S14.E08 : Byzantium

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, Ray Adverb said:

Yes.  I am pretty sure that was a misdirect.  Which makes me happy.  I am so done with Lucifer existing on this show.

Then who was being resurrected? My bet is that the Empty Keeper decided to take on Lucifer's appearance with the red eyes, otherwise why give it red eyes if it wasn't Lucifer?

[MysteryGuest]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Then who was being resurrected? My bet is that the Empty Keeper decided to take on Lucifer's appearance with the red eyes, otherwise why give it red eyes if it wasn't Lucifer?

The whole red-eyed, Terminator thing was just silly, IMO.  As to who it really was, I have no clue.  I'm hoping for the Keeper, but fully expecting it to be Lucifer.  None of that storyline makes sense anyway.

[ILoveReading]

I think it will be Lucifer.  I think its just the writers inability to actually connect episodes to each other.  This episode was focused on Jack's ressurection and the writers couldn't  have anything get in the way of that. 

[Ray Adverb]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Then who was being resurrected? My bet is that the Empty Keeper decided to take on Lucifer's appearance with the red eyes, otherwise why give it red eyes if it wasn't Lucifer?

Nobody was being resurrected.  That was The Empty waking up to take care of some business, head up to Heaven, and claim Jack.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Ray Adverb said:

Nobody was being resurrected.  That was The Empty waking up to take care of some business, head up to Heaven, and claim Jack.

Why did the Empty Keeper have redeyea though?

[Cambion]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why did the Empty Keeper have redeyea though?

To make everybody think it was Luci.  My hope is that the next time we see Nickifer he's a rancid puddle of angst on the floor somewhere because his prayer wasn't answered.  I think Mark Pelligrino rawks, but I'm really, really, over Nickifer after the last couple of his episodes.  (Would have been more interesting to see the Nick character solo for a bit, with no Luci.  going right back to Nickifer, a) too much like Repo Man, and b) I just can't even....  :P

 

[Ray Adverb]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Why did the Empty Keeper have redeye though?

For some dramatic effect (red eyes = evil) and also, like Cambion said, to further the misdirect.

Remember when Castiel woke up in The Empty?  He wasn't absorbed into the mass of blackness.  He was just lying prone on the ground, like he was taking a nap.  Then he stood up, whole body intact.  The Empty then manifested itself in his form.

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, Ray Adverb said:

For some dramatic effect (red eyes = evil) and also, like Cambion said, to further the misdirect.

Remember when Castiel woke up in The Empty?  He wasn't absorbed into the mass of blackness.  He was just lying prone on the ground, like he was taking a nap.  Then he stood up, whole body intact.  The Empty then manifested itself in his form.

I think it wasn't a misdirect myself. I think Lucifer rose and he's the one going after Cas.  The Empty Keeper seemed far more like Lucifer than anything else. JMHO. And mostly I say this because Buck Lemming have already said a few times they like writing for Lucifer more than other characters.

[ILoveReading]

I think the empty keeper and Lucifer are two different entities.  I think the Empty Keeper doesnt' know Lucifer is awake yet and they probably won't address it.  

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I think the empty keeper and Lucifer are two different entities.  I think the Empty Keeper doesnt' know Lucifer is awake yet and they probably won't address it.  

Oh that's a good theory.

[takalotti]

Here’s what really bugs me about the Jack-grieving. They focused on the wrong thing.

 

Once the writers decided to have Jack get sick, die, and come back, I'm guessing they saw the situation as "the boys have lost parents, parental figures, a sibling (each other), and peers. Rather than rehash the same grieving, let's go the 'losing a child' route like a bookend." So they focused on how young he was and how they all felt like his fathers.

 

I would have had a much better reaction to a "grieving someone the audience knows will be back soon" episode if they had instead focused on Jack's original role as "bringer of paradise."

 

Cas could have felt lost and confused. "I saw it. With such clarity. He would bring paradise. How can he do that if he's dead?" That could drive why they thought Jack was a special enough case to bring back.

Also "I died and was brought back from the Empty. I was so sure I was brought back for a purpose: protecting and helping Jack so he could bring paradise. But apparently that’s not my purpose. So why am I here? What do I do now?" 

 

It still would have been our main characters only being framed in reference to Jack, but to me it would have felt more authentic and thus more about their own character development.

 

I also feel like it would have worked better if whatever appropriate loss they felt when Jack died (regrets or whatever,  not "I’ve lost a son!" anguish) was what DROVE them to see/treat Jack more like a son when he came back.

Edited December 14, 2018 by takalotti

[Katy M]

26 minutes ago, takalotti said:

I would have had a much better reaction to a "grieving someone the audience knows will be back soon" episode if they had instead focused on Jack's original role as "bringer of paradise."

That would make sense for Cas, but I don't think Sam, or especially Dean, have ever seen him that way.  And, since he "lost" or temprorarily depleted his grace, that is really even a thing anymore, is it?

[takalotti]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

That would make sense for Cas, but I don't think Sam, or especially Dean, have ever seen him that way.  And, since he "lost" or temprorarily depleted his grace, that is really even a thing anymore, is it?

They don’t need to. They could even react badly to Cas seeing things that way ("That wasn’t real, Cas! It was just a trick!") and lash out at each other. That would still be a more realistic version of grief to me based on their real dynamic, not the manufactured fatherly relationships. Maybe Jack's death and Cas' points lead them to think they may have been wrong and SHOULD buy into Jack bringing paradise. Or simply seeing Cas broken and believing in Jack so hard has them helping Cas with bringing Jack back for Cas' sake.

 

I think it could still be a thing. No guarantees, but it seems like it had been put in there as a potential "how will this all end" clue. For all I know, Jack could be responsible for bringing paradise the same way Anakin is responsible for bringing balance to the Force.

[S Cook Productions]

I rewatched this one again today with the hubby. I like it. I’m a Cas girl anyway, but I really liked him in this ep. Also, I think it’s very telling how scared/nervous he looked around Naomi at the end, and he should be.  She even noticed it and had to tell him “relax.” Anyway, I think this was a good scene because Naomi is to Cas what Asmodeus was to Gabriel, and what Lucifer was to Sam. They should be nervous around them! Anyway, Naomi is one of those characters I love to dislike. She’s always creepily fascinating, and I enjoy the way the dynamic between her Cas is acted and portrayed. 

[millennium]

When did Sam and Dean become supporting characters?

I don't like Jack.   He reeks of Cousin Oliver, and when Cousin Oliver shows up on your doorstep, your show's in trouble.   Plus he's so sugary sweet that four out of five dentists recommend brushing after each episode.

I always have problems with this show and its depiction of heaven and Christian beliefs.  For example, no Jesus Christ, no Virgin Mary, etc.   No saints either.    St. Peter would have been the traditional choice of Heaven's gatekeeper; instead we get ... Anubis?   I did laugh out loud when Castiel explained Heaven's subcontracting Anubis, but only because it was so ludicrous.

[ahrtee]

7 minutes ago, millennium said:

I always have problems with this show and its depiction of heaven and Christian beliefs.  For example, no Jesus Christ, no Virgin Mary, etc.   No saints either.  

It's actually "Judeo-Christian" beliefs, meaning Old Testament, pre-Jesus.  TBH, if they bring in Jesus, I'm outta here.  

ETA:  I think a vocal part of the audience wouldn't appreciate Jesus or the saints being treated like jokes or fools, like Chuck or the archangels, and if they were treated reverently, it would be a whole different show (and one I wouldn't want to watch).  

Edited December 22, 2018 by ahrtee
clarification.

[millennium]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

It's actually "Judeo-Christian" beliefs, meaning Old Testament, pre-Jesus.  TBH, if they bring in Jesus, I'm outta here.  

ETA:  I think a vocal part of the audience wouldn't appreciate Jesus or the saints being treated like jokes or fools, like Chuck or the archangels, and if they were treated reverently, it would be a whole different show (and one I wouldn't want to watch).  

I had the Judeo-Christian distinction in mind but expressed it incompletely, so yeah.

I don't think they could bring Jesus in right now.  God's gone.  If God's gone, Jesus is with him, as is the Holy Spirit.  Three persons, one God.  They come as a package.

But everything you say in your ETA aligns with my suspicions about why Heaven on Supernatural is so compartmentalized.  It leaves the writers with a real conundrum.  The thing is, it begs credibility for Sam and Dean to be oblivious to the missing characters of Christian belief.   Right up there with the idiots on The Walking Dead not knowing the word "zombie."

[Pondlass1]

Dean and Sam don’t live in our world with our religions.   They’re in a parallel world alongside vampires, werewolves and the like. 

[ahrtee]

5 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Dean and Sam don’t live in our world with our religions.   They’re in a parallel world alongside vampires, werewolves and the like. 

According to the churches they've visited (and the pagan gods they've come across) they do have the same religions, as well as all the same myths and legends.  Maybe the difference is that in *our* world, things like vampires, werewolves, and religious figures *aren't* real. :)  

[FlickChick]

On 12/23/2018 at 12:06 AM, ahrtee said:

According to the churches they've visited (and the pagan gods they've come across) they do have the same religions, as well as all the same myths and legends.  Maybe the difference is that in *our* world, things like vampires, werewolves, and religious figures *aren't* real. :)  

Re: bolded. How do we know that's true. Most of the people they come into contact with didn't think they were real either. ;) LOL

[The Companion]

On 12/6/2018 at 8:19 PM, BoxManLocke said:

lol yeah, the stupidly quick and anti-climatic death of Jack kiiiiiinda gave away that he was going to be back fairly quickly.

 

Like you @Katy M, I wasn't bored. I thought it was utterly ridiculous, mind you. That's just how the show is most of the time now. Like the episode dealing with bringing someone back from the dead for the umpteenth time, like the bunker being completely empty again, like Sam screaming RESURRECTION minutes after Jack died peacefully as if he hadn't learned anything, like the solution to the brothers' problem being offered to them on a silver platter and neatly tied up into a little bow (throwaway character willing to sacrifice herself, the empty attacking and making saving Jack the only convenient choice, etc).

 

It was hard to drum up any dramatic tension for this reason. There was no question it was going to work.

On 12/6/2018 at 8:22 PM, Katy M said:

I've become convinced that when you die and come back, each time you lose a bit of the part of the brain that allows you to learn from past mistakes.  It's the only thing that makes any sense.  I would be down for the last couple of episodes about them getting that back and how that impacts the rest of their lives.  Which will be short, because they'll get killed and not bring each other back:)  JK.

 

I have been blaming it on the repeated head trauma. They probably have more days with a concussion than without. 🤕 

On 12/6/2018 at 8:25 PM, trudysmom said:

I like that the actress playing Lily actually seemed to have studied the original Lily, her mannerisms were much the same.  I liked the 'getting loaded' part with the 3 guys, just because I like seeing them smile and laugh.  Beyond that, this episode was a big ole snooze fest.  I just didn't care that Jack was dying, dead, not dead any more.   Lily got into heaven to see her daughter after all, so yay I guess.  When it ended I sighed and said I remember when this was a really good show. 

I mean it's best case scenario, but the concept of heaven in this show is so depressing and they drove that home with Jack, who lasted half a memory before going to find his mom. Even more horrifyingly, she seemed to have some concept of Earth time.

So enjoy reliving the same memories of your kid over and over, Lily.

 

On 12/6/2018 at 8:37 PM, BoxManLocke said:

 

"No I won't kill you right now, I'll do it after you've experienced more happiness". Huh... thanks ?

 

This made me laugh way too hard

On 12/6/2018 at 9:17 PM, ahrtee said:

From Appointment in Samarra:

DEAN: Well, is there any way that you could, uh, I don't know, hack the hell part off?

DEATH: Dean, Dean, Dean. What do you think the soul is? Some pie you can slice? The soul can be bludgeoned, tortured, but never broken. Not even by me.

It almost feels intentional at this point.

On 12/6/2018 at 10:15 PM, BoxManLocke said:

 

Everything about Jack was rushed after season 13's midseason finale.

This I very much agree with. They pushed through the storyline and I think the failure to develop the underlying relationship is what made the mourning ring false for so many. 

On 12/7/2018 at 4:35 PM, PAForrest said:

The fact that there was no dialog and the guys were clearly told to wing it only adds to the feeling of being taken out of the episode, and the scene being more along the lines of a BTS outtake. So yeah, I agree, that was all J2M and almost nothing to do with the characters most of the time. But, hey, obviously less for Meredith to have to write, 'cuz writing is hard, especially for this staff.

I mean, so much of the stuff they pump out is not great and could use another three edits, so maybe we should just have dialogue free drinking. 😆

In seriousness, I agree that the scene didn't work, especially when contrasted with Lily.

 

On 12/11/2018 at 1:34 AM, tennisgurl said:

Well, Jack is certainly a Winchester, he already died and came back in about twenty minutes!

. . . 

Honestly, the saddest part to me was Dean calling Mary, begging her to talk to him, while she apparently ignores his calls. I mean, damn Mary. Your son calls to tell you that the kid you supposedly care about is dead, he is clearly on the verge of tears, is begging you to call him back, saying how he wants to hear your voice, right after his surrogate son/brother died, and you just...never called back? Saw his name in your phone, and put it on silent to awkwardly hit on AU Bobby some more? Poor Dean, how much must it suck to know that he based his whole life around the memory of this woman he loved and idealized, who doesent actually give a crap about him. No wonder he wants so badly to be a perfect "dad" to Jack. 

 

Hee. 

I honestly can't understand why they wrote the Mary scene that way. It was so weird to have him leave the info by voicemail and to have her not pick up. Plus to not have her call him back. I just . . . why? That was awful. 

I understand that a lot of people didn't see the parent relationship. I think they did try to establish it with the heart to hearts and the fishing, etc. But the show once again gave us the bare outline of a story rather than the actual story. They shorthanded it and robbed the storyline of its emotional impact. 

[Katy M]

23 minutes ago, The Companion said:

I mean it's best case scenario, but the concept of heaven in this show is so depressing and they drove that home with Jack, who lasted half a memory before going to find his mom. Even more horrifyingly, she seemed to have some concept of Earth time.

So enjoy reliving the same memories of your kid over and over, Lily.

And that's what makes this show so frustrating.  What exactly are S&D fighting for?  No matter how many people they save, and no matter how many times they bring each other back from the dead, everybody is going to die eventually?  And all there is to look forward to is an eternity of the same memories over and over?  What's the point?

[ahrtee]

50 minutes ago, Katy M said:

And that's what makes this show so frustrating.  What exactly are S&D fighting for?  No matter how many people they save, and no matter how many times they bring each other back from the dead, everybody is going to die eventually?  And all there is to look forward to is an eternity of the same memories over and over?  What's the point?

OTOH, Bobby's heaven was old him sitting and reading, and not young and with Karen? Or even playing ball with young Sam and Dean?  

The problem I have is that they can't seem to remember their own canon from one episode to the next.  And besides, no one actually dies--not even monsters, angels or demons.  They just go someplace else where they can't get back to earth...unless the plot wants them to.  

[The Companion]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

And that's what makes this show so frustrating.  What exactly are S&D fighting for?  No matter how many people they save, and no matter how many times they bring each other back from the dead, everybody is going to die eventually?  And all there is to look forward to is an eternity of the same memories over and over?  What's the point?

Yep. It's pretty hard to get excited about reliving the same thing over and over again. The first few times? Sure. Maybe. But eventually it would be absolute torture.

I did like the heaven hack by Ash. Allowing people to visit their versions of heaven is a lot more palatable. 

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

OTOH, Bobby's heaven was old him sitting and reading, and not young and with Karen? Or even playing ball with young Sam and Dean?  

The problem I have is that they can't seem to remember their own canon from one episode to the next.  And besides, no one actually dies--not even monsters, angels or demons.  They just go someplace else where they can't get back to earth...unless the plot wants them to.  

And I have to assume he was reading something he had already read, right? It's so depressing.

[Katy M]

14 minutes ago, The Companion said:

And I have to assume he was reading something he had already read, right? It's so depressing.

When I was a kid, I wrote a short story and when you died you got to read every book ever written.  Actually, that was a second choice, if the first didn't work out, but I'm a bit fuzzy on what that was.  I think maybe you got a do over on your life or something.  I was 12.  I'm sure it wasn't Pulitzer worthy.

[gonzosgirrl]

I don't think you are actually supposed to be aware that you're reliving the same experience(s) ad infinitum. Not that that takes away any of the suckage of the writing on the show, just sayin'.  It wasn't til Bobby woke up all the other Bobbys that the trouble started.

[ahrtee]

23 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think you are actually supposed to be aware that you're reliving the same experience(s) ad infinitum. Not that that takes away any of the suckage of the writing on the show, just sayin'.  It wasn't til Bobby woke up all the other Bobbys that the trouble started.

I was just saying that you'd think you'd be reliving your happiest memories.  Pamela's was one long rock concert.  Mary got her kids (and in her later heaven she had John there, too).  So isn't it sad that Bobby's happiest memory is being a grumpy old man reading alone?  

[Katy M]

14 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I was just saying that you'd think you'd be reliving your happiest memories.  Pamela's was one long rock concert.  Mary got her kids (and in her later heaven she had John there, too).  So isn't it sad that Bobby's happiest memory is being a grumpy old man reading alone?  

Sam and Dean's memories changed up, though.  So, maybe he was just having some downtime between eating Karen's pies and hunting with the boys and whatever all else he was doing.

[ahrtee]

58 minutes ago, Katy M said:

When I was a kid, I wrote a short story and when you died you got to read every book ever written.  Actually, that was a second choice, if the first didn't work out, but I'm a bit fuzzy on what that was.  I think maybe you got a do over on your life or something.  I was 12.  I'm sure it wasn't Pulitzer worthy.

As one who spent a lot of time reading "slush" manuscripts at a publishing house for my first job, and as a librarian for my last job, I'd say reading every book ever written would be more hell than heaven.   😊

And isn't that what Metatron had tried to do?  (And probably the reason he decided to write his own masterpiece...)  

 

Edited May 26, 2020 by ahrtee

[The Companion]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think you are actually supposed to be aware that you're reliving the same experience(s) ad infinitum. Not that that takes away any of the suckage of the writing on the show, just sayin'.  It wasn't til Bobby woke up all the other Bobbys that the trouble started.

Maybe not, but I think everyone we have seen has had or gained some level of awareness (except maybe Mary as she described her experience).