The Villains of Once Upon a Time

[Serena]

You're just determined to crush every speck of fannish affection I have for Espenson, aren't you?  My illusions are being ripped away, post by post.  ;)

 

The impression I had when I watched it, was they were going for "This could've been a reconciliation moment if it weren't for Snow finding out right then about Regina killing all those people."    In hindsight, considering the follow-up writing, I do think we were supposed to be more annoyed at Snow in that scene, for not blindly accepting Regina.

That's the exactly the impression I got from that scene, as well. Like "look! if only Snow had not been so quick to judge poor Regina, all this could have been avoided!"

 

re: Espenson, I actually think the two things she has over Adam and Eddy are 1) she's really good with the witty lines (although she can go overboard with the same kind of snark - like, we get it, Rumple likes to make sassy remarks about stuff that will happen in the future, no need to put one in every episode) and 2) she has a little bit less of a Regina permaboner (once upon a time, she even admitted Regina is a rapist). I remmeber being very disappointed by her eps this season, though. Maybe because she was concentrating mostly on Wonderland?

[stealinghome]

In addition to dialogue, I think that Espenson has a much stronger grasp on character than the other writers in general. I often find that in an Espenson episode, everyone gets a moment to shine, even if they're only in the episode for like 2 minutes total. Moreover, they all sound different--the character voices are more distinct. I also think that Espenson has actually gotten some of the most thankless episodes to write--3x13 this season comes to mind--and goodness knows *I* wouldn't have wanted to have been assigned 'The Evil Queen.' I mean, can you imagine being tasked that episode? I would've just gone home and started in with the booze immediately.

 

But with that said, I agree she can be overrated. Like the rest of the writers on the staff, plot and logic are...not her strong suits, and she has the same permaboner for villains that the others do, even if she's more self-aware of it and less inclined to try to make her villains into big woobies.

[KingOfHearts]

 

if you could see yourself ever redeeming a villain on your show (no matter how unlikely you think it is), please, build in a good excuse for them to commit the deeds that made them a villain.

Actually, I think this might be Regina's problem in the writing department. There really is no good excuse for the things Regina has done, yet she's treated as though she has every excuse in the world. Even in the show Tin Man, Azkadellia was possessed by the wicked witch. I really wish they could have given Regina some good reason to have had two separate personalities as Tin Man had. She has really bad excuses for her behavior.

 

Dark magic should corrupt the user, causing them to become more and more monstrous the more they use it. It would explain why Rumple got so power hungry after becoming the Dark One, and why Rumple's students tend to become psychopaths. This show hasn't said that explicitly though, sadly.

 

 

In hindsight, considering the follow-up writing, I do think we were supposed to be more annoyed at Snow in that scene, for not blindly accepting Regina.

 

That moment did a lot of harm for Snow's character, unfortunately. You get scenes where Snow cheers on Regina no matter what's she done, then you have this scene where Snow contradicts herself and says Regina has no good in her. It's like the writers can't decide on Snow's stance on Regina. She either wants to ruin Regina, or save her life. It changes repeatedly for plot purposes.

Edited July 12, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

Do you think they will ever clue Regina in that Rumple killed her sister? I am torn about whether or not I want her to get even with him. I would love to see Rumple actually be accountable for something, but not at the expense of Regina's redemption.

 

I brought this over from the Regina thread, because it brought up something I hadn't really thought about, but my thoughts weren't focused solely on Regina.

 

Would Regina care that Rumple killed Zelena?  He's one of the few characters that she treats as an equal, and they've had several moments together that imply that while she's not necessarily close to Rumple, she thinks of him as important to her, and not someone she'd want to lose, and I had the impression that for Regina it was less about Zelena using her second chance, and more about Regina needing to be able to walk away and say she gave one.

 

Would Rumple be concerned about Regina's reaction if she found out?  He feels justified, and has a history of being able to--pick your word:  Manipulate?  Convince?  Persuade?--Regina into reacting the way he wanted her to react.  Plus, Rumple would be able to make the argument that he'd just spent how long being tormented by Zelena, and had had at least a part in Baelfire/Neal's death. 

 

I just can't decide how I think it would impact their relationship.  Anyone else have an opinion?

Edited July 19, 2014 by Mari

[Camera One]

Good question... I don't think they ever really showed Regina being curious about having a sister, or expressing any wish of getting to know Zelena. Of course, that's understandable considering Zelena was trying to erase her from existence. I would expect Regina to have some response, but maybe not enough to wage outright war on Rumple. I suppose they could have Regina being the one to "out" Rumple to Belle.

[Mari]

I would expect Regina to have some response, but maybe not enough to wage outright war on Rumple. I suppose they could have Regina being the one to "out" Rumple to Belle.

That would make sense.  Regina understands that would hurt Rumple, but is likely to see it as a small act of revenge. 

 

Would Rumple see it as a small act of revenge, or would he see it as the first volley in a war?

[ShadowFacts]

I don't think Rumple gives a rip about what Regina thinks about his actions and this wouldn't be any different.  The only person whose opinion he cared about was Bae.  He only superficially cares about Belle's feelings as evidenced by his continual deceptions.  So Regina's reactions won't hold much sway over him.  He  altered the surveillance video to escape any bothersome consequences, not because he didn't want Regina to think badly of him, in my opinion.  As to Regina, I think she'd be pissed off if she knew, but I don't know how pissed.  She could go ballistic, or maybe not so much since she would understand the vengeful impulse.  Then again, she isn't overflowing with empathy.  Hard to say. 

 

Regarding outing Rumple to Belle, that would be a major act of war in Rumple's mind, but maybe Regina, if she acquired the knowledge, would use it as a blackmail chip to get him to do things.  He currently has it sealed up in some kind of protection in his vault, so it will be interesting to see how the fake one gets found out.

Edited July 19, 2014 by ShadowFacts

[Camera One]

To Rumple, outing him to Belle would be outright war, since Belle is arguably the only important person to him left in the world. Though Rumple's dilemma would be, if he exacts revenge on Regina, then Belle might need an extra day getting over it.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

You know, I really don't know how Regina would (will?) feel if/when she finds out the truth. I could see her kind of enjoying the feeling that it gives her some moral superiority over Rumpel, but also being pissed because she wanted to be the one to finally off Zelena. I don't think she'll care much one way or the other about Zelena herself, though.

[KingOfHearts]

I'm a bit conflicted on this one. On one side, Regina finally gives someone a second chance, and they don't even get to use it. So her "good deed" was cut short. Regina did the "hero" thing for sparing Zelena's life, and now she won't get any fruit for it. But on the other hand, she did threaten to kill Zelena if she misbehaved, so it's not like she valued Zelena's life or anything.

 

Regina might just act like she's mad at Rumple so she can appear to be on the side of the angels. She loves that hero admiration!

.

[myril]

One thing is, what kind of reaction of Regina learning Rumple killed Zelena would make sense, even in the wonky narrative of this show. The other thing is, that a feeling tells me, they might make her go ballistic just for letting her go ballistic. It's not like they really make that much sense with Regina.

 

Rumple would probably create another sophisticated but nevertheless useless stupid big plan to take revenge, if Regina would learn what he did, tell Belle and so drive Belle to lock herself up in the library for a full weekend, where she would accidentally be trapped in the Neverending Story.

Edited July 19, 2014 by katusch

[KAOS Agent]

A more plausible reaction from Regina if she discovers the fake dagger/Zelena murder would be to use it to her advantage. This is assuming she finds out before anyone else. Regina would just love to have that little tidbit to lord over Rumpel. She wouldn't screw it up by going ballistic over the death of a woman she said she would kill herself if she didn't do exactly as Regina said. I would so desperately enjoy having the diabolical Mayor Mills come out and play. And since it's Regina v Rumpel, I don't have any moral issues with the two of them going all out. Let the best villain win! Season 1 Regina and Rumpel were excellent working with/against each other, so I'd love it if we could return to that rather than this silly "we're family" allies crap they've had going on since then (Shut up, Henry). 

[Mari]

One thing is, what kind of reaction of Regina learning Rumple killed Zelena would make sense, even in the wonky narrative of this show. The other thing is, that a feeling tells me, they might make her go ballistic just for letting her go ballistic. It's not like they really make that much sense with Regina.

 

Rumple would probably create another sophisticated but nevertheless useless stupid big plan to take revenge, if Regina would learn what he did, tell Belle and so drive Belle to lock herself up in the library for a full weekend, where she would accidentally be trapped in the Neverending Story.

You're right--Regina's reaction really does depend on which Regina Avatar they would decide to use, based on where they wanted the plot to go.  They've bounced her reactions around too much to be able to reasonably predict anything.

 

As for Rumple and the ridiculously stupid plot?  Maybe.  But most of his eviling has been simpler, and more direct.  I think the Stupid Curse Plot got so ridiculously complicated because Rumple was obsessed with fulfilling the prophecy he saw.  (I'd be for it, however, it your Neverending Story plan worked out, and we wouldn't have to watch Neverending Story in the show.)

 

 

 

I'm a bit conflicted on this one. On one side, Regina finally gives someone a second chance, and they don't even get to use it. So her "good deed" was cut short. Regina did the "hero" thing for sparing Zelena's life, and now she won't get any fruit for it. But on the other hand, she did threaten to kill Zelena if she misbehaved, so it's not like she valued Zelena's life or anything.

 

Regina might just act like she's mad at Rumple so she can appear to be on the side of the angels. She loves that hero admiration!

.

The impression I had from the dialogue and body language is that Regina could give a flying Fig Newton over Zelena being around.  It was less about Zelena actually having that second chance, and more about Regina being able to say "See?  I gave her a second chance.  I'm awwwesoooome!"

 

But I think you're right--she might be angry at Rumple for overriding her decision, and taking away her ability to bask in the admiration of her moral choice.

[KingOfHearts]

 

The impression I had from the dialogue and body language is that Regina could give a flying Fig Newton over Zelena being around.

 

Oh I agree. Everything Regina did in Kansas was so she could be on the pedestal as Hero of the Day.

 

Charming: "Oh I really hope I win Hero of the Day this time! Going to save my newborn should do it."

 

Emma: "Well I saved Hook from drowning!"

 

Hook: "I was cannon fodder!"

 

Regina: "Look everyone! I won!"

 

Everyone: "Regina?! You're not even a hero!"

 

Regina: "Today I am! Tomorrow I'll win Villain of the Day."

 

Rumple: "We'll see about that."

[Amerilla]

The impression I had from the dialogue and body language is that Regina could give a flying Fig Newton over Zelena being around.  It was less about Zelena actually having that second chance, and more about Regina being able to say "See?  I gave her a second chance.  I'm awwwesoooome!"

 

 

Totally. 

 

If the story was written in an orderly, character-driven way, Regina would not give a flying Fig Newton over Rumple killing Zelena. Zelena was nothing to her, nobody, the blood relation of a mother who hurt and abused her. IZelena only survived as long as she did in the barn showdown because Regina was feeling well-loved that particular moment of that particular day and was in a mood to be awwwwwesome. But I don't think she genuinely thought that Zels was going to fly right (insert Wicked Witch of the West joke here) and by Christmas they'd be sitting around braiding each other's hair. 

 

That said, because this is this show,  Regina's reaction to that news could be nothing, or it could be a general scorched-earth approach that's going to make Belle wish she had the real dagger.  

[KingOfHearts]

Zelena could have been an interesting character if they had done more with her backstory than just scenery chewing.

 

If, as the prophecy states, Zelena was the "greatest evil Oz has ever faced", shouldn't they have shown Zelena terrorizing the land? She took their ruler the Wizard, banished Glinda, had an army of flying monkeys, supposedly had spies in multiple realms, and seized Emerald City with a mere flick of the wrist by taking out all of two guards. If she's such a powerful force to be reckoned with, why does she spend 90% of her time just muahahaing to Enchanted Forest folks? Why couldn't she be portrayed as the Evil Queen of Oz? She was just shown as a petty brat who happened to have overpowered magic and a lust for sparkly imps.

 

The Wicked Witch of the West is so iconic, so great for a Once twist, aaaaand we got Zelena instead. She's Cora daughter - you'd think she'd have some of her cleverness genes. If they were going for Cora 2.0, they failed miserably. It was a golden opportunity, too!

Edited July 20, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

shouldn't they have shown Zelena terrorizing the land? She took their ruler the Wizard, banished Glinda

And then they had the "what the hell?" moment when Glinda complimented Zelena on turning the Wizard into a Monkey. And she's supposed to be Glinda the GOOD? Since when is it okay to turn someone into a slave to "teach them a lesson"?

Edited July 20, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

And she's supposed to be Glinda the GOOD?

 

They gave Glinda the Blue treatment and made her a carbon copy of the bland fairy herself. Couldn't she have some kind of off-the-wall character that would make her remotely close to memorable? Nope. She got dumbed down enough to give Zelena a pendant that made her elite. She's another plot device.

 

Why couldn't Zelena have a relationship with the other witches? Perhaps the Wicked Witch of the East could have been the protector who joined forces with Zelena, and then Zelena could have casted the dark curse with her heart. But instead, Oz basically had its shining light in one-and-a-half episodes, and it was gone. It's far more popular than Neverland, which got about a 10 episodes for spotlight. As a major Oz fan, I really don't get it.

 

I liked the idea of Zelena, and sometimes I enjoyed her scenery chewing, but her story was her major downfall.

[Camera One]

Replying in All-Realms/Seasons.

[angelwoody]

I got the distinct impression that everything Glinda did and said to Zelena (about joining the witches, about monkeying the wizard) was all specifically calculated to manipulate Zelena into fulfilling the prophecy in the book Glinda was in charge of.  I don't know if that was how it was meant to come across, but I can't find any other explanation for it.  Which then begs the question, if Glinda was manipulating Zelena the whole time, how "good" could she possibly be?

[Camera One]

I've thought about that too, but if that were the case, why give Zelena the pendant which would make her even more powerful?  In addition, her comment to Snow and Charming that Zelena wasn't always this way and used to be her friend suggests a level of delusion which makes clever manipulation impossible.  

 

I can't find any other explanation for it.

 

I think the explanation is she really thought she could convince Zelena to join the light and she thought she succeeded in finding the "good" in her.  Which is consistent with A&E writing the "good guys" as either helpless or brainless (and usually both).

[Mari]

I'm actually okay with them continuing the whole "lets have completely separate mini seasons that have their own themes" thing. Just because a mini-season lasts only a couple days in story-time doesn't mean I should feel like we're walking in circles and all the plot points from the previous season are conveniently forgotten because we're spending half the season on flashbacks about these new characters that will eventually disappear from our screens.

 

... they did [this] last year by saying "Oh yeah, the Wicked Witch is just a one arc character, she'll die by the end of the season."

One of the things that we've talked about is a recurring villain--someone they temporarily vanquish, but who manages to  Energizer Bunnys back in for an episode or two once in a while, to shake things up.

 

Would that still work with a split season structure?

 

Which villain(s) do you think this would work for?

 

Personally, I think Zelena would have worked better as a pop in and out villain.  She was far too fond of the melodramatic scene chewing to be entertaining in the long arc.

[Curio]

One of the things that we've talked about is a recurring villain--someone they temporarily vanquish, but who manages to Energizer Bunnys back in for an episode or two once in a while, to shake things up.

 

I'm firmly in the they-desperately-need-a-multi-season-villain camp. Even though it looks like they're only doing mini-seasons now, it would still work if they used the character sporadically enough. I mean, Rumple kind of fits the role of a multi-season villain since I haven't placed him on the official Hero Seating Chart yet, but he doesn't really count unless he's actively being villainous towards the main group. (And no, being controlled by Zelena doesn't count.) The writers left themselves with a little wiggle room with Zelena because her death was kind of ambiguous, but if they ever brought her "back from the dead" in the future, they'd better have a good reason that doesn't seem convoluted.

 

I still don't know why we haven't met the black fairy yet, but I think that character could work as a multi-season villain. I just find it strange that they name drop this random fairy no one has ever heard about out during the Neverland arc, only to never bring the topic back up again. If someone in the future casually references the black fairy in a conversation, I seriously need one of the other characters to be like "who the hell is this fairy?!"

[Camera One]

I'm firmly in the they-desperately-need-a-multi-season-villain camp.

 

Knowing this show, I am so sick of the three mega-villains we've had already that I don't want them gracing (more like wasting) the screentime any more.  And multi-season villains can be very unsatisfying to watch.  They just come back and knowing this show, the "good guys" would be dumb as doorknobs and let this megavillain victimize them again and again with no resolution.  Or they temporarily put him/her in Pandora's box and let it sit somewhere unattended, or they leave the most powerful pendant in the world sitting in a drawer in the crypt everyone knows the location of.  It just ends up making the characters look stupid.  

 

A multi-season villain *could* be good, but it won't be a magic solution when there are so many other underlying factors which are causing problems in the show.

[Shanna Marie]

I think a multi-season villain might have worked if they hadn't tried to reform Regina and Rumple. They wouldn't have necessarily had to be Big Bads, and there could have been other villains, but those two could still have been working behind the scenes to retain their power even while playing nice on the surface. Regina could have continued the way she did in season one, where she was outwardly trying to act all reasonable but was secretly manipulating events. It would have changed somewhat once everyone knew who she was and what she'd done, but then her crocodile tears might have worked if she was doing it deliberately to manipulate them even while trying to undermine Snow and Emma and win Henry back, and she would have been very difficult to fight against without looking as bad as she is or worse. She might occasionally have teamed up with the good guys to take on a villain who also threatened her, but she might have also occasionally teamed up with another villain if she thought she could get the advantage, particularly if it looked like she could get the other villain to deal with Snow and Emma while keeping her hands clean in Henry's eyes. Then in the final season, she could have become the Big Bad for the ultimate confrontation in which she was either defeated for good or truly redeemed for good.

 

They could have done a similar thing with Rumple, though it becomes more of a challenge once he's found his son. I have no idea what they can do with him going forward while trying to keep him good enough that Belle doesn't ditch him while keeping him bad enough for them to find him interesting. At least Regina still has her vendetta against Snow (since she hasn't ever apologized for that or apparently realized that she was wrong) and her competition with Emma over Henry that could have motivated her to the end. I don't know what Rumple has to shoot for now that he's found and lost his son other than his vague need to have power.

[Curio]

Multi-season villains can be very unsatisfying to watch. They just come back and knowing this show, the "good guys" would be dumb as doorknobs and let this megavillain victimize them again and again with no resolution.

When I was thinking of a multi-season villain that could work for this show, I wasn't thinking of a villain who constantly torments the good guys every season, which makes Team Storybrooke look completely incompetent. I was thinking more along the lines of small glimpses here and there of something looming in the background; someone slowly building up their big plan that wouldn't get addressed/resolved until the final season. When the seasons are so different from each other by having different fairy tale themes, I feel like the show needs to establish some more continuity to connect the seasons together better, just so I know as a viewer that this story is building up towards something important. Right now, I feel like there's no clear end in sight and we'll just keep hopping to Camelot, Agrabah, The Hundred Acre Wood, or wherever until ABC decides to cancel the show.

 

They could possibly go there with the black fairy, since that's already a canon character. They can start showing glimpses of a Big Bad in a character's fairy-back, where the audience doesn't even realize they're an important villain yet. As the seasons go on, they could start hinting at each mini-season villain having ties to the same person who happens to be pulling all the strings. I realize they tried (and failed, epically) to do this with the shitty "Home Office" plot line and Peter Pan, so maybe I just have my expectations too high with these writers.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Curio

[Mari]

The other way they could go is a character who's strictly a mercenary.  I realize that Rumple has his clients, but he can't be the only one out there who magics for hire.

 

A recurring villain could be in the BtVS's Ethan Rayne style, but without a personal connection.  Like @Curio said--have the character show up, seemingly unimportant, in a fairyback or two.  Then have the character show up in Storybrooke doing some minor mayhem causing for hire.  The Storybrookers foil the plot, and capture the person that hired him/her.  They don't even necessarily need to know at first that Random Mercenary Villain is an issue.

 

Eventually, if necessary, the character has built up enough evil credit that he/she can be the big bad for a while.

[stealinghome]

Personally, I think Zelena would have worked better as a pop in and out villain.  She was far too fond of the melodramatic scene chewing to be entertaining in the long arc.

I totally agree. I remember saying, way back after 3x13, that I wish they'd leave Zelena alive so she could pop in and out, give Regina a hard time, cause some problems, and peace out again. One of the things I kind of enjoyed about Pan was that in a lot of ways, the heroes were afterthoughts to him! Not all villains have to dedicate their lives to bringing down one person in particular. It's actually a little narcissistic to think that ALL these villains have dedicated their lives to bringing Snow & co. down. Surely there are some people that the extended Charming clan pissed off who would love to make life difficult for them, but who have other things to be getting on with 98% of the time?

[Camera One]

I wish they'd leave Zelena alive so she could pop in and out, give Regina a hard time, cause some problems, and peace out again. One of the things I kind of enjoyed about Pan was that in a lot of ways, the heroes were afterthoughts to him!

 

Yeah, I totally wouldn't mind having villains who specifically only come around to bother Regina and Rumple and then fly off to live another day.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Yeah, I totally wouldn't mind having villains who specifically only come around to bother Regina and Rumple and then fly off to live another day.

 

Why couldn't they just... banish Cora to another realm? Have her go to Wonderland again, then put her as the villain in the Wonderland spinoff. They could have either paralleled We are Both and have Regina push her into the mirror, or parallel Queen of Hearts and have Emma do it.

 

Regina looking at a Looking Glass in Gold's Shop:

 

Regina: "Why do you have this?"

Rumple: "For a rainy day."

 

Regina: "But the other one shattered."

 

Rumple: "They're really cheap. Maleficent and I got a two-for-one deal from an Agrabahn sorceress."

 

Regina: "I can tell by the snake designs on the frame."

 

I don't know why they have to kill the villains after every half-season. Regina should get haunted by Zelena's ghost via the pendant every time she goes into her vault, but I really don't believe Zelena is actually dead, to be honest. It's been confirmed Pan isn't totally dead, either. I can't remember where, but I remember the writers saying Pan was just "frozen somewhere" like Rumple was.

Edited July 24, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

but I remember the writers saying Pan was just "frozen somewhere" like Rumple was.

 

You've got to be kidding me.  I thought they would have really stressed they're dead.  Like with Neal.  

[Mathius]

No, they've said Pan is dead. And where did they ever say Rumple was "frozen somewhere"? Because I don't recall seeing it, and he wasn't frozen anywhere in the show either. He was dead until Neal stupidly sacrificed himself to bring him back.

One of the things I kind of enjoyed about Pan was that in a lot of ways, the heroes were afterthoughts to him!

Exactly. He had the power to kill them all easily, but he was such a narcissist who was so convinced that he'd "never fail" anyway (as was the Pan from the original story) that he figured why not keep them around as his playthings? They were literally just something to keep himself entertained between being hard at work getting Henry to believe in him, using their own issues to block them from making progress in saving Henry not because he thought there was any threat of them doing so, but because it was FUN for him.

I don't miss Pan, since he would have definitely worn out his welcome if he had stayed beyond his arc, but boy was he great while he lasted.

Rumple: "They're really cheap. Maleficent and I got a two-for-one deal from an Agrabahn sorceress."

I know you're referencing Amara with that line, but that reminds me: Jafar! He would actually be PERFECT as a recurring villain on the show because he's a genie now, which means he can serve whichever big bad ends up in possession of him (or, whenever things needs to be switched around, he can serve the heroes against his will if they get ahold of him). Plus his personal backstory and issues stemming from them have already been dealt with in the spin-off, so the show wouldn't need to spend any needless time on that either. Edited July 24, 2014 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

 

No, they've said Pan is dead.

Reference, please?

 

I haven't found the actual article yet where they said he was frozen somewhere, but I did find multiple articles that referenced it.

 

Here's one from LA Times:

http://tinyurl.com/nppqwu9

 

 

Robert Carlyle's Rumpelstiltskin sacrificed himself to take out the never-aging big bad (who the creators say they have "frozen" somewhere), and who knows what that means for our beloved Mr. Gold.

Edited July 24, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

When asked about Peter Pan in the 3B interviews, Edward Kitsis mentioned they would like to use Peter Pan again in flashbacks, but not this season.  That would imply he is dead, I suppose.

http://tvline.com/2014/02/11/the-crazy-ones-spoilers-sydney-andrew-season-1-ask-ausiello/

 

Series cocreator Eddy Kitsis shares your fandom of Robbie Kay’s run as Pan, saying, “We definitely would like to see him in a flashback, because the character was so much fun to write. I’m not sure it will happen this season, but there is a potential.” Concurs Adam Horowitz: “We would hate to not be able to use him again.”

 

Interviewer: Are you done with Peter Pan, for good?
KITSIS:  I wouldn’t say for good.  This season, yes. 

http://collider.com/adam-horowitz-edward-kitsis-once-upon-a-time-interview/#3M7fRi3hwHQy7c04.99

Edited July 24, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Well, it's an arbitrary do-what-they-want kind of thing. It's possible to bring him back because we never saw Pan die, so they *could* resurrect him if they wanted to through some contrived reason. There really is no reason they couldn't. Even if he is just frozen somewhere, that doesn't necessarily mean they'll actually utilize that fact.

 

Maleficent, Pan, and Zelena need to start a "Team Against Rumple/Regina" support group wherever they are. None of their deaths are 100% confirmed, and they each have big beefs with Rumple/Regina. I'm either predicting 4B or a really crazy fanfic here. (But what's the difference?)

Edited July 24, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[tennisgurl]

If there was an entire episode where every character who ever had beef with Regina and/or Rumple got together, and just had a giant gripe session, that would probably be the greatest episode ever made. But since that probably wont happen, fanfiction writers, start your engines!

 

As for Pan, I fully expect him to randomly pop up again. If fans start complaining about future plot development/bad guys, they could totally bring him back to keep the fans happy.

Edited July 24, 2014 by tennisgurl

[ParadoxLost]

If there was an entire episode where every character who ever had beef with Regina and/or Rumple got together, and just had a giant gripe session, that would probably be the greatest episode ever made. But since that probably wont happen, fanfiction writers, start your engines.

 

And the fairybacks can be fantasies of Regina and Rumple being punished for their crimes (Nine to Five style) via all the variations of the original tales.

 

Charming/Snow put Regina in burning iron shoes and make her dance to death, dwarves chase Regina until she falls down a hill and dies, and Rumple throws a tantrum stomps his feet and gets stuck.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Even for Disney villains, Regina took it a bit far. 30 years of rape. Children killing. Village massacres. Burning Snow White at the stake. Murdering her own dad. There isn't a character in the Disney pantheon shown to be that evil.

 

And Rumple is supposed to be the Dark One!

Actually, Frollo from Hunchback of Notre Dame was burning down and massacring villages to find the gypsy he lusted for. He even threatened to burn down all of Paris. He also tried to burn the gypsy at the stake, but she's saved by Quasimodo before she can be burned alive. As far as the other stuff goes, he locked Quasimodo in a tower for all his life and basically abused him.

 

Coincidentally, he suffers the same fate as the Evil Queen - he falls to his death.

Edited July 27, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[kili]

Actually, Frollo from Hunchback of Notre Dame was burning down and massacring villages to find the gypsy he lusted for.

 

This is true. And I believe he wanted to kill baby Quasimodo when he realized how ugly he was, so Frollo is certainly has little grounds to be judgy about Regina. I wonder, though, if he isn't too frigid. Part of the reason he was so evil is because he was tormented by his own sexuality. He'd need to get over that quickly because Regina is not a patient woman (and her romances go from 0 to 60 in about 3 days).

[Camera One]

He would also be the type to hate strong women and as you said, he's so repressed.  It's such a shame since they share common interests like burning people at stakes, misplacing blame, threatening wards and killing innocent people.  Plus their personalities are compatible both being so controlling and audacious.  

 

Here are some possible dating scenarios:

http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbleggQJP31r9izroo1_500.jpg

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/278/7/0/queen_and_frollo_by_brinatello-d305ne8.jpg

Edited July 27, 2014 by Camera One

[Mathius]

This is true. And I believe he wanted to kill baby Quasimodo when he realized how ugly he was

"Wanted" nothing; he was literally JUST about to drop the baby in a freezing well when the church archdeacon stopped him.

So yeah, Disney's Frollo is a definite match for Evil Queen Regina's level of evil.

[Rumsy4]

That was pretty much unforgivable, and they've never mentioned it again.  Regina got off scot-free from that.  And now the ship has sort of sailed from bringing it up again.  There are so many little loose ends that the villains have gotten away with.  Another minor one is what happened to Gaston.  Is Belle ever going to find out about that?  

 

Yeah--I think it's a shame that there is never a proper accounting for all the crimes that the villains have committed, while Snow's secret-spilling is brought up over and over again. However, Belle hardly batted an eyelid when she found out that Rumple had murdered his ex-wife by brutally crushing her heart. So, finding out about Gaston would not faze her in the least. 

[Camera One]

I mean, one would think what the villains did was going to come back to bite them.  But I seriously think the writers did the Gaston/rose thing as a "Oh wouldn't that be a cool twist!  That incorporates the rose from the Beauty and the Beast movies".  They even had Belle cut the end of the rose with a pair of scissors.  What the hell...

[Mari]

Well, they didn't like Gaston.  Who cared? 

 

It's apparently less villainy to kill someone who isn't entertaining--the deaths of characters who are without rabid fanbases are rarely addressed.  Greg, Tamara, Milah, Gaston, Gus-Gus . . .

[Rumsy4]

 

It's apparently less villainy to kill someone who isn't entertaining--the deaths of characters who are without rabid fanbases are rarely addressed.

 

That's is exactly the problem with the morality in OUAT. Who's right or wrong entirely depends on how much the writers like that character, and how much they want to viewers to see them in a sympathetic light. Milah's murder would be much less forgivable for most people if she had been a "nicer" character. As is, her murder can be dismissed with "she had it coming". 

[Camera One]

That is usually the case... I mean "Black Beard" was represented as deserving of being murdered since "he had it coming".   Yes, the two characters are nothing alike but I just mean in general terms, to justify killing.

 

Though they also did have Rumple killing innocent people who did not "have it coming".  For example, the mute servant girl.  Or the villagers that Regina killed, or Owen's father.  So it isn't as clearcut.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Camera One

[Curio]

It's apparently less villainy to kill someone who isn't entertaining--the deaths of characters who are without rabid fanbases are rarely addressed.

Hell, even Graham (who I think had a decent-sized fan base) never had his death addressed. But it's all okay since the writers refuse to bring up any issues regarding Graham on-screen. 

Edited August 4, 2014 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

It's a TV show, so I have no problem with random deaths not being addressed. The writers aren't focused on morality - they're focused on what's popular. When I watch a drama like Once, I check real world expectations for moral handling at the door. But that's just me, of course.

From a purely logic standpoint, I do wonder why Emma never asked about Graham.

Edited August 4, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

 

That is usually the case... I mean "Black Beard" was represented as deserving of being murdered since "he had it coming".

 

Black Beard engaged in a duel to the death over the Jolly Roger. He could have walked away from the fight if he'd wanted. I'm not saying that dueling is necessarily a great thing, but it was a fair fight that both parties consented to be a part of and knew the consequences should they lose. There's a big difference in that and even the death of someone like Tamara who had done some terrible things, but didn't deserve to die for it. The large power imbalance between the villains in this show and everyone else is highly problematic in terms of even the more "deserving" deaths.

[Rumsy4]

Though they also did have Rumple killing innocent people who did not "have it coming".  For example, the mute servant girl.  Or the villagers that Regina killed, or Owen's father.  So it isn't as clearcut.

 

It's also significant or meaningful screen-time. We were not meant to really dwell on the poor mute servant girl. It served its purpose of showing Bae's growing issues with his father. 

 

Even when it comes to Emma, JMo gets a lot of screen-time, but not all of it is meaningful (or most, if we take 3B). Regina's issues get more importance in-story than Emma's issues. Even Snow's one act of innocent mistake a child is twisted into something terrible by the narrative in order to justify Regina's insanity. Regina and Rumple's triumphant moments are played up. It's deliberate writing choices, but it is also cheating. They could have chosen to have Eva legitimately mess up Cora's life by planting fake evidence on her or something. But the writers take what is not evil, and twist it into something that is. And that makes little sense to me.

 

Yeah, I'm not looking for my moral compass from the Show, but at the same time, I expect some kind of consistency and logic to the morality in-universe, and OUAT doesn't have that kind of consistency.