The Villains of Once Upon a Time

[KingOfHearts]

 

It just seems weird to me that Belle, Neal, Snow, Jefferson, Walsh, Hook, Tamara, Greg etc.

 

They used magical items, not magic itself. Anyone can use a magical item, but not anyone can conjure magic out of the air. 

 

It's just my opinion that if anyone could use magic just from feelings, a lot more people would be using it. Some people, like Emma, Regina or baby Zelena, used magic from an emotional outburst without even trying. 

 

 

They might have talent, but they might be afraid of trying.

 

Some can use magic, but some don't. Not just anyone can use magic, they need the gift of it. Zelena herself was a peasant.

 

There's more evidence on the show that just people born with a "special gift" can use it than just anyone being able to use it. We haven't seen on the show anyone who doesn't use magic regularly or have special powers just use it once or twice. It's not impossible for just anyone being able to use it after getting angry, but there's nothing on the show to really support it either. I'm going by what's on the show.

Edited August 23, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

There's more evidence on the show that just people born with a "special gift" can use it than just anyone being able to use it. We haven't seen on the show anyone who doesn't use magic regularly or have special powers just use it once or twice.

Responding on the magic thread.

[Shanna Marie]

It's just my opinion that if anyone could use magic just from feelings, a lot more people would be using it.

It seems like some sort of kick start is needed. We know Regina has the ability to use magic, and she grew up around Cora, so she should have known by observation how to use magic -- or at least had a better sense than most people did. So if just using magic spontaneously from feelings was possible, you'd think that Regina would have used magic when Daniel was killed or when she learned Snow had told Cora about Daniel. I know in Storybrooke she had to inhale that book to get her powers back, but wasn't a book involved when Rumple first started cultivating her? So maybe some outside force, like an object or person, is usually required to trigger magic, which would explain why so few people can use it. They may have the aptitude, but there's an ingredient missing.

 

I've wondered if Zelena's magic was an environmental thing due to exposure to a magical realm-crossing tornado.

[stealinghome]

I've wondered if Zelena's magic was an environmental thing due to exposure to a magical realm-crossing tornado.

OR was the magical realm-crossing tornado a manifestation of baby!Zelena's magic?

 

I actually had wondered previously if Emma was magical because of her journey through the wardrobe like five minutes after she was born, but the show seems to be pinning her magic on being the product of True Love/whatever is magical in her, so....

[Shanna Marie]

OR was the magical realm-crossing tornado a manifestation of baby!Zelena's magic?

But since Dorothy was brought to Oz by a similar magical realm-crossing tornado that I don't think she made happen or summoned, it seems more likely that the tornado triggered the magical aptitude Zelena inherited from Cora. If the newborn could whip up a tornado, you'd think she'd have also zapped her mother for leaving her.

 

It would also seem that the pendant's role was to amplify magic she channeled from the environment, which would have put her in the same category as Regina in being able to use the ambient magic, but different from Emma, who is inherently magical. But since we didn't see Zelena in a truly magic-free environment, I guess we don't have a definitive answer. The idea of outsourcing all your magic channeling ability to a pendant in tradeoff for bonus amplification doesn't seem like such a great idea to me, unless maybe it was meant as a kind of failsafe in case one of the witches went overboard and turned evil. If that's the case, it failed here, but that could have been because Zelena wasn't from Oz and her Enchanted Forest magical ability gave her superpowers in Oz that made her too powerful for the other witches to counter.

[KingOfHearts]

 

But since Dorothy was brought to Oz by a similar magical realm-crossing tornado that I don't think she made happen or summoned, it seems more likely that the tornado triggered the magical aptitude Zelena inherited from Cora.

 

I don't exactly agree with this... Zelena was crying before the tornado came, so I'd say it came from her own emotions. She did knock of a tree limb with her magic just minutes later, so she was using it already. We really don't know the circumstances of Dorothy's arrival. It could have been summoned by a magical force for all we know.

 

 

If the newborn could whip up a tornado, you'd think she'd have also zapped her mother for leaving her.

 

Maybe the tornado was for Cora, LOL. Then Regina wouldn't be the first Mills daughter to try to banish her mother to another realm. Since she was a baby, it's hard to tell what her intentions were. I don't think she'd be able to connect that her mom was abandoning her, since she was just a newborn, much less revenge or anger.

 

 

but different from Emma, who is inherently magical.

 

This is a very debatable issue because the writers have said that Emma can't use magic in the Land Without Magic, so she might not be.

Edited August 24, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

But we've seen Emma do magic in the Land Without Magic.

[KingOfHearts]

 

But we've seen Emma do magic in the Land Without Magic.

 

If you're talking about light flickers... that could be some sort of True Love disrupting electric fields thing. It's like a sign she's trying to use magic, but she can't. We haven't seen her do actual magic anywhere. No poofy clouds, no spells, no teleportation, zilch.

Edited August 24, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

These writers, man. They've also confirmed that the lights flickering when Emma gave birth to Henry was a manifestation of her magic. Isn't the sparks coming from the power line when she slams the car door in Storybrooke in the pilot episode another confirmed instance? I thought I read that somewhere.

 

 

 

If you're talking about light flickers... that could be some sort of True Love disrupting electric fields thing.

 

But it's still something she's causing. We've never seen her try to do magic in the Land Without Magic but she does have the ability to affect things around her without realizing she's doing it. That's still some kind of power.

 

I've long held the theory that it's not so much that Emma has magic. She has True Love -- the most powerful magic in all the lands -- coursing through her veins. True Love makes up as much of who she is as her DNA does. Which means, essentially, Emma is magic.

 

How this jives with Zelena removing her power is beyond me, but it's my theory and I'm sticking to it. ;)

Edited August 24, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[KingOfHearts]

Replying in Magic thread.

Edited August 24, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

Fwiw, yes, I believe I've read Adam and Eddie saying that the sparks in the pilot were caused by Emma.

[Jean]

I've never seen anywhere where A&E said Emma couldn't do magic in land of no magic. Source?

In fact they said the opposite, and showed the opposite onscreen when they did Henry's birth and the pilot.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Jean

[KingOfHearts]

 

I've never seen anywhere where A&E said Emma couldn't do magic in land of no magic. Source?

 

I can't find the interview anywhere, unfortunately. It was between 3A and 3B. Someone asked if Emma was practicing her magic in New York, and A&E said she couldn't because there's no magic there.

Edited August 25, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

Replying in the Magic thread.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[KingOfHearts]

 

Excuse me, but how the heck do you get that they didn't take the time to show Hook and Rumple's character development? Hook especially is MILES ahead of Regina in terms of his redemption arc.

 

The legitimacy of redemption arcs isn't solely based on how much screen time it gets. You can cover a huge amount of ground in just one scene if you write it well enough. Hook's redemption hasn't gotten near the spotlight that Regina's has, yet he's almost to "hero" territory. The irony is Regina's spotlight has actually diminished her redemption rather than strengthened it. The more scenes they give her, the more doors they open to mistakes. 3A had very little of her going on relatively speaking, and her arc was decent for the most part. In 3B she had screen time out the wazoo and it caused so many new problems. The lesson here is quantity does not equal quality.

[FurryFury]

Hook's redemption hasn't gotten near the spotlight that Regina's has, yet he's almost to "hero" territory.

 

I don't think so. He's certainly closer to redemption than either Regina or Rumple, though, but I don't think he's anywhere near hero. At least I wouldn't want him to be, because I'd prefer at least one villain-to-hero arc progress slowly and without any jarring changes. Most of the good things Hook's done so far were for Emma. He was shown to be unable to return to being a pirate, true, but there's a long road from that to being truly heroic.

[KingOfHearts]

 

At least I wouldn't want him to be, because I'd prefer at least one villain-to-hero arc progress slowly and without any jarring changes. Most of the good things Hook's done so far were for Emma. He was shown to be unable to return to being a pirate, true, but there's a long road from that to being truly heroic.

 

He does better as a grey character, but he hasn't acted like a grey character. At this point I think his good deeds have stretched beyond Emma. He felt guilt about going back to piracy, he apologized in tears to Ariel, he's got a bromance going on with Charming, when he came to Emma he stressed that her parents were in danger, he's tried to connect to Henry not only for Emma's sake but Neal's, etc. I agree it's mostly about Emma, but I don't think he'd revert to evil without her after the events of The Jolly Roger.

 

At this point I see him aligning himself with the "good guys", even when Emma isn't around. It's a slow process that's not perfect, but he's got a conscience that neither Regina or Rumple seem to possess. He's not a hero yet - just close to it.

 

 

None of these deeds really qualify as heroic, really. He may be slowly becoming a good person, but there's a pretty big gap between a good person and a hero.

He's not a hero, just close to it. Good person is closer to hero than bad person.

 

 

Yeah, as much as I like Hook, and as well as his redemption arc has been handled, I'm not ready to slap the "hero" label on him until he does something unselfish or self-sacrificial for the greater good or for someone other than Emma or even Henry

Well, he did save Aurora's heart from a swirling vortex. Again, he's not a hero. He's just in the vicinity.

Edited September 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

He's certainly closer to redemption than either Regina or Rumple, though, but I don't think he's anywhere near hero.

Yeah, as much as I like Hook, and as well as his redemption arc has been handled, I'm not ready to slap the "hero" label on him until he does something unselfish or self-sacrificial for the greater good or for someone other than Emma or even Henry -- for something other than purely personal stakes or to prevent him from losing the woman he loves or his last tie to the previous woman he loved. If he puts himself on the line for the town/kingdom or takes a risk to save Belle, for instance, then I might start considering him heroic, and I don't want them to even start using that word for him until he does so. It's so empty when Henry keeps proclaiming Regina a hero when she refrains from killing someone.

[FurryFury]

He felt guilt about going back to piracy, he apologized in tears to Ariel, he's got a bromance going on with Charming, when he came to Emma he stressed that her parents were in danger, he's tried to connect to Henry not only for Emma's sake but Neal's, etc.

 

None of these deeds really qualify as heroic, really. He may be slowly becoming a good person, but there's a pretty big gap between a good person and a hero.

UPD: Or just what Shanna Marie said in a more eloquent way :)

Edited September 19, 2014 by FurryFury

[Serena]

I think Hook is closer to redemption to Rumple or Regina because he just was not as evil as them. YMMV, but while his methods were terrible, at least his motivation was understandable (unlike Regina's). He had much less "let's just murder or tortute a bunch of random people for the hell of it" to make up for, thus he needed to do less work to convince the audience.
 

He does better as a grey character, but he hasn't acted like a grey character. At this point I think his good deeds have stretched beyond Emma. He felt guilt about going back to piracy, he apologized in tears to Ariel, he's got a bromance going on with Charming, when he came to Emma he stressed that her parents were in danger, he's tried to connect to Henry not only for Emma's sake but Neal's, etc. I agree it's mostly about Emma, but I don't think he'd revert to evil without her after the events of The Jolly Roger.

 

I don't know. I mean, if Emma just dumps him, yeah, I don't see him returning to evil. But if some big evil murders her, like Rumple did Milah? I'm not ready to 100% say he wouldn't go on a huge revenge quest. I mean, maybe if the Charmings and Henry were there and kept telling him "no, Emma wouldn't want that" it's possible he wouldn't. 

Edited September 19, 2014 by Serena

[KingOfHearts]

 

I don't know. I mean, if Emma just dumps him, yeah, I don't see him returning to evil. But if some big evil murders her, like Rumple did Milah? I'm not ready to 100% say he wouldn't go on a huge revenge quest. I mean, maybe if the Charmings and Henry were there and kept telling him "no, Emma wouldn't want that" it's possible he wouldn't.

 

The heroes on the show have gone on revenge quests. Emma did when Zelena "killed" Neal, plus countless times with Regina. Snow went on a revenge quest against Cora. Since Regina is supposedly a "hero", we all know she would. 

Edited September 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Serena]

I'm not sure I would call Emma and Snow's "revenge quests". Emma was happy to let Zelena live locked up in prison. Snow would have been as well, had there been a way to do that. Those are more "locking up dangerous individuals who threaten the whole world" quests. 

[KingOfHearts]

It's just up for interpretation. This gets into intents and opinions regarding some bigger issues that go well beyond villains. (Like Snow killing Cora, etc.) I'm not trying to argue that Hook is a hero, I'd just like to say that heroes mess up or get mad too. My point from my original post was that Hook is much closer to herohood than Regina, yet his redemption gets much, much less screen time.

Edited September 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Amerilla]

Well, he did save Aurora's heart from a swirling vortex. Again, he's not a hero. He's just in the vicinity.

Yes, but he was also the one who ripped it out in the first place. That example is about six counties removed from hero vicinity.

Hook's "redemption" struck me as so driven by the need to make him appropriate for The Savior that I can't see it as anything emanating from the character, just the exigencies of the plot of the moment. He's a saint or a sinner as the plot demands.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Amerilla

[Camera One]

I think Hook is closer to redemption to Rumple or Regina because he just was not as evil as them.

 

That's the key.  They've done a lot less yo-yo-ing for Hook.  Unlike Regina and Rumple, he appeared first in S2 and was pretty much a villain for the entire season and then S3 was pretty consistent humanization except for a slip during the Missing Year which he showed regret over.  Some people didn't even interpret his actions in "The Jolly Roger" as a slip since they saw him as being victimized by Ariel, so to some viewers, there was no slip and it was just a positive progression upwards.  Plus, less is more.  He had two centrics and both "Good Form" and "The Jolly Roger" were heavy on redeeming Hook and showing his human side with regret and willingness to be better.  He got dealt a very good card in terms of writing and got way more than the other protagonists like Snow, Charming,Neal, Belle and even Emma herself.  I find that kind of warped in its own way, but overall, his redemption story was thus more convincing.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Hook also started out as a good, noble person. His evil was definitely made, not born. He was a navy man who possibly saved hundreds of lives because of his refusal to retrieve the Dreamshade. Meanwhile, Regina and Rumple were pretty much messed up most of their lives. Like Camera One said, he's more consistent in that he doesn't yo-yo constantly like some other people.

 

Hook's writing is much more subtle. His good deeds aren't put on a beacon for all to see.

Edited September 20, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

And he isn't called a hero at every turn either or congratulated for doing the right thing.

[stealinghome]

For me, the distinction really comes down to level of evil. Hook hasn't massacred entire villages full of innocent peasants (that we know of--though I do hold him accountable for being an accomplice, however reluctant he may [or may not] have been, to Cora's village massacre). He hasn't gloatingly paraded innocent people doomed to die around as a warning. He hasn't destroyed an entire world because he's pissed off at one person, or because he made a bad decision and lost one person. He doesn't turn people into slugs and crush them when they annoy him. He didn't continually rape a sex slave for 30+ years and kill that sex slave when s/he tried to break free. He doesn't murder poor mute serving girls who might have overheard something vaguely dangerous. He didn't kill his ex-wife for saying she didn't love him.

 

I don't think Hook's redemption arc has been done as well as many on the board do, but I find the idea of his redemption more palatable simply because he has done maybe 5% of the evil either Regina and Rumpel have. He just has so, so much less to atone for. (However, I do agree that it's been handled better than Regina's. Hook at least is self-aware and understands that other people have emotions.)

Edited September 20, 2014 by stealinghome

[KingOfHearts]

 

(However, I do agree that it's been handled better than Regina's. Hook at least is self-aware and understands that other people have emotions.)

This is the deciding factor for me. It's the attitude. It's the transfer from only caring about themselves to putting others first. Regina is still very much into herself, putting her own good at first priority. As you can tell from Rumple's dagger lie, he still puts his power above Belle. Hook, however, has seen how his actions affect others. He's actually learned his moral lessons and put them into practice. I'd be as bold to say his love for Emma is truer than Rumpbelle, Outlaw Queen or even Regina's love for Henry. Hook puts the one he loves above everything, which is what Rumple and Regina still don't do. 

 

Hook has felt remorse and conviction for the things he's done. He has realized his vengeful life wasn't worth it. That is exactly what is missing from Rumple and Regina.

[Rumsy4]

He didn't continually rape a sex slave for 30+ years and kill that sex slave when s/he tried to break free. 

 

This really turns my stomach. At least Belle knows Rumple murdered his ex-wife, even if she has chosen to foolishly turn a blind eye to it. Emma knows Hook spent 200+ years wallowing in a revenge quest (which he now regrets). Robin does not know about the fact that Regina's last relationship was keeping a sex slave for over three decades! And killing him for daring to break away from her control. And she murdered her husband before that. Regina having a love interest is all kinds of messed up, but the least they could have done is at least address these issues, and not white-wash them away.  

[Jean]

I think Hook's journey is just more attractive because he doesn't whine, he doesn't play victim, he's not a self-righteous hypocrite and he's self-aware. That's it. He could've killed entired villages and babies and just those 4 qualities alone is enough for me to buy it. Or if not buy it, at least it's not annoying. The magnitude of evil doesn't really bother me if those qualities are present. Oh and he's not a male Mary Sue.

I don't quite buy that Rumple has started on a journey of redemption yet. Nor does he want to be on one. He was on a journey to right his wrong to Bae. That's it. All he's done is for that reason, it's not really to be good. It's not even to be good for Bae.

Hook puts the one he loves above everything, which is what Rumple still don't do

Rumple doesn't do it for Belle but he did it for Bae post S2. That was his turning point. He went to Neverland, he killed himself and Pan, he gave up his dagger to Zelena and even in the past with the time travel, he let Emma go knowing that Bae was dead.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Jean

[Dani-Ellie]

It's Hook's self-awareness that's doing it for me. When he thought he'd achieved his centuries-long vengeance and it still didn't fill that hole in his heart, he recognized that his entire worldview was wrong. He'd wasted those centuries because vengeance was never the answer, and all he'd done for those centuries was keep himself in stasis, physically and emotionally. Compare that to Regina who, when she got her vengeance and still wasn't satisfied, decided the answer was more vengeance.

 

And when Hook did let that anger go, recognized that he was the only one who could make himself not miserable, and allowed himself to move forward with his life, it opened up all these doors for him, doors he'd thought were closed forever. His and Regina's "tragic backstories" aren't too far from each other, after all; both had their loves' hearts crushed right in front of them. It's just that Hook has at least recognized that his path was the wrong one.

[KingOfHearts]

 

It's just that Hook has at least recognized that his path was the wrong one.

The Jolly Roger was huge for his redemption too. He found that not only was the vengeful lifestyle wrong, but his life as a thieving pirate only caring about himself as well. The sadness he feels in Storybrooke over his mistake with Ariel spoke volumes. It wasn't "No one understands me!" or "Woe is me with these consequences!", but it was, "I did something horrible to this person, and I sincerely regret it."

 

 

I don't quite buy that Rumple has started on a journey of redemption yet. Nor does he want to be on one. He was on a journey to right his wrong to Bae. That's it. All he's done is for that reason, it's not really to be good. It's not even to be good for Bae.

I agree. I believe some people think he was on a redemption path in 3A, but I didn't think so. It wasn't Bae he was putting first to me, but rather his guilt. If he truly put Bae first, then he would have listened to him about changing his act. That's how I see it, at least. It was more about stopping his guilt over leaving Bae. In Neal's S2 pseudo-death, I believe Rumple felt responsible for it because it would have never happened if he hadn't left him. 

Edited September 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

I really hate the labels "villain" and "hero" but when looking at who the term "villain" is used for on this show, I see it for Regina, Rumpel, Cora and Pan. These characters' actions reach epic levels of villainy. On a lower tier, I'd say we have basic "bad guys" like Hook, Tamara, Greg who all did some truly nasty things but nothing on the level of the evil of the big four. I have no idea where I'd place Zelena because I don't think I ever saw her kill anyone and she seemed mentally ill, not evil for evil's sake. I rather like when they term Hook a pirate rather than villain because it indicates a bad guy without putting him on the level of people who've murdered and terrorized countless numbers of people.

 

Hook's self awareness and belief that he isn't good enough to make up for his actions go a long way with me. He doesn't expect acceptance or praise for acting like a decent human being and helping out the people he cares for (showing remorse for his actions helps a lot too). Whereas Regina's characterization is such that she expects praise and acceptance when she isn't acting evil and zero awareness or care for others' pain and that doesn't work for me in terms of redemption. Bringing up the rear on the path to redemption is Rumpelstiltskin. Rumpel is very self-aware and self-loathing, but I don't think he's even trying for redemption at this point. He'll be good for Belle, but mostly I don't think he cares about anything else and isn't interested in others' acceptance, praise or forgiveness.

[Mari]

He'll be good for Belle, but mostly I don't think he cares about anything else and isn't interested in others' acceptance, praise or forgiveness.

And how good will he be, even for her?

 

Actually, how good does she want him to be?  She gets over her anger very quickly--so quickly that while the Once writers like it or not, it comes across as a pretense. 

 

I don't think Belle truly cares what he does to other people, as long as she's allowed to pretend she's a good person that wants him to treat people well.  Her reaction to the dagger deception could be very interesting, as well as very hypocritical.

[Camera One]

The whole dagger deception just feels so contrived.  Belle and Rumple have so many problems that would already naturally arise without this extra wedge between them.  When Belle does find out, all her anger will be solely due to this dagger deception and killing Zelena, when that is probably one of the lesser crimes of Rumple.  Like with the village massacre for Regina, Robin Hood's multiple flayings went a step too far for Rumple, making Belle (and Robin)'s reaction feel like a total joke.  I can't take those two characters seriously anymore after they handwaved that.  

Edited September 21, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

The whole dagger deception just feels so contrived.  Belle and Rumple have so many problems that would already naturally arise without this extra wedge between them.

But that's kind of why they have to put this really artificial wedge in, at the same time, you know? Because the show doesn't want to/can't admit and deal with the really real problems Rumbelle currently has (or ought to have).

Edited September 21, 2014 by stealinghome

[KingOfHearts]

 

The whole dagger deception just feels so contrived.

The dagger to me is the neon sign flashing that the Rumpbelle marriage is not well-grounded or altruistic. The proposal itself was based on something fake. The whole deal just screams out that power will always be more important than Belle. Belle is just an extra perk for him if you ask me. She's just a piece of furniture that can easily be manipulated. Whatever Rumple truly wants in the end, it's not her.

Edited September 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

At this point, I wonder what does he want, if not Belle.  They really short-circuited Rumple's entire reason for being by killing off Neal without really dealing with any of the underlying problems with that relationship.  Rumple wasn't very interesting with Zelena, and his scenes with Belle are unconvincing due to the weird sham of a marriage, and even though Robert Carlyle is such a great actor, I don't know where there is for his character to go at this point.

[KingOfHearts]

 

and even though Robert Carlyle is such a great actor, I don't know where there is for his character to go at this point.

He might have a new task after finding that mysterious item in the S4 premiere.

 

Hopefully they're give him a new goal in S4. He needs a longterm one that lets him be the puppet master again. I really miss old Rumple and S1 Mr. Gold. They were way more complex and cunning. Now he's basically reduced to relationship drama, like Regina.

Edited September 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I don't read spoilers, but hopefully that's a good sign for S4.  I just find with this show, without the surprise, there's really little to look forward to.

[YaddaYadda]

Much as I love Hook (and I was completely sold on him after the Crocodile), I thought what he did to Aurora was completely crass.  I understood the motivation, but given what he had gone through watching Milah's heart be torn out and then crushed by a powerful sorcerer, how did he know that Cora wouldn't do the same thing to Aurora just for the sake of fucking with  the 3 others.  And then you have her wanting to take Snow's heart to gift Regina with, but she's full of glee when Emma is standing in front of her.  I'm assuming he didn't think she'd kill Aurora and he saved the heart in the end, but that was such a douche move on his part!

[Amerilla]

Hook has felt remorse and conviction for the things he's done.

 

I agree with stealinghome that he's not the same calibre of bad as the other "villains" and thus has less horrific stuff to make up for, but I don't feel that there's something intrinsically more genuine in the way Hook has been led into his "redemption" arc than other characters. Over the last season, Hook has become much like Rumple - he does the sad puppy-dog thing when he's busted, but his attempts to walk the path of righteousness (or at least the path of non-schmuckyness) are tied to his lady-love 

 

It's fine to feel generally bad that you've wasted hundreds of years in pursuit of vengeance. He has grown in that sense. But like the other villains, that hasn't translated into any deep desire to make amends to those he's wronged. For example: he didn't give up on  piracy because he realized pillaging and plundering was wrong. He didn't give up on piracy, period. It's just that his heart isn't in it because he's depressed at the thought of losing Emma.

 

This idea that he's aware of the pain he's cause hasn't translated to the personal level, either. Maybe he felt remorse for giving Bae to Pan, but he never really displayed that to Neal. He didn't respond to Regina when she pointed out that he had tortured her. Apologies to Archie for kidnapping him? Crickets. As YaddaYadda points out, ripping out Aurora's heart should have been a big deal given his own experience, and I would think should have been worth a two-second "sorry" scene when they returned to the EF. Didn't happen. His "sorry?" to Belle didn't even pretend sincerity. His staying had nothing to do with the desire to help Belle; it was because Emma gave him the hairy eyeball.

(Just as an aside: the weirdness of what this show has become over the last two seasons can be pretty much summed up by the scene in Gold's shop in Quiet Minds, when Sheriff Savior wants Hook to stay with Belle. Putting aside that Hook has no particular edge in attempting to fight a magical being, as we saw in later episodes when Zels cursed him and tossed him around like a wet rag doll, Emma - and David, who is standing right there -  knows full well that Hook shot Belle. And that he sort of wandered  out of their custody and committed a whole new set of crimes, including assaulting David, nearly killing Gold, and assisting in the kidnapping and torture of Regina. Even in a fictional setting, it's pretty bizarre when a victim has to remind everyone that this man who is being designated her protector has attempted to kill her no fewer than two previous times. The punchline on that scene should have been Belle announcing that she's better take her chances with the Witch, but the story dictated that Hook not be hanging on to Emma's jacket for the episode, so he stays.)

 

The writing has gotten too bad for me to see these as "characters" in the sense we usually use the word. In Hook's case, I think they're happy to let Colin's prettiness cover up all the ways in which they haven't taken opportunities to let him grow, because they want to keep what they see as his edge while still trying to morph him into a romantic lead. I think if you're a fan of the character or the actor, it probably works, but for those of us who aren't, it's sort of bizarre to read about this deep and meaningful transformation of him as "pirate" to "hero-adjacent."

[KingOfHearts]

He didn't give up on piracy, period. It's just that his heart isn't in it because he's depressed at the thought of losing Emma.

He didn't give up piracy, he gave up only caring about himself. The whole ordeal with Ariel had nothing to do with being depressed over Emma. He felt the remorse and conviction in Storybrooke, after he had gotten Emma back. In fact, he was almost home free. He didn't have to say anything about what he had done. But he did and had almost tears over it. He had zero consequences for his decision, but he felt bad about because it hurt Ariel and it was the wrong thing to do.

I've never seen Rumple or Regina feel remorse over an action just because it was wrong. They've cried because they got caught or lost something, of course. Conviction doesn't make a person a "hero", but it does make redemption a lot more believable to me.

I think if you're a fan of the character or the actor, it probably works

I'm actually more of a fan of Regina than Hook, and I still call crap on her redemption arc. Edited September 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

Apologies to Archie for kidnapping him? Crickets.

I laughed way too loud at this. Ha!

[YaddaYadda]

I think Hook and Regina are pretty much square on the whole torture thing.  She sent him down to Zombie Maleficent, she was surprised to see him come back which means she thought he'd be killed down there.  He didn't assist her when she was getting zapped, but he was very put off by it (I won't even pretend like I remember what happened after that, and I can't even remember how Regina was rescued). 

 

He doesn't care for her, she doesn't care for him, that's how I like it personally.  I don't need someone else to worship Regina. 

[Rumsy4]

While I liked Hook right from the start, I started believing his redemption arc only from 3A, and I started shipping CS only after the Neverland kiss. The reason why I buy Hook's redemption arc (which is still ongoing) is that 1. he feels remorse for what he has done. 2. he has taken, and is still taking, active steps to move away from his villainous actions, and 3. the narrative has done nothing to retcon or white wash his actions. For example, if Hook was Regina, we would have a backstory as to how Aurora's mother assisted Rumplestiltskin and made it "complicated" as to why Hook stole her heart. Neither has he received the Neal treatment where every douche move he pulled at a 16/17 year old Emma has been excused as "he had no choice". The "good" characters are ready to turn against Hook at the drop of a hat, while they have no qualms working with "no regrets" Regina. I started to buy Regina's redemption arc by the end of Going Home, but 3B completely destroyed it. Thankfully, the narrative still paints Rumple as a villain. It's their stance on the supposed True Love between him and Belle that I don't buy.

[Mari]

Brought over from the spoiler thread, as there were no actual spoilers in the comment or in my reply.  "Scott" referred to a hypothetical villain the writers were joking about--a villain that they didn't think the audience would see as connected to the story, since he wasn't related to anybody in Storybrooke.

I say bring on this Scott. It would be much more realistic that some of the villains are not related. Frankly, I think somebody with a sensible motive would be refreshing and constantly related villains a little boring now. Sure, it's a fun twist once and a while, but not all the time. If Pan was just a man seaking eternal youth, he'd have still made a respectable villain. We didn't find out until the last couple of episodes that Pan was related to Rumple and we managed to stay engaged for 9 episodes  or so without that information. A Wicked Witch with a reasonable motive would have been fantastic. Wanting to have Regina's life when she seemed to have had a nicer adopted mom than Cora and she could have just magicked up her own mansion kind of took me out of the story.

Yes.

In the interview, it seemed like they were mocking the idea that they should have more villains who are completely unrelated to their main cast.  I don't get that; it happens on other shows regularly. 

 

Personally, I have to agree with you.  Making Zelena and Regina sisters, with Zelena's motive basically being she's a Mills and horrifically jealous?  That was the weakest, most bizarre, thin motive I could imagine.  Especially when they had Zelena raised by a loving adopted mother, who must've made Zelena's father try to be a good father.  (Zelena was too surprised by his behavior after her mother died, otherwise.)

 

There were lots of more realistic motives to be had, even if they wanted to stick with jealousy as Zelena's motivator:

a) She was overwhelmingly in love with Sidney, who didn't want her back. 

b) Her family was a victim of one of Regina's purges.  She's now horrified and jealous because the same people that Regina persecuted are now surrounding her, as a caring family, while her own caring family is, well, still Reginaed.

c)  Daniel dumped her because he was in love with Regina.

d)  She was Graham's true love.  (He never met her;  Zelena knew because of pixie dust.)

e)  She was a victim of the original curse, and Regina arranged for her husband and/or children to be raised by someone else.  They don't want her back.

 

 

Seriously, I do not get that the showrunners haven't figured out that they have plenty of things to draw from. Between Regina and Rumple stomping over people with abandon, there have to be a few people out there who'd go Dark Magic to mete out their own form of justice.

 

That would be a more compelling story, would still tie in with the main characters, and wouldn't result in surprise relatives popping up regularly, to the group mocking of the fandom.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Mari

[tennisgurl]

I just...I don't get it! Have they never seen any other stories? Do they know something about plot and character? Can they seriously not see that there are better ways to do this?

On Angel, one of my favorite bad guys was Holt, a guy with a legitimate grudge against Angel. It didn't try to hide the things Angel did while he was evil (ironically, he had a much better excuse than Regina, being soulless and all), and he STILL felt awful about what he had done. Holt clearly went way past the deep end by the end, but the show clearly still had sympathy for him, as well as for Angel. We knew about his struggles to be a good person, but to a person who's life he ruined? Does any of that matter? Having one of Regina's angry former victims be a bad guy could be an awesome storyline, and a way to explore her past and her possible redemption, like the Holt storyline was with Angel. 

 

I mean, maybe they could have done that with Greg, but NOPE, they decided to just focus on him being an evil asshole who deserves to get his shadow ripped out, never to be seen again. So much potential, gone.

[regularlyleaded]

To a certain extent, they did try the "villain with a gripe" setup. S2 Greg/Owen/Growen had a completely legitimate reason to want to see Regina locked up or dead (Regina tried to kidnap him as a child and when that didn't work murdered his father!). One of the problems I think the writers ran into with this scenario (aside from the character being poorly written) is they realized that, to a certain extent, Growen was right; there exists no good reason that Regina should be roaming around free as a bird and not being held accountable for the countless people that she's killed (and the same goes for Rumpel)! But the writers don't want to acknowledge the fact that Regina is an evil narcissistic sociopath. They don't see her as evil at all, instead they see her as the biggest victim of all. She's just "damaged" and "misguided". I mean, the writers play off Regina's atrocities (which include mass murder and child abuse) as "Pfft, how can she possibly be held accountable when there are so many victims she lost count! LOLZ! Come on, audience, once your murder count exceeds the number that you can count with your hands, it gets automatically reset back to zero, am I right?!" The writers have their heads so far up Regina's ass that the story they've built over the last 3 years is that Regina is an evil sociopath who feels absolutely no remorse about anything she's done, but who is nevertheless now a "beloved" member of the hierarchy "because reasons" and because of that she deserves all the love.
 
What I find really ugly and absolutely galling is that at this point the message this show is sending out is that Regina (and Rumpel) can kill whomever they please and that no one can seek any justice, let alone retribution, because wanting justice against someone who harmed you, well, that is Eeeeeevul. Bringing up their wrong-doings? That makes you an insensitive asshole who deserves no mercy. Calling out Regina or Rumpel for everything they've done, calling them "monsters"? Well, that makes you the monster. That is the disturbingly twisted morality that they are fervently lauding on OUAT.

Edited September 26, 2014 by regularlyleaded