going the way the comics went, and non comic purists are getting worked up because the story isn't flowing well... The latter is a legitimate reason to get worked up, the former just indicates the childishness or hard-headedness of some people.

 

And AK should realize that he isn't just trying to sell the show to comic book fans, he's trying to sell the show to non-arrow comic fans as well. The 'because comics' completely alienates an entire part of the fandom and it's quite a large one at that. I really doubt 2 million people read the GA novels, I'd say the majority are non-comic book readers (if I'm being conservative I'd say around 60% are non-comic book readers). 

 

So getting back to the point. What's Laurel's real motivation to become a superhero? How could they possibly ever go about it and make it seem natural?

 

It's interesting that you bring this up, because I was actually thinking of this earlier — the whole comic book universe vs TV. They do realize that the majority of TV fans are not aware of the comic book story, right? Surely they do! Hopefully LOL  And from what I understand the ONLY thing that L holds is the name and now a piece of leather. If the "name holder" were to vanish, would it impact the average viewer? From my perspective, it would only for the positive. 

 

The only motivation I question is theirs for their persistence. The show has it within their power to make a name for itself — are they going to let it, or will it be overshadowed and come to be known as the "the show that horribly miscast a role and wouldn't let it go."

 

 

 

Do the writers actually have a plan for her?

 

I will abstain as I can only think of one plan 

 

 

 

Or are the EPs just being comic fanboys and sticking to the comics for the sake of their interests and not for the sake of the actual show?

 

This is a very good question and one that I have seen asked repeatedly. Hoping S3 sheds some POSITIVE light on this.

Edited June 27, 2014 by iluv2fly

[bluebonnet]

I haven't read the comics and I don't really intend to.  Watching comic shows is my thing, not so interested in reading comics.  However, I really enjoy hearing about the comics.  I'm more and more flabbergasted to learn that BC and GA in the comics are not some OTP.  The way comic purists portray it, it's as though Dinah and Oliver have always been together and will always be together.  Now I'm discovering that they were never really together and the plan to put them together was so ill-considered that an author recused herself from it and a plan was later placed in motion to break them up.  Seriously?  How can any comic fan claim comic purism when advocating for Laurel and Oliver being together on the show?

[SonofaBiscuit]

Going back to season 1 I never liked the character, but managed to block her from my mind. I almost didn't watch season 2, but once I saw they were focused on Team Arrow, I was in. The back half of 2 turned into an absolute struggle for me though. To be honest, by the time we reached the end, I was CONVINCED they were pulling a Joss Whedon (giving L everything in such an OTT fashion) that I was positive they were going to kill her off. Imagine my disappointment.

 

 

Yeah, this sounds familiar!  In season one, I was able to just ignore Laurel, but a few episodes into season 2, I just got to the point where apathy turned to rage.  One character was managing to ruin an entire show for me, and I've never had that happen before.  I mean, there a lot of characters I don't like but I can usually manage to just ignore them.

 

I was also convinced that Laurel was going to be killed off based on several factors: Laurel being pushed into the background on the season two poster, KC being completely media silent, Laurel missing from several episodes, the blind item that said that KC was being written out of the show due to her diva behavior, the EPs talking up a four-episode Laurel arc (which I thought would be our Laurel sendoff), etc.  When KC was at New York Fashion Week and people were commenting about how blonde her hair was, I thought that she must have been killed off if they were letting her dye her hair.  Nope.  Sigh.

 

Edited because dye and die are not the same thing. Freudian slip, I guess.

Edited June 27, 2014 by SonofaBiscuit

[Starfish35]

I thought Laurel was getting killed off too, for a lot of the reasons you've mentioned. I figured they brought Sara to make sure she worked with the audience, and once they knew she was received positively, they wrote a four-episode arc for Laurel to write her out. Alas, no such luck. Laurel's "four episode arc" didn't even really end up being that much about Laurel, except for Blind Spot. 12 (can't remember the episode name) was more about Roy, Heir to the Demon was more of a Sara episode, and Time of Death was, well, just a mess.

In spite of that, I kept hoping they would kill her off in the finale, and then I adjusted my hopes downward to just keeping Sara as Black Canary and making Laurel Manhunter or something. It just didn't (and doesn't) make sense that they spent a whole season developing Sara into a character we loved, only to cast her aside in favor of a character they spent most of the season ignoring, and when not ignoring, giving some of the worst writing on the show. But nope nope and nope. :( Wrong again.

Saying that I no longer trust these writers is an understatement. For some reason I still keep hoping they'll change their mind on the Black Canary issue, but I'm not holding my breath. For now at least they seem pretty set on it.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Starfish35

[Morrigan2575]

@bluebonnet - Replying in Comics thread...think we're getting OT here.

[pootlus]

I really doubt 2 million people read the GA comics, I'd say the majority are non-comic book readers (if I'm being conservative I'd say around 60% are non-comic book readers).

I'd actually be shocked if more than about 5% of viewers had read the comics. It wouldn't surprise me to find that the vast majority of viewers don't even know that Green Arrow is a comic book character.

[poetgirl925]

Omg - how did I not know Andrew Kreisberg was responsible for my least favorite GA/BC arcs? Good grief - Arrow is actually that horrible GA/BC arc come to life on my television because someone gave a fanboy stuck on the idea of BC as sidekick/love interest creative control of the show. Honestly, if I had known that then I probably never would have watched Arrow in the first place. That explains SO MUCH about the horrible backstory and the way they've used Laurel on the show, not to mention the way the story has undermined her character. My brother was always more into GA whereas I was more into BC, but we both actually hated that arc. God it sucked. Most comic fans I knew didn't like it. I was actually really happy when Dinah left him and went back to Birds of Prey. BC was always best when she wasn't tied to GA IMO. I'm so glad Gail Simone is on record stating the problems with that story. I feel sure she, like me, is not a fan of Laurel on the show.

My friend and I are still arguing OOC behavior for Laurel. If we only look at S1 then I think her sleeping with Oliver so suddenly in the finale was OOC because the second half of the season showed that she was investing in her relationship with Tommy. She even went to Oliver to ask him to help her fix it (which I hated because women DO NOT involve exes in their current relationships unless they're playing games or trying to cause trouble.) Then Oliver suddenly wanted her and she lost all backbone and essentially rolled over for him. I lost a lot of respect for her here. But if we take the S2 flashbacks into consideration where it's clear that Laurel had a habit of turning a blind eye and taking him back after bad behavior, I'd reason it's not OOC. Stupid, yes, but not necessarily OOC. This is a lot of the problem - the CW audience is, I think, mostly women. Smart women don't do the things we see Laurel do, or if they do then they're self-aware enough to learn from their mistakes.

I also think her suddenly apologizing to Sara at the end of Time of Death was OOC. Her anger may not have been fun to watch but it was consistent with what we'd seen of her before. Had we ever seen Laurel apologize to anyone before this? Sudden forgiveness, being the only one to apologize, and later giving relationship advice to Sara and Oliver all seemed like I was watching a body-snatched version of the character. I guess if we go by what the producers say Laurel is supposed to be on paper, everything about her is OOC. The worst thing is that she really does seem to elicit OOC behavior in everyone else. Blind Spot was possibly the worst writing I've seen on the show.

[Starfish35]

Yeah, I used to blame Guggenheim for the show problems, but now I think most of the problems, at least with Laurel and Black Canary, are Kreisberg. Kreisberg always seems to be the most defensive of Laurel, Kreisberg was the one who compared Oliver and Laurel to Lois and Clark, Kreisberg is the one who seems to think that the reason Laurel isn't liked is because she hasn't put on the fishnets yet. :(

[formerlyfreedom]

@bluebonnet - Replying in Comics thread...think we're getting OT here.

 

Excellent point, @Morrigan2575! Thanks, all for following suit!

[SonofaBiscuit]

Does anyone think that it's possible that non-comic readers interpreted the jacket handoff scene differently than people who know that Laurel was the EPs intended Black Canary when this show was cast?  What I mean is, if you didn't know that Laurel was supposed to be Black Canary, could you just think, "Oh, that's nice.  Sara is leaving (to be an assassin!) so she is giving her big sister something to remember her by."  Beyond the gleeful smile, I don't remember exactly how that scene played out and I'm not sure I want to go and relive that moment to find out.  Perhaps people who don't read the comics are going to be totally confused when/if Laurel does become BC.

[Sunshine]

If you are a casual viewer, who has never read the comics and doesn't read/watch interviews and isn't on social media, you probably have no clue that the jacket hand-off meant anything.  Why would you?  I don't think there was anything to indicate LL is the destined BC.  People on social media have been debating the issue since it aired.     

Edited June 27, 2014 by Sunshine

[poetgirl925]

Does anyone think that it's possible that non-comic readers interpreted the jacket handoff scene differently than people who know that Laurel was the EPs intended Black Canary when this show was cast?  What I mean is, if you didn't know that Laurel was supposed to be Black Canary, could you just think, "Oh, that's nice.  Sara is leaving (to be an assassin!) so she is giving her big sister something to remember her by."  Beyond the gleeful smile, I don't remember exactly how that scene played out and I'm not sure I want to go and relive that moment to find out.  Perhaps people who don't read the comics are going to be totally confused when/if Laurel does become BC.

I can say with 100% certainty that at least a few people didn't read anything into that scene. I have a few friends/family members who aren't on social media and don't read comics. None of them are thinking that Laurel will be BC in S3. When I pointed out the jacket hand off to one of my friends, she thought that was written for humor because Quentin said "Don't get any ideas." So yeah - she laughed at the idea. When she started watching, she made me promise not to give her comic spoilers, so I haven't told her anything. But when I pointed out that Sara leaving meant maybe someone would need to fill her boots, she said, "But Laurel's a lawyer, not a superhero. Maybe Lyla will do it." So there you go - this is what the majority of the audience is probably thinking. The jacket scene was there as a cutesy moment for comic fans. Even I might have read it that way if not for the actress running about and seemingly confirming this is what we're getting in S3.

[Morrigan2575]

That's actually a good point, I don't know anyone who watches the show that doesn't follow comics.

 

I know that every online review I read about the finale mentioned the jacket hand-off as meaning Laurel is now Black Canary...of course the odds of any of the major TV Reviewers actually reading a comic book are slim to none...most have even less knowledge of BC/GA then I do and all I do is Google stuff or talk to fans who actually read the comics under Gail Simone or Dixon or Grell.

[poetgirl925]

I agree that most of the TV reviewers probably don't read comics. But unless they're living in a black hole wherein they don't look at Arrow related topics online or even read the comments on their own articles, they probably know Laurel's comic book destiny on the surface. And if you have that knowledge, it's a lot easier to read into that scene. Casual viewers at home may not have placed any particular importance on this because unlike Sara and Oliver and Malcolm and Roy, Laurel has never really lost anything. Tommy, yes - but it still does not compare because she went back to Oliver the first chance she got instead of continuing to try to work things out with Tommy. Other than that, she had real world losses, like her parents split up. Sara and Oliver are both alive, so she regained some things she thought she lost. With Sara, Oliver, Malcolm, and Roy, there were very specific circumstances that set them down their paths to hero or villain. I don't see how anything in S1 or S2 that could be used as a stepping stone for Laurel to BC if I'm only looking at the story. Without prior knowledge, I don't think I would ever see Laurel as a hero type.

Edited June 27, 2014 by poetgirl925

[Morrigan2575]

The TV reviewers have only this general sense and they don't really seem to read too deeply into the show vs the barest comic knowledge. Not sure if I'm explaining this right.  

 

It's like they'll talk about Laurel and how she didn't do anything in the episode and had no purpose but obviously she's got the right name and the jacket handoff will lead to her comic book destiny....because!?  Maybe it's a disconnect?  They just look up the name, say well she's going to be Black Canary and Oliver Queen's true/destined love because that's what I heard somewhere and why bother thinking too deeply about what she's like on the show because the comics say this and that's what's obviously going to happen...

 

Does that make any sense to you?

Edited June 27, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[AnyoneButYou]

I watched the season finale with my parents who are casual viewers and don't read the comics, and my parents both thought the jacket hand off meant that Sara would come back to get her jacket. I remember my dad saying, "Well, that means Sara will be back some time next season as Black Canary, right?" I told him that Laurel is BC in the comics, and my dad actually got mad at me. He was like, "That doesn't make sense!" I just shrugged. I guess the good thing for them is that they don't really care about the show. The only reason either of them watches from time to time is because they both like Felicity a lot.

[Password]

So what you guys are saying is that they're not actually OTP? They just sometimes hook up in the comics? What a riot. Hmph that just annoys me.

[bluebonnet]

The jacket passing was pretty heavy handed symbolism and I think even viewers without any knowledge of the comics would be aware that handing off an identifying piece of equipment to another character usually indicates a passing of the torch.  

[Morrigan2575]

The jacket passing was pretty heavy handed symbolism and I think even viewers without any knowledge of the comics would be aware that handing off an identifying piece of equipment to another character usually indicates a passing of the torch.

 

But it wasn't the Canary jacket was it?  I thought it was the leather jacket she wears in her street clothes. 

Edited June 27, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[apinknightmare]

But it wasn't the Canary jacket was it?  I thought it was the leather jacket she wears in her street clothes. 

 

No, it was the Canary jacket.

[Morrigan2575]

No, it was the Canary jacket.

 

I didn't realize that, I know I saw people debating if it was the Canary jacket or the leather jacket she wore with various street clothes.  Quentin's comment makes more sense now.

[apinknightmare]

I didn't realize that, I know I saw people debating if it was the Canary jacket or the leather jacket she wore with various street clothes.  Quentin's comment makes more sense now.

 

Yeah, I actually went and looked because I wanted to believe it was just a random jacket, haha.

[bluebonnet]

But it wasn't the Canary jacket was it?  I thought it was the leather jacket she wears in her street clothes. 

Def the Canary jacket.  That's why I felt such disdain for the scene because there was not a single thing that made the torch passing feel earned. Granted, I had already read on this forum that Laurel was the comic canary.  But it was talked about quite a bit in my friend circle and as far as I know, none of them read the comics.  I think it was mostly just them noticing that the writers have been pushing Laurel to the forefront for reasons they could not understand and then the passing of the jacket was like a big "wtf" moment.  And not in a good way.  

[poetgirl925]

The jacket passing was pretty heavy handed symbolism and I think even viewers without any knowledge of the comics would be aware that handing off an identifying piece of equipment to another character usually indicates a passing of the torch.

I hate to say this, but you may be right. I'm on messenger with 3 friends who are casual viewers. Two of them didn't read anything special into that scene. When I mentioned that the jacket being passed to Laurel probably means she's taking the Canary role from her sister, they were surprised. (They both think it's a terrible idea.) Basically they figured that her knowing all the secrets means she'll be helping the team but not necessarily in a hero role. One still hopes she'll be an antagonist.

It's my third friend who's worrying me. She also hates Laurel and has since the beginning of the show. But when I asked her how she felt about Laurel at the end, she said she thought Laurel got better at the end somehow. When I asked her why, she couldn't think of a specific reason, just that for some reason by the end she forgot she hated her. She said it might be because she stopped crying and knew what was going on. But she did think the jacket meant we're being forced to accept the character. She said she wants her to go evil and doesn't want to see her doing superhero stuff. But it's entirely possible that my friend represents a part of the audience who may think Laurel improved by being let in on the secret. I don't think so because we still see a lot of the character flaws from before - particularly selfishness, but some viewers may not waste a lot of time thinking about her other than 'She 's really annoying here, but she's less annoying there.' I hate to think such lazy storytelling might fix certain character complaints for some viewers, but it might.

[Ceylon5]

Okay, I can speak as someone who, until a month ago, had no idea that 'Arrow' was based on comic book characters.  I'd never heard of Green Arrow or Black Canary and just thought this was a TV show.  I kind of thought it was a nod to Robin Hood, because they mentioned him a few times (and I DO know who he is!), but didn't give it much thought one way or the other.  Anyway, I can say I totally missed that Sara was being called Canary (quite possibly I fast-forwarded the scene(s) where it was mentioned, because I find watching Laurel unbearable and often skipped scenes with her that didn't seem to be adding to the general storyline; alternatively it just meant absolutely nothing to me at the time so made no impression).  I didn't know she was meant to be a superhero any more than I knew Oliver was meant to be one; I was just taking things at face value and was interested in how their back-stories had turned them into what they are now.  

 

I can tell you that it never occurred to me for a single second that Laurel could ever do any of the physical 'superhero' type things that Oliver, Sara and few of the others do, nor has the show ever given me any reason to believe that she would ever have slightest desire to do so.  The jacket hand-off passed me by completely and even after reading all these passionate posts regarding the jacket, I honestly still don't get it.  I gather the jacket isn't actually magic, so why is it considered so significant?  I realise I've been approaching the story from the perspective that we're watching a story about how Oliver (and now, as it turns out, Sara), went through these 5-6 hellish years and that changed them from what they were into what they are, and that we're now watching how they deal with that and what they become, but I'm afraid I don't get how that relates to Laurel or clothing.  I find it very hard to believe that they're going to try to make her suddenly run about the city at night in a silly outfit beating people up and expect anyone at all to take them seriously in any way.  Granted this show requires a lot of suspension of disbelief, as do most things on TV, but the most important element of any TV universe is internal consistency.  In my opinion, they've required some pretty hectic back-stories to justify whatever 'powers' their heroes and villains have on this show, so unless they use some semi-magical short-cut like mirakuru (which in itself was a bit of a departure from the basic idea of no pain, no gain that the story gives us), they're just going to undermine their entire show premise.  Why they would bother for the most pointless, useless character ever to blot a TV-show landscape, I cannot imagine.

 

And, yes, as you may have surmised, I am not a fan of Laurel's.

[KirkB]

Nicely said, Ceylon5. I think you just very clearly expressed a lot of the issues many of us are having. Even if they do make Laurel the BC you just stated just how little sense it would make.

[Morrigan2575]

Great post Ceylon. I'm on my phone so I can't give you a thumbs up until I get home

Edited June 27, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[dtissagirl]

@Ceylon5 -- thanks for that post. I think you make it clear once again how reductive it is to make Laurel Black Canary "because comics". I've been reading A LOT of fan reaction since the finale, from all sorts of sources, pros and fans, comic geeks and not, and so far I haven't seen anyone theorizing that Laurel will become Black Canary because it fits the show's narrative. It's always the magical jacket, and/or because comics.

 

What worries me is that the actress who plays Laurel is explaining it that way, and no matter how much I hope she knows nothing and is just campaigning for BC, I also have to assume that she knows more than I do about her character's future. :/

[writersblock51]

@Ceylon5, your post was very insightful, thank you.  I've been watching the show since the pilot aired AND have a long history with the comics that I don't think I can be very objective when it comes to Laurel's characterization.

 

There are a lot of things about Laurel that bother me.  I, too, believe that if she had a non-Dinah name, none of this would be as much of an issue for the show. Or - if Sara's middle name was Dinah (which it could be, as I don't think the show has disclosed what her middle name is).

 

Unfortunately, I don't think Katie Cassidy has a firm grasp on the character either.  She doesn't strike me as someone who watches the entire episode or see it as it is aired.  Her comments about Laurel ring false or off to me most of the time. 

[statsgirl]

That's why I never got the because comics excuse. The comics are changed so often whatever happens in one is completely changed when someone else takes over. Plus there's all these alternate universes, which is how I see Arrow. In this version Oliver Queen was stranded on an island for 5 years, with Slade Wilson and Shado and Dinah Lance had two daughters instead of one and it's her thought dead youngest daughter that becomes the Black Canary instead of her. 

I get the feeling that the comics excuse is used primarily by people who haven't read the comics but just heard of them (KC), or who have only read a restricted range (i.e.AK's Green Arrow/Black Canary) version.

 

While the Black Canary was at various time Dinah Drake or Dinah Lance, am I right that it was only during AK's time of writing that she was called Dinah Laurel Lance?  So, comics!

 

 

But when I asked her how she felt about Laurel at the end, she said she thought Laurel got better at the end somehow. When I asked her why, she couldn't think of a specific reason, just that for some reason by the end she forgot she hated her.

 

Maybe because after the big arrow shooting scene, Laurel was barely there in the last episodes. It was back to Team Arrow with Roy and Sara's LoA.  The less Laurel is on, the more I like her.

 

 

The jacket hand-off passed me by completely and even after reading all these passionate posts regarding the jacket, I honestly still don't get it.  I gather the jacket isn't actually magic, so why is it considered so significant?  I

Over on the Felicity thread, there's a discussion of whether Felicity should have put the mask on Oliver, as symbolic of moving into his new role.  It could be that the EPs (not the non-comic book viewers) thought that giving Laurel the jacket was symbolic in the same way.

 

I was wondering... would Laurel's journey in s2 been enough of a crucible if KC were better fitted to the role?  It's not nearly the journey that Oliver and Sara had, of course  But losing Sara and having her parents divorce, then Tommy dying, her guilt and addiction, and losing her job and being kidnapped a number of times, is that enough of a journey to turn her into the Black Canary (even though it would have made more sense doing it after Tommy's death)?  Thea lost her brother and father, then her boyfriend tried to kill her, then she found out that Malcolm Merlyn was her father, and then her mother was murdered in front of her and presumably that's enough to start her down the path. For Roy, his mother was a drug addict, he lost  friends in the earthquake and then he was mirakurued.  Helena's father killing her boyfriend was enough for her.

 

I think it would have been better if they had started Laurel on the vigilante path after Tommy's death (maybe they didn't think KC was ready?), but now that all those things have happened to her, is that enough to set Laurel on the Black Canary path?

 

[apinknightmare]

My own opinion? If I liked Laurel at all, none of this would even matter to me. If she wanted to assume the mantle of BC while Sara was gone? I'd be down with it, regardless of what she'd been through. If I felt like she was someone I could root for, I wouldn't care that she "earned" it, I'd want it for her, because she wants it. Honestly, I think she's an a-hole. I think it's partly the fault of incredibly inconsistent writing and partly because KC just isn't the right kind of actress to portray the kind of person they're trying to *make* Laurel be. I cannot stand her around Oliver, I cannot stand Oliver around her, and even though Oliver sucks sometimes, I'm rooting for him. I want him to succeed, I want him to reach the goals he's trying to reach. I don't care what happens to her, I just want her gone. So it makes me angry that a person I can't root for and don't care about is (likely) going to be integrated into a team that I am rooting for and do care about.

 

I really wish they would make her go bad; I think I would love that. It'd fit Laurel's personality (as written on this show), and I think it would play to KC's strengths as an actress.

 

If they're not going to do that, then I don't think there's anything that can be done (IMO, for my enjoyment/satisfaction) at this point.

Edited June 28, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Starfish35]

I'm with apinknightmare. If I liked Laurel, it wouldn't matter to me whether she'd earned it or not. I don't actually subscribe to the theory that every superhero has to go through the torturous hell that Oliver and Sara did. And honestly I'm willing to hand wave a lot for a character I'm a fan of. But I just don't like Laurel. At all. And thus there is no inclination to give her any slack.

On the other hand, island/crucible experience or no, I still would want to see that Black Canary actually had the skills for the job - as Gail Simone put it, "the moves of a master martial artist." As much as I love Felicity, I wouldn't be happy if she suddenly threw on black leather and started beating up bad guys as the Canary, because there's been no inclination (the opposite in fact) that she has the training or skills for that. Laurel may have some self-defense training, but that's far from being a "master martial artist."

Edited June 28, 2014 by Starfish35

[Orion]

I get the feeling that the comics excuse is used primarily by people who haven't read the comics but just heard of them (KC), or who have only read a restricted range (i.e.AK's Green Arrow/Black Canary) version.

 

I agree with you on this. My husband and his friends, who are huge comic fans, don't understand while Laurel is still on the show. After season one their conversations were  about how great the fight scenes were and how much they wish they would replace the actress playing Laurel. At the end of Season 2 the conversation had changed to why don't they just kill her off already. When I asked them about comic canon every single one responded that this isn't the comics. My husband gave the example that there are a ton of Batman movies, they are all different with different themes - sometimes they have Robin or Batgirl or Catwoman but most don't, they go into the movie looking for a new take on the character and as long as they aren't breaking any golden rules (Superman doesn't kill, Batman doesn't use gun) then they are all for it. One of the things they were most upset about is that they made Laurel's world all about Oliver - in the comics she has her own thing going on. I think the "but comics" argument is mainly coming from KC fans or Lauriver fans who haven't read the comics but want something they support happening in the show. 

 

 

I was wondering... would Laurel's journey in s2 been enough of a crucible if KC were better fitted to the role?  It's not nearly the journey that Oliver and Sara had, of course  But losing Sara and having her parents divorce, then Tommy dying, her guilt and addiction, and losing her job and being kidnapped a number of times, is that enough of a journey to turn her into the Black Canary (even though it would have made more sense doing it after Tommy's death)?  Thea lost her brother and father, then her boyfriend tried to kill her, then she found out that Malcolm Merlyn was her father, and then her mother was murdered in front of her and presumably that's enough to start her down the path. For Roy, his mother was a drug addict, he lost  friends in the earthquake and then he was mirakurued.  Helena's father killing her boyfriend was enough for her.

 

In theory, on paper, I think what she's gone through would be enough but the problem with how they've handled her storyline is that we never got to see her being emotionally tortured about all of that. Arrow, the show, moves through story so fast that they often don't develop the emotions of their characters and I think Laurel's character has suffered the most from that (I'm still not convinced even with time and effort KC could have pulled off a more compassionate character but..). We had Laurel blaming the hood and then crying when she realized it was her fault Tommy was dead but it was only for that episode. Laurel told Oliver that the Doll Maker kidnapping was just your garden variety traumatizing experience but it was never brought up again. She told Sara that she had ruined her life but she was doing pretty well for herself with a good career, nice apartment, and in a relationship with a good guy. None of those things line up a character that can't get past the loss that happened in her past. They could have shown her crying over a photo of her sister or waking up with nightmares about Tommy dying or having to take anti-anxiety pills to leave her house after the Doll Maker. But what we've been given is a character that just shrugs stuff off and moves on with her life. Other than the addiction arc and I still have no idea why they handled that so poorly. But no they can't tell me Laurel has had a hard life and show me something different all while showing me episode after episode of Oliver and Sara and even Diggle living with their truly tortured past and slowly becoming who they are today; earning through hard work physically and emotionally the lives they are carving out for themselves and then plop Laurel down as a vigilante hero and expect me to buy it.

[bluebonnet]

I was wondering... would Laurel's journey in s2 been enough of a crucible if KC were better fitted to the role?  It's not nearly the journey that Oliver and Sara had, of course  But losing Sara and having her parents divorce, then Tommy dying, her guilt and addiction, and losing her job and being kidnapped a number of times, is that enough of a journey to turn her into the Black Canary (even though it would have made more sense doing it after Tommy's death)?  

Things might have gone a bit better if it had been clear that Laurel was on a crucible journey.  We got her immaculately dressed, in a job with the DA's office and actually doing her job, and then a few random camera focuses on glasses of wine, which we saw her holding in season 1 so it was hard to tell that we were supposed to be noticing something.  

 

We all know that there is no one way an addict looks.  On TV, especially a show on the CW were subtly isn't embraced, addicts do sort of need to look a certain way.  At the very least, they need to look different than what they were before.  Laurel needn't have looked unkempt; a little messy hair here, a little less make up there, a little wrinkle in a shirt...it goes a long way to helping tell the story.  Even after she was fired and was lounging around at home, she was still as well put together as she was when she and Oliver shared ice cream, unless shorts at home are meant to convey an unkempt appearance.  I mean, her hair was way more primped in season 2 than it was in 1, ffs!

 

Then she was doing her job.  Sure, Oliver is the hero of his show and we don't want our hero in prison.  But for crying out loud, Laurel was now working in the DA's office and it's sort of their job to put away murderers.  Before the Arrow went on hiatus, he had been killing people.  Her own father had been hunting the Hood before the Glades collapse.  The writing ended up making Laurel look like a deranged person because everyone else was all "jeezus Laurel, what the hell are you doing are you crazy" despite the fact that she was doing her job.  As a viewer, I was against Laurel because Oliver is the top hero I'm rooting for, but still, I didn't get why doing her job was being sold as something that indicated Laurel was on the brink.  And let's not forget that she was also doing her job during Moira's trial (ignoring the fact that in the real world, she would have recused herself).  

 

Those focuses on the wine glasses.  Totally stupid, especially without anything reasonable to show us Laurel was falling into addiction.  She was immaculately dressed each day, she was going to work where she did her job, she was even able to uncover Blood being bloody, and there was zero indication she was ever drunk or high.  All through season one we saw her at dinner, at parties, at the club and glasses of alcohol were in her hands so why the fuck would I think that it's something strange that glasses of alcohol are sitting on her coffee table?  On the same note, why would I think that her taking one pill would be something super dramatic?  And then the only time she actually appears drunk or stoned, it's because she's been poisoned with snake venom.  

 

Then they made the mistake of creating her crucible as a direct comparison to Helena.  They even had their scene together about talking about letting the darkness in and losing people.  The problem here is that we saw the aftermath of Helena's island, so we easily believe that she was hopelessly in love with her fiancè.  But we saw Laurel and Tommy together and, to this viewer at least, I never ever believed that Laurel loved Tommy.  What they showed me was that Laurel really loved Tommy's money and loved that Tommy kept her connected with Oliver.  It never seemed like it was actually about Tommy so her crying that she killed Tommy because she wanted to save a filing cabinet was super eye rolling for me.

 

And then, ugh, Laurel started acting out of character once she was 'sober'.  I'm talking about the blackmailing and pep talks to her sister and Oliver.  

 

Basically, I think better writing would have helped Laurel tremendously.  I am not a KC fan, but it's still hard to determine if she was miscast for the role because the writers can not figure out what role she is playing.  If she's supposed to be a "good-doer", absolutely she's miscast.  I will never believe KC in that sort of role.  But I find it very difficult to believe that Laurel is some good person anyway, because her backstory doesn't support that and what we've seen on screen half the time does't support that.  However, I could probably get on board with Laurel as sort of the cliche, corrupt, asshole DA.  I find KC believable when she's playing a jerk.  She doesn't have good command of her instrument except when it's in jerk mode.  I mean, when she went to hug Oliver in the Arrow cave, I thought she was faking it in order to stab him.  When she pep talked her sister and sent her into the burning house, I thought she was going to cackle evilly hoping Sarah came out injured.  

 

Damn, that was a long way of saying that better writing might help KC but that KC is better suited to play snarky assholes.  

[apinknightmare]

On the other hand, island/crucible experience or no, I still would want to see that Black Canary actually had the skills for the job - as Gail Simone put it, "the moves of a master martial artist."

 

Yeah, I mean...I'd want to see some training, of course, but I'd probably be a lot more lax in what I'm willing to buy, if that makes any sense. It's a show, I just want to be entertained. Laurel is an entertainment suck for me.

 

I love Arrow so much, despite all its ridiculousness - it's the only show I watch live (it's one of two shows I even watch at all), and I've said it before, but it would be so great if I could like Laurel. It would be the best to not have this low-level angst thing going on regarding her story line/presence making me not want to watch. (Warner Brothers/CW should cater to ME, obviously!)

Edited June 28, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Sunshine]

Since Laurel Lance is a "good-doer" why not show some remorse, guilt, or something over shooting a guy in the back even if it was in defense of someone else? Even cops struggle with such things.

[wonderwall]

This is quite ridiculous but does anyone else get so annoyed by Laurel/KC's clumpy eyelashes?

 

It just... ugh I can't explain it :p 

[Pyramid]

Laurel's "crucible" was so badly done she basically ended up where she started. With the notable exception of actually being closer to her dad and sister. What sort of crucible is that.?

Add in a garnish of blackmail and I'm at a complete loss as to what the writers were trying to achieve.

[dtissagirl]

This is quite ridiculous but does anyone else get so annoyed by Laurel/KC's clumpy eyelashes?

 

It just... ugh I can't explain it :p 

 

Hee. I'm a makeup geek, and I always pay attention to what the makeup artists are doing no matter what the show, but yeah, it's one extra thing that annoys me about Laurel -- how they went from "realistic for TV" looks for her in season one, to amped up "I'm a runaway model 24/7" in season two.

 

And I guess it really does add up when you dislike a character. I admit I totally cut the characters I like some slack. Thea's style is "club owner 24/7" in S2, but I love thea, and I think Willa is a wonderful actress, so I don't mind it. Moira's style is ~billionaire matriarch~ all the time, her perfectly coifed hair is basically a piece of art, but again, I love Moira and I can buy it. I'm not fond of Felicity wearing cocktail dresses to QC, but I can fanwank her overdressing as an armor to deal with being a fake executive assistent. With Laurel, it's just weird, first because of the abrupt style change from S1 to S2, but also because there are a billion lawyer TV shows out there, so WE KNOW how TV lady lawyers dress and do their makeup, and this is not it. [And also also because I don't like her.]

 

Rachel Bilson's character on Hart of Dixie is a NY doctor transplanted to a small town in Alabama, and her style is completely whacky -- two words: sequined shorts --  and it doesn't fit either a doctor or the setting, but the show itself lampshades the fact that it's a ridiculous style ALL THE TIME by mocking it. With Laurel, we're supposed to take it seriously, and I'm sitting there wondering what is that pretty shiny eyeshadow she's wearing, because I wanna wear it to go to my friend's fancy wedding.

Edited June 28, 2014 by dancingnancy

[tv echo]

But we saw Laurel and Tommy together and, to this viewer at least, I never ever believed that Laurel loved Tommy.  What they showed me was that Laurel really loved Tommy's money and loved that Tommy kept her connected with Oliver.

I always had trouble believing that Laurel deeply loved Oliver.  Given everything we've learned in the past two seasons, I find it easier to believe that she loved the money and status that would come with marrying Oliver.  When she believed that Oliver had died, she moved on to Tommy Merlyn, another rich guy from a powerful family.  Then when Oliver returned from the dead and she found out he still had feelings for her, after Tommy broke up with her, she's back to Oliver.

 

I find a lot of outfits worn by women who play lawyers and other professionals on TV to be ridiculously inappropriate for the workplace.  I recall that in one episode, Laurel was wearing a midriff-baring, sleeveless top and red pants while at work.

Edited June 28, 2014 by tv echo

[KirkB]

While Laurel does have many faults (I have not the time, space nor inclination to list them all) I never really saw being a gold digger as one of them. I mean, if money was really all she was after, why would she have hesitated to date Tommy, or to accept money when he offered to help out CNRI? She could have been asking Oliver and Tommy for gifts all the time, stuff she always wanted that her dad couldn't give her like cars and jewelry and both of them would probably have been willing to shower her with them. What I CAN see, however, is that her attraction to Oliver (and later to Tommy as well) had at least something to do with ego and status. By hanging out with/dating the billionaire boys it allowed her to show off to the other people around her. I don't doubt she cared, probably a great deal, for both of them but given what I have seen on screen nothing makes me believe she was ever deeply in love with either.

[Velocity23]

I always thought she wanted to be Moira like. I guess she didnt realize that Oliver was becoming the mirror image of his father before the island. 

[bluebonnet]

While Laurel does have many faults (I have not the time, space nor inclination to list them all) I never really saw being a gold digger as one of them. I mean, if money was really all she was after, why would she have hesitated to date Tommy, or to accept money when he offered to help out CNRI? She could have been asking Oliver and Tommy for gifts all the time, stuff she always wanted that her dad couldn't give her like cars and jewelry and both of them would probably have been willing to shower her with them. What I CAN see, however, is that her attraction to Oliver (and later to Tommy as well) had at least something to do with ego and status. By hanging out with/dating the billionaire boys it allowed her to show off to the other people around her. I don't doubt she cared, probably a great deal, for both of them but given what I have seen on screen nothing makes me believe she was ever deeply in love with either.

Yeah, I agree that gold digger is a harsh word and I use it because my rage over the character inclines me to use the harshest words possible when discussing her.  It is more ego and status.  But this is an example of how they can't figure out what sort of character Laurel is.  I mean, hesitating to accept money for the non profit org she works for was extremely self-centered.  It was all about Laurel.  Someone had to remind her that CNRI wasn't about her.  (Another example about how all of Laurel's 'ideas' are given to her, especially when it doesn't come to herself).  She's a character with multiple personalities.  I still don't know who Laurel is, though I find it more believable that she's a self-serving jerk.  I'd be totally ok with that if they kept it consistent.  

[Ceylon5]

Over on the Felicity thread, there's a discussion of whether Felicity should have put the mask on Oliver, as symbolic of moving into his new role.  It could be that the EPs (not the non-comic book viewers) thought that giving Laurel the jacket was symbolic in the same way.

Bearing in mind that I've never even seen, let alone read, any kind of superhero comic, so am coming at this from that level of ignorance...

 

I would liken these two situations to the idea of earning a degree.  Let's say I've just earned my BSc and am putting on my cap and gown for the graduation ceremony and my father comes to help me get my cap on straight.  I'm the one who has done that studying and gained that knowledge and the accomplishment is mine.  My father, however, supported and encouraged me in my journey to that point, and he is proud of what I've achieved and has a stake in my future, which is why he helps me put on my cap and shares in my happiness and I am glad that he does.  This to me is what the Felicity/Oliver mask scene most closely resembles.

 

The Sara/Laurel jacket scene is more equivalent to me taking off my cap and gown and handing them to my sister.  She isn't interested in science and will not be inspired to follow in my footsteps.  Giving her my cap and gown does not transfer my knowledge, training or accomplishments to her.  Having them won't improve her chances of getting a job or better pay (nor diminish mine).  They just give her something to carry, which I can guarantee she would resent.  In order for something to be a symbol, it must have something of substance behind it that it is symbolising.  Sara's jacket (I assume) is the symbol of what she's gone through, who she is and what she can do; its significance is specific to her.  For anyone else, it's just a jacket - it might fit and look cool, but what it stands for cannot be transferred.  At best it can inspire someone to earn the substance behind the symbolism for themselves, but that's a whole other story.

 

Now, if they intend for Laurel to go somewhere far away off-screen to train for the next 5+ years to "get her degree", then I support this move 100%.  I won't even care if they don't give us any particular reason for her to suddenly do this other than that her sister's jacket was Just So Awesome that she was Inspired!  God speed and best of luck, I say.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Ceylon5